Basic Tech Mod Info
 

Status files for the basic tech mod are here (changes) and here (will be added).

The biggest changes so far are in Armor. First, Armor tech has been expanded to 15 levels. Second, Stealth, Scattering, and Ablative Armor are now set up in a grid research, similar to the missile/warhead idea posted in the earlier thread.

It works like this: Researching higher Armor tech (in 3 level increments) gives you stronger armor in all types. Researching higher Stealth tech gives you stealthier armor with slightly higher defense bonuses. Scattering Armor has been renamed to Reflective Armor and provides higher defensive bonuses when researched. Researching Ablative Armor gives you a better structure/tonnage ratio. There are 10 levels each of Stealth and Reflective Armor techs, and 3 levels of Ablative Armor tech. There are 5 breakpoints in Armor tech for stronger armor.

A component named Stealth Armor II (8) has level 8 cloaking and second-tier armor (100kt in this case). It requires Armor 4 and Stealth 8. Reflective Armor III (4) has third-tier armor (160kt) and a 40% defensive bonus. Ablative Armor II (2) has a structure/tonnage ratio of 4.67, while Ablative Armor IV (1) has a ratio of 5.25. This grid setup creates a large number of potential paths to full tech for a given area.

Heading out for now; hopefully much more tomorrow!

------------------
"The Unpronounceable" Krsqk

Re: Basic Tech Mod Info
 

Phoenix,

(moving our discussion from the other thread)

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>(like solar panels but doesn't need a star, if possible)
Not possible without a code change.
-You can fudge it. Make emergancy resupply components..that don't destroy themselves on use. It'd give the AI fits though. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> You know, this just might work. We kicked the idea around a long time ago for a component that would generate a limited amount of supplies each turn, but be unlimited in duration, like a Quantum reactor should be. This idea has has merit. (Where were you six months ago? http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/ima...ons/icon12.gif ) The only problem I see is that the emergency resupply ability has to be activated, it is not automatic. Because of that, they can't be used in fleets, only in individual ships. But it would make a nice idea for a long range scout or a colony ship though. Call it a ram scoop or a gas giant skimmer. Both ideas are plausible.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>sorry, component specific mines are another good idea that can't be done currently
This would be because of :Weapon Type := Warhead: right? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Actually the problem is way mine damage is calculated (non-combat mode) versus the way weapon damage is calculated (combat mode). Is has been tried and it did not work.Check it out.
It is possible we just missed something back then. It might be worth trying again. But I am pretty sure this would require a code change.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>What I'd objecting to about the smart bombs is that you instantly know where the facility is, and can kill it in one shot, as I understand it. Same idea as the quantum (chesse) but less impossible. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Your first point I don't agree with. Combat is not instantaneous. And it shouldn't be that difficult to figure out which facility is the space yard, and which facility is the resupply depot from orbit. Heck we can read license plates now. As far as destroying it in one shot, eh... Maybe a nuke would do it? Even so I can maybe agree that facilities should take damage instead of being destroyed. They are BIG afterall. Maybe the smart bomb incapacitates the resupply depot for a month, instead of forcing them to rebuild it, which takes three. Or it reduces the space yards construction capacity for a while. But unfortunalty we don't have that ability now. All combat damage that does not completey destroy a facility gets erased at the end of the combat round. Again we are talking about differences in scale, not actual new techs and processes we would have to discover. Actually though, of all the things we can do in SEIV, the smart bomb is probably the one we are closest to being able to accomplish today.


Geoschmo

[This message has been edited by geoschmo (edited 18 July 2001).]

Re: Basic Tech Mod Info
 

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Actually the problem is way mine damage is calculated (non-combat mode) versus the way weapon damage is calculated (combat mode). Is has been tried and it did not work.Check it out.
It is possible we just missed something back then. It might be worth trying again. But I am pretty sure this would require a code change.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Uhm. no. Check out P&N v2.0
The Ion/Tachyon/NullSpace mines are really cool.
I haven't tried the Quad2Shields ramming warheads yet, but they should work too.
I was concerned about the ion mines not being destroyed on detonation (since they have no engines & their damage type was engines only), but the game kills each one when they attack.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Ablative Armor II (2) has a structure/tonnage ratio of 4.67, while Ablative Armor IV (1) has a ratio of 5.25. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>That stuff can't be anything like my original Ablative armor!
Since you have fractional S/T ratios, the armor is not 1kT in size. And the 5 S/T ratio is pretty low.

