OOBs way out of whack?
 

Been playing a computer-generated campaign in WinSPWW2. I have ALL settings in Preferences maximized for Germans and minimized for USA. Even with these settings, US Infantry are deadly against German Infantry at 10 hexes away. US Infantry are killing TIGER TANKS with Bazookas from 4 hexes away. Tiger tanks are massed with 5 tanks firing at one US squad, and the US squad might as well be in an underground bunker. NO damage at all. Tiger tanks might as well be firing blanks.
When played this way in SPWW2 Gen Ed the US gets clobbered. Are the games so different that the Preferences in WinSPWW2 have zero effect on the actual game play? Are the OOBs slanted so much at an Allied advantage in WinSPWW2 that altering the Preferences makes no difference whatsoever? It sure seems that way. If altering the preferences has such little effect, why have Preferences at all? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...s/confused.gif
I can't believe that the MG42 has such little effect on Allied Infantry, yet the Browning .30 cal air cooled hoses down troops like a scythe.
Do I have to physically go into the US OOB and hack them down to some lower level closer to reality, or has someone already done this, and where can I get the fix?

Dep

Re: OOBs way out of whack?
 

Rule no. 1: The enemy always appears to be superhuman
Rule no. 2: Owntroops always appear to be brainless zombies http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

I have usually right opposite problem - half of my paratrooper company trying to get around one superhuman ultra deep entrenched überfanatic SS squad http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gifAnd I don't want to talk about morvide accuracy of enemy HMG's at extreme range in my last PBEM http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

Re: OOBs way out of whack?
 

Marek: Yes...I could belive and agree 100% with what you say.....IF....I hadn't cut the nuts off the US forces by lowering EVERYTHING I could on them and theoretically made the Germans into supermen http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif. Even with those changes in the preferences, the US Infantry appear to be supersoldiers. I don't think this situation is random chance. I think maybe there is something in the game engine that actually prevents giving an extreme advdantage to EITHER side. I think I will fool around with the preferences and pump the US side to max and lower the German side. And also put them both at the lowest setting. Just to see what happens http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

Dep

Re: OOBs way out of whack?
 

Just made a quick test: USA - rifle platoon 43, two Bazooka platoons. In the open.
Germany: Tiger platoon - one tiger for each Bazooka plt, two for one rifle plt; four FJg platoons.
Preferences: all maxed out for Germans; all lowest possible for US.
US troops didn't opfire moving infantry. Moving Tiger just at ponintblank. Tigers at exp. 120 got insanely many shots and usually their approach to Bazooka teams was one shot - one kill. Moving FjG squad from ca. 8 hexes scored two kills on first salvo. Had three squads promenading around a rifle sqad, no reaction, then one squad fires and obliterates US squad in one salvo, completely. From all the bazookas firing at the two close Tigers, there was one uneffective hit. Preference changes do work...
Now of course this was in the open - if enemy infantry is stuck in cover (rough, trees, buildings...) it can take insane beating and still fight on, esp. with good commander rally rating. Just try British campaign in Africa, stay behind Italian heroes can turn slaughtering general rout with tanks into pretty dangerous undertaking, and often they do recruit from pretty beaten up squads.

Re: OOBs way out of whack?
 

I am in Italy in this campaign. I just can't see where ANY bazooka should be able to easily kill a Tiger at ANY range or in any terrian. It didn't happen in the real war and the chances of it happening in the sim should be zero if I have US Prefs set at lowest number and all Germans set at max numbers. The WW2 bazooka was almost useless against a Tiger unless you hit it from the rear or hit a track. And all US kills so far have been frontal hits. The Tiger shooting both cannon and machinegun against the bazooka takes numerous hits just to get ONE injury. I pounded an Infantry platoon with 5 Tigers from 3 hexes away and the worst that happened was they got "pinned". That's with machineguns AND cannon. US and German Infantry are in the same terrain. US Infantry fire is deadly against German Infantry from 10 hexes away. German Infantry, including the MG42, is worthless. Doesn't even cause US troops to hit the ground.

When I do this in WinSPBMT everything works as it should. Soviet T-80 tanks can't hit the targets, and when they do hit them, it bounces off. Even aluminum APCs survive the hits. Same with Soviet anti-tank missiles. Most times they miss completely. I still think I am gonna have to hack the OOB and reduce the abilities of the US.

Re: OOBs way out of whack?
 

The M9A1 bazooka penetration was 5 inches - the OOB figure is 12cm. The tiger tank front armour in the OOB is 12, so the basic bazooka round can penetrate, since pen is greater than or equal to armour.(Warhead size, or critical hits, can occasionally increase pen, but as it is a HEAT round, it can have reduced pen or even a fuse failure).

It is impossible to say why you are having problems with your infantry, without any information as to what you are doing, or what status the enemy is in - for example if the USA in your example is dug in and defending, then hitting size 0 bazooka teams will be difficult. And, if you are trying the common beginners mistake of attempting moving your infantry over 1 hex while under fire, then they will suffer, or moving any troops (tanks don't have stabilisers in WW2) over a hex or so, and then expecting good shooting results. See the "Game Play Notes" section of the Game Guide for tactical hints.

Cheers
Andy

Re: OOBs way out of whack?
 

