Why Kailasa, Bandar Log, and Patala NEVER WIN
 

Since some people like being deliberately obtuse, I have decided to be clear.

The totally useless PD of these nations is why none of them have ever registered a single win in multi-player. The mages change, and troops are, of course, replacable, but none of these races has ever registered a win. NOT ONCE. Why?

Because for 230 gold, or less, you can create an "invincible raiding force" that will defeat any PD below 20. After 20 the one Bandar monkey per point makes things mildly more difficult, but not much. You'll probably need 10-20 more gold in archers per point to route all the little monkeys which will route the bandar(you don't ever have to fight the bandar, you just have to make sure they route quickly). That's it. Raid the hell out of them. Easy.

For reference, this is the pathetic Ape PD per point:
Some Markata "soldiers"(Morale 7, Melee Damage 8, yes 8, 0 protection, 5 hitpoints)
Some Markata "archers"(Morale 7, Bow Damage 6, yes 6, 0 protection, 5 hitpoints)
1/2 Per Point(YES THAT'S ONE EVERY OTHER POINT) Atavi "Soldier"(Morale 8, Protection 1)
1/2 Per Point(YES, AGAIN, THAT'S ONE EVERY OTHER POINT!) Atavi "Archer"(Morale 8, Protection 1)

I'm just wondering if it's intentional that PD prevent the monkeys, in any age, from winning. Ever.

Also, if you will notice, KissBlade, the only dedicated Patala Player, has built his entire nation around anti-raiding power. That is, he gets the Vampire Queen. This is the correct thing for KissBlade to do.

HOWEVER, IT IS PATHETIC THAT THE ENTIRE PRETENDER DESIGN BE DETERMINED BY WEAK PD.

Re: Why Kailasa, Bandar Log, and Patala NEVER WIN
 

I would like to emphasize that the Markata each count as much as the Atavi and the Bandar towards the 75% lost/routes and everyone routes rule. I would also like people to consider that the Markata have a morale of 7. With Dominion and "full strength" bonus that gives them an effective morale of 7 + 1 + 5 = 13. That means they have a 46% chance of routing on their first morale check.

When does their first morale check occur? Well, they have Protection 0, and 5 hitpoints. The Markata recieve their first morale check the first time they are hit with arrow fire, and every time after.

Because of their greater numbers, once the markata route the 75% rule is either achieved, or very close to achieved, and everyone routes. Game over.

I suspect if you played games you could beat 20 PD with 130 gold. If you had some tough Indy archers. However, I don't care to check, because it is obvious that a raiding group of LESS GOLD THAN THE PD COST can defeat the PD PROBABLY WITHOUT CASUALITIES.

Re: Why Kailasa, Bandar Log, and Patala NEVER WIN
 

The monkey PD is can one of the few that defeat a Black Hawk attack with only an investment of 1 gold.

The problem that most people have is that they don't realize that the monkeys get the best summons in the game. If you put a bunch of Gandarvas on the field with a good regen and maybe an Earth bless backed up by some of the Protection buffing spells you get(Wooden Warriors, Iron Warriors, Legions of Steel) and the MR buffs, and even the crazy buffs(ones that grant Luck, Etherealsness, or other powers), and you are unstoppable.

Combine basic magic with wicked troops, and you get armies that don't take losses from fights with armies. Only mages are to be feared, and even they don't do much.

Re: Why Kailasa, Bandar Log, and Patala NEVER WIN
 

I'm no monkey or MP expert, but my understanding is PD is nothing more than a speed bump by mid game anyway. Sure it means you can use cheaper raiders, but those cheap raiding forces can be countered by not much more expensive patrols.
Buy a few archers or infantry to back them up.

How is the VQ an anti-raiding strategy. The VQ is a defensive strategy, sure, but I'll send 5 cheap raiders and she can kill one or take back one province a turn. That's not a plan...

In my last mp game against Bandar Log, they were definitely way ahead. Then the player had to drop and the game dissolved, so there was no official winner. I was Jotunheim and I could take any province I wanted, most only had 1 PD anyway. Then he'd annihilate and enslave whatever I'd sent.

