Seeking MP Serpent Cult Advice
 

So, I just signed up for a game and am going to play late era pythium (serpent cult). I had hoped to make my build around the formidable Hydra unit, but I somehow overlooked thier ridiculous pricetag of 250gp. There is simply no way you can base an MP strategy on a 250gp unit that you are going to put on the front lines... is there?

What are your experiences with Serpent Cult?

Have you used them in MP?

Is there a trick to the Hyrdas that I am missing?

What other strategies are applicable to the Serpent Cult?

Re: Seeking MP Serpent Cult Advice
 

Well, they are insulated somewhat from the common anti-big troop spells (such as Soul Slay) due to their multiple heads. (They only kill one head at a time.) I would say that IF you wanted to do a hydra strategy, make sure they are using the quickfix mod that keeps them sacred if they lose a head.

IMO, 250g for the Hydra is not 'ridiculous'. I would say that a Water-9 Bless is pretty important to them (in MP) because that gets them into melee quicker. They don't _generally_ need more damage or attack, so Fire is not really necessary. Astral would be quite interesting as a way to boost their attack. I would assume that the Twist Fate effect only affects the first head. If it affects _each_ head... well, that would be great. A small Earth bless might be good for reinvigoration. Air and Blood can probably be skipped (but see below).

As for other strategies, you can really leverage the heretics, done properly. If you like raiding, you can have 4 or 5 heretics backed by an army (dare I say hydras) in the opponent's backfield, reducing their dominion everywhere. They're also useful in rapidly switching dominion from yours to theirs in recently conquered territories.

Another strategy that dovetails nicely with the heretic plan is to saturate the map with satyrs. You would get these from the Blood-1 summon Orgy. To get this started early would probably require a Blood pretender, or getting lucky with a Reveler. Once you have them, though, every blood slave/mage combination gives you an assassin that is pretty good for a chassis, at least. Given rudimentary equipment, they're not bad at the job. As a side benefit, you get Maenads that you might want to consider giving to your mages as guards (depending on the prevalence of assassins).

Those are the major areas you can work with, IMO. You have good flexibility in your mages as well, but that is a more supplemental strength rather than a core strength. YMMV.

Resident Serpent Cult Freak

Re: Seeking MP Serpent Cult Advice
 

Considering people form multiplayer strategies on 600 gold Niefel Jarls... or less on the frontline giants...

Anyways, I've got no experience with the Serpent Cult. I do remember hearing some stuff about the hatchlings- you may want to give them a try in the early/mid game, and save the full-grown hydras for later.

Re: Seeking MP Serpent Cult Advice
 

I've only played them twice, for short periods, in SP. The W9 bless advice is solid. So this would enable decent scales to help afford the Hydras which are super units.

I don't understand how to play the heretics (the only other heretic I ever played was the Arco stealth one, and that was okay) and never got comfortable playing Pythium. So I only went about 20 turns each time, quit and never felt that I played them well. Nor do I have any great desire to return to the Serpent cult.

Nor do I have the baby hydras figured out either.

Re: Seeking MP Serpent Cult Advice
 

It's simple: Baby hydras are for cuddling

Re: Seeking MP Serpent Cult Advice
 

Are hydras dry and scaly or slimy?

Re: Seeking MP Serpent Cult Advice
 

Knowing that hydra heads can absorb an insti-kill spell is handy. But honestly that does not go a long way to protecting a 250gp investment. All that an enemy player would need to do is use a squad of archers to slaughter all the hydra's heads and then blast it with an insti-kill and your 250gp is just up in smoke.

As for raiding with heretics: which ones are you recommending? I'm definitely not using hydras for raiding tho - the cost would be exorbidant for such a risky function. Or were you talking about hydra hatchlings?

I've explored the satyrs and, as you say, they are good assassins with minor equipment. But assassination hardly works in MP. After your first attack, the enemy will immediately place bodyguards around his commanders. At best, you get lucky now and then. At worst you spend a lot of effort for nothing.

Re: Seeking MP Serpent Cult Advice
 

What about serpent cult magic?

What spells do you guys go for normally?

What spells do you use on the battlefield?

Which mages do you recruit most and why?

