Conceptual Balance 1.21
 

Documentation is still unfortunately lagging behind the changes, but here is a rough list of updates:

*Dwarven hammers back to base game prices.

*Independent commanders now cost only slightly more than in the base game.

*Mother of monsters spawns monsters.

*Phoenix has auto phoenix pyre effect.

*Mother of Rivers has auto rain effect.

*Star of heroes, star of thraldom, evening star made area of effect.

*Worthy Heroes 1.8 merged into CB complete/nations.

*Several troop summons made commanders (demon jesters, scorpion men, kithaironic lions, giant eagles, amphithetre).

*Many national summons improved.

*Bear claw talisman cheaper.

*Moon warriors improved.

*New nations updated to fit CB.

Version 1.21:

*Fixed aoe weapon bugs.

*Fixed Starting troop and recruitment bugs.

*Fixed several residual item changes that should have been removed (thistle mace, charcoal shield, research items).

*Fixed magic scale bug.

*Magic (x)bow items improved.

Re: Conceptual Balance Mod 1.2
 

Segmented version.

Re: Conceptual Balance Mod 1.2
 

Thanks QM. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Your changes to the prtenders in particular make the game more interesting.

Now if there was only creative things that could get done with regular commanders.

Re: Conceptual Balance Mod 1.2
 

Auto-Spawning of weak national troops for national commanders was in the works for this version, in fact I even had it modded in for most nations, but in the end it just seemed a little too messy.

Re: Conceptual Balance Mod 1.2
 

Ooh! Exciting. I will definitely have a play with this later today.

Re: Conceptual Balance Mod 1.2
 

woohoo!

thanks qm ^^

Re: Conceptual Balance Mod 1.2
 

Thanks. Can't wait to get using a phoenix. Immortal to handle afflictions and with phoenix pyre from turn one..

Will every giant eagle I summon be a commander, or is the commander a separate spell?

Re: Conceptual Balance Mod 1.2
 

They're all commanders. It replaces the original troop summon.

Re: Conceptual Balance Mod 1.2
 

Aaaaaah !
A big thank for this speedy work QM ! The Father Of All Mods is back again ! ( no offense intended to any mod or modder of any race, origin, religion or philosophical current).

Re: Conceptual Balance Mod 1.2
 

Gotta start MP game with that http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Re: Conceptual Balance Mod 1.2
 

I think I found an error.

It seems the intention was to give the Star of Heroes an 1 AOE armor destruction.

However, as coded, the Star of Heroes now has a 1 AOE damage attack AND a 1 AOE armor destruction. Further, the Magic Sceptre has also been given this ability. It's a simple numbering error: 172 = magic sceptre, 173 = star of heroes, and 174 = armor destruction.



As coded (first 3 entries under "Items"):

#selectitem "Star of Heroes"
#constlevel 0
#end

#selectweapon 172
#secondaryeffectalways 173
#end

#selectweapon 173
#aoe 1
#end


EDIT: also need to remove original secondary effect
I think it's supposed to be:

#selectitem "Star of Heroes"
#constlevel 0
#end

#selectweapon 173
#secondaryeffect 0
#end

#selectweapon 173
#secondaryeffectalways 174
#end

#selectweapon 174
#aoe 1
#end

Re: Conceptual Balance Mod 1.2
 

Hmm, I've found an interesting bug:

Magic scale in the segmented mod is worth +33RP!

http://i26.tinypic.com/okaa2s.jpg

Re: Conceptual Balance Mod 1.2
 

Thank you, I'll get a fix uploaded soon.

As for the scale issue, that's about the third time that's cropped up, I think it only effects the segmented version. Anyway, I'll upload a fixed version for that soon as well.

Re: Conceptual Balance Mod 1.2
 

QM: more corrections for the other Stars...


Star of Thraldom should be:

#selectitem "Star of Thraldom"
#constlevel 0
#end

#selectweapon 218
#secondaryeffect 0
#end

#selectweapon 218
#secondaryeffectalways 219
#end

#selectweapon 219
#aoe 1
#end



Evening Star:

#selectitem "Evening Star"
#constlevel 2
#end

#selectweapon 304
#secondaryefect 0
#end

#selectweapon 304
#secondaryefectalways 305
#end

#selectweapon 305
#aoe 1
#end


The Evening Star one is important, because as it stands, the square being attacked is hit with Weakness as many times as there are units which occupy it. So in a square containing 3 units, each will be hit with Fire once, and Weakness three times. In a square containing 6 units, each will be hit with Fire once, and Weakness six times. Poor hobbits.

Re: Conceptual Balance Mod 1.2
 

I found those errors because I was putting together a CBM specific forging reference, not unlike the one linked in my signature.

It's attached. Feel free to include it in your distribution. If not, that's cool too.

Re: Conceptual Balance Mod 1.2
 

Awesome! Good work Cleveland! At a stroke you've made CB vastly more playable.

