Can a Mage be Both Communion Slave *and* Master?
 

I have 8+ mages, each of whom cast both Communion Master and Communion Slave. In such a situation, will I then have 8+ mages each benefiting from Communion Master? I should think so, but I tried that using grand thaumaturges and only one of the group cast spells every round.

Re: Can a Mage be Both Communion Slave *and* Master?
 

Don't believe so, no.

Re: Can a Mage be Both Communion Slave *and* Master?
 

Only one of the group casts spells every round - that is normal. When any master in a communion casts a spell, other masters are not affected but no slaves may cast spells in that turn. If all mages are both slaves and masters, only the first will be able to cast, then the rest will be stopped by the slaves inability to cast after a master.
I can't remember if slaves can cast before a master(slaves scripted to be first in the casting order) but I have a feeling that they can't.

Re: Can a Mage be Both Communion Slave *and* Maste
 

If your combat order looks like this

SLAVE A
SLAVE B
MASTER C
SLAVE D

Then slave A/B will be able to freely cast spells each round. Master C will then cast a spell. And slave D will sit around soaking up fatigue and looking stupid.

Jazzepi

Re: Can a Mage be Both Communion Slave *and* Maste
 

What happens if slave A is also a master?

Re: Can a Mage be Both Communion Slave *and* Maste
 

How do you set up a combat order? I mean I always thought that the order different mages cast spells in is random, is there a way to customize it?

Re: Can a Mage be Both Communion Slave *and* Maste
 

The order that your commanders (mages) act is determined by a hidden number called their Unit ID. This is a unique number that each unit has to keep track of them in the game. Apparently they're also recycled after a unit dies.

What's more important is that you can not see this ID number, so the only way to tell which units will act first in combat is to have all those units in a single province, go to army setup, and look at the order in which they appear. This is the order they will act during a battle.

The problem with this is that if you have two armies that you want to merge in a large fight, both with communion masters/slaves in them, it's impossible to tell which order they'll act in. In that case, you can not rely on your communion slaves for combat casting as the order that they act in is unpredictable.

Jazzepi

Re: Can a Mage be Both Communion Slave *and* Maste
 

If A is a master then B/D will be unable to cast spells, but C will be just fine. Masters never interfere with each other.

Jazzepi

Re: Can a Mage be Both Communion Slave *and* Maste
 

What if you set A and B to hold for one turn, then cast slave?

Will they still cast spells each round because they are before the master, or not?

Re: Can a Mage be Both Communion Slave *and* Maste
 

AFAIK the only thing that matters is not /when/ a particular unit becomes a master or a slave, only that ~in a given turn~ if a slave comes before a master in turn order, he will be able to cast.

So I'm 99% certain that a slave that becomes a slave from a matrix before the battle, or one becoming a slave on turn one, or on turn 20, will all be the same way. The next turn after they become a slave, and every turn after that, all that matters is that they come before whatever communion masters you might have.

Jazzepi

Re: Can a Mage be Both Communion Slave *and* Maste
 

That's pretty annoying.

I never really used communions much and stuff like that isn't encouraging me to.

Re: Can a Mage be Both Communion Slave *and* Maste
 

It's not all bad ... it's sometimes possible to micro your casters so that depending on what you are doing, you can have the slaves just soak up fatigue, by having slaves last intentionally (Sauromatia Enarie communion for eternal skelly spam); or contribute to a communion for a boost, but also participate, by having slaves first intentionally (S2 Communion for an Antimagic and some Soul Slays, with the slaves casting Mind Burn or Paralyze).

Sometimes it's tough to get what you want because your communion units are non-homogeneous and you may prefer to have your slaves not casting. They'll usually behave themselves for the 1st to 5th turns at least if you script (Comm Slave, 4*Hold).

It's only when you do want your slaves to cast but they are after your masters (in battle order) that you are really out of luck.

Re: Can a Mage be Both Communion Slave *and* Maste
 

And if master C is also a slave?

Re: Can a Mage be Both Communion Slave *and* Maste
 

C won't cast, because he is a slave, and a master has already casted a spell that turn.

Re: Can a Mage be Both Communion Slave *and* Maste
 

So basically, a master can also be a slave but the limitations of slave status still apply, often to the caster's detriment.

And the opponent's amusement.

Re: Can a Mage be Both Communion Slave *and* Maste
 

1) Switch to the province you are planning a combined attack on.
2) Click 'y'.
3) ???
4) Profit!

Re: Can a Mage be Both Communion Slave *and* Maste
 

Behold the power of reading the manual! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/cool.gif

I had to check the hotkeys list to find out what 'y' does. I had no idea that command was available.

Re: Can a Mage be Both Communion Slave *and* Maste
 

Nice, I never thought of that. It works well if you've got both armies moving into the same place. I don't think that Y accounts for teleported commanders though =\

Jazzepi

Re: Can a Mage be Both Communion Slave *and* Maste
 

In some cases you can fake it by ordering all armies to move into a province that is not really the province you are attacking, use 'Y' to sort out battle scripts and commands, then give the orders for the real move (or teleport). If the armies are all coming together from all over the map, then you're out of luck.

Re: Can a Mage be Both Communion Slave *and* Maste
 

If A and/or B cast spells in a turn, do they still count as communion slaves, i.e. are the paths of C boosted, and do A and B take fatigue from C casting spells ? Or are they out of the communion for that turn?

Re: Can a Mage be Both Communion Slave *and* Maste
 

They still count as communion slaves.

