Jotunheim MA Guide
 

The forum community is so helpful, I thought I should try and give something back. So here's my initial draft for Jotunheim MA. Feel free to post constructive criticism, and additional strategies or pretender designs.

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Overview

Jotunheim is arguably the weakest race of giants, however, that doesn't make them powerless by any stretch. In general, giants have low offensive power due to their large size and small numbers, and they are easily swarmed. Jotunheim's PD is quite weak for this reason. Unlike Niefelheim, the Jotunheim giants do not have a chill aura, so you cannot rely on area effects to do the killing for you.

Jotunheim has good magic diversity, but no natural access to Air, Earth, or Fire. There are some old age issues, but access to nature and blood magic so this can be mitigated. The strength of this nation is in the power of its commanders rather than its national troops. Vaetti Hags make excellent cheap researchers and Jotun Jarls and Skrattis make very good thugs. In order to secure a strong early game, players need access to multiple forts and need to start their blood economy as soon as possible.

National Features

Units

Vaetti Goblin - Good
These units are very good for the price, and can share a square with your giants increasing the offensive power of your front line. In the long run they are just chaff, but they are also stealthy so when magic starts to rule the battlefield you can use them as raiders.

Wolf Rider - Mediocre
These units are a bit too expensive to be useful at 20 gold each. They are stealthy and make good flankers, but they are too fragile to spend lots of money on.

Moose Riders - Bad
When you look at the Moose Rider, its stats are impressive. High HP, two 16 damage melee attacks, 2 short bows, and stealthy. However, their stats do not reflect their usefulness. The melee attacks have a very high miss rate, and Moose Riders cost the equivalent of 4.5 independent archers. These units are just too costly to use as standard ranged troops or as raiders. It's a great idea, but it just doesn't turn out to be all that practical.

Jotun Militia - Bad
They are big and can take a good deal of punishment, but that's about it.

Jotun Javelinist - Good
Giants make good javelineers due to their high strength, and Javelinists have similar stats to other giants but are less expensive in terms of gold and resources.

Jotun Hurler - Mediocre
These units have a niche role in a siege, but they are not very good on the battlefield due to their awful defense value.

Jotun Spearman - Mediocre
They are big and can take a good deal of punishment, but they're not that powerful offensively. They have higher protection and lower defense than Huskarls.

Jotun Axeman - Mediocre
They are big and can take a good deal of punishment, but they're not that powerful offensively. They have higher protection and lower defense than Huskarls.

Jotun Huskarl - Mediocre
You get your choice of axe or spear. The axe does quite a bit more damage but the spear is longer. These guys are not bad, they will hold the line but they aren't that powerful offensively.

Jotun Hirdman - Good
These are your best national troops, which isn't saying a whole lot. They will hold the line, but they aren't that powerful offensively.

Jotun Woodsman - Mediocre
They're very useful for early expansion due to their 9 resource cost, but the lack of a shield really hurts these units. They are not really suitable for a strong bless strategy and since they are capital only you don't want to rely on them beyond the first 10-15 turns.

Commanders

Chief - Mediocre
Stealthy commander for leading goblins, wolves, and moose into enemy territory. However, Vaetti Hags are also stealthy, so you may go the whole game never recruiting one of these.

Jotun Scout - Good
Jotun Scouts come with javelins, but you'll probably rely on independent scouts since recruiting other commanders in your forts is more important.

Jotun Herse - Good
This sacred unit makes a good thug if you have someone to bless him. However, the Jarl is generally considered more useful because he can bless himself. If you do not have any bless, then the Herse is significantly cheaper to recruit in numbers.

Jotun Jarl - Great
The Jarl has all the makings of a thug right out of the barracks and is a level 1 priest so he can bless himself. Once you research the necessary spells Skratti generally make better thugs, but Jarls can still lead more troops (Leadership 80).

Jotun Gode - Good
Similar to the Jarl, but massively more expensive for an extra level of holy. Jarls are generally better unless gold is not an issue.

Vaetti Hag - Great
These units have 1 random pick of Astral, Blood, Death, or Nature. They are also stealthy, so you can lead small raiding parties with them. One of the interesting things about Vaetti Hags is that you don't need a lab to build them because technically they don't have a magic path until after they are recruited. This allows you to build a fort, recruit a Hag, and then use that Hag to build the lab. However, more important than any of that, Vaetti Hags are very efficient researchers for their cost and you want to build as many as possible for that purpose.
Astral - Site Search with Arcane Probing. Excellent combat support with Body Ethereal, Luck, Star Fires
Blood - Can forge Dousing Rods and blood hunt
Death - Site Search with Dark Knowledge. Command 30 undead, and use Animate Dead or Frighten

Nature - Can cast protection in combat, with a Thistle Mace can site search with Haruspex and make useful equipment such as Rings of Regeneration, Eye Shields, etc.

