TI what is it good for?
 

Hi all,

I don't have much expeirence on this forum.(I spend most of my lesiure time playing, because this game is so addictive to me)
I would like to apoligize in advance for breaking any unwritten rules when posting. Thanks :-D

THE POLL:

(A) Do you feel that TI affects your enjoyment of SPMBT when playing soviet technolgy against western technolgy or vice versa during 1980-1994?(YES - NO)
(B) In what way and to what extent would you describe your play expeirence being affected?
(C) Any other comments you would like to add?

1. [A] Yes, although I do not use PBEM.
[b] When I have TI agaisnt an AI that does not have TI, it feels like I'm a Turkish machine gunner in the film "Gallipoli". The carnage of my opponent is so easy it horrifies my sense of fair play.
On the other hand when the AI and my position is reversed, I feel like I'm one of the CIA soldiers in the film "Predater". Where I lose powerfull units to an unseen and devious alien hunter, where at every corner my 'state of the art' eastern bloc assets can and do fall victem at no warning to the "predater". I am thus afraid to even move my units outside of spawn, lest the "predater" be drawn to them by the scent of their fear.
[C] In case your wondering I always play with at least 10,000 points + half of support points on assualt and all of support points on defend. On average half of my units are afv's the other half are leg class units.

The reason I did this poll was just to see where other wargamers stood on the matter
I seriously doubt Mobhack will even consider the possibility of making any changes. Although I admit no changes may be needed, after reading many other posts I'm paranoid that this may be dismissed out of hand.

Re: Unauthorized Poll for SPMBT
 

Thermal Imaging is really effective in real life too. When I was riding an BMP-1 with experimental turret from LAV-25 fitted to it, american thermals give us a distinct advantage of seeing even single soldiers through forest and underbrush from a few hundred meters out waiting for us in an ambush. It nothing like the old infrared or nightvision devices. Some things are really lit up on it.

And if you think TI gives a massive advantage, you can see that it costs quite a lot in the cost calculator too. If you have no TI and opponent have, you must drag him into close quarters ambush. You´ll have more units than him for a given set of points. In 1980, Soviet armor is quite tough against usually used 105mm ammo. Only TOW can kill you instantly. However wen 120mm comes to the scene you´ll be in a distinct disadvantage against 120+TI.

And for the poll: Yes TI affects my gameplaying, but in a good way, since I´ve used to its characteristics. for example missile teams with TI cost usually 100+ points.. if you plaster one out with an artillery barrage or inf-mmgs you can bet it feels good. The point equivalent of 4 infatry squads wiped out in an instance from the enemy arsenal. Usually my thermal fitted vehicles are tanks and FO units, maybe a few missile teams carefully hidden because of their vulnerability to anykind of fire.

Re: Unauthorized Poll for SPMBT
 

It would be greatly appreiacted if a webmaster could put this post in the equipment section


as for pdokar, Thanks for responding to my post. I look forward to trying your tactics.

Re: Unauthorized Poll for SPMBT
 

Answer: Blowing stuff up.

Re: Unauthorized Poll for SPMBT
 

My opinion on the matter is that the game should represent reality to the best our understanding of it and game limitations. And as far is known TI is indeed a huge advantage. Balance is to be achieved by pricing and scenario setup rather than tweaking code on the basis of a misguided sense of fairness. This, mind you, comes from somebody who is accustomed to play as the iraqis against the US in 1991. Even in such loopsided engagements it is possible to achieve at least draw if numbers, terrain etc are carefully exploited.

Re: Unauthorized Poll for SPMBT
 

I know personally I'd LOVE to see TI capability available at ranges (and costs) less then 40 hexes. There's no reason/need for a 40 hex range on infantry squads, MMG's, Inf AT (LAAW, SMAW, RPG, etc) weapons yet if you want TI capability you're currently "stuck" with a 40 hex range/cost.

I suspect this is one of those issues where no change is practical because it's buried in the code and would require going thru every unit in every OOB to implement.

As to changing my game play.
Definitely !