It's an annoyance to have lousy PD. Particularly being vulnerable to cheap castings like Call of the Winds/Wild. But the sacreds, sacred summons and astral power can make up for it.

By late game, PD is unimportant. Casual thugs/raiders will take any reasonable PD untouched and a heavy PD investment will be bypassed or hit with a real army and die.

Re: Why Kailasa, Bandar Log, and Patala NEVER WIN
 

That's probably why none of these three nations has ever registered a win in multi-player.

You've made it very clear to me that being completely helpless before raiders is no real problem so long as you invest in defense as much as they invest in offense. And don't mind your provinces being continously overtaxed and captured.

But hey, by Late Game, none of this matters. Of course, gold doesn't really matter in Late Game either. So, do you take 3 Disorder and 3 Luck every game? Since Gold doesn't matter in Late Game, that seems like a strategy For The Win. You have an even bigger edge because all those idiots with multiple wins in MP are taking order! They are handicapping themselves by hundreds of points! You'll clean their clocks good!

Re: Why Kailasa, Bandar Log, and Patala NEVER WIN
 

Bandar Log is a fairly good nation. The Markatas are okay chaff, and you can always mind hunt or teleport something nasty onto raiders.

Re: Why Kailasa, Bandar Log, and Patala NEVER WIN
 

Your problem is that your aren't thinking on the same scale as I am. A mage comes from a castle with a lab. Probably a temple to. He probably costs more than 100 gold. The infrastructure cost is 1700 Gold, at least, and some serious money for the troops.

My "defeat any monkey PD" raiding force is built in a normal Indie province without castle, lab, or temple. It costs less than 200 gold for the whole thing, including commander, and probably can be built using the resources of the province in two turns. The infrastructure required is 0 Gold. 0 Gold. Let that sink in. 0 Gold. The total troop cost is under 200 gold. That is the cost of the single mage you have built. Just him. That's it. I can construct probably 11 of these raiding forces by the time you have your infrastructure set up and your first force built.

Obviously you can spam these raiding forces, quick and easy. If they hit 20 PD(cost 200 gold), they defeat it. Your opponent loses tax income for at least one turn, and you get it, I believe? That's 100 gold right there. Very nearly paying for the raiding force. By itself. Of course, you are also forcing your enemy to respond to your annoying attacks.

Re: Why Kailasa, Bandar Log, and Patala NEVER WIN
 

I would like to emphasize that these forces are not "stealth" in any way and can very easily have an Astral Mage lying around. However, I wouldn't bother with that. Mind Hunt forces me, sob, to add another commander to the force. Total cost:230 gold. But if Bandar Log wants to use 4 astral pearls and 2 mage-turns, I'm sorry, 2 BOOSTED Mage-Turns in order to kill 230 gold, then I think he should. Or does it take 3 castings to kill two commanders? Well then, 6 Astral Pearls. I think that's great. Of course, if I get tired of this, I'll develop the nasty habit of teleporting high Astral Mages onto some raiding groups, thus hopefully feebleminding several extremely expensive mages.

Re: Why Kailasa, Bandar Log, and Patala NEVER WIN
 

One solution might be to keep him so busy responding to YOUR attacks and YOUR raids that he does not have the time to do this.

Oh. And people really should have more than one fort and a lab before this happens. Dont wait for the raiding forces to start coming BEFORE you invest in defense. Prepare for it ahead of time. Make your border provinces and chokepoints MORE than 20 PD by whatever amount you need to STOP such attacks.

If you wait till 11 raiding forces are coming in before you begin to make preperations to stop such attack dont cry cause really, its not the games fault you suck http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...ies/tongue.gif

Re: Why Kailasa, Bandar Log, and Patala NEVER WIN
 

Nonsense. I never said gold doesn't matter. I never said lousy PD didn't suck. I just said the monkeys have some other advantages that can make up for it.
So you have to be more active on defense than some others, who can hide behind walls of PD.