Jotun Skratti - Great
The Skratti is a very interesting and complicated unit. They are Blood 2, Water 2 and get 1 random pick of Blood, Death, Nature, Water. In general, Skrattis are good offensive mages with Cold Bolt and Frozen Heart, and make decent thugs with Breath of Winter, Quicken Self and the ability to shapeshift into a Jotun Werewolf. This shape changing ability makes them extremely versatile, but can be difficult to use correctly.
Blood Pick - The Blood 3 Skrattis are good for starting up your blood economy due to their 90% chance of finding slaves. Once you forge some dousing rods you can turn the blood hunting over to the Vaetti Hags while you summon Frost Fiends or forge equipment. A blood 3 Skratti with boosters can cast the global enchantment Illwinter without having to empower.
Death Pick - I can't think of anything particularly unique about Skrattis with death magic. Generally the least useful of the 4 possible combinations.
Nature Pick - Nature Skrattis with a water booster can make clams.
Water Pick - The Water 3 Skrattis can cast Wolven Winter to lower the temperature of provinces you intend to invade. They can also cast Falling Frost in combat.

Shapeshifting:

Jotun Werewolf - Jotun Werewolves are the "thug" form of the Skratti. They have about 50 hit points, retain all their equipment slots, lose 1 in all their magic paths, regenerate 6 hit points per round, have forest survival, and leadership 40. Water 1 is enough to cast Breath of Winter and Quicken Self and do some decent damage on the battlefield, and the ability to boost leadership from 10 to 40 can be very helpful at times. If you change shape from a Skratti to a Werewolf in combat, you will exit combat as a Jotun Wolf and lose all your equipment except your 2 miscellaneous slots. Make sure if you plan to fight that you shapeshift ahead of time. In werewolf form you want to script Quicken Self->Breath of Winter->Attack Rear.

Jotun Wolf:
Jotun Wolves are the "travel" form of the Skratti. They have a mapmove of 3 with forest survival, and stealth. However they have no magic, and have about half the hit points of the werewolf form. Their leadership stays at 40, but they lose all their equipment slots except 2 miscellaneous slots. If you shapeshaft into a wolf in combat, you exit combat the next turn as a werewolf.

Example Skratti setups:

The order in which a Skratti shape shifts is Skratti->Werewolf->Wolf->Skratti, so if you are in werewolf form and you want to get back to Skratti form, you have to shift through wolf form first. This means you will lose all your non-misc equipment. It may take awhile to get used to this, so when you're first using Skratti as thugs your only "safe" slots are the 2 misc slots, so just stick with a Ring of Regeneration and a Pendant of Luck. As you learn to use Skratti, you can begin outfitting them fully. The werewolf form has particularly low protection and defense, so boosting those is a priority. To increase the survivability of your Skratti, team him up with an Astral Vaetti Hag. The Hag can buff the Skratti with Body Ethereal and Luck before he attacks, making him into a very formidable thug. Vaettis can also hold the combat gear while he shifts through wolf form to get back to a Skratti.

Gygja - Good
These units have random picks in Astral, Blood, Death, and Nature. Statistically it is possible to get level 4 magic on a Gygja but it is not likely. You will have to recruit many of them to get the paths you want, and you should forge Boots of Youth for the ones you want to keep around due to the risk of afflictions from old age. Gygjas are versatile battle mages with early spells like Mind Burn, Raise Dead, etc. or they can sit in your capital and increase unrest with spells like Rain of Toads, Baleful Star, etc. In the late game, Gygjas with an astral pick can be very dangerous due to Nether Bolt and Nether Darts. Gygjas have good prospects for boosting their paths through items due to the synergy of the magic; you can make Moonvine Bracelets and Armor of Twisted Thorns in addition to the traditional path boosters. Gygjas are capital only, so as soon as possible you want to dedicate your capital to Gygja production so that you increase your chances of getting the paths you need for the mid and late game.

Scale Design

Dominion - 6+
Jotunheim needs good scales, so high dominion is necessary to spread them. It's somewhat important to spread your cold scale into enemy territory, however the alteration spell Wolven Winter can also do that for you. At least Dominion 6 is recommended.