Re: Unauthorized Poll for SPMBT
 

Thanks everyone for responding. The exellent attitude of wargamers here is a major reason why this game is so fun. I have a few more questions if you will bear with me,

RecruitMonty, If you can find the time and wouldn't mind indulging my curiosity could you answer [A],[b] and [C]. Thanks

Marcello, if you wouldn't mind sharing your exploits agaisnt the US this would be exellent, the BEST I can do agaisnt U.S. Army with Iraq is a marginal defeat! thats the BEST, I suck X-D. I would love to learn from your expeirence. Thanks

Re: Unauthorized Poll for SPMBT
 

It isn't really that difficult, I am a mediocre player really (what I actually do most of the time is using mobhack and testing what I have created in shooting range style scenarios). The key is employing the terrain in such a way as to have the americans driving past your positions and then getting them with flank and rear shots by T-72s. Typically this means a reverse slope defense where the tanks are hugging the base of the ridge or others available reliefs, hidden inside their irregularities as to eliminate (to the extent this is possible) frontal fire arcs, retaining only narrow side fire arcs and large rears ones. This ensures that when the Abrams charge beyond the ridge top at least a few T-72s can survive to get flank and rear shots.
This is of course possible under SPMBT near laboratory conditions. In real life an iraqi commander who had been ordered to deploy on an essentially flat terrain, who could expect the enemy coming from several directions, had little idea of the exact US tactical capabilities and faced an US commander usually smarter than your run of the mill videogame AI was in a rather uglier predicament.

Re: Unauthorized Poll for SPMBT
 

And mind you, Iraq-US scenarios are about the worst situation you can get into. Get into mid-European typical terrain with hills, forests, villages and towns and you get major boost of non-TI forces as it is much easier to hide even from TI. Under correct circumstances even lowly T-55 can ambush Abrams with fatal results.

Re: Unauthorized Poll for SPMBT
 

Actually this IS about the worse " worse case sceanrio" I can think of. A newbie playing as the Iraqi's in the desert against the Americans. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...s/rolleyes.gif

No..... I stand corrected, you could have the map visibility set to 5 for a night battle. That would be worse. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

Maybe a nice "balkans" battle in the 1960s might make a better game at this stage for you?

Don

Re: Unauthorized Poll for SPMBT
 

DRG that sounds like an exellent suggestion, Do you have any particular countries in mind?

Re: Unauthorized Poll for SPMBT
 

If you want taks and TI and a nice fight try for example germany vs. UK in 1980->2020 range. Although somewhat ahistorical (who cares..?), countries are pretty evenly matched and both have lot of high-tech equipment and good tanks against each other. If TI bothers you, try some latin american or african countries and before 1990.

Re: Unauthorized Poll for SPMBT
 

Try Yugoslavia against Yugoslavia in 1969.

There are a number of good maps that appear for Yugoslavia but if you want something interesting try pressing "View Map" then press the upper right hand button and enter 183

Don

Re: Unauthorized Poll for SPMBT
 

Now drifting off the Balcans, but good matches might be found in Mid Europe as well - for example during the Cold War, Czechoslovakia vs. Poland or Hungary means almost the same kit for both sides, with enough difference in unit names to not get confused http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif And Map Generator (pbuh) will get you most of times good terrain.

I'd slao recommend starting with smaller battles (both smaller maps than standard and less points), slowly expanding forcesas well as territory.

Re: Unauthorized Poll for SPMBT
 

Not "ahistorical" since the NATO forces (and others) played exercises against each other. Just think of the casualties as being adjudicated by the umpires (DS staff, white hats) and/or MILES type laser gear.

I can recall being chased across Salisbury Plain by some "enemy" chieftains (with a DS staff landy following), when we were returning from a bn O group. They were heading into a hide area for one of our platoons, this resulted in Jocks popping up all over the place and indicating their presence, so as not to be run over!. 1/51 were on one side, the UK School of Armour cadre and some West German territorial paras were in the OPFOR. "A" company (us) inherited a lone ferret scout car we found out on weekend exercise from some TA Yeomanry unit. (Ferret scout car capacity, one officer cadet liaison orificer (moi), perched on the back deck, which was nice and warm on a cold night!). And I remember when the Germans were dropped, the exercise being temporarily put on hold with several "no duff" radio calls over the net for the medics to go deal with casualty calls on the paras..

Cheers
Andy

Re: Unauthorized Poll for SPMBT
 

Ty DRG, Mobhack, Marek for the quick response, I usually don't get this level of service even If I had to pay for it! I look foward to using Yugo vs Yugo on an "exercise" in the 1960's with heavy armour contrensation. Also I will give 183 a look. I suppose with a sad heart this thread is at an end unless anyone else has some comments on TI.

Again thanks!

Re: Unauthorized Poll for SPMBT
 

1st Question: Yes. Nothing quite like brewing up a whole load of Soviet or Warsaw Pact tanks. That will teach them to cross the border without a permit.

