EpikBattel - Started
 

The starter of the previous thread, TrajanX, disappeared, so I'm making a new one for the game.

Game will be for 6 teams, each consisting of 2 players, new players preferred. Age is MA, map will be World of Geometry and I think we agreed on using Worthy Heroes mod.



Game will be hosted on Llamabeast's PBEM-server.

Signed players:
Team 1:
Zeldor - Mictlan
moderation - R'lyeh
Team 2:
Torin - Machaca
FrozenFalcon - Bandar Log
Team 3:
Agema - Arcoscephale
Niarg - C'tis
Team 4:
Bananadine - Abysia
Gregstorm - Pythium
Team 5:
otthegreat - Marignon
DonCorazon - Eriu
Team 6:
Networkingguru - Ermor
JZ - Oceania


Correct me if I'm wrong.

Game is now full.

My gaming experience is limited to playing against computers in Dom2 and 3, and a single blitz.

9 pretenders have been sent to the server, still waiting for three. No actual deadline, just send them as soon as you can.

Re: MA team game for new players, new thread
 

No chance for Conceptual Balance mod?

And what about increasing gold to 125 or 150 to make it more interesting?

Re: MA team game for new players, new thread
 

There were requests not to use CBM in the previous thread, I think.

I favour standard settings on gold/resources/research myself - mostly because I'm still very new to the game and want a chance to get used to the default behaviour of the races.

My total MP experience is:
Lost 2 MP games, 1 game ongoing but in a reasonable position.

Re: MA team game for new players, new thread
 

Gregstrom:

We have agreed on WoG, that is more adventurous map and it introduces new players to new type of game - cumulative VP. I think no one played that before, even in SP.

I bring the 125-150% gold only because it would make late game more interesting, with that battles for central island.

Re: MA team game for new players, new thread
 

I agree with bringing the gold up to 125-150%. I have played SP a fair amount but difficult AI still slaps me around. This would be my first multiplayer game.

Re: MA team game for new players, new thread
 

I'd still rather we had a game at the default settings, especially as this will be the first MP game for most of us.

My experience is dabbling in SP and not started an MP game yet (I only got the game recently).

Re: MA team game for new players, new thread
 

My advice: _Really_ don't play on World of Geometry, it's far too big for 12 players. I mean, it's fine (really cool in fact), but only if you're deliberately setting out to play a huge game, which is the case for the other group of players who are just starting a game on it. I would definitely not play your first MP game on it. It will go on for ever, be micromanagement hell and put you all off. I normally aim for about 15 provinces/player or a bit less. Cradle of Dominion would be a nice map if you get a few more players. I've actually just started a game on that with 19 players, but 14 or so would be a very reasonable number.

If you stay at 8 players then I have a modified version of the Parganos map which I think is excellent for 8. The modifications are to make it a fairer map, because the default version has excessive clustering of terrain types, meaning e.g. one player ends up with all the farms, another with all the wasteland.

I have to say I would also leave things like income on default. People very rarely change those settings and I don't know why you'd want to - they're about right as they are.

Re: MA team game for new players, new thread
 

Hi its me again! I'm having trouble with the Worthy Heroes mod. The computer keeps complaining about it being an RAR file or something. Help please.

Re: MA team game for new players, new thread
 

Big map is a good thing http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif I really think WoG is the best map to play on available now.

Re: MA team game for new players, new thread
 

otthegreat:

Did you unpack it into /mod folder in Dominions3 folder?

Re: MA team game for new players, new thread
 

Well we have only 8 players now, and if it stays like that I think we should take heed on Llamabeast's suggestion and play a smaller map, maybe that customized Parganos.

Otthegreat: Mod is packed into a rar file. You have to unpack it to the /mod folder. Like Zeldor said.

Re: MA team game for new players, new thread
 

I"m quite experienced - behold my mighty post-count! - but I do love team games and would be happy to be either paired with a relative newbie, or given, say, Ulm.

Unclaimed nations that I like and haven't played in a while (in order of preference): Arcoscephale, Oceania, T'ien Ch'i, Pythium.

Nations that would count as a handicap at least if I play them: Ulm, Caelum (boy do I suck at Caelum), Agartha, Shinuyama.

Re: MA team game for new players, new thread
 

Zeldor - big map is a subjective thing at best. Personally I would probably not join a game now that went as high as 20 provinces/player let alone thirty - I just don't enjoy the crazy micromanagement and hour-long turns. This is of course very much a matter of personal taste though, and many players really enjoy the epic feel of larger maps - that's very cool, and I envy their patience. I really feel it would be a mistake for people to play their first ever MP games on such a big map though. That's just my two cents (or rather pence!), but it's a reasonably strongly-felt two pence with a fair bit of experience behind it (regard my even mightier post count! - though Dr P is probably a good bit more experienced than me and just less verbose).