Re: Can a Mage be Both Communion Slave *and* Maste
 

So if you make the mages that come last in the unit ID order communion masters, and the unit with smaller ID numbers slaves, all the slaves can cast spells, plus they benefit of the spells cast by the master(s) (say earth power or power of the spheres), plus the masters have they paths boosted by the slaves (on top of earth power and power of the spheres in this case) ?!? Am I getting this right ?

Re: Can a Mage be Both Communion Slave *and* Maste
 

I don't know the answer to that.

I do know if you try to be clever and have slaves/masters all casting every round, then by the end of the battle you will have alot of dead mages!

After killing several groups of 8 and 16 mages using communion slave/master, I give up on it!

I would just use communion slave/master in extreme emergency when you desperately need a certain high level spell and expect to lose the mages.

Fatigue = mage killer http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/Sick.gif

Re: Can a Mage be Both Communion Slave *and* Maste
 

Yes.
Of course, the slaves only cast until they go unconscious, which happens sooner since they're casting. Easier to kill them off that way, too.

Also, the slaves only get the boost from path boosters they already have.

Here's a question though, if the master casts Summon Earthpower do slaves without any Earth magic get the reinvig?

Re: Can a Mage be Both Communion Slave *and* Maste
 

I used lots of communions in my last game and i learned that you have to take in consideration the objective of the communion at the moment of the setup. Communions are rather flexible and they allow some nice strategies, but if you lose the focus and try to cast a bit more than it can handle, then you can have some nasty results.
Just one word of advice, to get it right and dont lose a game to a bad planned communion always try it before in a SP test game. You'll be surprised of how many times you'll blow it just for a little detail and be glad you didnt test it in a MP game.
(I've been hours trying to setup communions to cast Fog Warriors and Doom + Bone Grinding x 2 as Ermor)

Re: Can a Mage be Both Communion Slave *and* Maste
 

I remember from another topic on communions that slaves get a boost to the paths they do not normally have for the purpose of calculating the fatigue they gain. In a communion of two slaves and one master, even a slave with 0 in a path will count as having 1 in that path when the fatigue is calculated.

Now, whether power of the spheres makes that 2, because the slave has a "pseudo path" of 1 due to the communion, or leaves the path at 1 because the slave's base path is 0, I don't know.

I will try it in my SP game as MA arcosephale. With astrologers and mystics, mass communions are easy to set up.

Re: Can a Mage be Both Communion Slave *and* Maste
 

AFAIK every boost a slave receives is realized when reducing fatigue even if it is not displayed.

Thus, a communion slave that lacks earth will have an effective score of +2 if two different, or one same, of the master(s) casts Summon Earth Power and Power of the Spheres.

The above bonus should also stack with the natural increase in slave casting levels from the communion.

Jazzepi

Re: Can a Mage be Both Communion Slave *and* Maste
 

I'll be interested in seeing the results of that test, Yrkoon.
I was pretty sure it didn't work that way. I'd thought that having a master cast spells from a path the slaves didn't have was a quick way to kill off the slaves.

I am 99% sure slaves do not get a boost from the master's booster spells towards casting their own spells, if they do not have the path in question, even if the boost applies to reducing fatigue from the master's spells.

Still curious whether side effects of the boosters, like Earth powers reinvig apply to slaves with the path.

Re: Can a Mage be Both Communion Slave *and* Maste
 

I've tested that out and it's true, psuedo paths do benefit from boosts *when* they're acting as slaves (not casting themselves). When casting by themselves only the paths they actually have are boosted.

So for instance, scripting 4 S1 mages to be slaves, then having your masters cast power of the spheres and phoenix power will leave you with slaves quite capable of soaking up some heavy fire casting.

The other way to play that is having (for instance) 10 S1 F1 mages scripted to be slaves, then two masters (last in order) cast phoenix power and power of the spheres. Your slaves will now all be able to spam falling fires, and with only two masters they're unlikely to kill anybody off once they're done vomiting fire all over the battlefield and pass out. If you've got a B1 guy (who can sabbath Master) have him scripted to cast reinvigoration when you think the slaves will be passing out and you'll get 10 falling fires per turn for 6 turns. Not bad for f1 s1 mages and one b1.

Re: Can a Mage be Both Communion Slave *and* Maste
 

I have found that regenerating mages have surprisingly high resilience in Communions (although they sometimes pick up afflictions too). Instead of regaining 5 fatigue per round, they effectively regain 5 + (regener * 10) fatigue per round because 1 HP = 10 fatigue. At least, that's what I remember, although I'm not at home to check. I'd probably try this with C'tis, and have one lizard shaman master cast Personal Regeneration while a bunch of Sauromancers used them as living batteries.

Regenerating personal guards + Soul Vortex works, too. I've done this as LA Agartha with sepulchrals (and DrPraetorius' undead blessing hotfix).

-Max

Re: Can a Mage be Both Communion Slave *and* Maste
 

Not quite that simple, I don't think.

They only get the benefit of the regen once they hit 200 fatigue and start taking damage. And while, 1hp = 1 fatigue, that's rounded up, so after 200 fatigue they'll take 1 hp for every spell cast. Since slave mages tend to be normal humans, they'll only have ~10 hp and thus regen 2 max. It'll help, but much less than having a master cast Summon Earthpower or an Earth bless(assuming sacred slaves) since that'll help keep them from reaching 200 in the first place.