But what do I know? They are completely useless nations and I've been trounced by them, so I must really suck anyway.
Listen to K, he's much better with them than I am. They probably just don't fit my playing style. Maybe they're not right for yours either?


There are ~30 nations listed in the Victorious Nations thread out of 60+. 3 nations not appearing is not statistically meaningful.
Lanka has won. Do they have the same PD?

Re: Why Kailasa, Bandar Log, and Patala NEVER WIN
 

If you have astral you can mind hunt the raiding forces. Also pd is not all, several nations has as bad pd (like the giants) and still manage to score wins in larger mp games.

I would rate the ape nations as average or slightly below average in total. Several nations has alot worse deal (Early age: marvereni, Middle age: ulm, late age: Abysia just to mention a few).

Re: Why Kailasa, Bandar Log, and Patala NEVER WIN
 

Another thing I think you forget is that an enemy investing in any amount of raiding forces (11 is 2200 gold total, NOT cheap) is investing in a one trick poney. They might be good for raiding but really what else use do they have? Any real army will roll over them.

Second point. A fort and lab and mages all have many uses outside of stopping a raiding force bonanza. After said raiding forces are stopped or at least controlled, you can turn to more offensive uses immediately. Its a much more quality investment.

Re: Why Kailasa, Bandar Log, and Patala NEVER WIN
 

And yet they never win. In any age.

Re: Why Kailasa, Bandar Log, and Patala NEVER WIN
 

What nations have won long term games is a pretty rough guide of the best nations. Considering _all_ the nations are roughly in the 0-3 wins range, a particular nation having 0 instead of the average is easily a statistical anomaly. And further, the winners are generally much more decided by player's skill then nation power (and I would not assume the best players pick the best nations- different people find different nations fun, and mot people get tired of playing the same set of nations).

Also, Jotunhiem is generally regarded as having some of the weakest PD, and has plenty of wins.

Re: Why Kailasa, Bandar Log, and Patala NEVER WIN
 

I am curious, and don't have the game in front of me. Does Lanka use the same PD?

Re: Why Kailasa, Bandar Log, and Patala NEVER WIN
 

This is stupid. By Lord Bob's argument, a number of nations are worthless, yet I've seen machaka and agartha be powerhouses.

pd strength isn't why nations win or lose.

Re: Why Kailasa, Bandar Log, and Patala NEVER WIN
 

If the Bandar Log player is going for a mind hunt strategy, they're probably going to have booster items lying about anyway. Risking high level astral mages to support a cheap-o incursion strategy strikes me as foolhardy.

In any case, Bandar Log's troops all have move-2 and forest survival, so they're going to be able to move swifty to counter improvised incursions. And don't forget the recruitable-anywhere sacreds.

Re: Why Kailasa, Bandar Log, and Patala NEVER WIN
 

I dont think that weak PD is something that counts in MP so the PD of the monkeys has nothing to do with their weakness.
btw. Lanka has the same PD and is not considered weak.

The biggest problem with kailasa is that they are very suspectible to arrows, they have no armor and only bucklers on the basic sacreds, so your powerful armies can easily be shot to peaces by very cheap archers.

But if you survive into the mid game, you can summon gandharvas, and they are about the strongest troop in the game. Sacred, heavy armoured, awe and only 18 pearls for 6 of them.

Also you can summon Kinnaras that are able to cast arrow fend, and then even your sacreds that are recruitable everywhere become useful again.

You have also a national spell that gives all your sacreds quikness.

Then you have some minor benefits like S3 and H3 mages that you can summon and the rudra that has d3f3a3 and makes a very nice SC chassis.

And to the last all your summons are astral based and you have national mages that are able to forge clams, so if you survive the beginning, kailasa will become very strong.

I played them twice in MPs, and in both i was not very succesful.
In one i decided to invade vanheim as he had almost no troops but in the province i invaded i was greeted by 3 E5 bladewind spammers (Worthy Heroes can suck sometimes), and took heavy losses that caused sauromantia to invade me, and i was not able to get back on my feet.
In the other one i started between Nifelheim, Lanka and Helheim and this is not very funny.