2nd Question: Positively. Of course the side with TI is going to have an advantage that is what it is for. It also costs a pretty penny.

3rd Question: Hmm... Yes and? I play the scenarios from time to time but it has to be said I am busy moding things and testing changes.

Re: Unauthorized Poll for SPMBT
 

Another fun scenario is US Army VS US Marines "War Games".

If you model your forces accurately the Army basically can't defeat the USMC when attacking them, but the Marines get totally creamed attacking the Army.

Re: Unauthorized Poll for SPMBT
 

It is not a 'code' thing insofar as a 40 hex range on thermal imaging devices. As I am sure we all understand, thermal imaging devices register the thermal (heat) radiation from objects. Radiated energy of this type travels in a straight line at the speed of light. Thermal imaging devices are line-of-sight, and are quite capable of 'seeing' well beyond 2000m (40 hexes). If anything, the 40 hex range limit within the confines of the came engine should be considered conservative.

Re: Unauthorized Poll for SPMBT
 

Well, low-wavelength infrared reflected on targets by the IR searchlight of old-style active night vision devices travel in a straight line at lightspeed as well, so where is the point?
Also, nothing whatsoever in the game will prevent you from having TI/GSR* units with vision ranges up to 255 hexes, for whatever good it will do.
I think, since we already had this discussion here, that Suhiir regrets that there cannot be units with TI sight range inferior to 40 hexes. Vision rating under 40 will not see through smoke as opposed to TI/GSR from 40 onwards.
Personally, I agree that for infantry vision devices, some AT weapons and maybe old low-tech stuff with poor definition, having a lower recognition range and accordingly lower cost could be interesting but I don*t think it is going to happen.

*Yes, TI and GSR are one and the same thing in the game, in the sense that they are just a property that allows a unit to see through otherwise obscuring elements (smoke, vegetation...). So no need to go all physicist, "TI" is what sees through smoke and what sees through smoke is TI, more or less.

Re: Unauthorized Poll for SPMBT
 

On a related subject.

Anyone here had and direct experience with Ground Surveillance Radar (GSR) ?
From my understanding in any terrain with more then minimal vegetation (i.e. anything more then the occasional tree here and there) the stuff is of limited value.

Re: Unauthorized Poll for SPMBT
 

I heard an anecdote from a professor of mine who had served in Korea who said that the AN/PPS-5A units they were using to keep an eye on the DMZ couldn't tell the difference between dislodged ice chunks floating in a river and a truck convoy (which apparently almost started an incident according to him).

Re: TI what is it good for?
 

About what time period was he serving there?

Andrew

Re: TI what is it good for?
 

Tried this with visibility about 15 to represent the oil fires & nothing but a wadi or 2 as a terrain feature. Getting a look at the enemy let alone engaging him is nigh on impossible & makes you realise why they stopped. Not a lot diffrent to just lining them up & shooting.

Yug Croatia as in Serbs similar equipment if Serb infantry is a bit lacking.

TI vs none TI. In Europe it is not such a big problem anywhere with cover you just need to exploit it.
Problems.
1) He can see into hexes you cant so you can get caught out, as in he can see through trees you cant.
2) Be very aware of his smoke capabilities as when its popped he can still see so high kill chance engages or bleed his smoke ability are the order of the day.
3) It is hard work would not play several games in a row at especially if visibility is below 40. Low visibility & open terrain is when it becomes a turkey shoot he can take up position with good intel you are to all intents blind.

Re: TI what is it good for?
 

NATO TI vs WP non TI can be a problem in games where the parameters (points and map size) are chosen to fit the (much more expensive) NATO force (which happens all the time). That means that if you can buy enough TI equipment to cover your entire front line adequately and with some to spare you've either got far too many points or a map that's much too small.

Under such circumstances the numerical advantage of the WP accounts for far less than it should. WP forces weren't supposed to blindly throw themselves at enemy strong points. A specific setup should allow for manouvre to play a significant part.
And compensate the WP by giving them plenty of air points (more than NATO as they employed far more aircraft and helicopters for CCS).

Narwan

Re: TI what is it good for?
 

I see what you are saying but it was either Don or Andy that said under no circumstances would the map and unit limit be getting bigger, so TI will always be king. For me I only use the 80x100 and I never have even reached the limit for core. But for a pro I could see how these two things could be a grave disappointment.

Andrew

Re: TI what is it good for?
 