There were two things the made the armor what it was:
1) 1kT size. Thus, if you get hurt, you're out of the war for a long time.
2) very high HP/kT (8-15). This way, it provides competitive protection (compared to shields).

1)-&gt; 40x longer to repair than shields.
2)-&gt; 50% more hitpoints than shields.
This was supposed to be "the best protection around, but one battle only".
Good for defense ships (which you can mothball for a year while they repair), but useless on non-kamikaze attack ships (since attack ships are not close to the powerful repair facilities).

As an example, an LC with 20% of its size going to defenses (equiv of 2 shield generators -&gt; 750 shields), you get 1200 hitpoints using Ablative Vs.
However, you have 80 armor components, so if your ship gets into a battle, it will take 10 turns for a high tech repair bay 3 (80kT) to finish (8 per turn).
And, since you do not fight with single ships, you will need one repair base for every 2 or 3 LCs in order to repair them all in one year.
IMO, this balances the high hitpoint value of the armor quite nicely; you survive the first attack, but have to spend a very long time under repair afterwards.

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[This message has been edited by suicide_junkie (edited 18 July 2001).]

Re: Basic Tech Mod Info
 

Sorry, I could be completely wrong about this but...

Shouldn't laser weapons be long range, I thought that was the whole point of lasers, they never lose power because they are just light? I think lasers should be very long range low power.

Re: Basic Tech Mod Info
 

SJ,

Downloaded the P&N mod. Lots of cool sounding stuff in the components.txt file, but does it all work?

You've tested the weapon only and engine only mines and they do what they are supposed to?

Geo

Re: Basic Tech Mod Info
 

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Shouldn't laser weapons be long range, I thought that was the whole point of lasers, they never lose power because they are just light? I think lasers should be very long range low power.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>IMO: Long range, low power, and accuracy bonus (since you don't have to lead the target by quite as much).

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Downloaded the P&N mod. Lots of cool sounding stuff in the components.txt file, but does it all work?
You've tested the weapon only and engine only mines and they do what they are supposed to?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Almost.
Yes.

Known stuff that dosen't work:
-Shield regeneration for units. SE4 just dosen't check for regen on units. The shields still work fine, and whenever Aaron gets SR for units added, the bonus abilities will kick in.
-Swashbuckler Pods. SE4 dosen't even try to capture a ship using a fighter-mounted boarding party. Unfortunate, really, but I left them in for now. Hopefully one of the future patches will enable them.
-Emissive Armor. Well, it dosen't work right in original SE4 either.

Unknown at this time:
-Quad2Shields ramming warheads

Known (& modified) stuff that works:
-Core mount guns (boy do they ever)
-Engines (basic property of my mod)
-Ablative Armor
-BuckyTube Gel Plating (even works with AIs)
-Nomadic Resource vehicles (Gets resources from space)
-Pirate Tech restrictions
-Swashbucklers (Very Wimpy! You need 2 to capture 1 crew quarters, so a solo 'buckler is nearly useless)
-Harmonic shielding
-Temporal cloning vats
-BattleMoons
-Drop Pods & Bio-enhanced Fanatic
-Healing Crystal.
-Psy armor
-Bio-Crystal armor
-Spirit Crew Quarters
-Living ships racial trait
-Heavy Bombardment Missiles
-PDC vs PDL
-Small space Yard
-Heavy Fighter, Massive Fighter
-Tachyon Dampener.
-Heavy Shield Generator
-Hardened Mini-Shield Generator
-Mini shield regenerator
-Tachyon mines
-Ion Mines
and more...

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Re: Basic Tech Mod Info
 

SJ,
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>That stuff can't be anything like my original Ablative armor!
Since you have fractional S/T ratios, the armor is not 1kT in size. And the 5 S/T ratio is pretty low.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Ablative TL 1 armor is 4kt; TL 2 is 3 kt; TL 3 is 2kt. I did this to make the tech "grid" possible. Here are the S/T ranges for each level:

A.A. I (1): 15/4 (3.75); A.A. V (1): 23/4 (5.75)
A.A. I (2): 12/3 (4.0) ; A.A. V (2): 22/3 (7.33)
A.A. I (3): 9/2 (4.5) ; A.A. V (3): 19/2 (9.5)

Stealth armor is 30kt and goes from 2.67 to 5.33 max; Reflective armor is 50kt and goes from 2.4 to 4.0 max. Reflective may need to be reduced to 40kt to make it more competitive with Stealth Armor. Ablative beats these types out at all levels, though.

