US Sniper rifle???
 

I was wondering what sniper rifle is modelled for the US in WinSPWW2??? Is it the M1903A4 or the M1C Rifle?

Thanks,
Dep

Re: US Sniper rifle???
 

A quick look at the stats pretty much clearly shows it to be the M1 Garand (Weapon 112), but with 30 Acc.

Re: US Sniper rifle???
 

It's "a sniper rifle" and has all the same stats as all the other "sniper rifles" same as the Belgian "sniper rifle" or the Polish "sniper rifle" or the Swedish "sniper rifle" or any other "sniper rifle" from any other nation. You can think of it as a M1903A4 or a M1C or whatever you like. In this game a "sniper rifle" is the same no matter whos using it

Don

Re: US Sniper rifle???
 

That's what I get for not checking it against the other OOBs when I checked quickly.

Re: US Sniper rifle???
 

The rifle they use doesnt make much odds. Theyre still Supermen. Extremely difficult to kill by infantry at more than 50 metres and they'll take even veteran troops with them before they finally go down. I don't have an issue with snipers shooting from concealled positions and causing havoc - that's their job - but once spotted they should be easy to polish off IMHO. Alas not so, not unless they're moving fast.

Re: US Sniper rifle???
 

And this is one of the problems with the game as well as sniper rifles specifically in the game.....the tendency too lump them all as "being equal. Quite simply, they AREN'T. I really don't understand this "everything is equal" concept for the OOBs. Were people just not interested in doing the research for individual weapon's abilities, or is this some kind of effort to not discriminate or hurt feelings against any one particular nationality?

I did some research and the 1903A4 sniper rifle wasn't available until early 1943. The M1C Garand sniper rifle was available in limited quantities starting in July, 1944. And the M1D Garand sniper rifle wasn't approved until September 1944. Only 7,971 M1C sniper rifles were ever built. Very few M1D sniper rifles saw service in the Korean War and NONE saw service in WW2.

There are FIVE different sniper unit descriptions in the OOB for the USA. (063, 156, 162, 323 and 324). Three of them (063, 323 and 324) show sniper rifles from 1930 to 1949. The other two show starting dates of 1/42 and 11/42. So ALL of this data is WRONG. The 1903A4 sniper rifle didn't arrive until 1943. All of these units show ONE sniper rifle...number 146.

As to the capabilities of US sniper rifles...they were not exactly spectacular. The 1903A4 was just a standard production run 1903A3 Springfield Rifle made by Remington. They were taken off the standard assembly line. No special checking was done of it's accuracy. Remington won the contract for them and all they did was bolt on a cheap (2.2 power) commercial scope, modify the bolt handle to clear the scope, remove the front sight, and install the scope mount and scope. This is in contrast to the German and Russian sniper rifles which were selected based on their individual accuracy and had a 4 or 3.5 power scope mounted on them. As long as a "casual" attitude about the weapons used in the game is maintained, realism is going to suffer.

Dep

Re: US Sniper rifle???
 

This is a battalion level game, and for those purposes, the micro-differences between one bolt action rifle and another, or between one SMG and another is irrelevant. Thus, like any other set of 1/300 tabletop wargames rules which simply have "Rifle", "SMG" and "AsR" class weapons, a "sniper rifle" is treated the same way.

Plus, given the points system, there would be no noticeable difference in cost between a bolt rifle and a bolt rifle+ equipped section, since the values would be too small to make a difference. Not unless you used a system where a Sherman tank cost say around 1000 points, not 50 or so.

If you need to play a game where these micro-differences apply, then you should probably be looking for a section-level game, or maybe platoon at the highest, where you are being charged points for each hand grenade issued, different amounts for a single .45 round and a 9mm etc.

Cheers
Andy

Re: US Sniper rifle???
 

Well Dep the one sniper rifle for all was a design decision made years ago. If you want it changed you can open up MOBHack and change it but we are not going to. If the scope of the game was squad sized combat it might make sense to further refine the entire game data a bit more but not at the existing game scale. You obviously disagree but I suspect as long as you post here we are going to find ourselves on opposite sides of just about every game related issue if your previous posts are any indicator.

The only thing funny about all this is how some people, you included, think tinkering with something like sniper rifle accuracy for each and every nation is going to make any kind of significant change in the overall game. After fighting 45 turns with 350 units per side do you think the game result will be any different if one sides "sniper rifle" accuracy is 28 and the other is 26? The "Accuracy" of the weapon is just one of many factors the game uses to calculate a snipers accuracy. It's like adding one drop of colour to 5 gallons of paint and then claim that makes the colour "more accurate".

Your posts consistently show an lack of understanding about the game and it's not getting any better . First it's "death rays attached to the bombs" then completely off the wall complaints that the OOBs are slanted to give an Allied advantage and now your latest where you claim that "ALL of this data is WRONG" in regards to US sniper units then you argue about which sniper rifle was available when we have already said the sniper rifle in every OOB is generic. Please try to pay attention. There are three generic US "Snipers" that run from 1930 until the end of the game with three different "fire control" and Range finder" settings because that is how we set up snipers with differing basic abilities ( then all the other factors such as morale, training, etc, etc are factored in when they are used in the game.) It has NOTHING to do with any specific sniper rifles introduction. The other two snipers in the US OOB are Airborne and Ranger Snipers and are only introduced at "1/42 and 11/42" to fit into Airborne and Ranger formations and both are given the maximum FC and RF "abilty" due to their "elite" status but I will repeat again, those dates have nothing to do with any specific sniper rifles introduction and you should have seen that yourself



Don

Re: US Sniper rifle???
 

