Unkillable aircraft!!!
 

I've been playing the game for a few days now. Two things I noticed:
#1 It is VERY stable. No CTD like in SPWAW. Well done to the developers!!!

#2 Aircraft seem to be invincible and VERY deadly. I tried upping the accuracy of my German AA weapons, but that doesn't seem to help much. The P-51 Mustang seems to be a flying Tiger tank. NOTHING can shoot it down. And when it bombs tanks, even Panther tanks, they seem to have death rays attached to the bombs and destroy everything in sight. I tried turning all the US ratings to the lowest numbers and the German ratings to the highest numbers in the Preferences section, but even that doesn't help. Anyone else notice this? Any fix for it? I guess more hacking of files is in order.

Dep

Re: Unkillable aircraft!!!
 

Hi Deputy
Ive got to agree with this also, heres something of relevance from
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RS-82_rocket
"Like most unguided rockets, RS suffered from poor accuracy. Early testing demonstrated that, when fired from 500 m (1,640 ft), a mere 1.1% of 186 fired RS-82 hit a single tank and only 3.7% hit a column of tanks. RS-132 accuracy was even worse with no hits scored in 134 firings during one test. Combat accuracy was even worse since the rockets were typically fired from even greater distances. To further complicate the matters, RS-82 required a direct hit to disable light German armor with near-misses causing no damage. RS-132 could defeat medium German armor with a direct hit but caused almost no damage to light or medium armor with a near-miss. Best results were usually attained when firing in salvos against large ground targets."
These are the rockets mounted on the Sturmovic's
and from
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ilyushin_Il-2
"Although the Il-2's RS-82 rockets could destroy armored vehicles with a single hit, they were so inaccurate that experienced Il-2 pilots mainly utilized their cannon armament"
Bombs are obviously even less accurate again. And have a similar "near miss" no effect, ie they produce very little schrapnel. Many of the larger bombs appearing on fighter bombers in the game were I think never used against vehicles or AA weapons, but rather against larger area targets.
Best Regards Chuck.

Re: Unkillable aircraft!!!
 

I ran up a couple of test scenarios with P51s vs a gaggle of Panther G. Clear map visibility 90. In both L3s come in to spot on turn 1 followed by 2 flights of 3 Mustangs with rockets on turn 2.

My observations would suggest that the rockets are not Panther killers (1 kill 1 disable out of 20 runs) and that Flak gunners seem to be drinking a lot of schnapps (the bird dogs get whacked every time but I only had 2 Mustangs shot down out of about 20).

Re-ran the no flak scenario using B25s with 75mm, ffars and 500lb bombs. Even with a couple of direct 500lb hits, only 1 disabled Panther.

Re: Unkillable aircraft!!!
 

Chuck: I just updated WinSPWW2 with all the latest patches, and I didn't see any change/improvements as far as flak lethality or bombing/rocket effects being diminished. The FFAR rockets are essentially the same thing we used in Viet Nam. They were VERY inaccurate and were normally fired in salvos to get any kind of effect. Against armored targets, it would require a VERY lucky hit to get even damage to a tank, much less multiple kills. The 500 pound bomb is mainly an anti-personnel device, since as you state, the accuracy is even worse than the rockets. A direct hit with a 500 pound bomb probably would kill a Panther tank. It MAY make the ears ring for the crew of a King Tiger or other large tank. But achieving a direct hit with WW2 era bombing sights, while being shot at by flak units, should be a rare thing indeed.

Dep

Re: Unkillable aircraft!!!
 

Good grief. It gets even worse. I am playing a scenario with German assault guns are assaulting a US-held town. I was in a hex NEXT TO a bazooka team. WHAM Assault gun destroyed with one shot. Okaaaaay. Lucky shot. I move another assault gun in the exact same spot. WHAM One shot and one kill. Good grief. These are early bazookas. They were notorious for bouncing off tanks rather than killing them so easily. I may change this bazooka team to a sniper team with those kind of results!!! I dunno how they set up these specs, but they are WAY OFF.

Re: Unkillable aircraft!!!
 

