What Are the Drawbacks of High Misfortune?
 

I'm phobic of pretender builds that set the scales at 2 or 3 misfortune. I want to know how a high misfortune will bite me in the blubber.

Re: What Are the Drawbacks of High Misfortune?
 

The first example coming to my mind is the loss of the temple/lab in the first months... Losing one third of the population in the capitole is an other example.

I think misfortune can make the beginning of the game a real disaster, if you are unlucky ^^
On the long run, it tends to deplete your population with all those disaster, but is largely attenuated by 3 scales of order.

Re: What Are the Drawbacks of High Misfortune?
 

I've never regretted taking Order3 Misfortune2 and I've done it every game that I've not taken Turmoil3 Luck 3.

Generally it's more annoying then actually bad for you. Barbarians attack, and then you have to send some troops out to mop them up. In the 300-400 turns I've played with O3M2 I've only had like 2 temples and 2 labs destroyed. More often then not you just deal with the barbarian attacks.

Jazzepi

Re: What Are the Drawbacks of High Misfortune?
 

Mostly with order misfortune you get waves of barbarian attacks. However these can be worse than 'annoying' because they can wipe out forts under construction, wreck paths of flat territory used by units with good mapmove, etc.

If you go misfortune 3, you can never get national heroes turning up.

Re: What Are the Drawbacks of High Misfortune?
 

Random events are actually dependent on more scales then just order/turmoil and luck/misfortune. For example, having death means getting plague events which will absolutely wreck your population. I was actually just in a game where somebody had two such events in their capitol within the first 12 turns. On the flipside, growth allows the "ancient presence" event, which reduces even the most populous populations to a couple hundred people and causes an attack. Luckily its pretty rare.

I usually go Order-3, Misfortune-2, and at least Growth-1. There is no comprehensive list of random events and whats required to precurse them, though. So, I recommend you play several SP games at different setting to get a feel of the differences. I do know some events seem to be worse at different levels of misfortune, such as barbarian attacks having more barbarians.

Re: What Are the Drawbacks of High Misfortune?
 

This is very important. If you're building a fort, you should sit an army on that spot, or build enough PD to fend off 40-60 barbarians.

Jazzepi

Re: What Are the Drawbacks of High Misfortune?
 

I've noticed independent Trolls attack way more frequently with Misfortune_3.

Re: What Are the Drawbacks of High Misfortune?
 

I believe Order 3, Life 1, Misfortune 2 is safe. When I need the points,
I even play with O3L1M3. It's not the end of the world... But Misfortune
and Death scales, in combination, are a disaster.

In any case, it very much depends on what kind of PD you have. A good
PD like Pythium, Tir-Na-Nog or Arco laughs at invaders. Niefelheim,
on the other hand is savaged by barbarians until turn 30ish, when they
become training dummies for your Jarls.

Re: What Are the Drawbacks of High Misfortune?
 

Main thing I experience is my temples dropping left and right. Man that gets annoying.

Re: What Are the Drawbacks of High Misfortune?
 

What Are the Drawbacks of High Misfortune?

Annoyance mainly, will increase micromanagement because you need to have 1 or 2 mobile armies to take care of barbarian (most common), knight, vine men, troglodytes and troll(least common) attacks. Those attacks can occasionally really hurt, especially when you are at war.

Also, no heros with misfortune 3 and a remote chance with 2.

To be honest the chances of losing your lab on the 1st turn is very, very, very rare and remote. But I always buy a mage on the 1st turn just in case, as otherwise its virtually game over.

Other misfortune events like raising unrest, plagues and whatnot are not really that bad, just minor annoyances.

I usually play all my SP games with luck 3 as its far more fun but in MP to be competitive order 3 misfortune 3 is a must for alot of nations.

I am currently playing a game with scales of turmoil 1, sloth 3, heat 3, misfortune 2, drain 3 and doing fairly well. So its 'manageable'.

Re: What Are the Drawbacks of High Misfortune?
 

Not annoyance. Misfortune, even 1-2 can eliminate you from the MP game. If you survive long enough with that scales you are fine. But you take HUGE RISK. You can get some nasty events during first 10 turns and you have no chance to win the war.

Examples:
- lab/temple lost without mages/priests
- huge unrest in capitol [you can get even over 100 in one turn], takes some time and money to get rid of
- Bogus, if you are unlucky he can attack your capitol, he beats 125 strong PD
- huge hordes of barbarians - you can get a group of almost 200 barbarians attacking at once

And if you mix it with Death 3 you will probably have population 10-15k in capitol after around 10-15 turns.

Re: What Are the Drawbacks of High Misfortune?
 

All these events may happen with low misfortune and some even with luck 1 if as a player you are unlucky, so taking misfortune 2 or 3 has no real special drawback.

I like to play with luck scale because it's fun, but I don't think it's actually balanced at all.