Mobhack and DRG: I understand "This is a battalion level game" and that for MOST people things like sniper rifle info isn't important. But I'm sure a lot of folks like to have things as accurate as possible. Having a sniper rifle available months or even years before they were even produced may not mean much to guys moving masses of tanks around in the sim. But since this sim IS based on history, why purposely have the info incorrect? If sniper rifle data is meaningless, why even incorporate snipers into the sim??
It's the very DETAILS of the weapons and equipment that attracts lots of guys to this sim. I'm not asking the company or designers to incorporate all these, to them, nitpicky errors into a new patch or update. But it might be worth it to keep all this info recorded SOMEWHERE so that any individuals who do release an OOB correction would have it available. BTW...I HAVE seen a scenario where sniper vs sniper were the ONLY combatants. It was a nifty recreation of the "Enemy at the Gates" movie. It was a blast to play.

I have ONE more comment and then I will withdraw. Yesterday I was playing a generated campaign and noticed that when I blew a US tank apart with an 88, the Infantry troops riding on the outside of it all hopped off it and NONE were injured. This happened REPEATEDLY in the game. That is about as unrealistic as it gets. I have seen the results of troops riding on armored vehicles when the vehicle is hit by an RPG. Very few of them could walk, much less continue to engage the enemy. The Sherman tank had the nickname of "Zippo" among the US troops because of it's tendency to blow up in flames due to it using gasoline as a fuel. I can imagine the ghastly results of riding on a Sherman when it gets hit with an anti-tank round. But in WinSPWW2 they just hop off the tank and continue to march. Good grief!

Dep

Re: US Sniper rifle???
 

The sniper rifle data is not meaningless. Its that small variations have such a negligible effect on the game that having anything other than a generic "sniper rifle" is more about name flavor than about stats. You could create every small arm you can think of and incorporate it in game, but the differences would be so small that it simply would not be worth it in the end. Furthermore, if you tried to make them all different you'd probably quickly find that it makes some inaccurately powerful because there isn't enough room to maneuver at this scale in the stats. Furthermore, remember that the training and relative skill of the marksman is not included in the stats for the sniper unit entirely, but in the stats for the weapon, and that the acc figures are as much a comment on the sniper's personal ability as the weapon's base accuracy.

Furthermore, do you have information that suggests that since there was no specific rifle that there were no snipers or marksman? I just don't know, but I think that would be much more of a case to modify the dates at which snipers can be bought than the existence of a type of rifle that it has already been suggested has little to no bearing on any specific type.

Re: US Sniper rifle???
 

A myth, it was due to unexperienced US crew in African campaign often keeping all kinds of flammable stuff inside the tank and due to relatively exposed ammo in pre-wet storage. Under combat conditions there is nil difference between diesel and gasoline in flammability after penetration.
Just for illustration, German tanks are hardly considered "Zippos" and they used gasoline as well. And they even had worse fuel storage (Sherman got the fuel separated from the crew at least).

As for the tank riders, hey, maybe they're just naturally good at spotting 88 fire and quickly jumping from the tank?

Re: US Sniper rifle???
 

As I understand it many US marine snipers where using a variety of private target and hunting rifles through and after the war because they where either the weapon they knew or else they (the sniper) concidered them better than the standard issue item; sort of like thompson's being better than M16's really.

Re: US Sniper rifle???
 

Again,if you are only interested in manuvering around huge formations of tanks and troops, snipers aren't all that relevant. Snipers didn't enter into the picture in any quantity for the US until AFTER D-Day. As far as I can tell, pretty much every flavor of small arm HAS been included in the game. Although there are still some missing. Truck drivers and tank crews WERE armed with small arms like M3 Greaseguns and Carbines, not just a 1911A1 and a grenade. Heck, I doubt most truck drivers and tank crews HAD grenades with them unless they begged some from an Infantryman.

Were there "snipers" without sniper rifles? I would say NO. Snipers can fire out to ranges far greater than an ordinary rifleman. But they do that becasue of their rifle. Were there "marksman". Yes, most definitey. But being accurate with a rifle still doesn't make you a "sniper".

Here's my bottom line...the sniper rifles and snipers of Germany and Russia were probably the best in WW2. And the sim should represent that. Saying all sniper rifles and snipers are "equal" is like saying a Sherman tank is equal to a Tiger tank is equal to a T-34 is equal to a Churchill. Will snipers matter for those playing huge tank battles or human wave attacks? Of course not. But everyone DOESN'T play that type of battle in WinSPWW2.
If the sniper is that meaningless, just delete him and move on. Otherwise, let's try and get the OOB to at least reflect SOME kind of historical accuracy. You wouldn't want a Tiger tank to pop up in 1939 would you??? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...s/rolleyes.gif

Dep

Re: US Sniper rifle???
 

Dep, you're a troll and I'm calling you on that. You twist every perceived "error" to prove your point but the argument is totally bogus. We stated right from the beginning that "in this game a "sniper rifle" is the same no matter who's using it" I said you could think of it by any name you like . You twisted that into some kind of damning evidence that we are providing "a sniper rifle available months or even years before they were even produced " when in fact snipers and "sniper rifles" have been used by the US Army and USMC in every war it participated in in the 20th century. During WW1 the USMC used the Springfield 1903 with 5x Lyman and Winchester A5 scopes. During WW2 and later they mostly used Springfield 1903A1 rifles with the 8x Unertl scope and Springfield 1903A4 with the same scopes than the US Army (M73B1) and in WW1 and the interwar years the US Army used the Springfield 1903 as well so there's your "sniper rifle". It doesn't matter one iota if snipers did or didn't "enter into the picture in any quantity for the US until AFTER D-Day" The point is they DID exist and are in the OOB.