Kailasa is for a nation that starts with a dual bless very weak in the beginning, but in the middle game (after conjuration, thraumathurgy and enchantment up to lv 6) they can field f9s9 blessed prot17 troops that have awe +1 and quickness and the basic unarmoured troops have arrow fend and die not so easily either. (w9s9 bless might be better earlyer, but as it does not seem that the quickness stacks, f9s9 should be better after you can cast celestial music).

I think the next EA game that i have time to play, i will try to win with kailasa again.

Re: Why Kailasa, Bandar Log, and Patala NEVER WIN
 

In my experience playing a MP game with Bandar Log, the main points of pain for Bandar Log are:

1. Crappy forts. Mostly fortified cities. Sometimes you want these, mostly you want something cheap.

2. Crappy priests. Combined with the above, it blunts the recruitable-everywhere-sacred edge.

3. Crappy searching. Bandar Log is a real gem-hog, with its summons and gem-heavy battlemagic. But the Rishis only have map-move 1, and remote searching spells may accentuate your gem shortage if you're unlucky.

Re: Why Kailasa, Bandar Log, and Patala NEVER WIN
 

Is this some sort of running gag which I'm missing out on? My irony sensors are a bit perturbed at the moment.

If you honestly think that the PD strength makes that much of a difference then I would think that you are a MP newbie. By your reasoning, the Jotun giants would have to automatically win every game (zOMG GIANT PD!). If you'd actually engage in MP games you'd find out that players don't rely on PD that much, the more sophisticated players usually don't get any more than 1 PD. Because PD cannot be scripted, because PD becomes useless as soon as the nations get their magics/SCs in gear, and because the money you put into heavy PD is generally of better use elsewhere (buying more mages, for example). Caelum's PD impales themselves on the enemies' weapons as soon as they have the chance, BTW.

There is a difference in PD, this is done deliberately, and it can lead to different playstyles, that's the whole idea.

I have to admit that when I looked at the apes for the first time I was a little underwhelmed, too, but if you'd even bother to play with them you'd find out that they are awesome. Their national summons are really nice. Patala actually has some of the most awesome mages, especially for LA. As for the nations not winning any MP games that you know of, I wiped the floor with my opponents as Patala in a recent MP game of mine. Ask them if they felt like the apes were lacking and should be made stronger, if you want.

Re: Why Kailasa, Bandar Log, and Patala NEVER WIN
 

Lanka is a blood nation. They can also reanimate undead. While it is true that you need a 90 gold mage on the scene to keep your army of dead operational, it is also true that the 90 gold mage is bloodhunting in that province and has to be there anyway. He needs bodyguards. A bunch of Londead or other summons should do just fine. This won't stop a 200 gold raiding force, it will destroy it. Utterly, while laughing hysterically. Since bloodhunting is required for Lanka to win, Lanka has large amounts of such "PD-Enhanced" provinces quickly.

Re: Why Kailasa, Bandar Log, and Patala NEVER WIN
 

I'm sorry, you can only attack a province you are adjacent to. So if by "swiftly", you mean two turns, yes. And the high level astral mage leaves the next turn, using a "move into friendly territory" move. Or he can pop a Returning if for some bizarre reason I decide to do that. Of course, the bandar and teleport mages onto him..... which won't stop the returning though... Now we are getting quite expensive, eh? All for a little 200 gold raiding force.

Re: Why Kailasa, Bandar Log, and Patala NEVER WIN
 

For some reason you only seem to read and respond to some of the points made in respons to you. First of all as many has pointed out pd is not used very much in mp games among good players, simply because a mobile army is a better buy in most cases.

Also if you checked out some of the nations that has scored several wins (like EA caelum) you will find that those nations has abysmal pd as well and still managed to win. Finally what QM said is very true - there is just to few games played in comparison to the number of available nations in the game to start drawing some statistical conclusions at this point. The monkey nations has some shortcomings (where low pd is just one), but the nations is not as bad as you seem to think.