Order - 3
Jotunheim pretty much requires order 3 because your units are expensive, and you need a lot of extra gold to build fortifications for Vaetti Hags.

Sloth - 3
You can afford to take a hit here for the points. Money is generally in shorter supply than resources even with sloth 3.

Cold - 3
Even though Jotunheim prefers cold 2, you should take cold 3 for the extra points

Growth - 1
Growth scale is a matter of personal preference, although your Gygjas and Hags are susceptible to old age and you are a blood nation so I wouldn't take death. Growth 1 is usually sufficient.

Luck - 0
Jotunheim can benefit greatly from luck. They have excellent heroes (Angerboda is 3S 3D 2N 3B), and Jotunheim has trouble with air, earth, and fire sites so the extra gem income is very helpful. Take as much as you can afford, but don't make it a priority.

Magic - 1
The +1 research from magic 1 comes in very handy for Jotunheim. Your Vaetti Hags are very efficient researchers for the price, and since you will have so many of them, the research bonus is to your advantage.

Pretender Design

Things to consider:
Jotunheim has no access to Air, Earth, or Fire magic, so you may want to take a pretender that can fill this gap. At least Earth 2 so you can forge Earth Boots and then Dwarven Hammers.
Jotunheim has a little trouble site searching so you may want an awake rainbow pretender to get an early start. Finding water and earth sites are of particular importance.
Jotunheim's sacred troops are underwhelming, but the sacred commanders make excellent thugs. It may be useful to have multiple weak blesses such as Nature 4, Fire 4, Water 4, or Earth 4. As you learn to rely on Skrattis over Jarls, this will become less important.
Jotunheim needs good scales to be effective, and high dominion to spread them.

Considering all these points, a cheap rainbow pretender such as the Crone is a good choice for learning how to play Jotunheim the first time. Try something like:

Crone (Awake)
Dominion 6
Order 3
Sloth 3
Cold 3
Growth 1
Luck 3
Magic 1

Earth 4
Death 1 (Crone starts with this)
Nature 4

Expansion

For early expansion, you should recruit the Jotun Woodsmen because their low resource cost allows you recruit about 5 per turn. Your starting army plus ~10 Jotun Woodsmen should be able to wipe out most strength 5 independents without taking any losses. You want to quickly build a 2nd army consisting of a Jotun Jarl, about 5 Jotun Woodsmen, some Vaetti Goblins, and 10-20 independent archers (based on what is available). Depending on your bless, this army should be able to take out most of the weak and moderate independent provinces without any losses. As you get farther from your capital you want to ditch the Jotun Woodsmen for Jotun Hirdmen which are available everywhere. However, your national troops are not that impressive, so supplement them with independent archers, summons, or some magical support. As a nation of giants, you have access to giant soulless and longdead. One way to leverage this is to summon a Mound King and make him your prophet. As an undead priest he can reanimate for you relatively early in the game. A Vaetti Hag can lead 30 undead and 10 normal units and makes for a very cheap expansion army.

You should be recruiting Vaetti Hags in your capital until you have at least 1 Death Hag and 1 Astral Hag for site searching. Money permitting, you should then switch to Gygjas because you'll have to recruit a lot of them before getting ones with strong magic in a single path. Get a 2nd fort up as soon as possible so that you can recruit both Gygjas and Hags. As soon as your gold income starts to stabilize, recruit a blood 3 Skratti (or you might already have a blood 3 Gygja) and start blood hunting. Once you have some slaves, forge dousing rods and let your Vaetti Hags take over.

Jotunheim has access to excellent province unrest spells such as Rain of Toads, Baleful Star, etc. They also have decent raiding capability in the form of stealthy wolf riders and goblins. A mix of economic warfare with plentiful thugs should keep you going until you get to the powerful blood summons. You should be able to transition from a gold economy to a blood economy more quickly than most other nations, and from there you have a good chance at victory.

Research Order

Useful Spells:
Alteration - Body Ethereal (3), Protection (3), Luck (4), Wolven Winter (4), Frozen Heart (6)
Evocation - Cold Bolt (1), Nether Bolt (4), Falling Frost (5), Ice Strike (7), Nether Darts (7)
Enchantment - Breath of Winter (1), Animate Dead (1), Raise Dead (3)
Thaumaturgy - Frighten (1), Mind Burn (2), Paralyze (4)

Enchantment 1 and Alteration 4 is enough to get your Skratti Thugs up and running
Conjuration 2 and Evocation 2 gets your site searching started

Once your basic needs are met you need to start researching Construction to outfit your Jarls and Skrattis and make Dousing Rods. Once you get construction 6, you may want to switch to blood or evocation depending on what you want to focus on. An example research order could be:

Enchantment 1
Alteration 4
Evocation 2
Construction 4 or Conjuration 2
Then focus on Construction, Evocation, or Blood as needed. You can also get Mother Oak at Alteration 5 if it hasn't already been cast.