Even suggesting that the decision to make all sniper rifles equal is the same as "saying a Sherman tank is equal to a Tiger tank is equal to a T-34 is equal to a Churchill" is complete and utter bull**** as is the remark "You wouldn't want a Tiger tank to pop up in 1939 would you?". Neither remark as ANY bearing on sniper rifles and does nothing to advance the idea that they are so it's trolling simply to stir up [censored].

Go away. You're really starting to piss me off.

Don

Re: US Sniper rifle???
 

Firstly, I'd like to say that the statement that "Snipers didn't enter into the picture in any quantity for the US until AFTER D-Day" seems to be confused by your assertion that the purpose built M1903A4 had been around since early 1943, and that you only speculate that there were no snipers using other types of rifles or basic infantry rifles before hand.

I fully disagree with your assertion that a sniper rifle makes a sniper. That just seem to make sense in my mind. A sniper is a sniper if he's treated as such regardless of the weapon he uses. Marine snipers in Vietnam used commercial Winchester Model 70s, or are you suggesting these weapons were specifically designed for unparalleled accuracy at some magic "sniper" range (ie, over 800-1000 yds)?

As for every flavor of small arms being included in the game, it is very far from being complete in my opinion. Those that are included are often included for name flavor only as I had asserted earlier. Generic pistol, shotgun, and sniper rifle weapons are in the OOBs, which already create a whole swath of modeled weapons, as does treating every Thompson the same way, and not including lesser known SMGs, or even suppressed SMGs (maybe that's worth a stat point somewhere). There simply is not enough room for variation in my mind to make these tweaks worth the effort, especially when there's nothing to suggest they have a noticeable effect on game play, and the game's cost calculator using its assumptions about what affects game play relative to cost usually agrees.

I've done a fair amount of OOB editing in the last two years and played around with all sorts of things, and when it comes to small arms, let me say that the only small arm I felt compelled to create was a fully-automatic shotgun, as different from the standard shotgun. I felt a reasonable HEK increase was warranted because of the fact that the weapon was no longer in the generic shotgun class. Beyond that, everything else has been for flavor. Saying that all sniper rifles are equal in terms of this game is no where near saying a jeep is equal to a tank which seems to be the extreme comparison you're looking for. You simply don't have that kind of flexibility if you try and make it fit with other existing game stats for all classes of weapons.

If you believe the Russian and German snipers were better up the exp in the formation or the stats of the unit. Trying to up their ability by mucking with the weapon stats will likely leave you disappointed and still complaining about the inability of them to perform better then their wannabe more accurate than usual American brethren. Most of my OOB work has been in creating specialist infantry, not more jacked up vehicles, and let me tell you this yields more definitive results than weapon stats. Militia using a my "assorted rifles" weapon, don't make use of the fact that it actually has better stats than the M16 weapon if their -10 exp and morale in their formations.

And lastly, you're still equating meaningless to inaccurate in your mind. The sniper is not meaningless, especially if the one comment from another user about them picking people of all over the place and being impossible to kill is at all true. They are most definitely an important factor in the game and do have a place. You seem to want to suggest that if it can't be 110% accurate then it should be nixed from the game. At that point, you might as well hack out all infantry units because of your assertion that all the small arms must have unique stats.

Re: US Sniper rifle???
 

The same for Germans and, well, everyone. Specialised sniper rifles were always in short supply and civillian hunting etc. rifles were used, as well as makeshift field mounts on general issue rifles.

Re: US Sniper rifle???
 

Don,
I congradulate you and others on making a "perfect" sim that functions in WinXP http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...s/rolleyes.gif. In the future I will consult with other users in PM who feel the same as me concerning OOB and other errors. Goodbye.

Dep

Re: US Sniper rifle???
 

Thanks. It's just about the best Christmas present I could ask for.

Now..........if anyone else thinks the game has "death rays attached to the bombs" or that "The P-51 Mustang seems to be a flying Tiger tank. " or that "the OOBs slanted so much at an Allied advantage in WinSPWW2 that altering the Preferences makes no difference whatsoever" or that even when the game user preferences are reduced to the lowest possible number for the US side you think that " Even with those changes in the preferences, the US Infantry appear to be supersoldiers." or that you totally misinterpret the help manual info that... "HE Kill - the value of the round at killing soft targets. Bigger is better!." and then jump to the conclusion that this means "it's only measuring the size (diameter) of the projectile vs it's damage to humans" ( HE kill has nothing to do with warhead size if this is too confusing ) and then claim " the OOBs are going to need some major reworking to get them correct. " or if you want try to make the point that there is ". No way!! " the " Thompson and MP38/40 is shown as having a 3 hex range." because you think "each hex is 250 meters across " ( it's fifty and always has been and even SP3 was "only "200 yards across ).......IF any of you reading this believe all that ( or even some of it... ) Please follow Dep off this forum.

http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...s/rolleyes.gif ........and all that came out in less than 40 posts

I am quite willing to discuss real or imagined flaws in the game but all this was so over the top as to be trollish.

Don

Re: US Sniper rifle???
 

As said this is a Bn level game. So generic bolt action-rifle, self-loading rifle, assault rifle will have the same generic characteristics. Also you can find out that different snipers have different fire control and range finder values, that has an effect on firing both moving and stationary targets, that try to simulate better training and optics of different snipers.