Re: Why Kailasa, Bandar Log, and Patala NEVER WIN
 

Lanka has maintenance free demons and undead as PD. Led around by their bloodhunting priests. Attempts to raid them with "200 gold force" stops when you hit the blood hunters and they kill you instantly.

Re: Why Kailasa, Bandar Log, and Patala NEVER WIN
 

Again, nonsense. Your scouts tell you where the bloodhunters are, if you don't just guess by raiding the farms and other high income provinces where no one blood hunts.

Then you send real forces after the bloodhunters. Raiding weak provinces is fine, but trashing your enemies blood income is a real prize.

Re: Why Kailasa, Bandar Log, and Patala NEVER WIN
 

To be short, blunt, and to the point:

You have no basis at all for extrapolating from the given data an unequivocal statement on _anything_. Having just had a test where I was required to calculate confidence intervals for several questions, I can tell you that you have no idea how unsupported your claim is.

Your statement is not supported by the evidence. If you made a statement like, "The Ape nations have not won YET because people haven't figured out a way to compensate for their PD being unable to stop raiders," you might get a bit more agreement.

You are making an obviously flawed argument from the subject line on. I would suggest a basic course in statistics before you try to make this or similar claims.

Re: Why Kailasa, Bandar Log, and Patala NEVER WIN
 

PD serves one purpose, and one purpose alone. It stops you from having to chase mageless, indie, mini-armies all around your empire. That is the only purpose for which it exists. The giants and Man's PD is QUITE CAPABLE of defeating a 200 gold raiding force at 20.

This is what is going to happen to the "awesome" 17 Indie Archer/1 Indie Commander raiding force against the "lousy" Giant PD. The Giants 2 commanders and 10 Giant Militia are going to take arrow fire and then reach the archers. They are then going to swing. At which point many, many archers will die. The Indie Archers with a morale of 7(-1 Dominion Penalty) are then probably going to route. At that point the giants will run them down and kill every one of them. The Commander will probably get away.

The Giant PD really sucks.

Oh yeah, EA Caleum is going to be PAWNED! By them 17 Indie Archers. They got some fliers, and you see, them fliers going to "stupidly charge" them archers and route them before the archers fire one shot. Them EA Caleum PD is OWNED by them Archers. COMPLETE PAWNAGE!

There is bad, and then there is hidiously ridiclious.

I can't even believe people are talking about Man PD. I have used 65 Man PD, backed by research mages and some longbowman and castle guards to repel 2 waves of 400 man armies backed by multiple mages from EA Ermor in the multiplayer game where I took over a messed up MA Man on some turn. MA Man PD is hidiously more powerfull than Ape PD. It is just plain mighty after 20.

Re: Why Kailasa, Bandar Log, and Patala NEVER WIN
 

I think this only slows down early expansion, as the 9hp unarmored priests just like to be shot with an arrow and rout everything. But later you can either recruit siddhas for your bigger armies or just recruit enough indy priests to bless your armies.

Why dont you just get your own 200 gold force out if indys instead of buying 20 PD for the same price, so you have at least a 50% chance in winning.

Re: Why Kailasa, Bandar Log, and Patala NEVER WIN
 

Let's try again, and then I think I'll just stop responding to this: PD can prevent loss of your provinces by random, unforeseen attacks. What you fail to notice, maybe by playing too much against the AI where there is no possibility to engage in diplomacy, is that an unforeseen attack on a province means a declaration of war. You opponent will then react to that attack and kill you.

I wouldn't think that somebody randomly attacks another just because it'd be a steal because the PD is bad. You can't "shop around" for the easiest provinces to conquer because they're not that well defended. "Oops, sorry, but your defense in there was just so low, I *had* to take that province." No, attacking another player and engaging in war is a rational decision based on a number of things, but if somebody decides to wage war against you, he certainly won't be stopped because your PD is a little stronger or weaker.