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EDIT (11-19-2007)
Added Reanimation strategy using Mound King prophet
Provided a more specific research order and list of useful spells
General revisions based on feedback

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EDIT (11-15-2007)
Updated Moose Riders
Updated Vaetti Hags
Updated Skratti and shapeshifting
Provided a more concrete pretender design
General revisions based on feedback

Re: Jotunheim MA Guide
 

Cool write up. I haven't been inspired to take up the giants yet, I've got a couple questions/ideas.

I love the idea of the moose riders, but (in my extremely limited attempts) I haven't been able to make them cost effective. Seems like their large size counteracts their archer concentration and they're so expensive. Have you been able to wrangle some good use from them?

Seems like the Skratti has some good thugging potential to with being able to change into a giant werewolf. High HP & regeneration, cast Breath of winter, quicken self, - blood vengeance if you get real fancy. You can even use sabbath slave in conjunction with Gygjas casting communion master to get buffs ranging from luck to soul vortex onto your giant were-wolves. Haven't tried that out, but sounds pretty wicked in theory.

Seems like the giant have some pretty nice longdead, any particularly good way to leverage that?

Re: Jotunheim MA Guide
 

The Skratti do make nice thugs, better than the Jarls once you've got a little research. Send them out in werewolf form though. If you have them change shape in battle they'll change to wolf form afterwards and all but your misc. items will go poof.
I thought the Skratti had WDBN randoms? Or is that only in another era?

Vaetti hags are probably my favorite cheap mages. They just have the 100% random, so you don't need a lab to build them. You usually want one, unless there's another very close, but it's convenient to just use a scout to build the fort, when it's done recruit a hag and let her build the lab.
The nature ones are still useful. You just have a Gygja build one thistle mace and then the Hags can site search and make more maces as needed.

Re: Jotunheim MA Guide
 

and what's about the wolf form of Skratti ? What's use of this shape ?

Re: Jotunheim MA Guide
 

I believe they have a higher strategic move rate. Also, I think they have either forest survival or something like that that they don't have in their normal form. This allows them to pass through forest terrian unhindered.

Jazzepi

Re: Jotunheim MA Guide
 

If its the same as EA, 3 map movement (vs 2), forest survival, and stealth. So, its best for moving them around the map, and not so useful in combat.

Re: Jotunheim MA Guide
 

You need to be careful. I think you lose ALL gear if you shapeshift into a form without an already occupied slot, like a hand slot.

Jazzepi

Re: Jotunheim MA Guide
 

I disagree completely about moose riders. They are damn near useless in melee and make rubbish archers. The only real use I can think of for them is with their size they might soak up some spells meant for better targets. But since most of your stuff will be Jotuns, I don't see how that will work out too well either. They are certainly far worse than wolf riders, who make decent flankers.

Re: Jotunheim MA Guide
 

I agree on the uselessness of moose riders(but they are nice to look at), and I think javelineers are quite good, they often deal a lot of damage in 2 rounds.(used on a flank)
More important, you've got no practical access to archer buff spells, so archers aren't going to win your day.
This makes javelineers mores interesting because they deal quite a punch in melee.

Re: Jotunheim MA Guide
 

Yeah, I used quite a few javelineers. They seemed to hold up as well as the other giants in melee, plus the initial javelins before the lines closed. Since they're strength based they get good range and damage.

Hirdmen, Javelineers and Vaetti were my main armies. I didn't use enough Vaetti. They are better than they look. And cheap. and stealthy.

Woodsmen, even blessed, are too vulnerable to arrows.

Re: Jotunheim MA Guide
 

For best combat effectiveness, the Vaetti infantry should be mixed with the size 4 giants. You'll have to make a bit of a grafty combat placment since the Vaetti and Giants have different AP values, but a giant sharing his square with two vaetti is three times more dangereous than alone giant.

Even if the Vaetti don't manage to deal any damage in melee, their attacks will cause the opponents defence to go down. It also makes the giant much more resistant to ganging sice opposing attacks get separated between the giant and vaettis.