Re: Seeking MP Serpent Cult Advice
 

Well, the obvious counter to archer issues is an Air bless. If you go to Air-9, then Orb Lightning (which might be an issue) is less of a threat.

As for the heretics I recommend, if you want to start a blood economy, you're going to have an awful lot of non-Blood Revelers running around, who just so happen to be Heretic 3. Those aren't half bad, but I usually use them for 'dominion clean up'. I should think that the Fire heretics would be good for combat support as well as Dominion kill. This would also suggest using the Fire resistant national troops or summons as your raiding 'army'.

Can't really comment on the 'Assassination in MP' issue, although considering the minimal investment needed, the cost of the guards for the commanders might be more than the cost of the Satyrs. Economic warfare is still warfare. :p Worst case, give them a Bane Venom Charm and send them in. Can commanders pick those up?

Now, the magic questions. The Serpent Cult has _extremely_ versatile magic, with most of it accessible at the 2-level. Air, Earth, and Blood might be a small problem. Don't expect the greatest multipath abilities, though.

Spells? Well, if you mean by 'global', I'm not exactly sure. Your most ubiquitous magic is Water and Nature, so that might give you some leads.

Battlefield magic depends on your gameplan. If you go Hydras, Poison is your friend. Your bestest buddy. Any/all people on the battlefield that you control should be poison immune. If, however, you go for the heretic horde, as stated Fire evocations sound like 'the plan'.

Well, I tend to like sacred mages myself. Your capital should be producing a Serpent Priest a turn as soon as possible. These guys are your one-stop shop, especially for a hydra strategy. Poison immune innately, Holy-2 Priest, and IIRC 80 Leadership (may only be 40).

As far as other mages are concerned, I like using the Renatus for research purposes in the 'interior' of my territory. Basically, non-heretics. I place the heretics on the borders where they can be quickly placed to get rid of dominion. It sort of makes a dominion 'dead zone' that anyone will find extremely hard to penetrate. It also gives them a quick route into enemy territory.

I hope this helps.

Re: Seeking MP Serpent Cult Advice
 

No, sadly the majority of these choices just won't work in the multiplayer environment. I'll just have to fly by the seat of my pants, I guess.

Re: Seeking MP Serpent Cult Advice
 

The hydras are pretty vulnerable to archer/crossbow fire. I bumped into a few in a MP recently and just 30 crossbows took out all the heads of about half a dozen hydras, leaving them in there 40 hp final form.

A air bless might work well with hydras to protect them from this. Up close and personal the things are lethal. Flying may well work on them, they can then close in on the enemy straight away.

Mass flight on a bunch of hydras may be as fun as it is on a herd of elephants. The problem is Pythium as no air mages I believe... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Re: Seeking MP Serpent Cult Advice
 

Meglobob: You do have AS Theurgs as the Serpent Cult. I believe they are capital-only.

Re: Seeking MP Serpent Cult Advice
 

If you aren't using the quickfix or any other kind of mod to fix the sacred hydras, be aware that they're only sacred until they lose a head, and as such are overpriced and crap.

Re: Seeking MP Serpent Cult Advice
 

Oh wow. Thats even more vulnerable than I thought they would be Meglobob. Man thats depressing. Thanks for the information tho, that really confirms a lot of my fears.

Air bless could be useful, but its a huge price to pay in like 6-8 air just to get airshield on a handful of units :/

Re: Seeking MP Serpent Cult Advice
 

One thing that other players may find useful tho is actually that I've determined that Hydras do not really benefit from a strong (L9) bless. Particularly water, which you would think would be a braindead choice for them. The problem is that they have so many attacks already that water just puts them even farther over the limit of attacks since you can only hit two full squares per turn.

Re: Seeking MP Serpent Cult Advice
 

So, flying, ethereal, blessed hydras, is what you are saying. Got it.

Re: Seeking MP Serpent Cult Advice
 

Could go strait for Arrowfend - which is also on the way to Mass Flight.

Re: Seeking MP Serpent Cult Advice
 

Nah, LA pyth doesnt have the mages to support either of those spells.

Ethereal hydras really is the correct answer to the arrow problem. But none of the LA pyth mages with astral are poison resistant.