***Note: I just checked Std. Armor. Armor I is 50/10 (5.0) and goes up to 120/10 (12.0) for Armor XV, so I need to drop Armor a little (or increase size to 15kt) and up Ablative.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>There were two things the made the armor what it was:
1) 1kT size. Thus, if you get hurt, you're out of the war for a long time.
2) very high HP/kT (8-15). This way, it provides competitive protection (compared to shields).<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

1) I tried to preserve this aspect; I think that it will provide an alternative to Std. Armor, once I balance that.
2) There are no shields, so I felt justified in modifying the concept a little. I agree that the very high S/T ratio is necessary when shields are allowed. BTW, I started with the values in Devnullmod and didn't look at the P&N comps.txt file; that may change what I see as reasonable/necessary.

ZA,
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>
Shouldn't laser weapons be long range, I thought that was the whole point of lasers, they never lose power because they are just light? I think lasers should be very long range low power.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I see your point. I took the fading laser idea from another post in the previous thread, but on second thought, I'll probably follow your line of thinking. Light does fade out over time (at least theoretically); but probably not over the comparatively small space of combat.

Hope that answers your questions. Now some more questions for you all. http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon7.gif

What do you think about 1) engine disabling warheads/missiles, 2) weapon reload increase/disruption (i.e., EMP weapons), 3) monoliths, and 4) damage-reducing components? I think 4) was mentioned in the previous thread, but I don't remember the rationale or the response it got. Also, what about short range, low damage, high reload AP weapons? Would players load up on those? Or is it feasible to have a seeker with Skips Armor, so PD has a chance to kill it? We already have multiple-explosive projectiles, multi-layer reactive armor, etc.; something similar might be possible with a missile payload.

That's it for now. Gettin' crackin' on it!

------------------
"The Unpronounceable" Krsqk
Basic Tech Mod

[This message has been edited by Krsqk (edited 23 July 2001).]

Re: Basic Tech Mod Info
 

"4) damage-reducing components? I think 4)"

OK, how this works again:

Take a shield. Remove all the shield graphics from the races. Call it Damage Control. Now, give it a shield strength of about 10 and a regen of the same. Poof, it reduces damage by that number per turn.

Phoenix-D

Re: Basic Tech Mod Info
 

Engine damaging weapons: Sure, just make them missiles, you could say they lock onto the exhaust fumes of a ship, then seek and destroy.

Reload disruption: Not sure how you would explain that away.

Monoliths: Keep monoliths, just mod them to be a lot weeker than reg. facilities. Enough to balance it at least, you can produce 300 of each with one monolith (maybe call it an outpost, or central complex) or you can produce 1000 of one type with a specialized facility. It doesn't sound like it's worth it but if you land on a planet that can produce all three well, then a monolith would be usefull.

Make armor piercing weapons, we have armor piercing weapons now.

I think you should mod missiles too. Make them one fire per round and maybe 20 kt (it doesn't sound usefull, but it is). Then make torpedoes pretty much missiles with multiple fires per combat but less damage... did I mention that earlier.

[This message has been edited by ZeroAdunn (edited 18 July 2001).]

Re: Basic Tech Mod Info
 

Phoenix,

I understand (at least now) how to implement the Damage Control comps; I'm just wondering what excuse I can give for them. What systems do we have today/in the near future that would approximate this effect?

RE: Armor Balance. After looking at the P&N comps.txt, I modified the Std. Armor and Ablative Armor families to better reflect the original intent of the tech. Here's where it stands now:

Std. Armor raised to 15kt; structure runs from 30 to 100.
Armor I = 2.0 S/T
Armor XV = 6.67 S/T

Ablative Armor ratios reworked. Researching a higher tech gives, on average, a 1.25x better S/T ratio (was 1.125x). Increased starting ratio of A.A. I (1) to 4.75 (was 3.75). S/T ranges are now:

A.A. I (1): 19/4 (4.75); A.A. V (1): 27/4 (6.75)
A.A. I (2): 17/3 (5.67); A.A. V (2): 25/3 (8.33)
A.A. I (3): 14/2 (7.00); A.A. V (3): 21/2 (10.5)

Hopefully, this will correct the imbalance.

RE: the Limited Unlimited Supply Generator, I don't know of any way to generate supplies without requiring either 1) component use, or 2) solar generation. Am I missing something? I think a limited Quantum Reactor comp would be good, but these are the only solutions I can think of.

RE: Emergency Supplies, I removed them for exactly the reason expressed elsewhere: If they were built into the ship, they might as well be part of the general supply system; and if they can hold more supplies/kt, then why not exclusively use those components for supply storage instead of bulky cargo containers?