Hey Deputy - like yer icon http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif
Can you download the sample scenarios from my previous post and see what happens.

Re: Unkillable aircraft!!!
 

LOL...haven't figured out what to use for an icon yet so I grabbed the train one. I am also an O-Gauge train collector/operator. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif
I'll download those scenarios and give them a try. Thanks!!!
Otherwise, I enjoy the sima lot. I even ordered the CD version and the one for the modern SP.

Dep

Re: Unkillable aircraft!!!
 

For fun I set up a test game with 8 P-51's attacking a flat field full of StuG IV's. It was a very "target rich environment" with more than enough targets to test the theory . The Mustangs where a mix of B's and D's carrying rockets and bombs. After the attack, 1 P-51 retired from the game due to battle damage from the AAMG's fire of the StuG's and of the StuG IV's, one had 2 points of damage and another had 1 point of damage. None were destroyed. HARDLY "death rays attached to the bombs and destroy everything in sight" .

I then set up another test game with 3 companies of StuG IV's on a flat map being attacked by a dozen P-51's with good visibility ( 60 ), again a mix of rocket carrying D's and bomb carrying B's. The result was , once again, one P-51 retired from the game due to battle damage from the AAMG's fire of the StuG's . However, the P-51's did a little better this time around with one ( 1 ) destroyed StuG, and three with 2 points of damage and one with 6 points of damage but once again, not even close to "death rays attached to the bombs and destroy everything in sight"

I ran that second test a second time, The result this time was two P-51's retired due to AAMG damage, two StuG's received 2 points of damage and one StuG had 1 point of damage. None destroyed.

Ran the test AGAIN but this time with 8 German light flak guns added. 2 guns of each type available June 1944. Again with good visibility ( 63 )This time the aircraft were P-47's but if we are looking for "death rays attached to the bombs and destroy everything in sight" the P-47's will have them as well. This test ended up with 3 P-47's retired for battle damage and of the StuG's one was destroyed and 2 had minor battle damage. I hardly need point out , again, that none of these results in any way resembles "death rays attached to the bombs and destroy everything in sight" and in the last test 25% of the aircraft that attacked had to retire due to battle damage.

There is nothing wrong with the game.

As for the bazooka story, I've seen bazooka teams miss repeatedly. ( just did, in fact in a quick test game I set up ) and also hit and not penetrate but sometimes they get lucky ESPECIALLY when the target is in the adjacent hex. When you move armour adjacent to known AT teams without infantry support I'd say you got what you deserve.

Don

Re: Unkillable aircraft!!!
 

Well I tried Pat's scenario and knocked down one spotter aircraft and 1 P51 vs 1 Panther G disabled. I then made a scenario (I am new at this so couldn't do it as well as Pat did) with ALL Wirbelwinds. I had at least 15 of them in a 50x50 area in a central location. I had P-51s with FFAR rockets attack them. One P-51 went down in flames. Two Wirbelwinds were destroyed. A couple of P-51s were lightly damaged. I'm sure the damage factor of the planes is related to the weapons being used against it. The Wirbelwind is "only" a quad 20MM gun. Pat had 37MM guns in his scenario. I'm still not sure things are adjusted right with flak. I know flak isn't made to accurate like a direct fire round would be. But with that many bursts from that many guns, I would think the likelihood of more hits goes up. I am also surprised at the flak guns ineffectiveness against ground troops. The 40MM "Duster" flak gun Uncle Sam used in Nam was DEADLY with air bursts against ground units. It was a great way to break up a human wave attack. Yet in SPWW2 flak hardly fazes an infantry unit. The opposite is true in SPWAW. Flak wipes out infantry, depending on how high the realism is set in preferences.

As to the bazooka...if the game is going to be representative of real world performance, than the bazooka is WAY off. Read reports of it's performance in WW2. Heck, if you want to see what it really performed like, watch the end of Saving Private Ryan. They got it pretty realistic. You could be right on top of an armored vehicle and have it bounce off. It wasn't unusual to have to fire multiple hits to get a kill. I could maybe understand if the armored vehicle had it's tail to the bazooka. That would present it's weakest area. But I got killed with head-on shots.