Hi Deputy
Yes the Bazooka seems to be overrated in its effectiveness in the game,
from
http://boards.historychannel.com/thr...geID=100030677
"Gavin experimented with all three, using a knocked out Sherman tank I believe. He found the bazooka produces a 1/2 inch hole in the frontal armor, the Panzerschreck (the German Bazooka) made a 1 1/2 inch hole and the Panzerfaust a 3 1/2 inch hole, which would have killed all of the occupants in all likelihood. The bazooka could be effective if a German tank could be hit from the side, with some luck."
and
"Ian Hogg gave these figures for the penetration of various shaped-charge weapons:
PIAT= 75mm
2.36" Bazooka = 80mm
Panzerfaust 30/60 =200mm (at 30 degrees)
88mm Panzerschreck = 100mm"
from I believe
Ian V. Hogg 'The Encyclopedia of Infantry Weapons of World War II'
The Ian Hogg penetration value does agree with this 'testimonial' from
http://www.army.mil/cmh/books/wwii/7-8/7-8_6.htm#p127
"The 1st Battalion refused to panic and set to work with bazookas against the flanks of the blinded tanks. One of the panzers was crippled, but the crew compartment proved impervious to bazooka rounds (perhaps this was a Tiger)"
Apparently bazooka couldnt penetrate tiger side armour, this makes sense as Tiger side armour is 80cm coinciding with Ian Hoggs penetration value for bazooka.
also
from
http://www.globalsecurity.org/milita...m9-bazooka.htm
"One officer fired 22 -bazooka- rounds at about 15 yards range against the rear of the -t34- tanks where their armor is weakest, but to no effect"
So possibly under lab conditions the bazooka could "penetrate" 5 inches of armour but maybe the hole was just big enough to get a needle through and so did little or no "plasm jet" got through or maybe the heat of the plasma jet after 5 inches of armour was much lower and hence less damaging.
anyway, from
http://www.100thww2.org/support/776tankhits.html
Note from test "e" that after penetrating only 50mm af armour the hole has already decreased to the size of a pencil.
Certainly a lot of sites say the bazooka wasnt very effective against german armour but was more commonly used against bunkers.
various sites give the bazooka various penetration values
http://www.geocities.com/Augusta/8172/panzerfaust13.htm
for instance quotes a penetration of 100mm ie 10.
This site quotes hoggs penetration of 100mm for panzershreck
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Panzerschreck
In-game Panzerschreck has penetration of 20 twice Ian Hoggs figure, again the difference may in some way be explained by little effect after penetration is achieved through the thicker armours. Perhaps like antitank rifles HEAT warheads should be given more "star" results rather than outright kills, and possibly have their penetrations reduced somewhat to confirm to the "real-life" testimonials and Ian Hoggs figures?
Best Regards Chuck.

Re: OOBs way out of whack?
 

Every once in awhile we get a "complaint" that makes me wonder if we are all playing the same game but with all your buggering about with the preferences God only knows what's happening with your game. First we had the "Unkillable aircraft!!!" thread and now this. Marek ran a test with the preferences settings set the way you say you seem to have them and got NONE of the results you claim. I just ran a test scenario with the preferences set normally with US bazooka teams in a trench with the trench in trees and Tiger tanks four hexes away and I saw ONE tiger destroyed as the result of a "Shot hits target weak point for 2 extra penetration" and I've run that test 4 times from both the US and German perspectives. I've seen lot's of Bazooka teams destroyed though . I've also see way more bazooka misses than hits and WAY more hits without killing penetration than hits that kill. I had one Tiger hit in one test game at LEAST ten times and all it ended up with was 3 points of damage.

In the DOS version it was possible for the preferences file to pick up bad data and cause all kinds of weirdness. We changed the way that was saved in the windows version and have not had any problems with it but there are always exceptions and since your results are WAY off the scale here is what I suggest you do.....

Go to WinSPWW2\Game Data and DELETE the file Game Preferences.ini. A new one will be generated when you start up the game. You will need to reset Breakdowns to ON and possibly the Hex grid, ID tags and fast arty and "AI tank Heavy"( depending on what you prefer ) Then adjust the battle points and map size and then LEAVE THE PLAYER PREFERENCES ALONE and play the game that way for a few weeks but for fun, before you do, please take a screen shot of your preferences so we can all see what you have set there now. It *MAY* be possible that you have found some flaw in the preferences code when they are screwed way off normal but I won't know that until I see what you have set up there now.......better still, zip up your existing Preferences.ini. and post it to this thread. That way we all can see EXACTLY what you have in there now.

Don

Re: OOBs way out of whack?
 

Hi Andy,
That's interesting info. But just shoveling data into the mix isn't very useful. The bazooka, like a single M4 tank with the 75MM gun, was all but worthless against Tiger tanks. IDEALLY, with a perfect 90 degree hit, the 5 inch penetration would be possible. But ideal hits while in combat are notoriously elusive http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif Bazookas were notorious for bouncing off Tiger tanks. Even the MKIV had to be hit in just the right spot to kill it. Again, a REAR impact in the engine area would be the ideal hit.

As to the M9A1, my scenario was taking place in Italy in 1943. The M9 is the weapon being used. The M9A1 didn't come out till September 1944.

But ALL of that shouldn't matter one bit. What SHOULD make a MAJOR difference is my Preferences settings. I have ALL of the US settings set at lowest levels and all the German settings set at highest. So no bazooka should be able to hit and kill a Tiger tank unless it has repeated impacts to the rear of the tank. US Infantry dug in? Sjouldn't matter hardly at all. Two direct hits with an 88 on the Infantry hex and they should either be eliminated or in flight and disperced. That's where I see the problem. We could split hairs forever about whether a bazooka can kill a Tiger. But with the settings I have in place, it shouldn't even be able to HIT one, much less destroy it.

Dep

Re: OOBs way out of whack?
 

Oops...sorry all. I didn't see the posts under Andy's at first. I will zip up my preferences ini and post it ASAP.

Dep

Re: OOBs way out of whack?
 

looking at the code, the line that does the accuracy adjustment is in the middle of the various spaghetti code. (It is not something I had looked at, ever, so is likely to be in its original place!). Various adjustments for movement and target size etc came after the percentage divider.

In my test scenario, US bazookas were opening up at about 14% shot 1 hit chance. Cranking their preference setting to 30% to-hit only lowered that to 10-11%.