I think the main problem of the luck scale is the cap on the number of events coupled with the fact you usually own some provinces where your scales aren't maxed. So if you play a big empire with luck 3 turmoil 3 and are conquering new lands at the fronteer of your dominion, you will often get bad events from provinces where you have only turmoil, and these events will count in the maximum of 3 events per turn in your national provinces, limiting the benefits of luck.

Re: What Are the Drawbacks of High Misfortune?
 

The drawback to misfortune is that, on average it costs you a big pile of money and gems.

- You *don't* get a number of beneficial events (trade routes, so-and-so found a pile of gems, etc), which costs you money and gems.
- If you also take Drain, you get a lot of events where you lose gems.
- If you also take Death, you get a lot of events where you lose piles of population (as has been mentioned.)
- Regardless of what you take, you get a lot of events that raise unrest - hurricanes, that star that curses people, etc. These events can cause 40 unrest or more, which is (at least for a turn) a bigger income hit that 3 levels of Order.

Most of the effects of Misfortune are not, it is true, game-breakers.

However, as an income scale, in the short turn, Fortune is a better deal than Growth.

Re: What Are the Drawbacks of High Misfortune?
 

Misfortune has its drawbacks, but its not that bad when coupled with Order. I take Misf 2-3 in every MP game. Its a gamble for the first couple of turns, until you capture 1 or 2 provinces, because you could get slammed in your cap. But once you get those provs the chance of a bad event in your cap drops drastically - and the truth is that bad events in the majority of your empire really dont effect gold output that much. They are only a problem if they happen in capitals and awesome farmland provs.

So, on the whole, unless you have a strong reason to take luck, I think that Order + Misf is always the way to go.

Re: What Are the Drawbacks of High Misfortune?
 

You are lucky if you are not severely punished for taking Misfortune.

Re: What Are the Drawbacks of High Misfortune?
 

Zeldor. You have just been struck with extremely bad luck. Most of the time you can take misfortune 3, and not receive anything that unlucky.

Re: What Are the Drawbacks of High Misfortune?
 

I am playing an MP game with high luck and a lucky pretender. I receive gems, magic items and gold almost every turn, not to mention heroes begging to serve in my army. The downside is I get dregs of lame militia / arrow cushions who show up as well.

An interesting thought is that all these bonus events from high luck, such as merchants and tax surpluses, might generate more gold than the +x% you get from high order combined with misfortune. I haven't thought this out but just thinking that most provinces have pretty low income to start with, and then when you add on lost income from barbarian invasions and time to recapture, plus negative event income drains, High order may not be as lucrative as high luck.

Plus it is less aggravating and generates significant gem income as well.

Re: What Are the Drawbacks of High Misfortune?
 

A player ran some tests on this and basically the upshot is Order 3 Misfortune 3 results in more gold income for the first 30 - 40 turns.

Then turmoil 3 luck 3 equals and overtakes it, giving you more gold overall.

However, the first 30 turns of a game is the 'crucial' part of the game usually as it sets you up how you are going to do throughout the entire game.

This is why order 3 misfortune 3 is often viewed as the best option.

The scale you after really avoid taking (other then LA Ermor) is death 3. Death 3 is just eventual suicide in anything other than a blitz, very small game.

Re: What Are the Drawbacks of High Misfortune?
 

Anyone have a link to the thread?

Re: What Are the Drawbacks of High Misfortune?
 

Interesting...I wonder how the tests were done and how you account for magic items, gems, heroes, no lab/temple burning risk, etc.

First part of the game is definitely critical but in my limited experience I have found I am often constrained by resources in the beginning of the game whereas later in the game it is $$$ I need.

Re: What Are the Drawbacks of High Misfortune?
 

I'd think that Luck is weaker in the very early game, then goes drastically up as you get more provinces, and once you start getting the maximum amount of events (3 or 4) every turn the income bonus stays static.

I did some tests for DomII. I don't think I repeated them for Dom3.

Re: What Are the Drawbacks of High Misfortune?
 

Here is a link:-

http://www.shrapnelcommunity.com/thr...art=2&vc=1

I am sure there was a more in depth thread somewhere but I can't find it!

Re: What Are the Drawbacks of High Misfortune?
 

I refuse to take even 1 misfortune or 1 death. And I have fairly decent success in mp games.

In Alpaca when i needed negative scales for a double 9 bless i took 2 drain and 3 sloth. I prefer to get my worthy heroes,
and i prefer to not deal with bad events in the crucial expansion phase.

Things like sloth, cold, and drain can be planned for. Sloth does limit the types of troops you can build, so you take conjuration and summon troops. Drain means you need research boosters. I traded for several research boosters in Alpaca.

But I am someone that likes to plan things out. Others may welcome the unpredictable as the "spice."