Re: Jotunheim MA Guide
 

Good replies, everyone. I'm going to make some changes to the guide based on your comments, and I'm also going to try out some of the concepts in which I don't have first hand experience. Not sure when that'll happen, maybe a couple days.

Re: Jotunheim MA Guide
 

Baalz: I tried some moosery in enemy territory but I couldn't quite make it work. The Moose Rider's stats don't reflect their combat performance. The bite and kick are damage 16, but you're lucky if they ever hit anything. If you're fighting against weak PD (Giants, Monkeys, units with no shields, etc) you'll do fine and you can also beat most PDs of 1, but you're investing 500 gold into raiding. It just doesn't turn out to be practical.

But if you want to have fun, the Death Hags can frighten or skelly spam while the Meese shoot. Astral Hags don't work out that well.

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Mathusalem: I wrote up a more comprehensive Skratti guide, let me know if that helps answer your questions

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I also incorporated the comments from several other posts. Thanks, guys.

Re: Jotunheim MA Guide
 

It's a pity the meeses don't have shields or protection or decent defense. But they're size four and have more hitpoints than Skratti. Perhaps a few would make a decent decoy if Skratti entered as Steatlhy wolf-form, scripted a change form to Jotun.

Re: Jotunheim MA Guide
 

The Skratti Werewolf form actually has one less in each path, so it can have either 2 Water or 2 Blood, depending on the randoms. I usually used the 3W2B Skrattis as thugs, since they'd lose less fatigue casting.

And the thugs would just stay in Werewolf form, so I had no problem equipping them.

Re: Jotunheim MA Guide
 

But, don't they have three forms?

When do they switch to werewolf, Jotun Wolf, and Skratti?

Re: Jotunheim MA Guide
 

They have three forms. They switch when you select "change shape" out of battle or when you script them to change shape in battle. In order, Skratti->Jotun Werewolf->Jotun Wolf->Skratti.

I've never seen one change in battle without it being scripted.

The problem is that if you script them to change from Skratti to Jotun Werewolf in battle, they will change to a Wolf after the battle, losing most of their gear.

So I just change the thugs to Werewolves before battle and send them in that way, scripted to buff and attack.

Re: Jotunheim MA Guide
 

Have a scout accompany the stealth wolf form with equipment, then change wolf--->werewolf, transfer equipment to werewolf and attack current province. Give equipment to scout, change to wolf and go on hide to avoid incoming retribution.

Then move to another province. Rinse repeat...for an extremely annoying raiding thug/SC.

Re: Jotunheim MA Guide
 

What is the opinion on Jotunheims PD? Someone just implied that giant PD is very bad, but the manual said that Jotunheim has the best in the game. If the PD sucks, why does it suck?

-Ubercat

Re: Jotunheim MA Guide
 

It consists mostly of Giant Milita, who have terrible morale and attack values. Plus there is very few of them per point of PD (1/2 i think). They can't hit anything, and whole Jotun PD will rout after a few combat rounds due to casualties and low morale.

Re: Jotunheim MA Guide
 

Because you only get a few of them (1/2 per point), they are low skilled (att/def) low protection militia.

They do have high hps, but they're easy to hit and hurt so they die fast. They're size 4, so they get swarmed easily reducing the already low defence.
They hit hard, if they hit, but they've got low attack skill so they don't hit and they're size 4, so they can't gang up to reduce the target's defence.

They're morale isn't great and they seem to break even more easily, possibly due to low numbers.

At 20+ they get javelineers who are better and will do some damage with their javelins, but by the time they close the militia will have broken. You get a Jarl, who, if you've got a good bless, could probably win the fight himself, but will stand in the back and wait to run away.

What I don't understand is why anyone ever thought the Giant's PD was good. It was lousy back in Dom2, it's about the same now.

Re: Jotunheim MA Guide
 

I would much rather have 1 Vaetti Goblin per point and 1 Jotun Militia per 1/2 or 1/4 point up to 20.

Re: Jotunheim MA Guide
 

Poor Iron Woods, the weakest age of the giants. The early era has the fearsome Neifel Giants and mighty skinshifters, the late era has the efficient seithkona. Iron woods OTOH has the Vaetti Hag.

Anyway, a few notes (some of these have been noted before):

1. As you mention Hurlers can be excellent when facing a nation with strong castles. Keeping them alive can be moderatly difficult (place them far in back) but their ability to crack fortresses is solid (each destroys 9 points of defence value per turn, vs. 4 for a normal Jotun). They are also light on resources so they can be massed quickly.