Pics of what rifle this or that sniper has is irrelevant. In MBT, snipers sometimes have dragunov as a pic or some old scoped bolt-action, when they should have "correct" pic of scoped SLR, PSG-90, whatever. You can say that pics are wrong, but there´s always something wrong. Do not use the pics as a reference what this sniper is currently carrying.

The problem of making different rifles matter is as said, the scope of the game. You can do your research and do it yourself. If the developers would do it, there would millions of people arguing that this rifle is actually better than the other one, and this is so unreliable, that it can´t have any better stats that that other piece. This is a compromise to make generic sniper rifles to end such pointless discussions, considering this is a battalion level game. As everybody likes or dislikes their personal weapons and find some other better for them, there would be an unbelievable amount of threads considering only different sniper rifles and game designer would be swamped, if they tried to really evaluate these minute differences, not considering the pressures of national prides still at stake in this world. When the sniper rifles would be evaluated, there should be different rifles and SMGs and for the sake of it, flamethrowers and hand grenades, you can see where this is going, huh?

Re: US Sniper rifle???
 

I just wish there was some way to send this crappy game (with the designer's attitudes it doesn't deserve to be called a "simulation") back for a refund. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/mad.gif

Re: US Sniper rifle???
 

Crappy because you don't have every specific sniper rifle you want? That's just a bit extreme.

Re: US Sniper rifle???
 

Nope...if you have ever played the previous incarnation of this game, the SIMULATION called Steel Panthers: World at War, you will see that with input from users of the sim, it CAN be made much better. The developers of this game seem to think it has reached perfection, even though there are numerous people doing fixes to the OOB. I haven't seen this much negativity about user input since the days of the HIND helicopter simulation. Make an honest mistake in a comment and a wiseacre mod keeps throwing it back in your face OVER AND OVER AND OVER again. Yet they REFUSE to see the errors present in the game. Or they blow them off as "not having a major effect on gameplay". because it doesn't affect the way THEY play the game. Unbelieveable.
SP:WAW is no longer getting support from the original design team. But people are so loyal to that sim that they are constantly coming out with mods that make it more and more authentic as well as more enjoyable to play. As far as I can see, WinSPWW2 is at a dead end. NO input is welcome, whether good or bad, unless the person giving the input meets with their "approval". The mods and designers are so thin-skinned that ANY criticism, even if there are mistakes in the criticism, is ridiculed or dismissed outright. The forum at SP:WAW is active to this day with helpful posts and comments from users and mods. This forum is all but dead. The mods actually seem to discourage any changes because they think WinSPWW2 has reached some kind of "perfection".
Sniper rifles is just ONE SMALL example I picked out from MANY problems in the sim. But the mods have intimidated or discouraged pretty much ALL input from users. So be it. The best thing you can say about WinSPWW2 is they got it running good on WinXP. That's about it.

Dep

Re: US Sniper rifle???
 

Nope...if you have ever played the previous incarnation of this game, the SIMULATION called Steel Panthers: World at War,

http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...s/rolleyes.gif

Hey genius; the previous incarnation of this game was Steel Panthers 1. SP WaW is Matrix Games' own take at updating Steel Panthers.

Re: US Sniper rifle???
 

Tsk tsk...such namecalling!!! Hey EINSTEIN, SP:WAW came out BEFORE WinSPWW2. But they are BOTH based on Steel Panthers.
http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...ies/tongue.gif

Re: US Sniper rifle???
 

From the Game Guide, right up front in the "What is WinSPMBT" section:

This is a wargame. It is not a "sim", you are the only one who keeps calling it so. If you want a tank sim - try Steel Beasts. It's used by militaries, in the "Pro" version. It apparently has a physics model for shell flight etc. And as explained before, for the sort of micro-detail between personal weapon types you seem to want, then there are real-time "squad level" games out there that may be regarded as sims, but I think they sell themselves as games rather than as simulations, per se.

So this is a wargame - a computer version of the 1/300 tabletop rules with micro-armour and model villages etc. at batallion level. Funnily enough - rule sets for such (e.g. WRG and Challenger, Firefly and so forth) - use generic "Rifle", "SMG", "LMG", "MMG", while differentiating between say a 6 pounder ATG and a 50mm L60, just like we do. And only one "sniper rifle".. Only skirmish level platoon level or less wargame rulesets will maybe have individual different personal weapons statistics.

However, if you feel you need dozens different individually crafted sniper rifles to fit your perceptions of reality in the game, then you have the Mobhack data editor at your disposal. You can hand-craft your own OOBS to suit yourself, but remember that there are a maximum of 250 weapons in each OOB!.

As explained before - differentiating between different sniper rifles, or smgs etc for that matter, will make zero actual difference in the game, bar adding unnecessary complication in the OOBs. And also it will use up valuable weapons slots in each OOB for what is essentially the same item. We already differentiate marksmen (plain rifle), basic snipers (sniper rifle) through to more advanced ones, by using units with different Fire Control and Range Finder values as has been previously explained in this thread.

Cheers
Andy

Re: US Sniper rifle???
 

On different variants though, on different engines. With different strengths and weaknesses. Some people like WaW more, some (me included) MBT/WW2.
Judging from the history of MBT/WW2 development, both developpers are open to suggestions or critics - as long as it's not based on blanket statements and is supported by evidence. Some suggestions make it to the game engine or OOBs, some not, as it's impossible to please everyone. And if you don't like the way OOB's are set, you are provided with all you need to modify them and try out how does the change affect the "simulation".
I can tell you from personal experience that slight differences in ranges or accuracies of sniper rifles don't play much role unless you want to try to harass enemy at max range. And then usually the sniper falls prey to mortars after his few minutes of glory.

