Artillery plotting.
 

Hi All
There is the artillery "cheat" in the game which is;
For an unseen target hex get the FO to plot the artillery to land in 0.5 turns (the 0 can be any number). This means that in the turn following the landing of you first shells (which will in all likelyhood have landed a hex or two away from the plotted target hex) you can now adjust 'back' onto your original target hex. Because of using a .5 rather than a .0 in the bombardment screen the remaining shells will now fall directly onto the target in the next move.

Now the problem with this is that if the target in unseen, behind a hill, deep in a forest, etc there is really no real life mechanism by which you can adjust your fall of shot in this way. ie unrealistic Dont forget that in game you have a map view in reality you see from ground level and as well is not being able to see the fall of shot you also cant see the 'hex' you want to hit.

I realise that the artillery has listening devices to give some idea of the direction of other batteries, but I doubt these can give you a 50m hex. And these are used for I believe counter battery. The "cheat" of course operates for every indirect fire weapon in the game from knee mortars up and against any type of target. Also though you may see some smoke under some circumstances this will only tell you direction not distance and so isnt very helpful.

The solution as I see it would be to only allow the shift fire mission button in the bombardmant screen to be active if the weapons particular allocation of shells for that turn have been fired ie you can no longer keep shells 'hanging' in the air for a later turn by incrementing the shift fire mission button. Thus to hit the unseen hex you would have to keep replotting onto the unseen target hex until by 'chance' the shells land on the targeted hex. You still wouldnt really know that they had landed where you wanted them too but you cant have everything. This change I think would allow for genuine (in field of view) bombardments to be adjusted as required but reduce the ability of the artillery to hit targets that are in fact unseen.

Also relevant the enemies unseen artillery pieces often appear to you for some reason, this seems to be a bit of unneccessary free information. And smoke signatures that appear in unseen hexes could I think safely be removed. On a big map, most of them appear behind a hill, a long way away etc where in fact you wouldnt he able to see them. A lot of the smaller guns/mortars have such a tiny smoke signature anyway putting it on the screen is I think a bit generous.
Best Regards Chuck.

Re: Artillery plotting.
 

If I could add these comments also
The artillery "cheat" mentioned in my previous post in combination with fighter-bombers (IMHO unrealistic) ability to act as spotting planes represents a double whammy. A player can run a fighter-bomber past, locate the nearby flak take it out pretty quickly using the artillery "cheat", repeat as required, and then his air armarda can procede to dominate the game.
This gives a pretty good advantage to countries that have a lot of air, late war America for example. It also removes the focus somewhat from developing good ground combined arms operations.
Also a new PBEM player loses a lot of games before they realise that artillery can hit unseen targets so easily.
Best Regards Chuck.

Re: Artillery plotting.
 

Interesting debate Im having with myself here.
Actually something I missed earlier, when a fire mission is called in from a battery of the smaller calibre guns the shells fall over two turns anyway so their is no need to worry about the fraction of the time taken for the shells to land, the fall of shot can be adjusted exactly onto the unseen target on the next turn.
So
If anyone thought this was a problem the solution might be to let all the shells that fall over two turns fall in one turn. Or let the same amount of shells fall on one turn, have no shells fall on the second turn but increase the number of times the battery can be called to compensate. And the shift fire mission button would still need to be greyed out unless a new fire mission is being plotted.
Alternately once a fire mission is called there is no adjustment of the shift fire mission button allowed until all the shells have landed (ie the shift fire mission button is greyed out).
A creeping barrage which is what I believe the shift fire mission button is for is still possible, you just need to let all the shells for each call fall before you adjust the range. ie the the shift fire mission button is only available for "new" calls.
Best Regards Chuck.

Re: Artillery plotting.
 

Interesting debate you are having with yourself CF. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...es/biggrin.gif

I have not tried this because I generally don't use my valuable arty or CAS for recce. I try to use these resources as realistically as possible, to pound the bejesus out of areas I want to suppress to allow a safer passage for my troops. Then as choke points or high value targets come into view hit them with CAS and any handy arty missions. Now if the enemy unmasks an AAA unit when I launch an airstrike and I have arty coming down within a reasonable distance, well then that’s a different story. I especially loathe 40mm AAA.

Prosit!

Re: Artillery plotting.
 

Hi Panzer bob
Yes good point but if you turn off the planes weapons you can then use them as spotting planes and keep the ammo for when youve found something.

Another problem with the bombardment screens incrementing button is this. If you plot an artillery strike in the deploy phase and then keep moving it into the next turn (by using the shift fire mission button) untill you need it the artillery strike will always land right on target. Without the target being in view, its another method of hitting unseen targets right on the nose. You can also plan medium bomber and para drops for turn 0 and then move them into the next turn using the shift fire mission button. You then have a para drop or bomber strike at any time in the game at a moments notice. This avaoids the long wait time for these missions and so constitutes another "cheat"
So by removing or 'fixing' the shift fire mission button you catch two "cheats" The artilleries impossible ability to hit targets that arnet visible to the FO, and the circumvention of the wait time for air drops and medium bombers.

The artilleries ability to accurately hit out of sight targets that in realiy it couldnt makes artillery a much stronger arm in the mix than it really was. This probably appeals to gamey players but to reality buffs represents I think a serious distortion.
It also disadvantages the AI
Best Regards Chuck.

Re: Artillery plotting.
 

You can do lotta such "cheating" in SP engine... But you can avoid just by not using it and having an agreement with your PBEM opponent he will neither. I have so far yet to meet someone (me included) who uses air strikes in such a manner.

How many times was such technique used against you?

Re: Artillery plotting.
 

Hi Marek
What are the other cheats?
Regards Chuck

Re: Artillery plotting.
 

I try to use these resources as realistically as possible too.
Cheating(or someone taking advantage of game flaws)is a problem I have alway's run into in the past when playing PBEM or H2H games,especially on ladders. That takes any enjoyment right out of it. I haven't played any PBEM games with the SP series yet. From the sound of it I'm not sure if I ever will. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/fear.gif
An agreement with a regular PBEM opponent is the only way I ever got a "fair" game. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/skull.gif
Just my 2 cent's worth.

Re: Artillery plotting.
 

Like using cheap soft-skinned vehicles for suicidal recon-by-fire http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

EDIT: @Brummbaer, I don't PBEM for any ladders, but I didn't meet a cheater head-to-head yet. That is, if I don't consider having better tactics than me as cheating http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

Re: Artillery plotting.
 

I've played a half dozen or so PBEM and never got a cheater. Unless you have money riding on the game I wouldn't worry about the odd idiot or two - just don't play them again.

Re: Artillery plotting.
 

Hi Marek
Well its all about definition I guess, Soft Recon is possible but maybe unrealistic. Artillery hitting unseen targets is -IM- possible so by definition unrealistic. Id call soft recon a tactic not a cheat. Also a PBEM opponent will see your use of soft recon so in the next game playing field is level once more. However the artillery "cheat" can be masked by using two guns out of sync. So a PBEM opponent may never catch on and so be at a permanent disadvantage compared to those 'in the know'.
I think its by far the biggest blemish on the game and that it would be a real bonus if it were fixed.
Best Regards Chuck.

Re: Artillery plotting.
 

The problem with this cheat is that you may not know your opponent is doing it. So no agreement is possible. The artillery "cheat" also has the side effect of making "walking barrages" twice as fast as they would be normally and a lot less dangerous for those following.

Is that a trick question? As recon overflights dont appear in playback unless somebody shoots at the plane obviously its not possible to know if it has been used against me.
It would probably be best if plane weapons couldnt be turned off.
Best Regards Chuck