So I commented out that line, copied it to the end of the accuracy-determination spaghetti, and the to-hits went to 6-7% first-shot. Not 30%, but these numbers get modified elsewhere in the spaghetti, by things like leader ratings and all that jazz, so determining precise values, even with the code to hand, is nigh impossible. (And we still get folks who want the "tables" http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif).

Note to self - if I ever write a wargame engine from the ground-up, make it table based, just like normal tabletop rules!.

Solution to make the code behave as end users would expect, is to move that line to where I did, it seems.

Good catch! - something we all had assumed was working in the original SSI code, was not.

Cheers
Andy

Re: OOBs way out of whack?
 

Andy: Based on Chuck's findings (thanks for checking that out Chuck!!!), I can make some modifications to the weapon power of the various anti-tank weapons. And I thank you for looking into the code and confirming that I'm not totally insane http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...ies/stupid.gif
But....a couple more questions come to mind...

1.Is it possible for users to adjust the code as you did? Or is this something that would have to come in a patch?

2. Is it also possible that other items like rifles, machineguns, etc., might also be affected in the same way?

Thanks a ton for your efforts. I really do like the sim, and any comments I make are to improve things, not criticize.

Dep

Re: OOBs way out of whack?
 

You are probbly talking this when the prefences for american infantry is set to min. Because in a 50x50meter area that a hex represents, two 88mm HE shells will not rout a normal infantry squad in real life, shrapnel may not even hit anyone or explosion cause slight concussions. Otherwise infantry would be so useless in combat that everybody should only be using tanks and aircraft etc.

Hence everybody around the world is screaming all the time for bigger guns and airburst rounds and more HE effect on the target. A normal infantry squad is hard to remove / rout from any terrain with just two 88mm shots.

Re: OOBs way out of whack?
 

Oh please........http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...s/rolleyes.gif

Chucky only quotes the sources that support his ideas. Don't forget how quick he was to support your "death rays attached to the bombs" theory which you later retracted.

You barely understand the way the game works and yet are willing to jump in and modify weapon data based on who knows what preferences settings. It's "death rays attached to the bombs and destroy everything in sight" all over again. I can only imagine what's next.

What Andy told you was the change he made to the code lowers a first shot to hit when the preferences are set to 30% from the existing "10-11%" to "6-7% "....... OK ? When the preferences are set normally that would only be about a 14% chance So IF he puts that change in anyone who cranks the preferences down to 30% ( only you that I know about.....) will only see a 4-5 % change in the first shot to hit from what they see now when it's set to 30%. At best you'd go from 1 chance in 10 of hitting to 1 chance in 15 or thereabouts. It doesn't even begin to explain what you described in your first post and the dramatic difference between what you claim is happening in your game and what I saw and what Marek documented in his post.

I am STILL waiting for that preferences.INI that you told me was going to be posted "ASAP"

Don

Re: OOBs way out of whack?
 

I know what every other consumer who buy this game knows. I know how the old Steel Panthers works and how WinSPMBT works. I know how SPWAW works at a consumer level. I should NOT need to have to learn programming code in order to learn what is not working correctly in the game. Unless the code in this game differs substantially from the other two games, something is definitely WRONG here. If you want to continue to swim in DeNial, feel free. All those percentages and hit chance estimates shouldn't mean squat if all the preferences are cranked up to give one side total advantage. And if there is a problem with giving one side total advantage and it doesn't work, then the problem is going to exist throughout the preferences settings. I have checked some weapons settings for the MG42 and 98K Mauser and they are just plain WRONG. It seems like whoever set the weapons numbers wanted to make sure the Allies won no matter what the Preference settings. And just to make your day (since I was at the Doctor most of mine), here's your precious Preferences.ini info:

[PREFERENCES]
PREF_HIDDEN_FIRE=1
PREF_MUSIC=1
PREF_OBJ_FLAGS=1
PREF_SOUND=1
PREF_ID_TAG=1
PREF_HEX_SIDE=1
PREF_AUTO_RALLY=1
PREF_ANIMATION=1
PREF_MOVE_RADIUS=1
PREF_USER_PREF=1
PREF_BREAK=0
PREF_AMMO=0
PREF_COMMAND=1
PREF_MORALE=1
PREF_SPOTTER=1
PREF_MOVE_SHOOT=1
PREF_MINES=1
PREF_COUNTRY_EXP=1
PREF_SOUND_VOL=2
PREF_ANIM_LEVEL=4
PREF_DELAY=1
PREF_SPOT0=250
PREF_SPOT1=30
PREF_HIT0=250
PREF_HIT1=30
PREF_ROUT0=250
PREF_ROUT1=30
PREF_TROOP_QUAL0=70
PREF_TROOP_QUAL1=70
PREF_TANK_TOUGH0=250
PREF_TANK_TOUGH1=30
PREF_INF_TOUGH0=250
PREF_INF_TOUGH1=30
PREF_ARTY_EFFECT=100
PREF_MAP_WIDTH=50
PREF_FAST_ART=1
PREF_POINT0=0
PREF_POINT1=0
PREF_AIR0=-1
PREF_AIR1=-1
PREF_AITKHVY=1
PREF_MAP_HEIGHT=50

Re: OOBs way out of whack?
 

I've been investigating some of the number setting for the weapons in WinSPWW2 and came out with some really odd stuff.

For instance...the HE Kill numbers for the German MP38/40 9MM submachinegune is 5. The HE Kill numbers for the 98K rifle are 1. According to the help manual... "HE Kill - the value of the round at killing soft targets. Bigger is better!."
Oops!!!! Here's an instance where bigger ISN'T better. By this type of thinking, pistol ammo is more deadly than rifle ammo. Sorry....that just ain't so. This isn't measuring multiple hits by the submachinegun, it's only measuring the size (diameter) of the projectile vs it's damage to humans. More and more I think the OOBs are going to need some major reworking to get them correct.

Dep

Re: OOBs way out of whack?
 