Re: Seeking MP Serpent Cult Advice
 

{Sir_Dr_D whoeas abysia is one of Pythiums neighbors in this game quiety takes notes.}

Re: Seeking MP Serpent Cult Advice
 

Yeah it seems like none of the lvl9 blesses actually work well on big hydras. Fire, they don't really need the extra attack and they can kill just about anything strong with poison damage anyway, water, they already have so many attacks it won't help vs chaff and the def bonus is worthless on such a big unit. Death is of course next to useless. S9 they only get twist fate once, though the mr might be good against paralyze (which is far worse for them than soul slay etc). E9, useless. A9,.. eh,... well you /could/, but it's A9.

Re: Seeking MP Serpent Cult Advice
 

Probably the biggest reason to not use a bless with Serpent Cult is the fact that due to the way Hydra's now work, after 1 head is killed it reverts to non-sacred status.

So even if you wanted to use a bless it is only a temporary blessing. You have to build your blessing around your cataphracts and possibly Sirrush.

Re: Seeking MP Serpent Cult Advice
 

I wonder if an affliction bless affects the hyra's poison cloud. I don't know how effective it would be, but it would certainly be amusing if combatants start getting chest wounds and losing limbs from just walking close to the hydra.

Re: Seeking MP Serpent Cult Advice
 

Whoa, Zen! Good to see you again man http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif The hydra sacred bug is fixed by the special hydra quickfix mod. As for the cataphracts: they just arent special enough of a unit to bless, not to mention thier excessive resource cost.

Yeah, I toyed around with an S9 or even S6 blessing but its just not worth it for the amount of points you have to put in. Hydras have good MR anyway. In the end I think I'm just going to go for a combination of low level blessings to give the hydras a little more oomph and concentrate on scales and magic instead.

Heretics are a load of junk!
 

In other news:

I've just found in my test game that Heretic units only reduce beneficial friendly dominion!! So, for example, they will kill all your Order scale, but not your Drain. ....... There goes my Drain-3 plan http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/frown.gif

Could there be a more useless unit trait than Heretic?

Re: Heretics are a load of junk!
 

Umm, Plague Carrier and Reaper? Because their effect is even worse, which I suppose would be damning with faint praise...

Re: Seeking MP Serpent Cult Advice
 

This thread has the best information on hydras I've ever encountered. I don't like to play any of the nations with them for my own whimsical reasons. I always thought the Hydras were great but expensive units until this thread.

Re: Seeking MP Serpent Cult Advice
 

I'm not sure what you mean by "only reduce beneficial friendly dominion"?

I thought they reduced dominion: number of candles. Are you saying they reduce the effect of good scales? Or lower the good scales?

Or just that when you have no candles you get the bad scale effects, but not the good ones.

Re: Seeking MP Serpent Cult Advice
 

He probably means that if you haev a dominion with a mix of positive ane negative scales (e.g. order 3, misfortune 3), the heretics will lower your dominion to 0 and neutralize your order 3 scale, but they will NOT neutralize misfortune 3 to luck/misfortune 0 so you get the worst of both worlds.

Re: Seeking MP Serpent Cult Advice
 

But with no dominion, the scales will fade away over time, right?

Or on the borders, never get established.

Re: Seeking MP Serpent Cult Advice
 

is the "blood curse" effect is applied for every Hydra's shape ?

Re: Seeking MP Serpent Cult Advice
 

Mathu has a point... that would be SCARY if whoever killed a head got cursed.

And I suggested a W9 bless because I thought the Quickness you got made you move farther. Thus, your hydras get into combat quicker.

As for the Theurgs not being Poison-immune, you can give them Poison Rings or Birch Boots + some other random item that gives Poison Resistance.

And don't call the heretics useless. You just don't use them inside your own dominion. Dominion scales don't change unless there is dominion of some sort in the province that is different than the prevailing conditions (AFAIK). Therefore, the heretics lower dominion to 0, and 'freeze' the dominion scales in place. Now, if you're attacking the opponent, you have the heretics play 'dominion clean-up' and then move them out so that your own dominion can take hold.