Re: US Sniper rifle???
 

Hmm. Unfortunately, you are under a misapprehension there.

Please read the Game Guide "Release History", for a more complete history of the various mods we started, before the TGN-later matrix guys developed their own game based on the SP3 game engine, which became SP:WaW.

Don is the original Steel Panthers modder, without whom there would have been no SP series code development. It all started with his "camo" icons for SP1 and SP2, that replaced the blue-grey and dark-brown icons of those games (remember them? - if not, find an SP1 screen shot).

I came in when the originator of the SP1 data editor (I forget who, after all this time) was not interested in continuing on with one for SP2, and he provided me with info on the OOB data file format. Mobhack started as a MSDOS programme written in Turbo Pascal, then I developed Kobhack for SP3.

Later, we got together to integrate new icons by poking about in the game EXE to convert the SP2 engine from modern to WW2 (since SP2 had the PBEM replay amongst other features which SP1 lacked and SSI were not going to develop SP1 further) and so SPCamo got started. It was our work that got SSI interested in releasing the actual source code, and without that, there would have been no development either by ourselves, or later, by TGN/matrix pursuing their own different route.

When we parted company from TGN, we decided to stick with the SP2 codebase. The TGN team wanted to do it their way and we, ours. Creative difference, but no real problem since there is/was room for both approaches. People produce many sets of tabletop rule sets, after all. The only "problem" with having the 2 engines is some folk who seem to insist that one should only have the one or other installed on their computer since it is the "best" in their opinion. Plenty of tabletop wargamers own and play several rulesets - yet even there there is a minority who, say stick to 7th edition ancients as the only "true" rules, like some form of quasi-religion. Those are generally called "fanboys", and are a tedious waste of time, whatever the game in question happens to be.

Cheers
Andy

Re: US Sniper rifle???
 

The best direct-fire anti-sniper bullet weapon in the game is another sniper. (Not a section with a sniper rifle in slot 4 http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif). Snipers enjoy no special advantages vs another specialist sniper, bar small size making initial hitting a tad less than a full sized section.

Next best is an MG unit class weapon, esp if firing from beyond the snipers own rifle range. MG unit classes have a few less problems with the snipers size, and if they miss, usually it is to the adjacent hex, so the splash will cause some "S" anyway (and share the joy with any neighbours he has, too! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif).

Andy

Re: US Sniper rifle???
 

True about counter-sniper-snipers and MG's. However a little mortar barrage comes in hady anytime http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

Re: US Sniper rifle???
 

http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/shock.gif WOW Don this guy really pissed you off!! I get your point.

Perhaps the main issue is that Deputy totally missed the fact that SP is indeed a game depicting miniature wargaming with virtual (and far cheaper) units and terrain and the PC runing the combat throws, arty routines and morale checks(which makes it a more practical depiction of the tabletop) just as Andy says, not a simulation.

Big fact indeed because I haven´t yet seen any simulation played in turns http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...ies/tongue.gif

Keep up the good work!
Robert

Re: US Sniper rifle???
 

Don/Andy please be aware this is meant as a joke.

Why don't RAF aircraft spot better than others as the RAF looked very hard and trained colour blind people for recon work because they weren't fooled by camouflage?

Well it make more sense than some of the things I've read from ...... and .......... .
Evan

Re: US Sniper rifle???
 

They also trained their night fighter pilots by feeding them lots of carrots, so they would see better in the dark http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif.

Cheers
Andy

Re: US Sniper rifle???
 

And found out matte white or light grey is the best colour for night fighter http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

Re: US Sniper rifle???
 

Well said and done DRG, while sometimes from an historical view these threads on technical details are interesting. I wonder just how far some people would like the details to go. Maybe we'd like to take into account whether they've eaten for 24 hours, or whether vehicle crews are conserving fuel.

This game is excellent as is especially with all programmes to affect so many changes to so many aspects of the game.

Bravo Zulu to DRG and the Team.

Re: US Sniper rifle???
 

I'd take the details as far as I possibly could. And I WILL.
And the fact remains that there WERE NO US Sinper rifles in the US inventory until the 1903A4 showed up. And the 1903A4 was ordered into production by Remington by Production Order S-1066 on 18 January 1943. Anyone who knows anything about manufacturing will know that the rifle didn't magically appear in rifleman's hands on 19 January 1943.
The first rifles completed were delivered in February 1943.
The US HAD NO sniper training program as some other countried (notably Germany) had.

There's a fascinating discussion of snipers at this location:
http://www.1944game.com/forum/showthread.php?t=2285

Dep...doesn't play "games".

Re: US Sniper rifle???
 