Don and Andy - and a lot of others - get a little testy when people start saying the game is "broken" especially with no supporting save files etc. Lots of "bug" reports have come through, including from me, that have proven to have other non-code related causes (yes mine was from a trashed ini file and a some other Windows related corruption).

If only one player is complaining then odds are that something is wrong with that player's set up - not the code. In this case you found a genuine bug that looks like it will be fixed in the next patch.

If your game experience is still way out of whack, try a complete delete and reinstall. It's a pain yes, but it should fix any badness on your end.

And with that gentlemen - I call it time for all to retreat to their board edges for a cuppa or a pint as you wish. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

Re: OOBs way out of whack?
 

Of course end users cannot change these as code is not available to them.

Cheers
Andy

Re: OOBs way out of whack?
 

And if you look at the British OOB you'll find the same thing when you compare the Lee Enfield .303 and the Thompson gun. I think that you might find the rate of fire comes into the calculation at this point. Both rifles being bolt action and the MP38/40 not being so.

Just a thought.

I agree however that this can be a frustrating game and requires a more thoughtful and paitent attitude that even other variants of the game.

Evan http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/cool.gif

Re: OOBs way out of whack?
 

Hi DRG
Well I looked for descriptions of Bazookas in action and those presented are the only two I found that were detailed enough to be relevant. If I had found one stating that yes a bazooka team knocked out a tiger through its frontal armour I wouldn't have posted anything.
Ian Hogg seems a very reputable source to me I would imagine that his figures represent the -effective- penetration of the listed weapons while your games figures represent maximum penetrations (ie ineffective needle holes).
Something I didnt mention ealier was that sloped armour seemed to defeat the bazooka missle completely.
Best Regards Chuck.

Re: OOBs way out of whack?
 

Except that slot one infantry weapons are not designed in the singular or based on one single shot. You'll notice that the MP38/40 has dramatically less range than the 98K. SMG ratings are based on the fact that it has a substantially higher ROF than a bolt-action infantry rifle. The 98K has the exact same stats as the Springfield 1903 (Weapon #236 in OOB12), while the M1 Garand (Weapon #112) has HEK 2 because of its higher ROF.

This is not about pistol and rifle bullets alone. Your interpretation of HEK value is not entirely correct either. It is, perhaps, the most important value for determining kills, and it is the value that determines how well a weapon kills soft targets, but it is not generally based on warhead size, especially with regards to infantry weapons (you can see this throughout the OOBs if you look).

Re: OOBs way out of whack?
 

Hi Evan: The HE Kill number is a pretty strange thing that must encompass a good deal of "opinions" and hidden estimates in it. The help file ONLY states "bigger is better". It doesn't say anything about rate or voulme of fire. From the way it's set right now, the MP40 becomes MORE deadly (meaning more KILLING POWER) than the 98K rifle cartridge. Even worse, the weapon ranges for submachineguns are just plain crazy. The submachinegun is an excellent CLOSE RANGE weapon for use in close assaults or in house-to-house fighting. But it's maximum effective range is only about 50 meters (1/2 a football field) in real life. Beyond that, you'd end up firing it like a mortar and it's accuracy as well as killing power would drop to zero.
Since each hex is 250 meters across (273 yards), longer than 2 1/2 football fields, any submachinegun killing anything beyond the hex IT'S LOCATED IN, is simply ridiculous. In other words, to actually get any kills with a submachinegun, you should need to be IN THE SAME HEX, at the very least. Even then, it would be iffy as far as number of kills. If both opponents were at the opposite sides of the hex, I doubt the submachingun would do anything more than just make noise. But we do have to allow SOME stretch of realism for gameplay's sake. It's just the current settings are stretched too far. The Thompson and MP38/40 is shown as having a 3 hex range. No way!!

Dep

Re: OOBs way out of whack?
 

Last time I checked hexes in WinSP were not representing 250 meters.

Re: OOBs way out of whack?
 

It just gets better and better. This further confirms what I said earlier, you barely understand the way the game works but know all about whats "wrong" with it and here's a glaring example. Each hex in the game is 50 metres/yards across, not "250 meters across".

Maybe printing out the game guide and READING it might be helpful to you ?

Don

Re: OOBs way out of whack?
 

The Game Guide is the game manual, and can be acessed through the "help" tab of the Game Options programme, by clicking on the "Read The Game Manual" link.

The GG will launch in your browser (it is an HTML document).

The "introduction" section can be scrolled down to (it is the first section of text in the GG), or jumped to, via the links section on the LHS of the screen - it is the very first link. It contains information on the game scale.

Additionally, you can set the game to report ranges in most cases in either hexes, yards, or metres to taste, by toggling the "Show Most Ranges in" button on the game options form's "Misc" tab.

Only SP version 3 at the brigade level of combat, used a 200 metre hex.

Re: OOBs way out of whack?
 

And you're reading too much between the lines. Given quote means exactly that Bigger (HE kill, since that's what the paragraph is about) is better. Hard to argue with that as the bigger HE kill the bigger chance your enemy snuffeth it, ie the better. Note it doesn't touch caliber, RoF, range... Just HE kill value which is derived primarily from weapon class - MOST SMG's have HEK 5 due to their high rate of fire, contrary to bolt-action rifles (HEK 1) or self-loading rifles (HEK 2).

One would think that if in SMG range, a burst of 9mm may be well more deadly than one 7.92mm bullet. If for nothing else then for more lead flying in the air. Or did you think SMG's in the game are single-shot?

Really?

Agreed.

Or more, depending on weapon.

Killing power is still there. Stray pistol bullets may cause serious harm well beyond handgun effective range. And actually atleast to me it too often happens that at ranges over 1 hex firing SMG's can be likened to watering garden with your eyes blindfolded - you are guaranteed to hit the map.