They are an offensive weapon, not a defensive weapon. Has anyone tried to put an idol on them to see if they go up to Heretic 5 or 6? IIRC, Heretic 6 would be a 100% chance to reduce dominion every turn.

And I do find Hydras 'great but expensive'. Just like every other unit/spell/item in this game, you need to know how to use them.

Re: Seeking MP Serpent Cult Advice
 

Heretics will reduce good scales (Order, Prod, Luck, Magic) but not bad ones. So if your nation has a mix of good and bad and have heretics reducing your dominion then you will be left with only bad scales. Was really amazed when I found this. I thought that heretics acted like a Stone Idol, where they just totally reduced all dominion in a prov, good and bad.

Re: Seeking MP Serpent Cult Advice
 

Ironhawk: Heretics might have effects on good scales, but that is not their function. Their function is to lower the dominion rating as a whole. I have not noticed anything about Heretics changing the actual scales of a province they are in, and I generally play with very good scales.

Re: Seeking MP Serpent Cult Advice
 

Vedalken - yeah W9 looks like a good idea on paper. But the speed increase is marginal (from 7 to 10) and the extra attacks from quickness only really helps when your hydra has 1-2 heads left.

I did notice tho that Serpent Priests (the main la pyth mage) do get an astral random, so thats pretty sweet actually. Since they are custom made to bless your hydras in the first place, now they can also etherealize them.

No, heretics really are useless. You say they are good for dominion cleanup - but there are plenty of other things that are better. Temples. Prophets. Cheap indy priests that dont kill your dominion. The "value" of heretics is supposedly magical versatility, but honestly I'm not seeing it yet. You get a 1/20 blood pick and an uncommon F2 at the price of magnifying your bad dominion. How can you justify this?

Re: Seeking MP Serpent Cult Advice
 

The Heretics are MUCH faster at cleaning up dominion than temples, prophet, or cheap priests. Heretics don't have to be set to preach, they just move around. Temples can be expensive (and I hear people don't just put them up willy-nilly in MP). You have one prophet. And cheap indy priests are not very useful given the way preaching works.

Consider the simple effect of using heretics to funnel troops (magical or otherwise) to the front line through hostile dominion. Having reread the dominion rules, preaching (which I assume heretics are a form of) doesn't care about your Dominion. Therefore, as the Serpent Cult you can most likely get away with a rather low starting dominion and use your heretics to screen away opponents' dominion.

Heretics have their uses. I am sorry if you are unable to see them.

Poison Resistant Troops
 

Hey, another question for you all: Assuming I were to go the ethereal hydra route, for a moment. And keeping in mind the paths that are generally available to LA pyth...

What poison res unit should I use to fill out the ranks of that army?

Re: Poison Resistant Troops
 

Clearly, bog beasts are the superior choice.

Re: Poison Resistant Troops
 

LOL

Re: Poison Resistant Troops
 

Your random S Serpent Priests. They are capital only, like the hydras, 100%PR. About one in 4 will be astral endowed, but that's usually enough.
I'd also suggest not buying any troop (but mages) for a few turns before you plan buying hydras, in order to save the upkeep costs. If you have 1000 gold and dom 8, wait till you have 2000 gold to buy 8 hydras in one turn for instance. The upkeep of hydras staying idle in the capital is huge.

Re: Poison Resistant Troops
 

quantum_mechani, Sombre will love you for that.

Re: Poison Resistant Troops
 

Ironhawk: The easy answer is 'undead'. IIRC, the Renatus can get to Death-2 on its own. That allows Death-3.

Unfortunately, Kydnides aren't PI, or they'd be pretty good. I note Sea Trolls are PI. That more or less covers water.

Nature, there's the ever-popular Vine Ogres. You can also leverage your Priests to Nature-4 with a few Astral pearls. Once there, you can get Lamias.

Re: Poison Resistant Troops
 

Yeah I considered undead for a while with the mage you describe. It is a good choice but the prob there is gems. Will take me some time to drum up enough death gem income to keep a steady supply of undead chaff.

Lamias! Now there is something I hadn't considered. Yeah I will have to look into that. I was playing around with Clay Men last night - they werent bad, but werent very good, either.