RE: Solar Sails, I don't think they should be included due to conflict/abuse with P&N style propulsion. Giving bonus/extra movement doesn't work in this situation, and giving standard movement can be abused (ships with 40 Solar Sail III--much greater range, minimal supply usage than with best engines in P&N). I may include one level, but it would probably not add much movement; today's solar sails are quite large and would take a great amount of time to generate significant speed. They're probably better off not included, just to keep with the thrust of the mod.

Krsqk out.

------------------
"The Unpronounceable" Krsqk
Basic Tech Mod

[This message has been edited by Krsqk (edited 23 July 2001).]

Re: Basic Tech Mod Info
 

"Make armor piercing weapons, we have armor piercing weapons now."

From my perspective, the problem with AP weaps is balance, there being nothing that will stop them. It's a bit like Null-Space weaps in the std game.

I agree anti-engine missiles are legit; what about anti-engine mines, though?

Can weaps fire 2+ times per round? Reload .5? (from Torp suggestion)

My current thinking on missiles/torps is leave torps alone (as direct fire); missiles will be set up in a research grid similar to armor. Launcher tech will develop launchers (fire rate/weapon size); warhead tech will develop yield (damage); Missile tech will develop delivery vehicles (speed, seeker resistance). Individual sub-tech areas will develop additional areas such as Sprint Missiles, Engine Destroying, High Yield, etc.

Something similar will probably (possibly? depends on time) be done with the slug throwers, with less differentiation, just to give a different feel. PD will probably adapt the P&N style, with name changes (don't know if we have any lasers capable of bLasting nukes), i.e. "short-range" and "mid-range."

Keep the comments coming!

------------------
"The Unpronounceable" Krsqk
Basic Tech Mod

[This message has been edited by Krsqk (edited 23 July 2001).]

Re: Basic Tech Mod Info
 

"I understand (at least now) how to implement the Damage Control comps; I'm just wondering what excuse I can give for them. What systems do we have today/in the near future that would approximate this effect?"

Well, you could call it a specialized control center that directs crews which quickly jery-rigs damage as it happens, reducing the overall effect on the ship. Loosing the control center takes away the cordination of quick repairs, and thus the damage reduction.

EDIT:
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>
RE: the Limited Unlimited Supply Generator, I don't know of any way to generate supplies without requiring either 1) component use, or 2) solar generation. Am I missing something? I think a limited Quantum Reactor comp would be good, but these are the only solutions I can think of.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

That one's easy, if you don't mind fudging it.

Take this:
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>
Name := Emergency Resupply Pod III
Description := Pod which will be sacrificed to gain extra supplies for the ship. Only one component allowed per vehicle.
Pic Num := 35
Tonnage Space Taken := 10
Tonnage Structure := 10
Cost Minerals := 400
Cost Organics := 0
Cost Radioactives := 0
Vehicle Type := Ship\Base
Supply Amount Used := 0
Restrictions := One Per Vehicle
General Group := Supply
Family := 24
Roman Numeral := 3
Custom Group := 0
Number of Tech Req := 1
Tech Area Req 1 := Resupply
Tech Level Req 1 := 4
Number of Abilities := 2
Ability 1 Type := Emergency Resupply
Ability 1 Descr := Generates 6000 supply when used.
Ability 1 Val 1 := 6000
Ability 1 Val 2 := 0
Ability 2 Type := Component Destroyed On Use
Ability 2 Descr := Component is destroyed after use.
Ability 2 Val 1 := 0
Ability 2 Val 2 := 0
Weapon Type := None
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Remove the second ability, rename it and change the decription, maybe limit it to one per ship and/or make it expensive, and you've got yourself a re-useable, if manually triggered, resupply component. (speaking of which, will ships use these things if they run out of supplies? Will the AI? The resupply minister?)

Phoenix-D

[This message has been edited by Phoenix-D (edited 18 July 2001).]

Re: Basic Tech Mod Info
 

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>RE: Solar Sails, I don't think they should be included due to conflict/abuse with P&N style propulsion. Giving bonus/extra movement doesn't work in this situation, and giving standard movement can be abused (ships with 40 Solar Sail III--much greater range, minimal supply usage than with best engines in P&N). I may include one level, but it would probably not add much movement; today's solar sails are quite large and would take a great amount of time to generate significant speed. They're probably better off not included, just to keep with the thrust of the mod.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Look at how I did it in P&N. The Solar Sails are slower than engines, but use no fuel.