2. All Jotun troops become far more fearsome with a little experience. A bonus of +1 to attack means enemy troops die considerably more quickly. A Jotun with +2 attack is deadly.

3. A fire bless is excellent on all Jotuns. A F4 bless is usually sufficient (along with the required N9 bless) and converts the woodsman/leaders into machines which kill 1 troop per turn.

4. The Skratti is the bread and butter of Iron woods. In werewolf form they are devestating with just armor of souls, a luck pendant, and (perhaps) boots of the messanger they are (almost) tireless killing machines.

Re: Jotunheim MA Guide
 

Baalz: I was finally able to get some undead giants. They have around 45 HP, a Jotun Axe with no shield, high strength, fairly low protection and defense, 6 MR. It might be possible use some of your Death Gygjas to summon an undead army, but I'm not sure if it's worth the effort.

Re: Jotunheim MA Guide
 

Hmmm, are there any (non national) summons which can raise free undead?

Re: Jotunheim MA Guide
 

Mound Fiend can reanimate, right?

Re: Jotunheim MA Guide
 

mound fiend, yes. If your nation has undead to reanimate...

Re: Jotunheim MA Guide
 

Iron Woods may be the weakest age of the giants, but they're still my favorite.

Neifelhiem is too focused on the Neifels. They are so good, that they demand to be used and demand a strong bless. Every thing else seems to get short shrift in EA.

And Utgard is Ok, but less focused on the giants. The human troops are better in general as are the human mages.

And as I've said before, I really like the Vaetti hags. Cheap efficient researchers, blood hunters, site searchers, communion slaves. They're all useful. Did I mention they're stealthy?

The Jotun army does lack punch though. The EA skinshifters would be a great addition and go a long way to covering that weakness. They tend to get overshadowed by the Neifels, but would really shine in Iron Woods.

Re: Jotunheim MA Guide
 

I'll try out the Mound Fiend in the game I'm playing and let you know. Also, I was only partially correct about the undead. The soulless have 45 HP, a Jotun Axe with no shield, high strength, fairly low protection and defense, 6 MR. The longdead have 25 HP, but a longspear and shield, 13 protection, 9 defense, 10 MR. Still not great, but quite a bit more durable against regular troops.

EDIT: The Mound Fiends can animate longdead giants, but for every giant you get 5 or 6 normal longdead. So it's not really something you can mass easily. (About as easy as massing Vine Ogres) At 28 death gems per Mound Fiend it's not really worth it. However, if you were going to summon Mound Fiends anyway (like to counter C'tis' Miasma) then why not take advantage of it.

Re: Jotunheim MA Guide
 

As an alternative, the manual states (and my experience at least has confirmed) that any Undead Priest can Reanimate Undead. That being the case, you can summon up a Shade or a Mound King simply to prophetize them to reanimate undead.

This would get the 'factory' started much earlier than waiting for a Mound Fiend.

Re: Jotunheim MA Guide
 

That's actually a great idea =) Kudos on a very original strat!

Re: Jotunheim MA Guide
 

Not that its valid for Niefelheim, but that same trick also works on demons. I had some experiments with Yomi a while back.

As well, LA Atlantis has W3D?1 priest-mages available at the capital. Cast twiceborn, get them killed off - in your dominion- and then you've got upkeep-free reanimation machines.. Lose the special abilities like sailing, thoguh.

Re: Jotunheim MA Guide
 

I don't think reanimating is a big enough deal to warrant anything special to get it. For Niefel it might be though. I know with the cbm version of the Reanimation spell (which doesn't cost 10 gems, it's 2 or something) that it's actually worth using for them.

Re: Jotunheim MA Guide
 

I totally agree with this. The icebergs are so powerful (almost solely due to the frost aura) that they take up all of the gold for EA.

I don't know about that. The giants are still pretty tough. Especially the leaders if you take a bless.

I don't know. The hags with astral and blood are very useful. However the nature and death ones are marginal, they are researchers. And they are old which is moderatly nasty especially for a unit with just one path.


Wow. If MA got skinshifters that would be a great change (or if both MA and LA got them). Such a great unit would finally get its day in the sun.

Re: Jotunheim MA Guide
 

Both the nature and death hags can do site searching and a lot of the grunt forging/casting work. They just need a Gygja to make one skull staff or thistle mace first. Then they can make more as needed.