For example Czechoslovakian independent battalion in Africa didn't have sniper programme but did have capable marksmen. Likewise it didn't have artillery training but was able to crew and use captured Italian 100mm howitzers to great effect.
It was proven US armed forces DID use scoped bolt action rifles in WW1 and that they did use scoped bolt action rifles before M1903A4.
By the way, USMC sniper school was founded in 1942. What did they shoot if the US had no sniper rifles prior to 1903A4 as you insist? And Russians you seem to use so much as muster also have any official sniper schools organised centrally. Some units organised them privately and there was kinda sniper manual, but generally most of Soviet snipers were just marksmen if you insist, hardly better than US/USMC marksmen attached to squads. Many of them professional hunters - I seem to recall those of US also often had pretty good hunting background http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif Heck, most of the famed snipers of WWII DIDN't have any sniper school and just figured it themselves. The same goes for Japanese or Brits.
The only centralised, say official sniper schools were established by Germans and USMC. This didn't prevent "not-sniper-schoold" units to utilise scoped rifle assigned to them. And the sniping back then also wasn't usually hitting enemy at extreme ranges, but harrassing at extreme range and hitting accurately crucial enemies at combat range. It definitely didn't prvent our troops on both Western and Eastern front from employing effectively sniper rifles and selected shooters, for example sniper (or marksman, if you like) was accompanying recon patrols as a rule.
So... You have two options here. Disband snipers for anyone except Germans (yes, the Germans had legions of snipers, nobody else did) or you can rationalise that the high end sniper units just represent some really gifted shooter. The same way you have to rationalise that mortar crew can hardly hump their weapon plus 50 81mm mines, but those mines get distributed among "their" company and dumped once the mortar position is established.

As far as the game goes, I'm afraid you'll find that the high-end snipers are of little use except scenarios. Their cost is prohibitive compared to their effect.
Btw weird you don't complaint about say Brandenburgers who occupy a good space in German OOB or about the cost of Tigers or Panthers or abut unrealistically strong (number-wise) German opponent. Or Maus and Sturmtiger and all kinds of small-series stuff. All of these should be much more troubling to you as they influence game on basic settings much more than a question whether that US grunt with good shooting skills is carrying M1903A1 with Unertl scope or M1903A4 with its assigned scope.
Anyway, if you don't like US snipers, there is simple solution. Don't use them. When playing PBEM, get an agreement from your opponent that he won't buy them (he won't anyway most likely but what the...). If you think AI would ruin you by buying them, use MOBHack to set their radio code to x3 so that the AI doesn't buy them. Or if you really can't stand their existence in OOB, delete them using the same MOBHack and use your OOB set when playing PBEM.

And as far as game goes, you might notice that you're actually the only one who finds snipers to be such a crucial problem, over as long as I can remember (and I do play - and privately mod and mutilate - SPMBT and SPWW2 since SPMBT came, that's quite plenty of years already). Ad there were people *****ing about all sorts of even miniscule stuff re. reality. So it apparently for most people isn'tthat a big issue.

EDIT: And for not plying "games", what's that with you and WaW? Or that isn't a game? What it is, then?

Re: US Sniper rifle???
 

There's a distinct difference between untrained "Marksman"
(you can put Sgt. York of WW2 fame in that catagory) and trained snipers. That's WHY the German snipers were so effective. I get my 1903 information mainly from two books...."The Model 1903 Springfield Rifle and it's Variations" by Joe Poyer, and "The Springfield 1903 Rifles" by Lt. Col. William S. Brophy. Both books and authors are recognized among 1903 colletors and shooters (BTW...I fired my 1903 Remington today...great fun!!!) as being excellent authorities on the history, production, and distribution of the 1903 rifle. The rifles used in WW1 were all decommissioned or sold off by the time WW2 came around. THERE WERE NO scoped sniper rifles in the US inventory at the start of WW2. Heck, there weren't enough STANDARD 1903 or M1 rifles at the start of the war. That's WHY compaines like Smith Corona (a famous US typewriter company) were contracted to produce 1903A3 Springfields. People seem to think that the sniper rifles the US used 20 years prior were kept in the US inventory. They weren't. ALL sniper rifle development CEASED in the US after WW1. That's a shame, as the scopes they had toewards the end of the wear were far superior to the crap the put on the 1903A4 or M1C rifle. But then, WW1 was supposed to be the "war that ends all wars". So why keep all those horrible weapons anyway? Ever see pictures of US troops training prior to WW2? They used WOODEN rifles and PLYWOOD tanks. Ever wonder WHY???? Because they DIDN'T HAVE REAL ONES to spare for training!!!!!

I tried adjusting the OOB for US snipers from a starting date of 1930 to Feb, 1943. Tried to do it over and over again, but every time I went back in it was back to 1930. No idea why it won't accept the change.

SP:WAW, WinSPWW2, and WinSPMBT are SIMULATIONS. Games = DOOM, Call of Duty and all the crap that is made for Nintendo and Playstation.

Dep

Re: US Sniper rifle???
 

Simulate: 1 to reproduce the conditions of (a situation) for study or testing: 2: to pretent to have or feel; 3: to imitate the form or condition of.. ///

From the Oxford English dictionary.

DEPUTY get a perspective on things; it's a game; any hex based turn based wargame is that; a game. A Simulation would require realtime activity; and a whole raft of factors that just aren't possible on a PC.

Why would you want a battle simulation after you've been in the real thing anyway??

Evan

Re: US Sniper rifle???
 

If you've never been in a war, it's impossible to explain.
Ever see the movie "Apoclypse Now"? There's a line Martin Sheen says..."When I was here (at home), I wanted to be there; when I was there, all I could think of was getting back into the jungle."
War brings out the best (and worst) in man. Plus it's the "ultimate high" you can get without taking drugs. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Anyway, I found a more acceptable definition of simulation...
A simulation is an imitation of some real thing, state of affairs, or process. The act of simulating something generally entails representing certain key characteristics or behaviours of a selected physical or abstract system.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Simulation

Given the choice, I'll take that definition of simulation and leave the games to children.

Dep

Re: US Sniper rifle???
 

Nope, they are wargames.