Re: Why Kailasa, Bandar Log, and Patala NEVER WIN
 

So Lanka can be "freely raided" except for the multiple road blocks that completely destroy such raids. These roadblocks cost nothing as they consist of priest that MUST be there, and maintenance free undead. Or maybe demons for some reason.

Multiple, Lanka Player Placed, Free, raid blockers seems to be quite a difference between them and the other Ape Nations. Also, since blood summons cost no gold to maintain, "Garrisoning" is a perfectly viable plan. And, of course, Lanka is a blood nation and the others aren't.

Re: Why Kailasa, Bandar Log, and Patala NEVER WIN
 

Care to respond to the fact that you have no basis for your assertion, considering the lack of data?

Or do you just want to rant some more?

Re: Why Kailasa, Bandar Log, and Patala NEVER WIN
 

Yup, I guess I'll stop arguing at this point.

Re: Why Kailasa, Bandar Log, and Patala NEVER WIN
 

I assume a state of war exists. Let's take this nasty raiding and jazz it up some. My raider, after taking a province, guesses that another adjacent province won't have an army there next turn. Let's say he has a 50% chance of being right. I also assume the province I took has a 400 gold monkey force right adjacent to it, ready to take that province back. Let's note that the 400 gold force is twice the cost of mine, and I just tied it up for a turn.

So, I get 35 gold for the turn I own province 1, my enemy loses 50 gold because I took the province from him. My raiding force has a 50 percent chance of doing this again, and just to keep things simple, a 50% chance of dying while inflicting no casualities at all. That means the net loss gain of this force is 127.5 gold(plus the 400 gold force I tied up). But I decide to be a big meanie.

So, as LA T'ien Ch'i, I buy 15 PD at a cost of 112 gold. This PD has a net value of 600 gold and pastes the 400 gold monkey army. And I owned the province for another round, and my opponent didn't. Up another 50 gold, him down another 50 gold. That's another 100 gold. So whats the total loss gain?

127.5+400+100=627.5 gold. YEAH!
My investment=312 gold.

Ok. That worked pretty good. But it only worked because 200 gold can beat monkey PD. No other PD is that weak.

Re: Why Kailasa, Bandar Log, and Patala NEVER WIN
 

I will say the units of PD are more important for larger maps of 400+ size. Personally for multiplayer with large maps I avoid nations with weak PD... I lost a province to a simple 'call of the winds' despite the 15PD for Machaka.

A nice feature included within DOM_4 would allow nations ways of upgrading existing province defense. I haven't given much thought for exact mechanics, but ideally players with the most provinces should have a higher upkeep for these upgrades thus struggling players can put up a stronger fight as they start losing. Not sure if the upkeep should be gems or gold or stationed commanders or a combintation or something else.
*perhaps increasing upkeep as provinces are further from the capital... whatever upkeep combination is decided. *
No talk of DOM_4 in the future yet, but it's in my prayers. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Re: Why Kailasa, Bandar Log, and Patala NEVER WIN
 

I have used PDs of 125, as it is fun to look the AI to waste its troops against it. Offcourse it is no sane strategy for MP but that is something other.

But please dont stop what might become a very nice flamewar http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...es/biggrin.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...es/biggrin.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...es/biggrin.gif

Re: Why Kailasa, Bandar Log, and Patala NEVER WIN
 

And then I put them in every province and pay maintenace every turn. And then they die to a slightly more powerfull force. PD, in order to be effective, has to be CHEAPER THAN THE RAIDING FORCE THAT CAN BEAT IT.

Re: Why Kailasa, Bandar Log, and Patala NEVER WIN
 

I took over another players game, and only had the power to hold onto the capital. It is now 15 turns later, and I have killed over 3500 gold in various nations that have attempted to eliminate me. This is MP. Ha. Ha.

Re: Why Kailasa, Bandar Log, and Patala NEVER WIN
 

Those aren't roadblocks. Those are targets. Unless you've built forts or strong garrisons.