Re: Unkillable aircraft!!!
 

Just today, in my WW2 Soviet long campaign, I provided the AI with a beautiful target - 6 KV1 nose to tail along a road, with SMG sections mounted on each, and some T-34 nearby who had just dismounted, but all a tight-packed horde. Complacent. moi? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif!.

Anyway, I got attacked by around 6 ME-109. Mixed rocketeers and bombers. Results were 1 KV routed with its main gun shot off, and 2 stuck with busted tracks and a point of damage. About a company of SMG gunners running for home with severe headaches, and 3-6 points of damage for most of them. 3 M5 halftracks and 2 ZSU-37 trucks damaged one plane a few points.

later, the remaining planes strafed my guard mortar battery, and a pair of SP-37mm nearby damaged one, while they did a point or so of damage to a guard mortar MRL truck.

Air is not an uber weapon in WW2, nor is flack a sky-sweeper.

But I should have gone tactical with that KV column a move or so earlier..

If you expect air around, then the best way to deal with them is to spread out a min of a hex apart.

Cheers
Andy

Re: Unkillable aircraft!!!
 

I think you're right Andy. As in WW2, spread out and hiding in trees. Although I'm not sure if trees actually provide "air cover" for armor.

I just received the CD full version of WinSPMBT today and after loading it in and installing the latest patches, I must say that I find the realism of aircraft ops as well as fire against ground troops much more realistic than the WW2 version. But I sure hate those Ruskie Frogfoot ground attack planes. The stuff they drop REALLY hurts http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/eek.gif

Re: Unkillable aircraft!!!
 

My only qualms with the aircrafts are the AI usually bunches all its air on one single target http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif
Anyway, air does so far most damage to me when attacking antitank guns and their soft-fleshed prime movers.

Re: Unkillable aircraft!!!
 

I do have some code built in so that the AI will use any air en masse, once in a while.

That is because air in driblets is merely irritating - but delivery in a single fire-blow is the most efficient use of airstrikes. (I often use 1 sacrificial air pass to locate target concentrations, whack the revealed flack with arty for a move or 3, then use the remaining 5 or so planes in one punch on a juicy looking area, especially against a defender.).

The recce value of planes is probably a major benefit in the game, so if you have been overflown then probably a quick move of any stuff you are hiding is a good idea to break LOS, on the off chance you have been spotted. Some of the units will have been, and will draw enemy arty, or your ambuscade avoided etc if the opponent is a human player.

Once you have battered down his flak with your arty, and the planes have free reign, then after the fireblow, a scheduling of a strafing pass per turn or so is great mainly for the recce effect. That is the advantage of SP-AAA as even the AI will move its motor AAA assets, making them more difficult to deal with by arty suppresion, and catching the planes with fire from the re-hidden hidden units later (hopefully).

WW2 air did not really have much KO effect on armour, the natural target for fighter-bombers is trucks or open-topped halftracks, especially ammo and POL carriers in the corps/division etc rear zone. Kill lots of tigers by cutting the jugular vein of the supply convoys.

cheers
Andy

Re: Unkillable aircraft!!!
 

Hi Mobhack
Actually Ive always been puzzled by the airstrike planes recce effect. Aside from possibly spotter planes there is no real life mechanism for a strike aircraft to send information on the enemies exact disposition to the relevant ground forces. A typoon may radio back to the ground FO after leaving the flak zone that he saw some vehicles at the edge of a wood, and the FO may just happen to be in touch with the relevant nearby coy commander but it is unlikely. And of course the game turns what is a pilots vague report of a fleeting glimpse at 500 mph into the exact position and type of units. It it would be much more relistic if strike aircraft had no spotting ability.
Best Regards Chuck.

Re: Unkillable aircraft!!!
 

This game is based on a "spotted" flag for each item on map. Always has been since it came out. If one thing spots something, all in LOS spot it.