Now, I have worked on computer-based train drivers simulators - for the London Underground (Northern Line I think it was), Hong Kong Lantau line etc. These happen to have a real drivers cab, with circuit breakers that can be removed and so on, with a CGI view of the track. They ran in real-time, and have a physics model behind them, for brake dynamics and so forth. The trainers can script or inject real mishaps, and score the driver on the responses.

I have run a section and a platoon in the field in the TA, and have been attached to Co HQ as an officer cadet to learn the ropes. This game has nothing to do with the real-world activity of running any sort of military formation, unlike the train driver simulator, which is used to train real drivers in their real-world tasks. Like real flight simulators are used to teach piloting procedures, or the "pro" version of Steel beasts is used by some militaries.

The various real-time squad level games are still simply that - they do not teach any sort of useful procedures, and are really only an exercise in "buttonology". A game of paintball will teach you more real fieldcraft than any "squad level" press-F8 to throw the grenade stuff.

Civilian wargames have a role in teaching interested civilians something about tactics in general. They are used as such by some militaries, to teach the general concept of tactics in say officer training schools. But real military-grade simulations will concentrate on what is to the casual civilian "boring" stuff, like proper voice radio procedures, formulation of orders to that militaries standards, and so on. These military simulations can be done with telephones and radios in barracks, or out in the field as exercises, with or without real troops.

Cheers
Andy

Re: US Sniper rifle???
 

Just to veer off for a second...but why can't I change the start date for US snipers in the OOB editor? It stays at 1-30 no matter if I hit F12 or save with the checkmark. When I change it and it LOOKS like it was changed successfully, I go back in and it's back to 1-30 http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/frown.gif
I was trying to change it to Feb 1943.

Re: US Sniper rifle???
 

You have apparently saved the current record's changes to the copy of the OOB currently held in RAM memory.

Did you also remember to save your edited OOB to disk, using the save button on the load/save tab, or File/Save Current file menu item?.

Edits made to the local RAM copy will not be finalised until you overwrite the actual OOB file on disk.

Andy

Re: US Sniper rifle???
 

Deputy: Please take note of the definition of "Military Simulation" contained pagedwn the very same source you are invoking, I quote:



"Military simulations:also known informally as war games , are models in which theories of warfare can be tested and refined without the need for actual hostilities. They exist in many different forms, with varying degrees of realism . In recent times, their scope has widened to include not only military but also political and social factors.[7] Whilst many governments make use of simulation, both individually and collaboratively, little is known about the model's specifics outside professional circles."



So the problem is not in the definition but in the degree of realism you´re looking for in a "war-game" (not only children but even profesional armies refer to them as such) you don´t have to play it if you don´t like it.

IMHO the difference between those terms resides in the level of realism they are known for, thus short answer is: SP is a "war-game" with the level of realism (simulation) you might get out of a BnLv miniature tabletop game and indirectly depicts the real deal, if you´re looking for a "simulation" which is nothing more than indeed a "war-game" with a higher effort into realism try SB like Andy said, I understand that´s the one the US Military actually uses for training purposes, you can even play that game with an optional replica of the M1A2 and Leo controllers, that´s a simulation "War-game" to me, because it remains a wg.

SP could never be considered from the pile of "simulations" simply because of it´s "war-game" level of realism, I´m talking about the fact that it plays in turns and that you can´t move 2 units at the same time, I see no point in demanding scroupulos realism in a game like this

Even with all the sniper rifles tuned up to te point you recomend the game wouldn´t become a "simulation", simply because it couldn´t be one given it´s gamey limitations. Love it or Leave it.

Just my $0.02
Robert

Re: US Sniper rifle???
 

F12/check only commits your changes to the OOB in memory, you have to save the OOB in memory to disk for the change to stick. Note that you must commit all changes on one weapon, unit or formation page before moving to another or all changes on that page will be lost.

The process:
Open the OOB
Find your sniper
Change to 2 43
Commit changes F12 or Checkmark
Click Load/Save tab
Click Save to overwrite the existing OOB on disk or Save As to put into the custom folder. I would suggest you put any changed OOBs into a custom folder so you don't break PBEM compatibility. You can restore OOBs using the OOB management tool.
Click Exit
Re-open Mobhack, check the dates and you should be good.

Re: US Sniper rifle???
 

Hey Deputy, since your so smart, what kind of sniper rifle is my avatar holding and who do you think it's aimed at? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...es/biggrin.gif From the sound of it you are kinda like the pimple on the *** of winSP. You just won' go away. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...ies/tongue.gif

Re: US Sniper rifle???
 

Every commercial "simulation" is just a game. Even if you take a look at the very complex Il-2 Shurmovik series, which do stand on a firm basis of huge physical model and try to get as real as possible, it's still a game. Bombers still have Magic Otto rear gunners, and you can do all sorts of "unreal" things and maneuvers just because you know that you risk nothing but score (aonother slash at the reality). You can set MG convergence to any value you like, whereas in reality there were limits imposed by construction. Most of all, since it's a game, you seldom experience say smashing numerical superiority of the enemy while playing Germans. If your mission is to intercept bombers, most of times you'll get four bombers with four-craft escorts. Yet, it is a Simulation Game, often shortend to just Simulation. And very good at that simulating part.