I guess you'll know as well as anyone - are there many changes to the forging levels? I couldn't see that many at a quick glance, apart from Thistle Mace -> N3.

Re: Conceptual Balance Mod 1.2
 

If the thistle mace is still there it's a bug, nothing should be harder to forge than base game now.

Re: Conceptual Balance Mod 1.2
 

No problem, glad to help.

Yes, there are substantial changes to the forging levels. In general, there's been a great shift toward making items more accessible. Easily 50 items were modified, and I'd guess 90% of the changes were decreases in Const level, decreases in mage level, or both.

Some interesting changes I recall:
-Many more easily accessible AOE weapons. The new ones, as mentioned are the Star of Heros, Evening Star, and Star of Thraldom. Doom glave now only S1, Const0.
-All research boosters reduced. Skull mentor now D1, Const6; owl quill, Const0; lightless lantern, Const4.
-Charcoal shield now Const6 (up from Const4)
-Thistle Mace was the only booster to change.

Re: Conceptual Balance Mod 1.2
 

Research boosters (apart from owl quills) were also supposed to be reset to base game. Charcoal shield I might move back simply to reduce confusion.

I knew when I uploaded 1.2 I must be forgetting something, seems I forgot to implement my items to do list. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Re: Conceptual Balance Mod 1.2
 

I've been playing a bit with command auras. Add this to a mod of your choice and let me know what you think.

If they work well, they could help to encourage the use of national commanders in actual combat, without (hopefully) stepping on the toes of the mages too much.

Re: Conceptual Balance Mod 1.2
 

Cool Dr P. I didn't think such command arua's were possible. These would add a lot of interest to the game.

For other ideas:
-Hydra Tamers can offer poison resitance to nearby troops
-Pangae type commanders and barabarians could have some sort of autobeserk capabilities to nearby troops. (Though this would be a problem because you couldn't turn it off.)
- Some of the poorer mage commanders, like witch doctors and the LA atlantis ones, could have some sort of special aura. There unit decriptions make them sound like they would be in the front lines with the troops.

The idea of aura's is cool, but may be taking things a bit too far.

Re: Conceptual Balance Mod 1.2
 

About that, what do the numbers after "domsummon" mean? (e.g., domsummon2, domsummon20)

Re: Conceptual Balance Mod 1.2
 

Domsummon2 is half as effective as domsummon, domsummon20 is 1/20th as effective as domsummon.

Re: Conceptual Balance Mod 1.2
 

I had a bug with a 4 harms commander who had 5 weapons (3 defaults and 2 items)

Re: Conceptual Balance Mod 1.2
 

Does tht LA Bogarus elite cav get bow instead of lance ? I found no description in the readme about it.

Btw, i like the change, it feels more thematic.

Re: Conceptual Balance Mod 1.2
 

That's not really CB related.

As for the Bogarus cav, the only change should have been giving cavalry with no hoof a hoof attack, and those with a hoof attack a warhorse hoof attack.

Re: Conceptual Balance Mod 1.2
 

Personally, I think you could give the Bogarus cavalry a slight reduction in gold cost, so that they'd be closer to LA Tien Chi cavalry. The Black Hoods seem like they'd be from a similar horse-nomad culture as the Barbarian Kings, and the standard-bearers could really use a reduction in cost.

Re: Conceptual Balance Mod 1.2
 

Very cool you got the aura idea working, I am looking forward to seeing the auras you come up with.

Re: Conceptual Balance Mod 1.2
 

For those interested there are two CB multiplayer games starting up, an EA one by me, and a newbie LA game by Zeldor. They are in the multiplayer subforum.

Re: Conceptual Balance Mod 1.2
 

You might want to wait until he uploads the update fix!

Re: Conceptual Balance Mod 1.2
 

I spotted two bugs :
There are two recruitable vans for ME Vanheim.
EE Ermor has Arcos starting troops and commanders.

Re: Conceptual Balance Mod 1.2
 

I'm not sure if you are aware of this or not, but I just "fixed" the 33 research bug - the scales mod was missing an #end at the end http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif
(found by opening both 1.1 and 1.2 versions of the scales mod and comparing)

Re: Conceptual Balance Mod 1.2
 

I like your mod very much http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

But, with 3,14, Touch of Madness is fixed, perhaps you should restore this spell now.

Re: Conceptual Balance Mod 1.2
 

Is there any interest in a pikemen + animalawe mod?

It would require 2 components:
1) Cavalry would need to be quite a bit cheaper, to the point that they were pretty well the preferred melle units.
2) All Cavalry are "animals", and units armed with spears, pikes, etc. get some degree of animal awe.

This would kinda screw over the various monkey nations, since I don't think their special rules could be restored (reincarnation, for example) if you stripped off animal.