The alternative would need an array of [max units] bytes added to every units data and more complex code - but you as the "player God" would still be able to call arty on things in the rear that the spotter had no knowledge of. (That is the reason e.g. for the arty calling rules in the WRG tabletop rules, that limit impromptu arty fires to within 500m of a spotted enemy unit, or of a terrain feature your troops are advancing towards to pass within 500metres and are within 100m of etc)

The sorts of games where Bill knows about Hanz, but Eric and Fred don't (not until he communicates the knowledge to them "hes over there"! - "Not Seen" "3 o'clock from the small bush, 10 metres" - "Not seen!" - "watch my tracer" - "Seen!") only works in skirmish type games with very few units. And I have only seen such implemented in tabletop games, if at all. (There may be multiple-player shooter type computer section-level games where each player plays one man where this happens? - an ideal genre for such anyway).

All other computer games use a "spotted/unspotted" binary state, as do bored games and tabletop games usually have the tropps on table (bar ambushes marked on a map), though some tabletop games used paper chits, some of which would be dummys.


Cheers
Andy

Re: Unkillable aircraft!!!
 

Hi Mobhack
very interesting
Not sure you have to go to all that trouble though, the Level bombers dont seem to spot much do they? maybe the air strikes could be given the same spotting ability as the level bombers? ie close to 0. Seems to me spotting ability can vary with class? ie spotting ability is maybe a variable?
Best Regards Chuck.

Re: Unkillable aircraft!!!
 

Bombers do not spot much - since they are way up high.

Planes spot, since they are down in the weeds, and need the ability to actually find targets..

Andy

Re: Unkillable aircraft!!!
 

Well I have no problems eating crow, and in this case I will do so gladly http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif. After more testing and game experience, I agree that the planes aren't carrying "death ray bombs and rockets". I apologize for making that idiotic statement. I think what happened was I had all the Preference setting set at maximum for the US, and when I played a scenario where the US was player two, I got clobbered. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/laugh.gif

I do have 2 questions concerning hiding from air power and spotting planes.
1. Spotting planes... If I have my units in trees, do spotting planes still "see" them all the time?

2.Is it even worth pulling off a road and hiding in trees to defend against air attacks? Or does any overhead plane "automatically" see every unit below them?

Re: Unkillable aircraft!!!
 

If you are hidden amongst blocking terrain, you may only get a strafing area attack.

Cheers
Andy

Re: Unkillable aircraft!!!
 

As Mobhack said, go make few tests and you'll see that on good visibility in the open, the planes do target individual units (accompanied by text messages), but when the visibility is bad or the units are in cover (trees, city etc.) the planes are just attacking hex in hope the FO that called them in that sector did call them on correct target and that there really is something worth strafing down there.

Re: Unkillable aircraft!!!
 

Hi Mobhack
I see,
So I gather then that it is actually "easy" to decrease airstrike spotting from a coding point of view?
All that remains is to establish wether it should be done or not.
Maybe you and I are are talking about two different mission types. Im talking about the mission where the ground FO calls in the plane to hit the enemy armour concentration hes identified in just the same way as he would call in an artillery strike. In both cases the information flow is one way. You may be talking about the "roaming" fighter bomber looking to identify its own targets. I think the roaming fighterbomber isnt really within the scope of the game as the maps arnt large enough. Opperating as close to the front line as it must to stay on these "small" maps he is just as likely to straff his own troops as the enemies, or get hit by friendly AA.
So I would think that most of the missions called in the game are Fo controlled and hence require no spotting ability from the airstrike plane. Assuming the target can be kept in FO sight.
I agree that the airstrike planes do need some spotting ability to pick up vehicles near to there targets or ones that may have just moved out of the FOs view, but I think they need less spotting ability than they now have, ie currently doubling as recce planes.
Another point I would add is that as pointed out by Deputy bombs are very inaccurate. For fighter bomber bombs there is probably an equal probability that the bomb will land in the hex before or after the target hex or even the hexes on either side of these, as on target.
Best Regards Chuck.

Re: Unkillable aircraft!!!
 

We have already established that the aircraft in the game are not carrying "death ray bombs and rockets" and "Deputy" has already retracted his comments. Ordnance dropped and fired from aircraft already do frequently land in the hex before or after the target and it's not unusual for them to land two hexes on either side of the target.

