Fairey swordfish
 

Hi
In the British OOB unit 320 and 321 seem to have incorrect weapon configurations.
Ie fairy swordfish was a ship bourne torpedo bomber which as far as I can find carried either a torpedo a mine or rockets.
For the two bombs it is -incorrectly- equipped with one is the same weight as a Mine it could carry and the other is close to the weight of its 18 inch torpedo but in the wrong weight units.
see
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fairey_Swordfish
Best Regards Chuck

Re: Fairey swordfish
 

You mean, apart from when it is carrying bombs, or depth charges?.

A few seconds google on "fairey swordfish bomb" and we get, amongst others: swordfish
and:
Link2
and this one:
Link 3
where we get:
It was actually U-64, and it was dive bombed, not depth-charged.

Swordfish flew some night interdiction missions in North Africa, which is probably why the OOB designer included them.


Andy

Re: Fairey swordfish
 

Hi Mobhack
Would it be churlish of me to point out that none of the bomb configurations from your links match what you have in the game?
Best Regards Chuck.

Re: Fairey swordfish
 

Which is obviously the weapon the OOB designer seems to be representing here. Air dropped mines as HE weapons were sometimes used in WW2, by all sides.

Given the Swordfish is not a regular support plane, it would be useful in a scenario where it was doing a night raider type attack, delivering a "cookie" in support of, say, and LRDG attack, I suppose. But not really as a daylight attack aircraft, it would be dead meat.

It is there, and of a unit type that is only for human use, so you can use it if you want to, or ignore it if you do not.

Cheers
Andy

Re: Fairey swordfish
 

Hi Mobhack
Here is some more info on the mine
from
http://www.navweaps.com/Weapons/WAMBR_Mines.htm
At 1,500 lbs the mine is the A MARK I
"Originally designed to fit the same dropping gear as the 18 inch (45 cm) Mark XI torpedo. First used magnetic only triggering but later versions incorporated acoustic, acoustic-magnetic and magnetic-pressure triggering, although the last one was not used in service. Weight was about 1,500 lbs. (680 kg) with a 750 lbs. (340 kg) charge."
So we can see that using this mine as a bomb presents us with a problem, it doesnt have a contact trigger, so its not going to go off until a ship goes past.
Now you and I know that using such a mine as a bomb represents a flight of pure fantasy but what about the rest of your gaming community? they are going to think that sure its a real weapon, there it is in the OOBs after all. And of course its incorrect inclusion distorts play balance as well, the biggest bomb carried by British fighter bombers is 1000 lb, at 1500 lb this baby incorrectly allows a British player to hit his enemy much harder from the air than was really possible. So maybe it would be best to remove the swordfishes 1500lb and 750lb "bombs" (or should I say mine and torpedo) and give it its correct loadout (from your links) of three 500 lb bombs, or, two 550 lb and two 250 lb bombs?
Best Regards Chuck.

Re: Fairey swordfish
 

Find a book called "17 Seconds" in part it's about defusing German sea mines dropped over England as conventional light case bombs. I cannot speak to if the Swordfish did so but using sea mines as bombs was an established German tactic not a flight of fantasy as my parents can attest to having been on the receiving end.

Re: Fairey swordfish
 

Andy,

The "Stringbag" certainly has a place in the OOB as an attack aircraft: during the Norwegian Campaign (fiasco?) and Dunkirk evacuation it was used so (as was the Blackburn Skua, btw.). They were also available for use in the Mediterranean.

Bomb load would be either two 250lb or two 500lb bombs.

By May 1943 the Swordfish could also be equipped with eight 60lb rockets. Several squadrons were formed in the RAF with transferred Swordfish, and flew nocturnal "Channel Stop" sorties in the run-up to D-Day and beyond.

The last ones left front-line service in May 1945. (Having out-lived their successor by about two years!)

http://www.fleetairarmarchive.net/Ai.../Swordfish.htm

Re: Fairey swordfish
 

Hi Pat
I am not saying that the use of mines as bombs is a flight of fancy I am saying that the use of the British A Mark I mine as a bomb is a flight of fancy.
It cant work as a bomb for the reasons detailed above and any use of it as a cookie or any other type of biscuit is beyond the modeling abilities of the game. What scares me is that their is no concern over the fact that this creates a fighter bomber that will be used in PBEM that has way too large a bomb. One really wonders.
Best Regards Chuck.