The effect would (ideally) be:
swordsmen beat pikemen beat cavalry beat swordsmen

Which is not quite the desired:
Light cavalry beat heavy infantry beat heavy cavalry beat light infantry beat light cavalry

But would come close.

Re: Conceptual Balance Mod 1.2
 

That has been discussed since dom2, there are number of issues like (like the monkey one), still, it could be worth testing.

Re: Conceptual Balance Mod 1.2
 

A scout of mine just witnessed a battle with a bunch of Crones blasting their (Man's) archers with Touch of Madness, in a 3.14 game. Not my nation, but I'm fairly sure the Crones were scripted to cast Panic, intended for enemy units out of range. Like 6 Crones casting, every single one casting Touch of Madness, and all of the casts hitting archers or slingers.

The next round was worse, the crones managed to berserk a crone and Man's god too, in addition to some more slingers and archers.

IMO it's still not ready for prime time.

Re: Conceptual Balance Mod 1.2
 

Why do you need to strip the animal from monkeys? Link animal to mounted instead.

Re: Conceptual Balance Mod 1.2
 

Monkeys such as all of Bandar Log's troops. Vanara, Bandar etc have animal tag, which would really limit the usefulness of their troops against anyone with pikes.

Re: Conceptual Balance Mod 1.2
 

I see what you mean. With their low moral they won't be able to hit anything. But I dont see it as such a problem. The pikes will still be vulnerable to missiles. Giving them animalawe will create a niche for them, one they dont have now.

Re: Conceptual Balance Mod 1.2
 

Ulmish pikeneers have a bit better morale. I've used them because of that, but I'm not sure if it's worth it at just 11 mor vs 10.

Re: Conceptual Balance Mod 1.2
 

Sorry, I meant the low moral of the monkeys will not allow them to hit pikemen with animalawe.

Re: Conceptual Balance Mod 1.2
 

I meant that pikeneers could have a niche besides animalawe. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...ies/tongue.gif Sorry about that.

Re: Conceptual Balance Mod 1.2
 

This is a really neat idea, but probably not workable via animalawe.

I propose an alternate solution: give heavy cavalry trample, and pikemen size 3.

Since trample only works against smaller units, sz-2 cavalry can smush sz-2 swordsmen, but not sz-3 pikemen, whose repelling long weapons will make them a cost effective counter against trampling heavy cav.

Thoughts?

Re: Conceptual Balance Mod 1.2
 

So the phalanx becomes resistant to cavalry because of its loose formation http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif?

That's worth trying (remember to make the pikemen resource size 2 and to lower their food consumption by 1 unit) but has a lot of other clumsy effects.

The ideal solution would be to give pikes and some other weapons an anti-cavalry identifier with the following game mechanics:
* Ignores the defense bonus for mounted units.
* Repel attacks against mounted units inflict full damage, *and* gain a charge bonus to damage based on the attacking mounted unit's AP.

That'd give the heavy cavalry serious second thoughts about charging a pike square, and would also encourage tight formations of pike squares (for more attacks.)

Re: Conceptual Balance Mod 1.2
 

Or you could make the pikemen triple size-three units like the Skavenslaves. Now they look like they have a tight formation, and they resist trampling too. When a triple is reduced to a double or single, then it's easy for the cavalry to trample it.

The main thing broken about this is that after a battle, 12 leftover single-pikemen units could not recombine into 4 triple-pikemen units.

Re: Conceptual Balance Mod 1.2
 

I like that. But what about non-pike units with animalawe? They are still being attacked by the cavalry. I think that, whether you give pikes animalawe or not, all cavalry should be animal.

Re: Conceptual Balance Mod 1.2
 

Also AOE effects can kill a maximum of 1 pikeman/skavenslave per square, which definitely bothers me.

Re: Conceptual Balance Mod 1.2
 

Not to mention the weirdness with stuff like soul slay, afflictions, and gift of reason.

Re: Conceptual Balance Mod 1.2
 

"gain a charge bonus to damage based on the attacking mounted unit's AP "

I could see that. Where both the pikemen and the heavy cavalry get killed when the cavalry hits with the charge.

In this case, the 'vs cavalry' bonus would be tied into an enemy unit having a charge attack and not a mounted identifier.

However, adding a new unit ability would probably best be done by Illwinter and not by modding. Anyway, it's an intriguing idea that should be carefully examined in a myriad ways by the community (Possibly better outside the modding section of the forum).

Re: Conceptual Balance Mod 1.2
 

The point I'm making is that any solution we achieve through modding is inherently somewhat clumsy. Personally, I like the "animal awe" one best.

It's unlikely that KO is going to implement an entirely new weapon ability; but it's at least conceivable that, if there were consensus:
a) That pikes and longspears (and similar weapons) *should* have an additional bonus against cavalry (the repel attacks actually do help somewhat under the current rules,) and
b) what exactly the bonus should be.

he might.