So if you want no fuel usage, you'll have to skimp on weapons/defenses or go slower.
You could also go with a mix of both.
The best sail gives you only the equivalent speed of CT engines; you could go 50% faster on Quantums.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Ablative Armor ratios reworked. Researching a higher tech gives, on average, a 1.25x better S/T ratio (was 1.125x). Increased starting ratio of A.A. I (1) to 4.75 (was 3.75). S/T ranges are now:

A.A. I (1): 19/4 (4.75); A.A. V (1): 27/4 (7.75)
A.A. I (2): 17/3 (5.67); A.A. V (2): 25/3 (8.33)
A.A. I (3): 14/2 (7.00); A.A. V (3): 21/2 (10.5)
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
IMO, this means that the AA x (1) is better than an AA x (3).
See, in this case, the 3's take twice a slong to repair, since they're smaller.

I suggest keeping the same numbers, but swap the sizes, so the armor gets easier to repair as time goes by.


<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>"4) damage-reducing components? I think 4)"
OK, how this works again:

Take a shield. Remove all the shield graphics from the races. Call it Damage Control. Now, give it a shield strength of about 10 and a regen of the same. Poof, it reduces damage by that number per turn.

Phoenix-D

"I understand (at least now) how to implement the Damage Control comps; I'm just wondering what excuse I can give for them. What systems do we have today/in the near future that would approximate this effect?"
Well, you could call it a specialized control center that directs crews which quickly jery-rigs damage as it happens, reducing the overall effect on the ship. Loosing the control center takes away the cordination of quick repairs, and thus the damage reduction.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>I would call this Emissive armor! It absorbs the first 30 points of damage and the rest spills over onto other parts of your hull. The armor would "cool down" every round as the regeneration kicks in.
Multiple segments of armor would dissipate the energy better, as well as having a higher absorption limit before they fail.
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[This message has been edited by suicide_junkie (edited 18 July 2001).]

Re: Basic Tech Mod Info
 

Tonight's update: some progress, but slow going. http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon7.gif I'm into the weapons section of Components.txt, which is currently 2/3 of the way through the file. Be sure to check the current changes list to see what I've done with Repair Bays/Space Yards, Mine Layers/Fighter/Sat Bays, and PDC.

Brief (yeah, right) explanation of Repair Bays. I started with a 50kt module which repairs 2 components. The repair rate goes up 1 each level; the size goes up 25kt every 2 levels (except the Last one). This results in a fluctuating, but rising repair/kt ratio. I.e., Bay I has an R/T of 25; Bay 2 has 16.67; Bay III has 15.75; Bay IV has 15; and so on. Repair bays are linked to repair tech and ship construction tech. The rationale here is that since repair bays get bigger, they won't be as practical for smaller ships anyway.

Just to make life more interesting, and maybe force a new strategy or two, I threw in 3 levels of Base Repair Docks. These are 450kt (just like the new space yards), and they repair 40, 55, and 70 components each. They're linked to base construction as well as ship construction and repair; I figured it would give another reason to research Base Construction 3. (Besides the 1 pt. of combat mvt. for bases.)

Any feedback on that?


RE: Ablative Armor. SJ, I see your point about sizes; do you think I should keep the better ratios for the better (smaller) armor; or should I have small armor/good ratio and big armor/not-as-good ratio, making people decide if protection or easy repair is more important to them? (That would mean Only Latest Components wouldn't always give the "best" choice.)

RE: Damage Control. Of course! Emissive Armor (without the Emissive Armor ability, at least). Guess that's a temporary workaround for that glitch, anyway. I'll get right on it--after all the other things I have to get right on, at least. http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon7.gif It does have the potential to be greatly abused, though; any suggestions for reasonable limits (with 5 or 10 levels)?

RE: Limited Unlimited Supply Generators
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Remove the second ability, rename it and change the decription, maybe limit it to one per ship and/or make it expensive, and you've got yourself a re-useable, if manually triggered, resupply component. (speaking of which, will ships use these things if they run out of supplies? Will the AI? The resupply minister?)<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I don't know if the ministers/AI will use them; I've never used them myself, so my ministers never got a chance (if I even let them touch my ships). I would prefer not to have it manually triggered, but then I'd like a raise, too. http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon7.gif I'll put it in and test it (if I ever get to the testing stage).

Please give feedback, esp. on the repair bays/space yards and the unit launch bays.

Out for now!

------------------
"The Unpronounceable" Krsqk
Basic Tech Mod

[This message has been edited by Krsqk (edited 23 July 2001).]