Many maps, unless you are in the desert (or steppes for Russia) usually have enough rolling terrain and trees to allow for reducing the TI advantage somewhat. Using wingmen and overwatch helps as well. Some players have a bad tendency to advance too quickly, poking around to see what shoots at them. Playing with BTR equipped forces will generally break you of that habit pretty quickly. :doh:

Re: TI what is it good for?
 

For modern games I'd rarely play on anything but a very large map (max size or at least close to it) and with enough terrain features to break LOS considerably. It doesn't have to be close terrain everywhere but remember that 5 or 6 tanks with TI (vis 40 each) can cover the entire max map size in completely clear terrain. There's little fun in that if your on the other side (I play PBEM mostly, rarely against the AI anymore). Those are indeed ideal conditions for TI so assume the enemy has some brains and will choose to fight in terrain and under conditions which if not favorable to them, at least aren't suicidal.

Narwan

Re: TI what is it good for?
 

Personally, I stop at 1979 or thereabouts - no TI. So tactics count for something.

It is more fun using Chieftains or M60 against the hordes that way than just plinking everything in your arcade-game "see-everything" sights with killem-all guns. Ditto - playing the Soviet Hordes (tm) you can limit yourself to T-5X or T-62 and still have fun while giving the NATO AI a fair crack of the whip.

I can also see what might have happened if 1/51 Highland deployed in 73/4 when I was in the TA (no Milans the TA got them a couple of years after the regulars, just 4x120mm Wombats + 4xMobats). As rear security for BAOR it would have been "hunt the desantniks" or "receive an OMG in the face"... i.e. interesting times.

Andy

Re: TI what is it good for?
 

Thank God they didn't Andy:D Or I would still be playing this game in DOS:)

Andrew

Re: TI what is it good for?
 

Is soviet russia, steel panthers plays you.

Re: Unauthorized Poll for SPMBT
 

Not exactly true. the flatter and clearer the terrain is the better. But realistically moving things show up in some modes, and metal things tend to reflect radar signals better than trees. I think the treatment of TI in the game is rather simple, especially since since the 90's the vehicle screening smoke or arty smoke has been multispectral (i.e. blocks TI) to use.

Also the TI range is about right, in theory sure you could see forever, but in reality you have a limited sized detector and resolution at long ranges is a real problem. consider the detectors were something like 320x160elements or pixels if you perfer (depended on the model of course).

I would second any motions for allowing units to have TI but with less range (like infantry TI units), also for adding multispectral smoke rounds/SD (does VRISS already do this).

Re: TI what is it good for?
 

You want challenge with TI?
Try the good ole US vs USSR in Germany around '83-84: the best you have in US tanks is 105mm '83, that has a hard time penetrating the current top-notch Soviet T-64B/T-72B/T-80B beyond 1000m, while the 125mm 2A46 model 1983 can toast an IPM1 at about 1500-1800m (according to my tests). That's only tank on tank, so hold the TOWs and plenty of arty on the Eastern side.
And when you're done holding off the red hordes, try assaulting them. :D

Looks like this is still valid with the v4.5 OOBs.

P.S. ditto on IR-screening smoke, again, feasibility issue...

Re: TI what is it good for?
 

I've seen the view afforded by TI, and it is awesome.

GSR at least the new stuff with a fair operator is quite good as well. But it is range and site dependant. To be sure I have heard that the earlier versions sucked. And another thing the operator told me was he had a hell of a time convincing some officers the thing just cannot see though solid objects, hills and building etc!! LOL He also worked with the older models and some of our allies older stuff and he said "it used to make his eyes bleed trying to make use of the info in the screen" he certainly didn't have kind words but loved his new equipment.

Bob out:D

Re: TI what is it good for?
 

makes eyes bleed:D reminds me of my primary schools' Apple IIe green and black computer monitors

Regards,
Andrew:smirk:

Re: TI what is it good for?
 

Shows you what I know about radar :D
I wasn't aware objects made of different materials reflected it differently - I assumed an object is an object is an object.

That was more my point on the TI range (not that it matters much), the detector size has a rather significant effect on the "effective vision range" of the TI.

And yes, the VRISS in game does act as multispectral smoke, the only "problem" is it only effects a currently incomming round rather then createing a smoke screen.

Re: TI what is it good for?
 

If i may, recommend this book:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glide_Path
by A.C. Clarke, based on his wartime experiences with participation on Ground-Controlled Approach project. There are various interesting radar snippets incl. using the radar for GCA as a sort of GSR to repel an "intruder" training, using the radar to track helmets ;)