DISCLAIMER: 1 Hex in original Steel Panthers was intended to be 25 meters, in late stages of development upped to 50 meters. In no Steel Panthers series games the hex is 250 meters, only in SP3:Brigade command it's 200 meters (ie four SP1/2/WAW/MBT/WW2 hexes). A little of boring calcullations would show you that game with rifle ranges of 2500 meters, bazooka ranges of 1500 meters and such would be strange, however if you divide the values by 5 shrinking hex to 50 meters it'd begin to make sense.

IE 150 meters. On the far side a bit hard to it anything with aimed fire, yet SMG squad firing may create a decent beaten zone to push enemy head's down at the very least.

Re: OOBs way out of whack?
 

You're right...they're 50 meters http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...es/redface.gif. But the fact remains that subguns shouldn't be able to fire accurately or effectively out of the hex they're locates in. How do I know? I own and shoot two Thompsons http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

Re: OOBs way out of whack?
 

I saw that after it was pointed out by someone else. Doesn't change a thing. Subguns should NOT be able to fire further than 50 meters. Do you OWN a subgun? Ever fired one? I own TWO and have fired them both at a shooting range and in a REAL war. And I'm not talking about "virtual" subguns in computer games. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...s/rolleyes.gif

Re: OOBs way out of whack?
 

I admit I was off on the hex sizes, but I maintain that the subgun ranges are still too generous.
High rate of fire in a subgun does NOT equate to more kill potential. Other factors like controllability come into effect. "Spray and pray" may work in the movies and for gangbangers, but for military use it is frowned upon as wasting ammunition. It is NOT taught even in machingune training. It has been repeatedly proven that aimed, rapid semi-auto fire is much more effective at actually killing people than full auto fire out of any handheld weapon.
The subguns is deadly in CERTAIN instances. The Soviets made excellent use of them in house-to-house fighting and close assault combat. But a sungun is NOT a "handy rifle". At ranges beyond 50 meters/yards, it's pretty useless. The 9mm as well as the .45ACp drops rather rapidly the further out it goes. They are PISTOL CARTRIDGES, not rifle cartridges. Again...lots of lead flying in the air is great for suppressive fire, but you need that lead to be ACCURATE to be effecive. The maximum range for the subguns in WinSPWW2 shouldn't be more than the hex they are located in. Beyond that, they are just noisemakers. The weapon that was actually USED for suppressive fire in WW2 was the Browning machinegun or the MG42.
BTW...more Infantry were killed by artillery than ANY other weapon in WW2.

Dep

Re: OOBs way out of whack?
 

In what war did you fire your two subguns? Considering they are the same Thompsons. I concur with you that a 2.36in bazooka should not be able nominally penetrate Tigers front armor. However many of us have military experience also and have fired enough different military weapons to be able to see that this game has point in it´s HE kill, accuracy, pen and range ratings. Submachine guns are able in real life to somewhat effectively fire for 150meters. However of course their power is truly appreciated below 100meter distances. I myself have fired the 9x19 Suomi SMG and it was much easier to control with short bursts than a 7,62x39 assault rifle when firing even shorter bursts.

Stop BOASTING with YOUR EXPERIENCE and start arguing then you´ll get your commments taken more seriously.

Re: OOBs way out of whack?
 

They are pistol cartridges that are fired with much longer barrels from SMGs than pistols, giving more velocity and basic accuracy. Sometimes SMG cartridges were made specially for submachineguns, with more powerful powder, because that gave even more mv compared to regular pistols. Also SMG sight arrangement, even only because of the longer distance of the aft and front sights make them inherently more accurate that any pistol. When you are thinking of a weapon where it should not have range past the same hex it is located in the game considers this range 0hex=0meters. So 1hex range is actually max range of 50meters, like hand grenades, infantry flamethrowers, pistols etc.

Re: OOBs way out of whack?
 

As they do in-game.

Worked quite well for Czechoslovakian SMG troops accompanying tanks in WW2. Not by causing a lot of damage but by forcing any Panzerfaust wielder in the trenches to keep their heads down at ranges where artillery was unable to supress enemy anymore due to danger zone issues. Of course they were helped by better ballistics of 7.62x24mm cartridge. And they were also helped by realisation that the three tanks they have for support is the entire force their assigned battalion was able to get together and if they let harm come to them, they would have no tanks coming to support them on the next day.

If you are to employ aimed semiauto fire, you have to wait until the enemy sticks his head out of his trench (or from behind his pile of rubble), risking that he'll have time to send his ugly Panzerfaust into the tank you're supposed to protect. But sound of bursts of bullets splatting over his head might convince him it's not even worth looking out. As it is said, "It's not the bulled with your name on it you should be wary of, it's that with To whomever it may concern".

SMG regiments weren't used just for close assaults and house-to-house - and it was quite often used tactic to use that 71-rounds disk magasine for suppressive barrages when closing on enemy, firing it empty and then in close-in fighting use handier 35-rounds mags.

Finns evidently thought otherwise - doctrine for Suomi KP/31 was counting with harrassing fires up to 500 meters (10 hexes), aimed fire at man-sized targets up to 300 meters (6 hexes) and burst fire generally under 100 meters (2 hexes). Of course KP/31 was a high-quality SMG, but the ammo was still 9mm Luger. In reality, close terrain on Karelian isthmus led to employment in the last role being most frequent but the longer-ranged action still took place in favorable conditions.
Bear in mind, it would be hard to simulate such distinction in-game, as there's no means how to "switch" the weapon from semi auto to full auto and from one range to another, so compromises have to be made, so Suomi gets the same kill and range (and accuracy) rating as most other SMG's.

Granted the "5000 bullets to kill one man" statistics are correct (most likely it was lower as they are taking into account SUPPLIED rounds, not those actually fired), seems accuracy wasn't guarded so closely http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif Not to mention similar statistics from Vietnam or WWII Pacific warfare.

IE 25 meters and less, since the troops aren't lined up on the far side of the hex? I was able to hit reliably man-sized target at that range with my fery first 9mm pistol magasine to fire at that range. True, the target wasn't shooting back.

