150mm KwK 44 L/38 and 170mm KwK 44 L/71
 

I'm playing around with some "what-if" scenarios and I'm wondering if someone have an educated guess of how much the AP and HEAT rounds for the 150mm KwK 44 and the 170mm KwK 44 could penetrate in game-terms ?

Re: 150mm KwK 44 L/38 and 170mm KwK 44 L/71
 

I would move this to the correct sub-forum, but there is a problem with the moderator function at the moment.

Please refer to the description of the sub-forums, that for the TO&E reads
Cheers
Andy

Re: 150mm KwK 44 L/38 and 170mm KwK 44 L/71
 

Oh I'm sorry, forgive my ignorance. Well, so nobody has an educated guess on this matter ? Are there any modern 150mm or 170mm tank guns that could be used as guidance ?

Re: 150mm KwK 44 L/38 and 170mm KwK 44 L/71
 

I have some guesses for you, but I'm at work and all my X Force stuff is at home. I'll post what I have come up with. I've "developed" a 10 cm KwK, 10.5 cm KwK for example plus a 105mm for the Allies.

Stay tuned, Out

Re: 150mm KwK 44 L/38 and 170mm KwK 44 L/71
 

AFAIR WWII HEAT penetration was around 100-300% of warhead diameter.

Re: 150mm KwK 44 L/38 and 170mm KwK 44 L/71
 

Have my guesstimate only for 15cm SprGr.TS (APDS shell):

Mass (projectile + sabot): 15.7 kg
Mass (projectile): 11 kg (est.)
Velocity: 834 mps

Penetration 18 cm @ 0 hex.
Range 95 hexes

For HEAT, AFAIK German 15cm HEAT got some 21cm penetration.

Re: 150mm KwK 44 L/38 and 170mm KwK 44 L/71
 

Here is a table on the stuff I've created. i atttached a Wp file of the table. Easier to read.[img]/threads/images/Graemlins/Bullets.gif[/img]

German WC ACC WS WH HEPEN HEK APPEN SBPEN SBRD HTPEN WPNRD

10cm KwK45 6 36 12 6 3 15 29 42 110 18 110

10.5cm Krupp 65 7 40 12 6 3 20 34 46 110 18 150

Allied

105mm RO L-2 7 34 12 6 3 15 32 48 110 11 130

Re: 150mm KwK 44 L/38 and 170mm KwK 44 L/71
 

Alright thanks for the info. I've done some calculations myself which seems to be pretty authentic, however I cannot be sure since the 170mm KwK 44 was never built (and I don't have a clue if it was supposed to be L/71).

However, let's pretend that the Germans actually built a 170mm KwK 44 L/71 tank cannon. This is how it probably would look (in game-terms):
(and this is the version I'm using)
170mm KwK 44 L/71
Weapon Class: 7
Accuracy: 17
Weapon Size: 12 (maybe 13 would be better)
Warhead Size: 9
HE Pen: 4
HE Kill: 25
AP Pen: 31
AP Kill: 0
Sabot Pen: 41 (If the Germans got hold of more resources)
Sabot Range: 90 (Kinda guessed this one)
HEAT Pen: 36
Weapon Range: 140

The 150mm KwK 44 L/38 was actually already ingame!

A German 100mm KwK 45 L/60 would look something like this:

100mm KwK 45 L/60
Weapon Class: 6
Accuracy: 13
Weapon Size: 5
Warhead Size: 5
HE Pen: 3
HE Kill: 11
AP Pen: 16 (Less than the Soviet 100mm cause this one is has shorter barrel)
AP Kill: 0
Sabot Pen: 18 (If the Germans got hold of more resources)
Sabot Range: 70
HEAT Pen: 25 - 26 (Somewhere around those)
Weapon Range: 70

These are by no means any official data, but they are based on calculations of bore size, barrel length etc.

Re: 150mm KwK 44 L/38 and 170mm KwK 44 L/71
 

Huh, just now noticed the lenght of 17cm gun - the barrel would have to be over 12 meters long, and I doubt it can be used in anything smaller than Ratte http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

For sabot on the new guns, you may try giving them APDS ammo, ie longer sabot ranges - Germans had some experience with APDS for long-range artillery and due to tungsten shortage tried to go that way also for AP projectiles, namely there was some 7.5cm design by the end of the war.

Re: 150mm KwK 44 L/38 and 170mm KwK 44 L/71
 

Alright, never thought about that http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...es/biggrin.gif
Remember that this gun was supposed to be used with the E-100 chassis (almost like the Maus, or closer to a bigger Tiger II chassis). There are no sources about the 170mm KwK 44 except the name itself. Any ideas of barrel length ?

Re: 150mm KwK 44 L/38 and 170mm KwK 44 L/71
 

Another thing to keep in mind with these kind of exercises is this is in the realm of Alternate History or Fantasy if you will. So in order for these beasties to arise, other things would be happening as well. Just in gun technology alone there would advances in metalurgy, ammuntion, optics and stabalization. Put in this context some of these Nazi Nightmares one could suppose might have come to life.

As for the monster guns 12.8cm and above, the thing I find most impracticial is having to load separate warhead and charge loads. For a Battle Tank single round makes more sense in terms of speed of loading, storage within the vehicle and safety. This is why I chose to only create 10cm & 10.5cm Guns.

Re: 150mm KwK 44 L/38 and 170mm KwK 44 L/71
 

170mm gun looking a bit like this perhaps..

http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/l...07-slant-s.jpg

Re: 150mm KwK 44 L/38 and 170mm KwK 44 L/71
 

Weapon size for that one (175mm) is 12.

Re: 150mm KwK 44 L/38 and 170mm KwK 44 L/71
 

In my attempts at creating a workable post 40s German Army I too came across the concept of the 170/175mm gun. As far as I remember it was meant to be mounted on tank destroyers. The Krokodil (PzJaeger variant of the E-100).

The base values for the gun are as follows:

Weap. 170mm KWK 44.
WC: 7
ACC: 17
WS: 12
HE Pen.: 4
HE K.: 25
AP Pen.: 35
AP K.: 0
Sab. Pen.: 0}
Sab. Rng.: 0}
HEAT Pen.: 0}
Wpn. Rng.: 140

As my timeline is a little longer I thought it unnecessary to alot any Sabot or Heat rounds to the weapon. These figures are what I call the "base figures" as they remain constant (with perhaps some tinkering with the range of the weapon) throughout. The only significant changes occuring to the Sabot and HEAT capabilities of the weapon. Armour Piercing being phased out of course.

Now the question is what does one do if they want to project these weapons into the 60s, 70s, 80s and 90s?

Re: 150mm KwK 44 L/38 and 170mm KwK 44 L/71
 

If anyone needs any data on projected 110mm, 128mm and 150mm guns, I have that too.