Re: Fairey swordfish
 

Sorry Chuck but that is not what your post said.
(emphasis added)
As I remember air dropped mines are parachuted in so they don't disintegrate when they hit the water's surface from altitude. Once they land, the anti-lift trigger arms (in the German case it is in part a 17 second timer). If the mine is at a depth less than that set in the anti-lift trigger at the prescribed time after impact, the mine detonates. No contact fuse required on a land drop because the mine will never sink below sea level.
So it is entirely feasible that the Swordfish could use such a mine as a bomb - again I do not claim one ever did.
I respect your concern that a player might use the mine armed Swordfish but I give it no more weight than the player who might field a battalion of Brandenburgers, or 20 Sturmtigers or any number of Maus. There are no Olympic medals given out for playing SP nor are there any cash prizes for playing PBEM so if your opponent sends over flights of mine-carrying Swordfish, either politely ask him to historically justify his purchase or suck it up knowing you can have the points equivalent in fantasy German kit on your side of the board.

Re: Fairey swordfish
 

OH please !...... "What scares me" ??? You REALLY need to get a life Chuck. Find other interests, expand your horizons beyond worrying about virtually irrelevant micro details in a war game.

The overall bomb load weight that aircraft carried is correct at 1500 pounds, it's the combination of bombs that is MILDLY questionable. So all this whining and *****ing and hand wringing is whether it drops one 1500 pound bomb ( in the form of a "mine".... SO SORRY the guy who put this in years ago was being a bit too "creative" for you Chucky ) or two 750 pound bombs as opposed to the "actual" load of three 500 pounders or one 500 pounder and four 250 pound bombs as detailed in the link Andy provided. It is beyond ridiculous to even THINK having this aircraft loaded this way is grounds to "scare" anyone but WORRY NO MORE...... NO LONGER will you have to live in fear of flights of Swordfish blasting your poor defenceless Germans or Italians or Japanese to smithereens with their secret wonder weapon ( so effective that entire battles will swing on the possession of the device! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...s/rolleyes.gif ) The load has been changed, was changed in fact a couple of days ago and the overall effect on game play for 99.9999 % of the people playing will be next to nil.

Don

Re: Fairey swordfish
 

Hi pat
Ok maybe I should have said
'a mine, such as the A MARK I, as a bomb, represents a flight of pure fantasy '
or
'this mine as a bomb represents a flight of pure fantasy'
instead of
'a mine as a bomb represents a flight of pure fantasy'
the first sentence is the meaning I intended.
1500 lb and 750 lb bomb carrying swordfish remain a fantasy. You or anyone else, have yet to show that the mine can be, or ever was, used as a bomb, the "A MARK I" not some german mine.
People will use it, if your looking for a big bomb in your fighter bombers youll pick this one, its the biggest and clearly shouldnt be there.
If you buy Maus everyone knows its a what if If you buy either of these swordfish you think you have a valid piece of kit.
Best Regards Chuck.

Re: Fairey swordfish
 

Chuck:
It would be unfair to ask you to prove a negative. However since the Swordfish was a production aircraft that could carry a production 1500lb mine and dropping mines on land targets was a generally know tactic (regardless of the nation doing it), it is possible that in some operation somewhere during the war that a Swordfish dropped a mine as a ground attack weapon. In fact far more likely than the Maus seeing combat service. So yes I would call it a valid piece of kit, far more valid than some partial prototype super-tank.

Everyone else:
Sorry for feeding the troll.

Re: Fairey swordfish
 

Hi Pat
Well i dont accept that dropping mines on land was a generally accepted tactic, some quotes or references please.
Also i am not saying the Maus is a valid piece of kit I am saying that you know it is a "fantasy" equipment ie a "what if". the swordfish sneaks in as valid kit but is a fantasy. On your assumption that maybe it happened all sorts of other monstrosities can be included in the game. Maybe DORA shot point blank at tanks? its possible isnt it?
Best Regards Chuck.

Re: Fairey swordfish
 

Fortress Malta, James Holland. ISBN 140135186-7
page 112, Referring to the lack of effect of conventional and incendiary bombs on the architecture of Malta. from http://www.worldwar2exraf.co.uk/Onli...Theblitz4.html
Wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air-mine#Air_mines
emphasis added

From: http://www.bbc.co.uk/ww2peopleswar/s...a2065402.shtml
from http://www.candi.ac.uk/about/news/2005/141105blitz.asp
If that's not enough, I can call up my Dad and get a quote about the one that blew up the block one over from his during the blitz. My Maltese in-laws might have some eye witness accounts too.