Don

Re: Unkillable aircraft!!!
 

It's very simple and better to test this yourself. Set up a test game where both sides are human, ignore the requests for passwords but you will have to save the game in a save slot. Set up player two with some units in the open as a test but set up others in the best concealment you can find then set up player ones spotting aircraft and airstrikes based on what you already know about P2's disposition ( attack areas with AND without enemy units ) then watch what is revelled when the airstrikes come in so use as big a map as possible so none of P1's ground units can see any of P2's units. When the air attack is over and the game goes to P2 you can check what you saw during the attacks against what the actual dispositions were then end P2's turn and recheck what P1 can now see then run the test a half dozen more times with different visibility and see the results.

Don

Re: Unkillable aircraft!!!
 

Freakin' JABO’s certainly are a pain, as they should be, but accept for bad tactical moves, such as bunching up units too much I've never had anymore problems than to be expected. The only thing that gets me is when the Enemy decides to call in several Sqdns of CAS. They can certainly suppress the hell out of a lot of units. However C'est l'guerre.

LAW’s in the game are nasty up close when they work, that is why infantry support is essential. Remember your vehicle is in a 50m hex so a frontal hit could be just as easy a track or vision slit. If I lose a panzer to a bazooka team I’d be hard pressed to counter it by moving another panzer in to counter it. Infantry or suppressing fire with arty or MG’s makes more sense.

Note to Chuck if your spotter planes are doing 500mph no wonder they can't spot anything!


Love this game, Prosit!

Re: Unkillable aircraft!!!
 

Second that. Especially useful for suppression is "Z-fire", IE blind area fire into a given hex. works well even if you don't have a direct LOS (say blocked by smoke or by wreck), if you mass enough units to that task - MMG/HMG units are good at it, ESPECIALLY those with three weapons http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

Re: Unkillable aircraft!!!
 

Hi Panzerbob
I am talking about fighter bombers flying at 500mph not spotter planes.
Spotter planes have a different problem, their photographs have to be returned to HQ developed made into maps etc, so spotter planes IMHO dont really belong in the game. I dont mean airiel FOs, which I believe the game doesnt have because of playbalance issues. The same reason I dont like the fighter bomber spotting ability.
Best Regards Chuck.

Re: Unkillable aircraft!!!
 

Atleast US troops in WWII made extensive use of light AOP aircrafts not only for arety spotting but also for frontline recon, the aircrafts being in direct radio contacts with units on pretty low level - online spottzing, no need to take and develop pics.

Re: Unkillable aircraft!!!
 

Hi Marek
Very interesting would you be able to expand on what a low level unit is?
The problem is obviously that enemy units spotted by Light AOP can easily turn out to be friendly and wont appreciate being fired on by there own arty etc. A commander at a "Low" level cant check the spotted units identity. you may as well send the info to someons who can, divisional staff.
Though in the game every unit knows everything on a battlefield you are a brave or a very well informed man to deviate from the plan. Or jump in with an "opportunity" attack.
All these things are normally coordinated from a higher level, the divisional staff, which is where I imagine all ariel recon is planned from and feeds its information into.
Best Regards Chuck.

Re: Unkillable aircraft!!!
 

Hi DRG
My apologies I am indeed sounding like a troll, bomb ordinance does miss and often. I stand corrected.
I also did a small test you may be interested in.
I mobhacked a sturmovic to carry 16 rs 82 rockets, with no other armamant and fired them all at 20 pz 3 spaced out one hex apart.
Now I got 48 hits from 320 rockets and this may be a big underestimate as the yellow message doesnt seem to refresh properly after a hit, so I discounted consecutive hits unless the little nearby "pen comparison" white message changed.
That gives a hit rate of 15.0 per cent the reference I sited in my origional post says this rocket has a hit rate of 1.1 percent, so maybe RS82 and possible other rocket accuracies are a little high?
Best Regards Chuck.

Re: Unkillable aircraft!!!
 

I believe that - considering all the arguments brought up - planes should be left as they are. AA guns may need improvement but this would have to include all autocannons so better leave them alone too.