As they are in game as well. The closer the weapon is to its max range, the more often does it "hit" as far as neighboring hexes go, ie complete total utter miss. Since in-game SMG's have generally range of 3, it happens quite often and saw it happen repeatedly even at 1 hex range. IF they do hit, they are devastating (and again, Primary inf. weapon class in SP means squad's worth of SMG's is firing to prosuce those 1-2 casaulties) but that's pretty big IF and it's hard to get to have such a chance unless the enemy infantry is suppressed well enough by other means. Like by other two SMG squads covering their advance by short bursts from a bit farther away.

As would be in-game, if for nothing else they have significantly longer range.

AFAIK those studies were based on hospital records, so are inherently biased by fact they don't take into account those poor buggers who didn't make it there. And anyway, many of these artillery casaulties would happen outside SP game scope - further in the rear, in preparationary fires before the battle, in random artillery duels before or after the battle, long-range interdiction fires far behind your back and so on. The game doesn't want to simulate all this, it is content to try to emulate combat that's actually happening on your few square kilometers.

Re: OOBs way out of whack?
 

M1928A1 Thompson in Viet Nam. M1A1 at a gun range. And they are NOT identical. The 1928A1 has a much higher cyclic rate. I have no idea what "somewhat effectively" means. A subgun has crude sights at best. The Lyman sights that used to come on the 1928A1 were a bit of a joke. Expensive, delicate sights that were rarely if ever used in combat.
Achieveing multiple hits ona target with a sungun at 150 meters would be nothing short of spectacular. And multiple hits on a target are what a subgun NEEDS to be effective.
9MM and .45ACP FMJ rounds are not known for being outstanding manstoppers. The .45ACP is better, but only because of the larger hole it makes. I wasn't boasting my experience...it's a fact. And I put more stock in personal experience than numerical theories based on varying information from books. I do agree with Chuck that the Ian Hogg books are the most informative and useful. I wish folks who created this game consulted with some live survivors or at the least read some WW2 history books about weapon's abilities and intended uses before they plugged in the numbers that are in there right now. I hope SOMEBODY has reworked the OOB weapons files and the file is available for others to use. If not, I'll just keep changing the numbers until they eventually are more accurate and representative on real world numbers.

Dep

Re: OOBs way out of whack?
 

Sounds nice in theory, but simply not true. The barrel of the 1911A1 .45ACP pistol Uncle Sammie used was 5 inches long. It gave a velocity of 800fps. The barrel on the Thompson Submachinegun was 10 inches long. It's velocity was around 920fps. Not enough to make a significant difference in bullet performance. Not even enough to make the bullet go supersonic. And that velocity dropped off VERY RAPIDLY the further away from the muzzle that heavy (230 grain) non-aerodynamic cartridge went. I know of special steel-cased .45ACP ammo used by Uncle Sam. But that was used in ALL .45ACP cartridges because brass was in short supply. It didn't travel any faster than normal brass ammo. There a limit to how much "oomph" you can boost a cartridge case to before you start destroying parts or getting ruptured case heads. Accuracy and subguns simply aren't compatible in WW2 designs. The MP40 used a crude non-adjustable V notch and blade front sight. The Lyman sight that came on the early Thompsons was dropped in favor of a crude plate with a peep hole and a blade front sight. It was cheaper to produce and just as effective as the Lyman sight. If you've never fired a full automatic weapon, it's hard to convey the way it jumps around in your hand. The l;ast version of the Thompson was the M1A1. It fired from an open bolt, much the same as the MP40. The weight os that massive bolt slamming forward every time it fired pretty much made sights more cosmetic than functional. It's pretty difficult to find historical pics of a Thompson gunner or a MP40 gunner using the sights to mshoot it. Both guns were usually fored from the hip in a point-shoot style of shooting. Many troops that used these guns got quite good at it. When you see the modern H&K subguns being used they almost ALWAYS use a stock and sights. Times and styles change http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif
THANK YOU for the info about the 1 hex settings!!! That will help me a lot!!! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

Dep

Re: OOBs way out of whack?
 

Well, as I said I know how 9x19, 7,62x39 and 7,62x54 acts, when fired full auto. I have no personal experience of .45ACP. However here is a good thread about WW2 SMGs and their uses in different armies, by guys who know or have fired those guns, maybe not in WW2 but later.

Presenting again our beloved tanknet: http://63.99.108.76/forums/index.php...gun&st=120

And from personal experince I can guarantee that the Suomi SMG 9x19 was very easy to handle with 6-9 round automatic bursts and regularly landed on target with surprising accuracy, that can not be said from same distance with an AK or finnish M62 7,62x39 on similar full auto bursts.

Also consider this: if you drop one SMG range to 2hexes from three, there will be twenty guys complaining from different reasons that why this gun outranges the other, and have about million arguments why it actually should be the other way round. The developers would probably like to see to drop individual weapon designations and use only a generic SMG, rifle or self-loading rifle or carbine. However this will not happen, because there would be again ten oob makers saying that they want to present their Thompson, M16 or whatever for some reason (reality) to the game, so the individual weapon names will stand.

If you drop all SMGs to range 1hex, SMG-armed formations will suffer heavily. They will be gunned down from 2+ hex range by any regular rifle squad and will be mostly useless in this game system. My opinion comes from 5 years of gaming experience with SPWW2 / SPMBT system.

edited for spelling

Re: OOBs way out of whack?
 