I'll agree that the Jotun leaders make good thugs even in Utgard, but the regular troop giants are underpowered.

Re: Jotunheim MA Guide
 

I rather like the idea of turning a Mound King into your prophet. In general I don't have any prophet specific strategies and even if the # of undead giants you get is low, you still have all these Vaetti Hags that can command 30 undead.

10 giants, 30 undead, and a Hag that spams Frighten makes for a pretty nice low upkeep/low supply army and if you get wiped out the Vaetti can just sneak away and leave the undead behind.

Anyway, I've updated the guide one last time with all the posts since 11-15. Thanks again for all the help and the good comments!

Re: Jotunheim MA Guide
 

Sector: Just verified that yes, my idea works. Of course, you have the trade-off of having a Black Servant being your prophet (and thus being stealthy but unable to lead troops) vs. a Mound King. Just FYI.

Re: Jotunheim MA Guide
 

The use is that GIANT WOLVES are REALLY COOL. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Re: Jotunheim MA Guide
 

hmm just wrote this to someone asking a question, might as well share my opinion with the world though:

OK I've read the thread on MA Jotun and it seems good, no advices that seem strange (some guide do have those)

http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/showthread.php?t=36836

Anyway I can't say much for end game Jotun play but I've tried an idea of my own and it worked pretty well.

Awake cyclops, dominion 9

9 earth magic

Order 3, Sloth 3, Cold 3, Death 1, misfor. 1, Magic 1

I would try this one and then also try the one the creator fo the guide uses and maybe even a dual bless.

If you use 1 bless then earth is always a good option and for an earth bless the cyclops is always the best choice.

a few things: with sloth 3 you can get few troops the first turns so you MIGHT also try S 2 and misfortune 2 for a bit better start. The misfortune will be more of a problem in the long run so if you doubt it when testing I'd go for the one above.

recruit a vaetti hag first turn and a few of the sacreds (as much as possible) 2nd turn you recruit a gode and some more woodsmen.

I've quite some experience with awake cyclopses and I'll share this with you: a dominion 9 cyclops with 9 earth magic has 29 prot and awe 0. this is good. once you see the lands surrounding your capitol (turn 2 that is) he should be able to expand.

Be carefull with him (also experiment with this in your test game it will be usefull in much MP games since you'll probably use the cyclops often) he can take most lvl 5 str indies. but ALWAYS attack the weakest you can find. NEVER ATTACK barbarians of cavalry and be carefull if there are > 50 units (though if they are weak he usually can deal with them)

So your cyclops starts expanding.

turn 3 you will have about 6 woodsmen and a gode (set him on bless, bless, bless and the woodsmen around him on wait and attack except when there are lots fo archers and you want to rush the enemy) they should be able to attack weak surrounding province (basicly the same guide as for your cyclops, leave heavy cav and barbs alone, take them later in the game when you have bigger armies.

try to expand quickly getting more income. Buy vaetti hags or gygja's, your research won't be the best btw, prettty bad actually.
expand outward and not insist on taking the province near your capitol, if possible just take them later, they will be there those closer to the enemy won't.

If you encounter the enemy you either attack right away or offer a NAP. Attacking is a gamble but can be worth while. If you attack then just keep training troops and push for enemy capital. If you NAP all neighbours try to get a 2nd castle end of first year and a 3th maybe soon after so you can train a gygja and some vatti hags so you can get something of research going.

The awake SC should give you a decent expansion by himself, all the troops do is bonus. Just be carefull with him and try to get him a magic weapon (his fist weapon really sucks and a shield before taking on the stronger provinces) I usually for get that I must admit but it improves his combat abilities. Once all indies are gone he can research, site search or throw bladewinds in battle etc etc

As the guide says try to set up a blood econ there are good guide on that on the board (and in the strat index I think)

Mixing vaetti with the woodsmen might be a good idea (as the guide says) personally I think the gygja can do manual site searching pretty well if you have one with 2x2 and 1 or 3 and 2 in paths. )or even better the rare 2,2,2

All I could find out in this (damn) 30 min (bedtime for me) but I think it's actually all you need. you'll just need to try the different start and see what suits you best. (especially experiment with what a certain number of sacreds can take and what not, same for the cyclops)

Re: Jotunheim MA Guide
 

I wonder what are the opinion WRT to MA Jotun and dual bless?- Is it considered a sound strategy?

If so, what are the "best" bless path pairs?- I know E9N9 is very popular for giants, for obvious reasons.