Re: Basic Tech Mod Info
 

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>I figured it would give another reason to research Base Construction 3. (Besides the 1 pt. of combat mvt. for bases.)<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>You can do this? This is another idea I remember being kicked around a while back, but I thought noone could get it working.

I really have to do a better job reading these forums. I do several times a day, but I don't read every post from begining to end. (I bet these are all in SJ's pirate thread aren't they. http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon7.gif )

I am guessing you are doing it by some sort of ability similer to what afterburners have? If this can be done for bases can it be, and is anyone doing it for sats?

Geo

Re: Basic Tech Mod Info
 

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>These are 450kt (just like the new space yards), and they repair 40, 55, and 70 components each. They're linked to base construction as well as ship construction and repair; I figured it would give another reason to research Base Construction 3. (Besides the 1 pt. of combat mvt. for bases.)<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>You can't be serious! 70 components/turn would be insane even on a 2000kT repair component (starbases only).

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>RE: Ablative Armor. SJ, I see your point about sizes; do you think I should keep the better ratios for the better (smaller) armor; or should I have small armor/good ratio and big armor/not-as-good ratio, making people decide if protection or easy repair is more important to them? (That would mean Only Latest Components wouldn't always give the "best" choice.)<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>I believe that choosing the ablative armor means that the player is choosing protection over repair time anyways.
If they wanted fast repair, they would have used the standard armors.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>RE: Damage Control. Of course! Emissive Armor (without the Emissive Armor ability, at least). Guess that's a temporary workaround for that glitch, anyway. I'll get right on it--after all the other things I have to get right on, at least. It does have the potential to be greatly abused, though; any suggestions for reasonable limits (with 5 or 10 levels)?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Given an adequately expensive tech area, I could see a large baseship having 1000 EA points. If the armor emisses 30% per turn, that's reasonable.

How about 30kT armor, generating 150 & regenerating 30 per turn?
Damage resistance of (5 + 1/turn) per KT.
For 1000 pts of defense, that's 210KT, 20% of a Dreadnaught. After adding P&N v2 style engines, that armor would take up 33% of your usable space on a Dreadnaught.

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-&lt;Download V2.0&gt;-
-&lt;Download V1.6&gt;-
-&lt;Download compatible EMPs for P&N v1.6&gt;-
-&lt;SJs latest AI Patcher&gt;-
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Re: Basic Tech Mod Info
 

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>You can't be serious! 70 components/turn would be insane even on a 2000kT repair component (starbases only).<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Well, 55 and 70 are somewhat arbitrary figures, but 40 isn't. Well, okay, it is, but not as much. A space station filled (450kt) with Repair Bay IIs (50kt; rate 3)would have a repair rate of 27. With RB IV (75kt/5), the rate would be 30. With maximum tech (RB IX--125kt/10+RB IV), the rate is 35. Granted, only the first two examples are likely, since they would have long since upgraded to Repair Dock II or III, but I wanted a comp that would give a reason to use it instead of 9 RBs.

I thought about making the lvl. 2 and 3 comps battle station- and starbase-sized, but then it would be far easier to put in 15 or 30 or 50 RBs (and it probably still is, since the Docks are One Per Vehicle). The goal was to create a component that would serve as a forward repair station in systems that have been recently conquered and have not yet established a colony presence. It would also create another strategic target in the game, along with fleets and important planets. As it is, I feel bases are pretty much useless (except for Pirate and Nomad races http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon7.gif). Would it be better to have only a single mid-/high-tech Dock component? I'm also planning a planetary drydock facility; should massive repairs be left to this? Or should I just have one big battle-station or starbase component, and make it cheaper or something than the equivalent-sized (but much more powerful) number of repair bays?

Also, the repair bays were resized to account for the exclusion of shields. Without some serious repair capability, then the fleet that held a couple of ships in reserve will probably win the day. I know, it's all strategy; but then, so is this, just a different type. Should the rates be reduced?

[EDIT]
FWIW, a battle station with max tech can repair 110 comps/turn, and a starbase can repair 187 comps/turn. Should I make repair bays Ships Only?
[/EDIT]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>I believe that choosing the ablative armor means that the player is choosing protection over repair time anyways.
If they wanted fast repair, they would have used the standard armors.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>That's why I have the armor decrease in size as ablative tech levels go up. Better protection, yes, but you have to pay for it. Not in cost/(S/T), but in repair time.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>You can do this? This is another idea I remember being kicked around a while back, but I thought noone could get it working.