And just a few final words to the sniper issue...
1) What was modus operandi of that real schooled snipers? Build a nest carefully, then wait for three days until the correct targets presents itself, then one shot and get out of there? You might notice this is not the thing Sniper units in SPWW2 do. Snipers in SPWW2 serve in direct support of other tactical units, in an intense firefight and the likes. Today, ths function is called "Marksman", back then, there was no such distinction (anway, such distinction exist only on the West, after all Dragunov SVD is by its function and distribution due to today's terminology marksman rifle intended for platoon's marksmen, but the"S" stands for "Snaiperskaya"). Most of times warning cry "Sniper" arose, the enemy was just sitting somewhere with his ordinary Mauser even without optical scope and firing at relatively close range, just accurately and unexpectedly.

2) I repeat, what did USMC Sniper School use in 1942 if there were no Sniper sifles? Mounting the scope isn't THAT hard. Russians used PTRD and PTRS anti-tank rifles withs scopes, USMC sniper in Vietnam did use scoped M2HB. Hunters all over the world used scopes mounted on various rifles, and in the US the hunter culture was quite strong (and still is), did all of the hunters becoming soldiers suddenly forget how to mount a scope and how to use it? In USSR they didn't so I find it hard to believe they did in US.
The largest problem Russians had with creating sniper variant of Mosin was shape of charging handle, it had to be changed from straight to bent in order not to interfere with the scope - Kar98k, SMLE and M1903 all had charging handles bent downward from the get go. After all that's reason scoped SVT-40 was used so much in the Red Army, it was able to mount scope unhindered compared to stadard Mosin. The argument that "US had lack of rifles, therefore there can be no snipers" is misguiding, Germans and Russians both also had lack of rifles - that's why Germans had to issue trophy weapons to whole formations and why Russians (esp. in the beginning) sent to combat units where unarmed soldiers were expected to get weapon from fallen comrades. But it didn't stop them from having snipers(called so, mostly acting as marksmen - just like Sniper units in SPWW2). Just as the Russians weren't stopped by fact that sniper Mosin variant began production in 1941. And as Brit-weapons-armed units weren't stopped by the fact special sniper variant of SMLE appeared just during the war.

So... I don't view the absence/presence of unit called "Sniper" and performing marksman's duties in US OOB as such a dire insult to reality. Definitely not compared to say Maus.


Btw. Mauser Kar98k sniper variant was produced since 1941, I guess Germany shouldn't have snipers prior this date as well... Unless it was, as in every other army, so that the use of scoped rifles and calls for making one that would be specialised for scope mounting was widespread enough to get noticed by high command and procurement.You need snipers first to get demands for sniper rifles.

Re: US Sniper rifle???
 

Yes, they are being a bit thin-skinned, but you are asking for it by making somewhat flamboyant remarks when finding what you think are problems. You need to state things with less flare to it; more on the "you might want to check this out" line of thinking.

As far as SPWAW goes, don't even get me started. I used to play that game which is quite comparable, and that game of a couple of years ago, since I haven't played it since then, falls short in my view. Try this for a start, though they may not be issues for everyone. How about picking out a campaign as germany for the war, and start off with maybe a map with 80 hexes high (not too bad)? Then, the next battle is 20 hexes. Is that garbage or what? It used to not be that way. Then, to make matters worse, some idiot decided to complain, I suppose, that the visibility was too great in his opinion, which of course cutting it down benefitted the allies, so they did that. Anyway, you're often fighting battles with only 10-20 hex visibility IN SUMMER!!!!! Is that garbage or what? Somebody would inevitably tell you that you could edit it (like loading every battle of the campaign everytime you started one) somehow. I tried it and it didn't work for me, but let's say it did. Why should I have to alter it practically every stinking battle for some thunderstorm in the middle of the night fanatic, when they had it not too bad in the first place? Realize I'm not complaining to them now about this, because I found something, so it's not exactly like my flamboyance in this case isn't heeding my own advice. Anyway, this game let's me do both adjustments VERY EASILY, and the game defaults temselves are done so well I don't even have to do it, as it's VERY agreeable. What else? Oh yeah, I can have EVERY battle be the exact size I want it, instead of the ridiculous 20 hex varieties I bumped into far too often in the last version of SPWAW I played.

Whatever you do, heed this advice that follows very well. One day you will probably tire of one or more of the things I mentioned here about SPWAW and then you will want relief from them by going to this game, and that's exactly what you will get there. Just remember that, because some of the details of SPWAW have your attention right now, but some of the greater control, and in some cases less control, of SPWW2 (such as the fighting during the AI turn) will start calling to you. I am actually a bit curious how SPWAW is doing these days, but I don't see the huge problem of the map and visibility issues being adjusted or corrected anytime soon. I did ask to see if they could do something about the user being able to adjust the map size, before SPWW2 even did it, it bothered me so much, but they said they didn't know how, or it couldn't be done, etc.

Re: US Sniper rifle???
 

Deputy: Keep what he just said above very well in mind. Both SP reditions have their limits. Would you rather have a Panther with a different gun, ar additional MG's, or an additional sniper unit? I will take more variations to armor any day, and both games are named for armor anyway. I would expect infantry weapons to take somethign of a back seat, but in any acse the main point is they have only so much space to make units. If somebody makes Combat Leader, which Matrix caved on, now there you might be talking the possibility of great detail more across the board, but htese old games are fairly limited.

Re: US Sniper rifle???
 

What's the difference with the srifle in slot 4? I think there is a experience or morale check that is made for it to fire, which in slot 1 wouldn't be the case, but what else? I was wondering how well that works for the 10 man, or maybe it's 12 man brandenberger unit.

Re: US Sniper rifle???
 

Haven't you ever heard of snipers in the Civil War? What makes you think the US Army would drop them inbetween that time?