Re: What Are the Drawbacks of High Misfortune?
 

Suuuuuuuure. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

That thread does compare Order3 & Luck3 more than once, but never Order3/Misfortune3 & Luck3/Turmoil3.

I've always liked Order. I wonder how Misfortune1, 2 & 3 compares or if there is a sweet spot in Luck1, 2 or 3 (similiar to Drain2).

Re: What Are the Drawbacks of High Misfortune?
 

I always buy a priest first. There seem to be a lot more mercenary mages available than mercenary priests, and I've never used a pretender with no magic paths.

Re: What Are the Drawbacks of High Misfortune?
 

You can always get a propet, though.

Re: What Are the Drawbacks of High Misfortune?
 

My favorite part about misfortune is when you've besieged a fort and you get the lab/temple destroyed event, but it destroys your opponent's building.

Re: What Are the Drawbacks of High Misfortune?
 

Hmm, that's a good point. But I prefer to recruit the highest level priest I have available, then boost him further as my prophet.

Re: What Are the Drawbacks of High Misfortune?
 

That's a good point. Only works if you can recruit H3 priests, of course.

Re: What Are the Drawbacks of High Misfortune?
 

Huh? Other than H3->4 getting you Divine Blessing, I don't see why it "only works" at that level.

Re: What Are the Drawbacks of High Misfortune?
 

Because turning a commander into a prophet who has H0-H2 raises him to H3. Turning a commander who is H3 into a prophet gives him H4, and the ever elusive fanaticism which is quite good in large battles.

Basically there's no reason to convert a H1-H2 priest into a prophet when you could just do it with a commander, or a scout, or some one else.

Jazzepi

Re: What Are the Drawbacks of High Misfortune?
 

Yeah. As Ulm, for example, I could make either my starting commander (shield, armor) or my starting spy (good stealth) into my prophet. A priest-prophet is just worse than either.

Re: What Are the Drawbacks of High Misfortune?
 

EDIT: Whoops, didn't notice the question was already answered (I failed to notice the existence of a third page :S)
So, you can just ignore what I already wrote earlier, which is:

Because "boosting him further as my prophet" is only a real boost if it is from H3 to H4. Since any prophet gets H3 anyway, it is completely pointless to make an H2 priest into a prophet, you might as well boost a mage or a good commander all the way to H3 by making him into a prophet.

Re: What Are the Drawbacks of High Misfortune?
 

OK, that makes sense. I never really looked that closely at it, and I'd assumed that making someone a prophet just increased H by 1.

I've only been playing the demo so far, and just ordered the full game yesterday. Once I have the manual to look at, I should know these things. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Re: What Are the Drawbacks of High Misfortune?
 

It happens, capnq.

As for Endo's comment, I've actually seen the Ulmish Commanders knock themselves out if prophetized, simply due to the very high Spellcasting encumbrance of his gear. Otoh, he's very durable, and his only real job is to cast Sermon of Courage.

So it goes...

Wyatt

Re: What Are the Drawbacks of High Misfortune?
 

Problem is that NOTHING is very durable at 100 fatigue. =)

Re: What Are the Drawbacks of High Misfortune?
 

Drawbacks of high misfortune:
You never can take turmoil
You very rarely can take death
You get no (or very few) national heroes
It costs you gold/gems/population both directly and as a hidden cost (the positive events you never get)
It costs you labs/temples/castles, both directly and as a hidden cost
You regularly get attacked by indies
It can cripple you in the first few turns if you're unlucky
It increases your micro

Outside of (obviously) reversing the above, benefits of luck:
Increases your magic diversity, through random gem events and random mages joining you (your national heroes can often help with this as well)
Lumpy income can make it easier to fund larger projects (ie you just got a large gold event so can afford that castle you were having trouble saving for)
Possibility of getting items/boosters you can't forge
A significant portion of your income can't be hit by spies, pillaging, or unrest causing rituals. True, there are some spells which raise misfortune, but to significantly impact your overall income they'd have to hit a significant portion of your kingdom rather than a handful of your best provinces.


One choice that I think is overlooked by the "gold is king, I only take Order/Misfortune" crowd is Order/Luck. True, the synergy is against you, but as your nation grows you start hitting that 3 event limit anyway and have the best gold income possible. I haven't dug into it, but I'm assuming some really good events are tied to order/luck scales. I find order/luck/death to be a very competitive setup...

Re: What Are the Drawbacks of High Misfortune?
 

Thats a really interesting scale combination, baalz. Wouldnt have thought to use that - might give it a shot in my next game. How do you keep all your mages from dying?

In the past I've always used Order/Misfortune. Really you are only in danger for like the first 2-3 turns of the game and after that it pays off very well. And you get attacked by Bogus often which is, outside of the early game, a positive event since it nets you a lot of equipment.