How about W9N9?- You'd say fatigue will kill you and that's right, unless I plan for equipping Jarls with reinvig items. Or plan for short battles, or rush to relief.

How about F9 and either E/N/W 9?

What about S,D and B probably not worth it. Twist fate is useful for low HP sacreds (though MR bonus is good). Affliction chance and death weapons are good for deterring SCs, but I'm not certain its solid enough for a game plan. Strength bonus is mostly irrelevant for the giants.

Any opinions are welcome :)

Re: Jotunheim MA Guide
 

I haven't played MA Jotun in a long time, but a dual bless doesn't seem to be worthwhile. You really don't have any decent sacred troops (in the long run), so the only folks to benefit from your bless will be commanders. Jarls, mainly. So what can you get them with a dual bless? Well ... not much that you can't also get with the right magical equipment.

I think the OP's strategy of Good Scales is a better choice. E9 is always a good bless, because it adds to whatever armor & reinvig you can provide with magical items. Also, your E9 pretender can cast Forge of the Ancients to beef up your magical item assembly line. So I might go for E9 -- or for two minor blesses -- but I wouldn't go higher than that.

Then again, there's no substitute for experience. Try a dual-blessed MA Jotun and let us know how it works!

Re: Jotunheim MA Guide
 

You're right. No substitute for experience. Has someone tried dual bless MA Jotun?- How did it go?

I know OPs strat. is solid b/c I've played MA jotum similarly in the past. I'm researching other possibilities. As for magical equipment, it takes longer to get it while bless effect is there from day 1. Also equipment can supplement bless for even better performance.

Dual bless with imprisoned pretender can even have solid scales.

Re: Jotunheim MA Guide
 

Dual double bless is probably overkill. The woodsmen just aren't good enough to spend the points on. For commanders E9 is certainly worth it and maybe another minor bless. If you're focused on Jarls, regen from Nature is nice. If you're using Skratti werewolves in Shrouds, I'd try E9 maybe S6. Leaves them at 0 encumbrance even quickened. Extra MR always helps thugs.

The nice thing is that both the Earth and Astral are useful paths. The Gygja's already have good nature. You'll have an astral income by the time the pretender breaks free and access to rings is always good.

Re: Jotunheim MA Guide
 

"The woodsmen just aren't good enough to spend the points on"
Why?- B/C they are capital only or b/c their stats aren't that good?- or maybe both?

So basically what I hear is E9 is a solid bless that can benefit Jotun commanders greatly. E9N9 or E9W9 doesn't make enough of a difference to be worth the setup cost. right?

Re: Jotunheim MA Guide
 

They're capital only, low protection, unshielded, large, one attack. Their only real advantage is lots of hp.
Defense is OK, but they're size 4 so they get swarmed.
I use them to expand. Against indies they do pretty well, backed up by Vaetti. Even against the AI, they're alright. In MP, they'll die.

Re: Jotunheim MA Guide
 

I'd do E9/N4 or E9/N6. You can still get rather good scales like that, and your Jarls with just a few cheap items become much stronger than people give credit for (imagine packs of 8-10 in the later game, probably with some mage support).

Re: Jotunheim MA Guide
 

My experience has been that once you become comfortable with the nation, Skratti are better than Jarls in a thug role. So if you want to be as efficient as possible, you don't want to spend your design points boosting your #2 unit. But if you plan to put shrouds on your skratti and you want a bless that benefits both jarls and skratti, earth is definitely the best.

Some people just like Jarls better, and some are turned off by the micro involved in handling Skratti. I haven't tested the equipment fix in the new version though, skratti may be easier to use now.

Re: Jotunheim MA Guide
 

There really isn't much micro using Skratti most of the time. You change them into werewolf form, put gear on them, script them with BoW & Quicken Self and send them off to kill.

If you want to use them as stealth thugs, you need to micro. Another stealth unit with them to carry gear. But that's a bonus option, something the Jarls can't do at all.

And my Jarls seem to miss themselves with their bless about half the time.

Re: Jotunheim MA Guide
 

Can't I send the Skratti in their giant form, thus gaining another life in battle?- Since when they die in this form they'll revert to their werewolf form.

Also, why can't Skratti with shroud benefit from W9 for instance. They get 50% quicker from the spell + 50% from bless. With amulet of resilience they should not rack up fatigue.

Mind you, all great advice so far, I'm just probing to learn as much as I can.

Re: Jotunheim MA Guide
 

Just tested. If the Skratti dies in its giant form it doesn't change shape. It stays dead.