Planes can be painful if they're turned against you. It depends a great deal, however, from which direction you're being attacked. If it's a frontal attack a tank will only be immobilized, which IMHO is reasonable if a bomb explodes close by, while even cannon shells can be lethal if they hit your rear. Also, the AI always seems to find great targets and blow up my loaded trucks, ammo dumps, etc... just my bad luck.

On the other hand - if I heavily bet on air and buy a squadron, I am almost always disappointed- if I use them carefully I get no effect and if I let them overfly the rear zone even the AI will get some of them down with massive AA... so I'd only buy a few and use them carefully, as well as take advantage of the spotter effect.

And yes, flak seems to be quite ineffective. First thing, rookies dont hit anything - but if you've ever tried to operate a manually aimed AA gun and tried to track an aircraft coming in low + fast then you'll understand... Only after gaining veteran status during long campaigns they become a little more useful and might even hit+disable something - but hardly ever shoot down. (And veterans dont build up quickly either for towed flak units - how do you get them making kills without getting them killed? Expose them to direct or indirect fire and they're gone).

Its the mass that counts. Playing the Soviets, for instance, I dont buy 37mm AA any more, I go for cheaper 3xDshK AAMGs to cover the whole area with them. If a unit fires, it has 3 shots... you can do the maths. Damage is less but the 37mm also doesnt shoot down a lot with 1 hit - I'm satisfied if the damn planes dont gome again anyways.

While in WinSPMBT, 2-4 radar-controlled guns 'deny' the whole airspace to helos + are a serious threat to planes, manually aimed guns are a different matter. You will need several batteries to cover that same map and still get a lower hit chance. I experimented a lot and have never been able to completely 'deny' a certain map area to enemy plases, which is quite easy to do in MBT.
Also, they're really relatively ineffective against infantry in the open (even if infantry is moving)- might score some damage once in a while but all said, not much better that a MMG or HMG squad. I tend to use SP flak to soften up the hordes of infantry but it's a risky job - you have to keep out of range and the effect is small... but as I said, this is true for all autocannons so changin that is kinda impossible.

Re: Unkillable aircraft!!!
 

And this is a MAJOR difference between WinSPWW2 and SP:WAW. Flak guns in SP:WAW are devestating against infantry targets. And well they should be. Turning those flak cannon onto targets that have only skin and uniforms and thin helmets should turn them into hamburger quite effectively. That's WHY the MkII tanks with 20MM cannon EXISTED. Even troops in foxholes shouldn't have much protection, since the flak is air burst and the shrapnel would fly in ALL directions, including down.
Quite honestly, I don't think it's worth it to expend points on flak weapons in WinSPWW2. As you pointed out, they are relatively useless against enemy planes. And they are about equal to machineguns against infantry.
Better to just buy more tanks that are more resistant to bombing and artillery damage and are armed with machineguns.

Dep

Re: Unkillable aircraft!!!
 

Aerial reconnaissance and dedicated FAC and artillery spotting is different. The US at least used light aircraft to direct artillery strikes, naval bombardment, and the like in direct or more or less direct (normal chains of command apply) contact with the firing units. The USMC still considers artillery spotting and the like to be one of the roles for helicopters which replaced these light aircraft. These aircraft were also used in the convoy escort role and others where the plan was to spot ambushes and possible enemy formations in real time.

I'd be surprised to find any of the light aircraft in game to be purely photographic reconnaissance, which you are correct, until recently required that film be returned to base for processing and analysis.

Edit: I just went and looked myself and from what I see the only issue is that the aircraft types themselves might be wrong. There's a heavy use of fighters in the USA and USMC OOBs to simulate this, probably because it was easier to copy some basic types rather than add a myriad of little known other types. However, it is still important to note that there were separate designations for Observation (O-X) and photographic reconnaissance (F-X) for a reason, as well as, Liaison aircraft being used in this role (L-X).

Aerial spotting - better than nothing.
 