Even demonic/undead garrisons have opportunity costs. They aren't counterattacking/raiding your enemy. The mage is summoning not bloodhunting, etc etc.

And the other monkey nations have cheap priests for blessing and upkeep-free sacred summons right? If you really wanted to stop raiders, a couple of those in each province will stop your "200 gp force" dead.

Re: Why Kailasa, Bandar Log, and Patala NEVER WIN
 

Let a thug wipe out your PD. I'm willing to bet whilst the little monkeys count for one towards the rout chance like a Bandar, they'll also count for one when you slap vengeance of the dead on the thug massacring the little fellas.

Re: Why Kailasa, Bandar Log, and Patala NEVER WIN
 

I took over another player and was going to lose anyway.

The point was to hold unto my capital and kill as many poor fools who try to take it as possible. Total losses currently exceed 3500 gold from various nations.

And I even offered to pay some of them not to attack me. They really should have taken the money. Yomi did, and he got a free castle and lab.

Re: Why Kailasa, Bandar Log, and Patala NEVER WIN
 

Aren't you sure it was OVER 9000!!http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/eek.gif!!http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/eek.gif!?

http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

Re: Why Kailasa, Bandar Log, and Patala NEVER WIN
 

So you are now comparing priest and gem summons with spending 200 gold(whenever you want, the turn before the attack is just fine) for maintenance PD? Are we even having this discussion?

Re: Why Kailasa, Bandar Log, and Patala NEVER WIN
 

There is only one way to settle this argument: Lord Bob plays the nation of his choice vs. a monkey nation, mano a mano.

Re: Why Kailasa, Bandar Log, and Patala NEVER WIN
 

I have killed over 250 men, including 18 lava men, also have killed 90 longdead(I know it's not important), a prophet, 2 mages from abysia, and something like 6 mages from EA Ermor. Not sure what the mages cost. MA MAN's capital has become a Roach Motel. Serious Combat Magic is being to come out though. So I think my fun is nearly over.

Re: Why Kailasa, Bandar Log, and Patala NEVER WIN
 

I do not wish to get personal in any way here, but it seems you just joined a few month ago and you aren't listed as the winner of any mp games. How much testing have you done with the monkey nations really ? I don't mean single player game here, but mp games.

Really when you evaluate a nation you cannot just pick 1 thing about them and say that the nation is bad, you really want to look at several aspects first.

Re: Why Kailasa, Bandar Log, and Patala NEVER WIN
 

Telestic Animations should help your dominion, hopefully you have an astral mage to cast antimagic... twist of fate might also extend your life for the province.
Before they storm the castle have someone in the back with lots of life holding a staff of storms... this will stop most flyers and you can hold them back at the gate longer.

Don't fight for death and glory... fight for ROHAN and let the horn of Mans Helm be heard one last time !

Re: Why Kailasa, Bandar Log, and Patala NEVER WIN
 

I have no idea what it is about Dominions that causes the masses to freak out when someone says X is not correctly balanced. But for some reason people always come out with some kooky theory as to why it is balanced correctly.

Everyone gets it: who wins in multiplayer is usually dominated by diplomacy, and perhaps starting location.

Everyone also gets: Dominions is a very complex game with a vast number of tactical and strategic options.

However, the above two being true does not mean that Lord Bob is incorrect. As a matter of fact he is correct in that monkey PD is comically bad.

Re: Why Kailasa, Bandar Log, and Patala NEVER WIN
 

But Lord Bobs statement was not that monkey PD is bad(which most players seem to agree on) - but that the poor PD makes them poor nations and causes them to never win.

Re: Why Kailasa, Bandar Log, and Patala NEVER WIN
 

What he's saying is stonger than that: he's saying that weak PD is why these nations can't win.

Re: Why Kailasa, Bandar Log, and Patala NEVER WIN
 

And what does this have to do with MP? Hmm? 1 on 1 Rush Games. The Measure Of A Nation. That said, why not. I'll play MA Man. No Bless at all. Sure. Bandar Log guy can do whatever he wants.