...(I bet these are all in SJ's pirate thread aren't they. http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon7.gif )<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Actually, the base combat movement is in Devnullmod. At least, that's where I got it. (read: highlight - Ctrl+C - Ctrl-V) And, yes, it uses the same ability as Afterburners. AFAIK, it works; however, MM has it hardcoded that sats can't move, so that doesn't work. (There is a similar component for sats in Devnullmod, though.)

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"The Unpronounceable" Krsqk
Basic Tech Mod

[This message has been edited by Krsqk (edited 23 July 2001).]

Re: Basic Tech Mod Info
 

FWIW
Say what?

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>I believe that choosing the ablative armor means that the player is choosing protection over repair time anyways.
If they wanted fast repair, they would have used the standard armors.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>That's why I have the armor decrease in size as ablative tech levels go up. Better protection, yes, but you have to pay for it. Not in cost/(S/T), but in repair time.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I was looking at it the other way; with an expensive tech area (75k?) to increase the size and reduce the repair time. You could leave the damage ratios the same as your tech goes up here, but by the end of the tech tree, your AA repairs twice as fast.

Looking at your stats, it would be worth the slower repair time, but that kinda seems like a step backwards.

I was thinking of one tech area to improve the HP/KT, and the other to boost the repair rate.

PS: If we're making major changes all over anyways, why don't we multiply all sizes by ten?
Then we could have finer control over things like this; it would be like measuring by 0.1 KT.


RE: Repair Bays
It looks like you are automatically assuming everyone is going to use ablative armor exclusively, and need that vast repair capacity.
Ships with other armor techs are only going to have 30 components at most. Do you really want one base to fix 6 per month?
I don't want the Ablative armor to be used on every ship, just the ones that HAVE to survive one battle (like a plagueship), or a flagship (for RPing), or possibly a "special forces" fleet, that fights very tough foes, only occasionally, spending the rest of the time mothballed.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>As it is, I feel bases are pretty much useless <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>I suggest reducing the repair ability of ship-board components to something like 3 repair/100KT. That's enough to get the ship moving again, but leaves the heavy repairs (eg. 100KT of AA)for a starbase, which would have the huge spacedock components.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>I thought about making the lvl. 2 and 3 comps battle station- and starbase-sized, but then it would be far easier to put in 15 or 30 or 50 RBs (and it probably still is, since the Docks are One Per Vehicle). <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>How so? If the Spacedock is more effective that the RBs, they would be used. At the very least, a player would use a BS SpaceDock on a Starbase, so they have more room for armor & defense weapons.
------------------
The latest info onPirates & Nomads (forum thread).
-&lt;Download V2.0&gt;-
-&lt;Download V1.6&gt;-
-&lt;Download compatible EMPs for P&N v1.6&gt;-
-&lt;SJs latest AI Patcher&gt;-
Visit My Homepage

[This message has been edited by suicide_junkie (edited 19 July 2001).]

Re: Basic Tech Mod Info
 

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>FWIW
What?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>For What It's Worth. http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon7.gif

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>It looks like you are automatically assuming everyone is going to use ablative armor exclusively, and need that vast repair capacity.
Ships with other armor techs are only going to have 30 components at most. Do you really want one base to fix 6 per month?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>No, the figures in the hundreds were with Repair Bays, not Base Repair Docks. One base would fix, say, only two ships per month @ 70 comps. http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/ima...ons/icon12.gif My dilemma was trying to balance the Docks with the number of Bays potentially in a Space Station (I didn't want to mess with the larger bases). I think that I'll:
1) Restrict Bays to ships only. That will take away some of the competition.
2) Double most Bay sizes. Currently, the best Bay repairs 8/100kt; the worst is 4/100kt. This will cut it to 4/100kt at best.
3) Lower Dock rates to 20, 30, and 40, keeping them restricted to bases and one per vehicle, and increasing the sizes of the Last two levels to fit BS/SB. I do think that large scale repairs will be needed, even without ablative armor, but I think 40 comps/turn/per fleet is reasonable, considering it's like a base of operations. I regularly reach 25-30 comps/turn repair in my standard games with medium/large fleets, due to multiple repair ships.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Looking at your stats, it would be worth the slower repair time, but that kinda seems like a step backwards.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>I agree, at least now. I'll see how it comes out.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>PS: If we're making major changes all over anyways, why don't we multiply all sizes by ten?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>ARRRRRGH!!!! *brain fuses blow, ricocheting off the walls*
Okay, I agree, finer control. (Hrrrmph.) I'll see. Don't count on it for v1.0. http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/ima...ons/icon12.gif I only have 37.283 hours in a day (at least in this solar system).