Hi pdoktar
For my experience I have fired the f1 which is prety much the sten and when you pull the trigger and the big fat bolt luches forward I can tell you when it hits the bullet the gun wants to jump out of your hands. The muzzle then proceeds to climb rapidly, there is hardly any point aiming. Training is to lean into the weapon yell and fire. In short its a dog, handy in a house no doubt.
Im sure most other SMGs perform much better.
Marek mentions harrassing fire as a justification for a long SMG range but LMGs ect can also indulge in harrassing fire past their effective range but I think this isnt modeled for them and so shouldnt be for SMGs either. Actually I think dropping the range of all SMGs from 3 to 2 hexes would give more "realistic" play.
Im not sure if there are other SMG formations about but as for disadvantaging the tank riders dont forget they do have a tank to provide long range support.
While on the subject of tank riders I think it would be a good idea if the tank riders were in the same alpha group as the tanks like say panzergrenadiers, ie a1-a3 are tanks and a4-a6 are tank riders.
Also soviet formation unit 063 has a LMG which I believe tank riders didnt have. not sure if they came with anti tank mines of molotov cocktails either, these are antitank weapons and they do after all have a (several) tank(s) with them to take care of other tanks. I thought they were famous for being trained in and armed with just one weapon (ppsh). ie they are there to protect the tanks from infantry.
Best Regards Chuck.

Re: OOBs way out of whack?
 

I recommend re-reading my post. Harrassing fire (in the case I mentioned, ie KP M/31) was for ranges up to 500 meters (10 hexes), aimed fire at single opponents up to 300 meters (6 hexes). 100 meters was for controlled burst fire. While you cannot switch from one mode to another in SP engine, I'd say range of 150 meters (at cost of almost non-existant accuracy in-game) is quite justified.

Re: OOBs way out of whack?
 

Quite justified for all SMG's?

Re: OOBs way out of whack?
 

Quite justifiable for all I'd say, even Sten Gun with sawn off barrel and sights would be able to put out suppressive fire up to 150 meters. At nil accuracy, of course, but the same would happen in-game.
And again, judging from the war memoirs I have read, esp. from zones where SMG's were used more than in US Army, it seems just this was quite frequent mode of use when the goal was to keep "their" heads down at ranges where artillery was already a no-no.

Re: OOBs way out of whack?
 

Hi Marek
So if every other weapon in the game uses its effective range why should we make an exception of the SMG and let it have extra 'suppressive' range. Effective range for a SMG firing bursts being 2 hexes or less.
Not that Ive read the same texts as you but Ive never come accross this long range use of SMG suppressive shooting. Seems a great way to get in close with the enemy and have no bullets left once you get there, obviosly some quotes or references would be helpful.
Beat Regards Chuck.

Re: OOBs way out of whack?
 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PPS-43
pps-43
which states the sight settings were 100 and 200 yards

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M3_submachine_gun
M3
Which states the sights were fixed at 100 yards (so harrasing fire at 150 would be fine)

http://www.saf.org/LawReviews/PSharpe1.html Thompson

which is a good technical article on the Thompson
And I have fired the Sterling on the ranges, and was quite happy with it at 75-100 yards, at 150-200 yards it would be fine to keep heads down. I would still rather have the SLR, avoid the GPMG (heavy! + a beast to clean!), but did a spell as platoon radio operator, and having to hump that beach, was quite happy to have the stubby little subby - as it was nice and small (esp with the stock folded up) and light.

So, 150 yards or so is fine for SMGs in the game, especially since we have to realise that the infantry can be assumed to be anywhere in their hex, or to move to the area in question in the game turn if needed, so allowing grenades & satchel charges to be delivered to the next hex, ant-tank assaults and so on. The men in a section are not formed up in a close-order drill formation shoulder to shoulder at the centre point of the hex (even if the icon looks crowded at the figure/ground scale) - but are assumed to be tactically positioned throughout the area.

(And the original game did not allow you to actually enter a hex containing enemy, remember! - melee code is our addition, way back in sp2ww2 days).

Oh - and the code (not original SSI code, so I can mention details of that! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif! ) gives SMG a small accuracy boost at 1-2 hexes over other WT_PRIME_INF weapon classes (Firer is an SMG is determined by weapon type==WT_PRIME_INF and hekill>2 and weapon range<5. if i were actually to write a new game from the ground up, I would have WC_SMG, WC_RIFLE and so on .. would make determining exactly what the truck was shooting much easier in the code than a single WT_PRIME_INF class etc).

SMG sections - I use them in my USSR campaign core, but as a back-up to the normal rifle companies, as tank riders and only as the lead in city fights, woods, etc. If you can keep the fight under 4 hexes, they are fine, but even with the LMG, if caught in the open by rifle enemy at >SMG range(not hard), they do not fare too well. Therefore, I usually upgrade one of the 3 sections in each platoon to a rifle (or LMG) section after 1-2 battles, to give some ranged fire to the platoon.

Cheers
Andy

Re: OOBs way out of whack?
 

Hi Mobhack
Very interesting but can you show me where tank desent teams armed with LMGs come from? Ive yet to find a tank desent TOE that has anything else than ppsh.
Best Regards Chuck.

Re: OOBs way out of whack?
 

I'd say all tank dessant TOEs present are inherently inaccurate as tank dessant units were formed ad hoc, though preferably with SMG infantry. Now SMG squads were atleast supposed to have LMG, and I doubt very much they'd leave it behind. After all they had to count with situations where tank ios killed or otherwise away.

Re: OOBs way out of whack?
 

If that is your world view of tank riders, then limit yourself to the versions with SMG only, then. Your choice.

Of course, the Russians were just like any other army - and experienced troops would "aquire" non-establishment weapons, like the mass use of captured panzerfausts.

Since I have actually served in an army unit, I place very little value on any "official" TO&E chart. However, some "chartered accountant" type wargamers bow down and worship at the altar of the TO&E chart. Hint - the things are a guide to what some bureaucrats thought should apply, and not to the reality of actual units, especially those in combat.

Now, of course, you could always enter "soviet tank rider LMG" into the well-known search engine called "google" and get results like Kursk
where an SMG company is shown to have 9 LMG, which is 3 per platoon, and with 3 sections that is 1 per section. Which is, funnily enough - what we provide as one of the alternatives.