Re: Fairey swordfish
 

Hi Pat
Ok so when you say "Generally Known tactic"
you mean the Germans had some and the British knew about it. The mine the Germans were dropping had an impact fuse, see
http://www.navweaps.com/Weapons/WAMGER_Mines.htm
"Weight 1,213 lbs. (550 kg) with a charge of 661 lbs. (300 kg). Had a 22 second delay impact fuze which detonated the mine if it fell in shallow water or dry land."
ie for the mine to work on the land it needs an impact fuse
If its any consolation the British did have some mines with impact fuses, the A Mark III see
http://www.navweaps.com/Weapons/WAMBR_Mines.htm
"Some were fitted for impact firing. Mark III*** was for dropping from Mosquitos at 260 knots from 300 feet (90 m) into inland waterways. Designed to be dropped from 4,000 lbs. (1,814 kg) bomb gear."
Note dropped from Mosquito not Swordfish.
No doubt they copied the German impact fuse.
You said
"it is possible that in some operation somewhere during the war that a Swordfish dropped a mine as a ground attack weapon"
It is clearly not possible unless the A Mark I mine has an impact fuse, which it has not.
In any case they are not heing used against tanks and infantry but against cities and in waterways do you really think they should be included in the game?
Best Regards Chuck.

Re: Fairey swordfish
 

Your assertion that: is thus proven wrong. Thank you for playing.

And for the record, that German time fuse was more of an anti- lift device than a purpose designed impact fuse.

Re: Fairey swordfish
 

Hi Pat
Well if you really want to be that pedantic then yes, but please note that my original assertion that the swordfish has two bogus bombs, 1500 lb and 750 lb has been proven correct.
Best Regards Chuck.

Re: Fairey swordfish
 

Has it really? Provide evidence then that a Swordfish never dropped a naval mine as a ground attack weapon.
And yes I'm being snarky - asking anyone to prove a negative is a cheap shot. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif Don has made the change that's good enough for me.

Re: Fairey swordfish
 

Hi Pat
I may have said this already, The A MARK I mine doesnt have an impact fuse, dropping it as a ground attack weapon is no different to dropping a 1500 lb lump of lead, you might just crush one infantryman. Which is why it was never used as a ground attack weapon.
Best Regards Chuck.

Re: Fairey swordfish
 

Impact detonation of British Aerial mines capable of being carried by the Fairey Swordfish

By design:
http://www.navweaps.com/Weapons/WAMBR_Mines.htm
Emphasis added.


By Accident
Fotress Malta -info given earlier
(spelling errors all mine) In February, an armourer was demonstrating - on dry land - how to arm the mine when it went off .

Theoretical
Given that most ships carrying Swordfish would have a workshop, an armourer could adapt a regular impact fuse to fit a mine.

To recap this post:
1) I have proven that the Mk III - Dimensionally equivalent to the MkI could be fitted with an impact fuse. No not the Mark III***.
2) The pilots carrying a "safe" mine were worried about accidental impact with a rock or pothole on take-off detonating the mine. It was not a "1500 lb lump of lead" Even when on "safe". Logically dropping a mine from altitude would have a much higher chance of detonation.
3) Royal Navy armourers almost certainly had the tools and skills to adapt a conventional bomb impact fuse to fit a mine.

Again - I am not saying any British aircraft ever dropped a mine as a ground attack weapon in the same fashion as the German airforces were known to have done.

And this is my last post on the matter - Sorry to the rest for involving you in this pi**ing contest.

Re: Fairey swordfish
 

Thank Christ.
Talk about shadow boxing phantoms.
Well I guess that though the Mk 3 mine was designed to be dropped from mosquito 4000 lb bomb gear that the swordfish didnt have, the armourer could have used some rope to attach it.
And why would you use the bombs the plane can carry when you can jury rig a mine with a impact fuse. Dont worry if you set it off and sink the ship, we really dont want to use these bombs.
You say "Dimensionally equivalent to the MkI" the ref only mentions that it is simlar, it may easily have been bigger and heavier.
There is also the problem of the service dates, the mine is available from 36 onwards but when did the A MARK III enter service I wonder?
Mk III and MkIII*** would be the same mine, they no doubt forgot to add the *** footnote.
Best Regards Chuck

Re: Fairey swordfish
 

RTFA

Re: Fairey swordfish
 

If only Chuck were put to good use on the game WWII Online - it would finally be realistic.

Chuck - you rule. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/laugh.gif

Re: Fairey swordfish
 

Man,

I didn't know people debate SO seriously about details in a war strategy game. Sounds like somebody rdy for a UFC fight! LOL:D