This is of course, however, not actually a game I'm in, so I'll keep my nose out now.

Re: MA team game for new players, new thread
 

DrP:

I think you would beat everyone here even with Ulm... that is a newbie game so Ulm is quite nice for that. The same Caelum.

llamabeast:

Yeah, I understand it. I personally love maps that give every player some time to develop and grow. I got 3 MP games and all gave around 10 provinces per nation so I am sick of it. They give almost no strategic choices, especially with pretender creation. And I really do not want to play so small maps without CB mod, cause it really limits nation choice for me.

Re: MA team game for new players, new thread
 

Well, I know nothing about existing maps, but I think we should try and reach a compromise about the map size. Llamabeast thinks that a huge map is not very suitable for new players, and at opposite, Zeldor is sick and tired about the small maps. WoG has 337 provinces, so it would be almost 30 provinces for a player. It may lead to boredom, so would there be a map with 15-20 provinces per player (this may be difficult to tell because we haven't locked the player amount yet)?

But as I've said, anything goes for me. If it is ok for all players and we get the full 12 (and another water nation) we can try WoG; all honor to your knowledge and experience, Llamabeast, but I think that the players should decide the map.

Of course, the new players may not have any perspective about the map sizes, so it's good to informate them about it. And I too would prefer a bit smaller map.

Re: MA team game for new players, new thread
 

I was sure we agreed on WoG in previous thread http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif There are many garrisons and special territories [plains are hard to keep] so it doesn't feel like a huge map. And we play teams and focus on VP so no one will have to conquer all provinces, you can even keep that 20-30 provinces and have chances to win.

But of course that is just my opinion and I am not hosting the game. I think we should stick with WoG if we have 12 players and change to something smaller if we are not able to find 12 newbie people let's say till the end week.

Re: MA team game for new players, new thread
 

Sorry to bother you with this again but I can't find a /mod folder. There are folders titled: battlemaps, doc, maps, rawsound, and tutdata but thats it.

Re: MA team game for new players, new thread
 

Then you need to create one. Just name it 'mods' [not 'mod'].

Re: MA team game for new players, new thread
 

Despite the huge size, WoG seems like a map I want to test, so ok, let's wait for 12 players, since there has been no objections.

Re: MA team game for new players, new thread
 

My experience, again: I've played half a dozen single-player games, a couple of which were fairly large. I've become decently skilled against the AI but I haven't played against humans.

Re: MA team game for new players, new thread
 

i would like to play. dont know wich nation yet.
ive played about half a dozen MP games. didnt win any.

Re: MA team game for new players, new thread
 

Torin added. Post your nation here when you have chosen it.

Re: MA team game for new players, new thread
 

I will join as oceania

Re: MA team game for new players, new thread
 

I am in. Need to decide on a nation though (I HATE MA http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/frown.gif ). Love the WoG map, BUt I think it is going to get boring before it gets over.

Re: MA team game for new players, new thread
 

I would like machaka or a water nation if that is needed for balance

Re: MA team game for new players, new thread
 

OK, decided. Let me give Ermor a shot. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Re: MA team game for new players, new thread
 

Torin:

With WoG we have 2 slots for water nations, both are already taken http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Networkingguru:

MA is the best age http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif Has advantages of both EA or MA.

Re: MA team game for new players, new thread
 

I would trust Llamabeast's advice on map, but will defer to the group. As for MP games, I am playing a few now, have yet to play any games (MPvor SP) past midgame.

Re: MA team game for new players, new thread
 

I say that we have a relatively small map. Since we're all fairly new (some of us don't have any MP experience) we'll want to actually fight sooner rather than just taking provinces for ages.

I'll vote for following llamabeasts advice.

Re: MA team game for new players, new thread
 

Deciding on the map:
Niarg's opinion: go for relatively small map
DonCorazon's : same
Zeldor's: WoG
Networkingguru's: WoG would get boring in the end
FrozenFalcon's: Anything goes

Now, that's just five opinions of the eleven, but we just have to presume that the others are ok with our choice. So would some who knows about existing maps tell me, if there are any balanced 15-20-provinces per player maps for this many players (assuming we wait for the twelfth player)? I think it would be a good compromise, since Zeldor doesn't want a very small map and others dont like it very big. We can play WoG some other time.