You have the Mobhack editor, so you can make your own OOBS to fit your particular views, should you feel the need. If you do not like the sections with LMG, do not buy them, and if you are obsessed by a Soviet AI using them against you and swinging the entire battle because 10 elements of 200 or so have these wonder-waffen, then by all means, use Mobhack (its not hard) - and give them an X3 code. Mobhack allows you to have it your way.

Andy

Re: OOBs way out of whack?
 

Can't really compare a submachinegun cartridge (aka a PISTOL cartridge) performance with an assault rifle (7.62X39) or full size rifle (7.62X54R). An assault rifle mainly uses full auto fire for close combat where the targets are densely located and not under heavy cover. A full size battle rifle, say an FN/FAL, using a full power 7.62 NATO cartridge is USELESS in full auto. After the first shot the weapon rapidly climbs to where by the third shot you are shooting at birds.
On full auto an AK is range-restricted simply because of the increased recoil (due to increased power AND lethality) of the round. A 7.62X54R is a rifle or medium machinegun cartridge and has FAR more recoil. Yes, a 9MM in a heavy submachinegun is controllable. But you are NOT going to get "rifle-like" accuracy out of it. The barrel is way too short (usually around 10 inches) and the smaller length, even with a folding stock extended, simply doesn't lend itself to good accuracy potential. I would imagine a whole platoon armed with submachineguns and firing them like mortars is going to cause the enemy to immediately take cover. But if they are firing those submachineguns from a range so far away that they aren't coming close to the people they are shooting at, then they are in for some bad mojo in the form of artillery fire.

Will submachingun formations suffer if I drop it to one hex...most definitely. But that's a lot closer to reality than giving them long range killing power via some mortar-like firing of their weapons. I doubt very much any submachinegun users fired their weapons at long rifle ranges (over 100 meters) in real life anyway. Not unless they were suicidal and wanted to give their positions away. It's the same thing as having an M4 Sherman fire at it's maximum range at a Tiger tank and then expect it to survive the encounter when the Tiger can far outrange and outpower it. I am simply forcing the submachinegun units to be used as they were intended to be used in real life. If I am taking away some amazingly unrealistic abilities and advantages, then so be it. Those formations will just have to deal with it http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif
I will use submachinegun units in urban or heavily forested combat where they won't be instantly visible. They will just have to use stealth to accomplish their mission instead of depending on an unrelistic advantage from their weapons.

If you REALLY want to know how the Thompson fires, I suggest you head over to the location where people who still own and shoot them post...

http://www.machinegunbooks.com/forum...hp?showforum=3

Dep

Re: OOBs way out of whack?
 

Chuck: Your experience with the Sten mirrors my experiece with the M1A1 Thompson. For close-in house-to-house fighting where targets are up close or may be densely packed, it's great. But othereise, it's like one man trying to accurately use a fire hose set to full power. The "leaning-into" style you describe is EXACTLY the right way to fire a subgun. As a matter of fact, when I fired the M1A1 at the range, I took that stance and the range instructor immediately commented "you must have fired this gun before". Of course, I had http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif. Only I had fired the 1928A1 version. I will say they are great fun to shoot (as long as you aren't paying for the ammo). I also fired the M3 Grease Gun when I was with the 3rd Armored Cav in Ft. Lewis, Wa.
It was a bit lighter in weight than the Thompson, but still not something I'd call "accurate" by any stretch. I am going to try reducing the range to 2 and then 1 hex to see how this affects gameplay and realism.

Dep

Re: OOBs way out of whack?
 

I am curious as to the circumstances of your use of a M1928A1 in Southeast Asia.

Re: OOBs way out of whack?
 

I did some reading on the M31 after you mentioned it. Very impressive!!! However, I think harassing fire out to 500 meters is being WAY too generous. Other than keeping the enemy awake at night (until he calls in artillery on your heads) and giving away your position, there is NO WAY the 9MM cartridge is going to shoot that far and hit anything. From what I have been able to find out, the maximum EFFECTIVE RANGE of the M31 is less than 200 meters. Personally, I think that is being VERY generous, considering the capabilities of the 9MM FMJ ammunition and the cyclic rate of the blowback-operated gun (750-900RPM).

Dep

Re: OOBs way out of whack?
 

I was there in 1968-1969, 2nd Btn, 60th Regt., 9th Infantry Division. We had various weapons assigned to locations in our forward base camp for use when we were there for bunker and tower guard duty. They included M14 rifles with automatic selector switches and the normal M60 and M2 HB machineguns. At the entrance/front gate to our camp we had two Thompson 1928A1 Subguns. At that time the M16 rifle was still suffering all kinds of problems with jamming, so it was thought the Thompson, which had proved to be quite reliable on full auto, would be better served at that location. I believe we bought them from a local ARVN unit that was still using WW2 era weapons. I was lucky enough to be selected to make sure they were in proper firing order so I got a goodly amount of range time. During the Tet offensive I spent one unpleasant evening up all night blasting away with the Tommygun. It never malfunctioned the whole time.

Dep

Re: OOBs way out of whack?
 

Deputy, you are consistently mistaken the ability to fire a SMG over distance with chance of hitting something. Despite plenty of indication both by actual users of these types of weapons and historical accounts of their use you keep to your own strict view.

Please understand that this game is a model of reality and not reality itself and as such has to incorporate many different aspects. One of these is that rounds fired by smg's can travel quite some distance and still do harm. Hitting the specific target you aimed at is something else entirely. The game gives smg's a range below the distance the rounds can travel and do harm, so it's already limiting them more than 'reality'. And at more than 1 hex range they are inaccurate in the game.
So if you want to be taken seriously here, do the work. Set up test scenario's and show us that smg's consistently do too much damage against targets at ranges of 100m or more. Make sure you include rifles and automatic rifles in your tests to show the relative effectiveness of smg's.

As a playtester for this game I've done plenty of those sorts of tests myself. And I must say, I recognize very little of what you claim is wrong with the game.