Krsqk out.

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"The Unpronounceable" Krsqk
Basic Tech Mod

[This message has been edited by Krsqk (edited 23 July 2001).]

Re: Basic Tech Mod Info
 

It's finally here! Well, sort of. http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon7.gif

Beta Version .75 is officially released. Currently known restrictions include:

<UL TYPE=SQUARE>
<LI>Due to major tech tree changes/reductions, the AI currently does not work with this mod. If anyone is interested in modifying stock AIs for this mod, please contact me via e-mail or ICQ.
<LI>This is a beta Version. I have attempted to squash all bugs, but that does not mean I have been successful.
<LI>This is still a beta Version. Not everything is balanced, and it is possible I have overlooked a severe imbalance. Should you find a problem or if you have any suggestions, please contact me.[/list]Current features include, but are not limited to:
<UL TYPE=SQUARE>
<LI>Drastically reworked tech tree, including several research "grids," allowing for near-infinite variety in research paths (okay, not quite near-infinite)
<LI>Several tech branches with multiple requirements, forcing multi-layered research
<LI>P&N v2.0 style propulsion, extended for fighters
<LI>Reworked satellite sizes, including two new Stealth Satellite sizes
<LI>Reworked mines, including detectable mines, two Stealth Mine sizes, and Seeker Mine Warheads
<LI>Several different "flavors" of most weapon types, including extended range, heavy duty, high accuracy, etc.[/list]
Again, feedback is requested. Download and enjoy!

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"The Unpronounceable" Krsqk
Basic Tech Mod
--Basic Tech Mod v.75
--Changes list

[This message has been edited by Krsqk (edited 23 July 2001).]

Re: Basic Tech Mod Info
 

I looked over the file briefly, and it seems that for each improved missile warhead, you kept the same name. Right? Anyway, it might be a good idea to have SOME indication of what happened..lest people think they just got a duplicate tech.

Phoenix-D

Re: Basic Tech Mod Info
 

Just checked out the mod and noticed one thing - ion engines are way to fast. In real life ion engines produce about the same thrust as you would feel when holding a piece of paper in your hand. What makes ion engines usefull is that they use very little feul and in space thrust is cumulative.

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Captain, I found your pants.

Re: Basic Tech Mod Info
 

Yah, but in SE4 thrust *isn't* cumulative..

Phoenix-D

Re: Basic Tech Mod Info
 

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>I looked over the file briefly, and it seems that for each improved missile warhead, you kept the same name. Right? Anyway, it might be a good idea to have SOME indication of what happened..lest people think they just got a duplicate tech.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Would it be better to do it the way I did the armor? I.e., Cap. Ship Missile I (1) ? The problem I ran into there was that, with three tech reqs, I'd need a Foobar I (1)(a) type system. Seemed kind of messy; but I'll give 'er a try. <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Just checked out the mod and noticed one thing - ion engines are way to fast. In real life ion engines produce about the same thrust as you would feel when holding a piece of paper in your hand. What makes ion engines usefull is that they use very little feul and in space thrust is cumulative.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>I couldn't quite bring myself to give ion engines thrust of 1 or 2, so I made them equal to the solid-fuel boosters (which is obviously not real-to-life). (Please note that the number of standard movement points produced by an engine is not the number of moves a ship will have.) My intent for ion drives was slowest speed, lowest fuel consumption, and highest number of moves possible (supplies stored/supplies used). I put each engine type in a different family because each one has a different situation it's best in. So, if you don't mind slow speeds, but you have a long way to go, you just might want to try out the ion drives. If you've re-modded in quantum reactors, then feel free to use fusion drives on everything. http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon7.gif

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"The Unpronounceable" Krsqk
Basic Tech Mod
--Basic Tech Mod v.75

Re: Basic Tech Mod Info
 

Personally, I'd ditch the numerals entirely (at least the SE4 made ones) and do something like:

Cap. Ship Missile 1/1/1

Or
Cap. ship Missile
Abilities:
Uses a level 1 warhead
Uses a level 1 drive
Uses a level 1 launcher

Phoenix-D

Re: Basic Tech Mod Info
 

Sounds good. I'll do that next. Thanks for the feedback.

Any comments on play/balance? I realize it's rather hard to play without any AI, http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon9.gif but if anyone does, please let me know what you think.

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"The Unpronounceable" Krsqk
Basic Tech Mod
--Basic Tech Mod v.75