Turmoil/Luck is nice in the early game when a big gold boost can almost double your economic power in a turn. But once your hit the event per turn limit, your bonus becomes static. This is a very serious flaw when playing in medium/large games because nations who took Order will have a strong relative advantage over you since thier income scales faster as thier empires grow!

Re: What Are the Drawbacks of High Misfortune?
 

Ironhawk:

You can get attacked by Bogus even in Luck 2-3 http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Re: What Are the Drawbacks of High Misfortune?
 

To be sure, I don't always take those scales, I very seldom take death scales when old age is an issue. For many nations though it's not.

Order is nice, to be sure, I don't think anyone will argue that. I do think it's a bit misleading though to just look at the gold value and say luck's advantage is static. Whats the value of getting a necromancer who starts casting dark knowledge? Without trying to pick a value that's arguably an exponential advantage as your death income grows over time. What's the value of losing the lab at your capital? I'm not talking about during the first few turns, I'm talking about at the point you've got a bunch of researchers and rituals being cast - again this value grows over time even assuming you didn't miss out on critical support for your military. How valuable is it to be able to prime the pump on site searching spells without having to alchemize - potentially from non-astral gems? What's the value of a national hero?

Luck is definitely *not* the most efficient way to gain gold, but gold alone does not win a game.

Re: What Are the Drawbacks of High Misfortune?
 

Thought it is probably considered by the game to be a bad event, thus being much more rare in a luck 2-3 enviroment than under misfortune of a similar level.

Re: What Are the Drawbacks of High Misfortune?
 

Although events are less common overall if you take order misfortune, so perhaps bogus is less common.

Re: What Are the Drawbacks of High Misfortune?
 

In Alpaca, i took 3 order and luck and it worked out well. Also in a 4 player game i did the same. Both games turned out with good results.

In both games i got heroes early and often, and got many gem producing events. Not so many great items though.

Re: What Are the Drawbacks of High Misfortune?
 

Bogus can be considered a good event only if you've got nothing else to do. When I get this event I'm often waging a defensive war against 1+ AIs, and you really can't deal with him with a secondary army.

I often take misfortune now, so as to pay for my growth as I play factions that are crippled by old age. (Ah fire magic...)It is true it is a real pain to have your lab/temple wipped out early on. Barbarian attacks on the capitol have never been a threat for me(they get trashed by 25+ PD), but I never play the monkeys and their (censored so as not to cause a riot) PD.

I think misf/order is a better bet than turmoil/luck, even if the best is to have all positive scales, which is possible if you don't need a strong bless.

Re: What Are the Drawbacks of High Misfortune?
 

I started an order 3 luck 3 game recently and another thing that really hurts these scales is slow dominion spread. For instance, let's say you defeat an order 3 misfortune 2 player. You had 10 provinces and you took 5 more for a total of 15. The problem is that 33% of your territory has misfortune rather than luck, so when you get a random event there it still ends up being a bad one. I get a lot of barbarian events in newly conquered territory before I get a chance to convert the scales. Since you're limited to 3 events/turn, you really have to try to flip the scales quickly if you want to max out your positive events.

At least this is how it seems to me. Can anyone confirm that the game randomly chooses the province first, then the event based on the scales in that province? I think luck would be significantly better if random events were weighted towards lucky provinces first.

Re: What Are the Drawbacks of High Misfortune?
 

I believe that at least in Dom2 it was thought that event frequency was based on Capital dominion score, but event kind into each province's dominion score. Don't know for sure, but at least I remember that while I liked playing turmoil/luck nations (TC Spring&Autumn <3), conquering order/misfortune nations was truly horror thanks to the bad events...

Re: What Are the Drawbacks of High Misfortune?
 

Well, the same is true for any positive dominion. If 50% of your nation is out of your dominion, 50% isn't benefiting from your order scales and 50% of the random events will not benefit from your luck scales. The three event cap doesn't really impact this.

One non-obvious benefit of a luck scale is when your dominion pushes into somebody else's territory unlike other scales they don't merely not get the advantage of your good scales, they actually have a functionally negative luck scale for that province of whatever your positive scale is. I think the logic is good luck for player A is bad luck for player B.

Re: What Are the Drawbacks of High Misfortune?
 

I didn't know that ... does the reverse hold ?

Re: What Are the Drawbacks of High Misfortune?
 

I always thought your positive scales are ignored for enemies, e.g. Order 3/Misfortune 2 is Order 0/Misfortune 2. The manuals I checked (Dom:PPP and Dom3) didn't give any answers.

Re: What Are the Drawbacks of High Misfortune?
 

I've thought of a reason http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif, but it's a very small benefit.

If the priest has several other paths, and you're planning to search for magic sites with him anyway, he'll be able to find more of those elusive H sites. A commander or scout with only H3 probably has more useful things to do than searching.