And I'm sorry if my opinion of the map seems changy, but that just is because I don't really have an opinion.

Re: MA team game for new players, new thread
 

Cradle of Dominion would be about the size you're looking for I think (221 provinces = just over 18/player). It's also very pretty and has lots of interesting choke points and so on.

Re: MA team game for new players, new thread
 

Anyone against Cradle of Dominion?

One question about hosting a teamgame: how well is player positioning handled in Dominions? Since this is team game, it would be nice (allthough not necessary) that teaming players started near each other. And the teamgame, is it anyhow managed with the server or is it just rules above the game mechanics, that player themselves need to follow?

Re: MA team game for new players, new thread
 

Automatic player positioning is decent although not especially evenly distributed, but it definitely won't do team placement properly. The thing to do is place the start positions manually. I guess or any other player not actually involved in the game can do that.

Dominions doesn't really have the idea of team play at all (it's every god for himself), so its the players themselves who have to follow rules. Don't move your army into your teammate's army, for instance.

Re: MA team game for new players, new thread
 

I have no special map preference. I just hope that anybody who thinks they might get bored on whatever map we choose is willing to commit to playing anyway, if they're going to be part of the game! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Re: MA team game for new players, new thread
 

Well spoken, Bananadine.

How are we handling team assignments?

Re: MA team game for new players, new thread
 

The problem with most of the maps except for WoG [and some others] is that if all players have the same skill starting positions can really influence a lot who wins. I have seen that on Uraparrand - there are extremely good and bad starting positions available. Cradle of Dominions doesn't look fair too. And placing teams on not-wraparound map with irregular shape will be impossible.

I vote so heavily for WoG not because it is big, but because every players has the same starting location and it is only up to his skill and diplomacy, not luck.

Re: MA team game for new players, new thread
 

im in favor of a wraparound

Re: MA team game for new players, new thread
 

The thing is, unfairness due to placement pales into insignifance compared to the "injustices" resulting from diplomacy, particular nations' differences etc.. Dominions just isn't the kind of game where you can aim for that.

I mean, imagine you start next to MA Ermor. If you're Ulm, you're probably stuffed - there's no way you can deal with all those undead. If you're C'tis or Pythium, you'll laugh at them. This is "unfair", but interesting, so I don't think it's necessarily a bad thing. Actually I think it's very cool. You just have to remember that Dominions is not chess.

Sorry Zeldor, I'm sure I'm really winding you up here, because you obviously really want to play on World of Geometry and I'm obviously not being very encouraging for that on this thread. This is just because I really, really like Dominions and I want other people to get into it too, so it's hard not to offer advice which I think will make people enjoy the game more, and I honestly feel that playing on such a huge map for your first MP game (not yours, but some other players') is a terrible idea. Regardless, if this game does not end up being played on WoG, you can always just make a new post for a World of Geometry game, explicitly stating it is a massive map and the game will last a long time (six months to a year I'd guess) and you will have enough players in no time, and I would be more than happy to host the game for you.

Incidentally I have to agree that WoG is a lovely map. I wonder if Twan would be interested in making a version with less provinces. And also, apologies again for poking my nose in.

Re: MA team game for new players, new thread
 

Sounds like you guys still need a final player. I'll join in as Arcoscephale.

Re: MA team game for new players, new thread
 

After some thought, I'm with Llamabeast on the map issue. An over-large map would be pretty bad for micromanagement. And I'd rather have an interesting game than a prefectly balanced one, too.

Re: MA team game for new players, new thread
 

llamabeast:

I don't care about nearby nations, I care about getting 3 or 6 capitol neighbours. Or getting wasteland only or bad terrains. Or having 4 or 5 nations near me, while others have for example 2. And even with diplomacy the one with better starting position has diplomacy options too and will use them.

I just want to play on a fair map. I love dominions, but 95% maps are good only on SP, not MP. Twan made a great map like WoG, but it is the only one that is really good and supports MP games [except for really small maps].

Re: MA team game for new players, new thread
 

im ok with WoG. or a Wraparaound instead of an unbalanced map. unbalanced=boring.

Re: MA team game for new players, new thread
 

Well, I guess that's obviously subjective. I don't think it's generally considered much of a problem, and it's not like there hasn't been many MP games going on. There are of course a few notably unbalanced maps (e.g. unmodified Parganos), which I agree should be avoided. But such problems are easily corrected - e.g. if manually placing start positions (which I recommend), you should simply choose start positions with similar numbers of neighbours. And putting one player in the middle of a load of wasteland or something would be silly, so you wouldn't do it. With Parganos I just altered a lot of the terrain so it is much fairer.