Back in ancient times before the coming of the PC, we used to play war games with little cardboard squares on paper maps. In games like Panzer Blitz intelligence and communication was absolute. As a player, you saw all of the enemies deployment and had near absolute control over your pieces. And yet, we had a good time playing and learned quite a bit about both history and tactics.

The SP series takes that to another level. The few double blind refereed Squad leader games I played in those days were an unequalled experience until I picked up SPWW2. Is aerial recce and command control a bit too powerful in SP*? yes - but it is far better than the old board game days.
Until (and a big "if") linked scenarios can be taken to the level where your recce/ground attack plane spots a enemy troop concentration in Scenario 1 but you don't get the report until Scenario 2, it's either go with the existing model or nothing at all.

For PBEM, agree on use of air and recce with your opponent first. For the AI, don't give it any airstrikes (though I don't know how well the AI uses air inteligence anyway).

And for the accuracy nuts, I know I have read a couple of accounts where observers wrote out a quick sitrep, tied it to a wrench and dropped it to the troops below - no developer fixer or stop bath required.

Re: Unkillable aircraft!!!
 

They existed because 20mm offered better AP performance than 7.92mm machinegun and because it had at least some HE shell, but I won't say it was some kind of meat chopper like multiple - barrelled mounts. For one, even though the gun allowed for automatic fire, clip loading limited it significantly (there's somewhere a long thread about the matter whether the burst fire was SOP for Pz II at all). Useful, but definitely not some ultimate infantry killer.

Depends on flak, to my knowledge all small caliber AA of WWII was contact-primed, ie no airburst, and small-caliber airburst comes as late as now. Except for some constructions (German 20mm had it, dunno how many others), where the shell exploded upon impact OR upon tracer burnout. But then it provides you extremely unuseful airburst as it happens in a fixed distance and moreover over a range where your fire is woefully inaccurate. So trenches or almost any cover would be most helpful - the stories with flak mowing down helpless soldiers come mostly from either short-range ambushes or from flat terrain with little cover.
Another edge of flak comes from heavier shells, and thus better performance against cover and various soft or lightly armored targets - as it should have in-game due to bigger warhead rating.

Then, in real life, flak was most significant threat in high concentrations, like around crucial targets or roads, and that was usually behind the scope of frontline SP covers. That's also why there's no heavy flak in SPWW2/SPMBT. In frontline area, flak served more like an attempt to shoo away enemy than to shoot him down (after all, the same as with convoy escorts - their primary task was not to sink submarines but to keep them away from cargo ships).

Re: Unkillable aircraft!!!
 

Hi Marek
There is also a very short thread called "New info re KWK30/38" that supplies a reference stating that the 20mm as mounted in the pz 2 only fires semi automatic.
One point I would like to make about flak is that if the plane is actually shooting at the flak gun, then the flak gun no longer has to estimate lead. I think this makes it much easier for the flak gun to hit the plane, especially if you have a rangefinder and so know the correct elevation for your gun. This in combination with the much longer effective range of Flak compared to an aircraft. For 20mm flak 38 vs spitfire, the flak can start firing at the spitfire from about 2 klms away while the spitfire has to close to about 300m before he can start firing. considering this, I think that in the game it is a bit too easy for planes to take out flak
Best Regards Chuck

Re: Unkillable aircraft!!!
 

I havent stuck a oar in for a while. Aircraft are definitely not unkillable but you need to put flak in your core and gain experience with it then you'll catch some of them. I've rarely seen a tank KO'd by aircraft, but disabling is frequent, which is fair enough. And anyway the AI often wastes a lot of it's time disabling halftracks and coming back later to finsh them off when they're already useless to you. My only "problem" with aircraft is their ability to spot armour in woods/built up areas. An amazing talent in a speeding fighter. That isn't restricted to the AI; pilots of airstrikes Ive launched have sometimes displayed awesome eyesight.

Re: Unkillable aircraft!!!
 

HI Majordisaster
Thanks for the advice but I dont play campaign only PBEM. so Ill have to make do with AA as is. Yes I greatly dislike Fighter bomber recon as there is no real world mechanism for any information the pilot may have to get to the ground formations anyway.
Best Regards Chuck.