I have to agree that letting Dominions do the capital placement and using random maps both tend to lead to quite unfair positions, and aren't as good an idea.

Actually you've just pretty much listed the problems which can be easily fixed by manual capital placement.

Re: MA team game for new players, new thread
 

llamabeast:

It really narrows map choices. I hope Twan makes a smaller map http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif I will take a look at new Parganos, but Crafle isn't wraparound and that alone makes it unbalanced [there is no way to have balance even with manualy placing capitols]. And with a team play [I know that is not dominions goal, but it is fun] it is even harder. You need 2 players as one place but both need enough space to expand.

P.S. Parganos would be too small for that game...

Re: MA team game for new players, new thread
 

How many teams?

If it's six pairs and-no-water, you could use the map from allegiances 2, which is the best balance we could get without wrap-around.

Each pair of teams is arranged as spokes on a wheel, and the distances among teams and territory easily available to each team are very close to equal. But again, it has no water.

Re: MA team game for new players, new thread
 

We have now 12 players. Now, Zeldor seems to absolutely want to play WoG. Llamabeast, have you played the map, and can you absolutely say that it really takes months to finish, or is your estimation based on purely the province count? Because WoG does have that Victory Province.

I think that even "unbalanced" map works, there's always luck included in the game, like Llamabeast said, this is not chess. And because being in a good position gives you advantage, it also gives you diplomatical disadvantage if players find this out, because advantage makes threat and being threatening can be disadvantage.

Zeldor, if we choose Cradle of Dominion, can you play it, or are you absolutely against it? We have 12 players now, so when we get the map decided we can set a deadline for Pretenders and start playing. Of course, we need to set teams.

Re: MA team game for new players, new thread
 

Nope, I haven't played the map, and the estimated time is just from map size. I guess the VP might help. It's very hard to judge how it might work out actually.

Dr P's suggestion does sound like a good third option to me. I believe they put a good deal of thought into it.

There is of course also always the possibility of making it two games - one for those who want WoG, one for those who would like a smaller map.

Just so everyone knows by the way, this degree of indecision doesn't normally happen when organising MP games. This one's been unusual because the original organiser disappeared and it's sort of been organised by committee. Generally the organiser just acts as a benevolent dictator.

Re: MA team game for new players, new thread
 

Hmmmm, after looking through the maps, my vote is for Cradle of Dominions or a similar sized one. Dr. P's suggestion sounds good except don't we have a couple of water nations?

World of Geometry is far too large, with 337 provinces, for 12 people.

Re: MA team game for new players, new thread
 

If you guys want to make sure that the game finishes in a reasonable amount of time, use Victory Point accumulation. First player to reach threshold - his team wins (even if he is eliminated.)

Arrange six pairs of start locations like spokes on a wheel on any old random map. With one water team, ~1/6 of the area should be water (which is about 1/10 of the provinces so the water players have to have some presence on land if they wish to compete.)

Place 6 victory points on the map, one in between each spoke. You might want to put some other bonuses in those province as well.

Someone will certainly have accumulated 7 VP by year 4, 10 VP by year 5, or 15 VP by year 6 - and that's an upper limit, it could easily end much sooner.

Getting the water right is actually the hardest part of such a map - but if you tell me how many provinces you want I can post an example.

Re: MA team game for new players, new thread
 

How does victory points actually work? You get one from a VP province each month and a certain limit is set?

Another question: WoG has four "Gateways" that supposedly lead to the isle. How do they work? Is there some sort of teleportation on game mechanics of is the Gateway part just some lore stuff and you cannot really go through gateways?

But since we have gathered 12 players, and we have 2 water nations, just for WoG, I want to try it.

Our team experiences are near similar, so I'll randomize the rest (Zeldor and HJFudge gaining a minor advantage when choosing teams but let's just not care about that).

Llamabeast is probably right that listening to everyone's opinion takes time, so I'll declare myself a dictator and make the rest of the decisions.

Teams:

HJFudge and Zeldor
FrozenFalcon and Torin
DonCorazon and Niarg
Bananadine and Gregstorm
otthegreat and MartialDoctor
BigandScary and Networkingguru

Since there's new information (the teams and map decided) everyone absolutely against these decisions can leave now. We cannot make everyone happy. The teams (except for the first one) are completely random.

Then, I need to decide on Pretender deadline (is 3 days ok?) and then Llamabeast can host the server.

To make decisions about victory points I need to know the answers for my questions asked in this post.