Pythium (MA) strategy
 

I'd like a few pointers for pythium

1) what do you advice for pretender scales and paths
- I figure I need him/her to cast the summons later (the theurgs won't be able to do it I think)
- Do I want death magic on him or should I just forget it completely
- minor Earth bless might be nice I figure
-I wonder on which scales I can save some points most seem needed

2) troops
-for early expansion should I use velites or more prot (and resource) heavy troops?
-are serpent riders ever worth it?
-I figure I'll leave the hydra's out my army at start

3) mages
-arch theurg are expensive but a turn not buying one means one less... should I start buying arch theurg right from the start or better just regular theurgs?
I mean with arch-T's I won't have any army adn I can't use them to full potential anyway...

4) at start how would you advice starting research..
first a lil thaum and then conjuration? Plz tell me the first goals you think are important and why?

Re: Pythium (MA) strategy
 

and next: how good is that standard bearer and the standard commander..I never really figured out how much use they are in combat..

6 or 10... what is the difference and how exactly does that bonus work?

Re: Pythium (MA) strategy
 

and next: how good is that standard bearer and the standard commander..I never really figured out how much use they are in combat..

6 or 10... what is the difference and how exactly does that bonus work?

Re: Pythium (MA) strategy
 

scales:
you need order for your expensive mages and troops.
Your heavy inf makes taking sloth scales a bad idea.
your old-age mages and troops speak against taking death.
Your crappy Province Defense won't help you much against misfortune events.
Your mages are destined to cast astral spells, so taking magic scales will help them with reseach as well as with overcoming your opponents magic resistance (enslave mind etc.).
Your mages and troops suffer from extra fatigue fatigue in cold/hot provinces.

All in all, try to go with order and magic. You can risk a bit misfortune if you need points.

Your excellent troops and mage-priest can fight on their own, so save points by taking a dormant or imprisoned pretender.

Pretender:
take as much earth as you can to help your sacred casters and communion slaves.
Take nature if possible for regeneration. You should aim to summon a fairy queen to heal mages damaged by Mind Hunt. Better yet, have a pretender that can heal.

Troops:
Mix the standard bearer into your other troops. Watch out for different movement speed. Give all your troops "fire closest enemy" command
Don't bother with the serpents. Build a castle in a knight/longbow province if you need lances.

Research:
Your arch-theurg can smite out of the box if i remember correctly. Concentrate on Alteration for Body Etheral and learn how to buff your troops.
Learn Solar Rays soon.

Re: Pythium (MA) strategy
 

Hm. Why do you say pythian PD is crappy? I am sure that pythian and ermorian PD are one of the best for the price in the whole game. And it really does help not only to deal with unlucky events but with invasions too.

Re: Pythium (MA) strategy
 

Never forget the non-mage communicants that have auto communion slave. If an arch theurg has the crystal matrix that auto casts communion mater, then you don´t loose a turn and the first thing you do could be a really powerful spell like master enslave.
PD is probably the best I´ve seen with tower shields and javelins. MA Ulm is ok too.
Magic 3 is really good to race to the cool spells. expand quickly and build additional forts to feed the communions as they are more important than armies.
Maybe it would be a good idea to pick mother of the rivers with added nature to forge clams. to feed astral pearls and summon angels as raiders.
all in all if you survive the early game surely you are a gifted nation.

Re: Pythium (MA) strategy
 

MA Pythium, like MA Man obviously needs two things from a bless. First is regeneration for old archtheurgs (those diseased ones may be sent to battle and have a very long life healing using the bless regeneration or just being given Shroud of the Battle Saint and left home), second is reinvigoration for sacred battlemages and communicants. Second is not necessary but very good. So, I think that a very good pretender for them would be a dormant combat pretender with N4E4, probably the Earth Mother. This build as well as in the case with MA Man aims several targets at once: decent combat pretender, good bless suiting the needs and access to earth and nature.
I don't like the idea of forging clams with pretender without a forge bonus. It is just not worth the price, especially comparing to the benefits you can get otherwise.

Re: Pythium (MA) strategy
 

I think Sloth is ok with MA Pythium because your focus is on communions, not heavy infantry. At some point your national troops are all chaff, so hire as many as you can in the early game but focus on building castles to recruit more mages. Sloth 3 might be too much, but you could probably do well with 1 or 2. Depends on your playstyle.

Re: Pythium (MA) strategy
 

hmm if possible could someone answer all my other questions too... so I can have a complete view of what each of you think is the best way to play pythium?

I can see the benefit of a E4N4 pretender as in ano's advice.. both for diversity and the minor bless

But to cast angelic host you need about S5 to cast it decently (+ the easy accessable skullcap and coin)
wouldn't it be best to have that (and the 2F) on my pretender?
How else should I cast it.

I think the research of pythium is decent.. do I need magic scales to increase it or should I leave that neutral?

My other most pressing questions:
1. which troops to use for early expansion?
2. which commander to start recruiting first 10-20 turns? the arch-theurg or the theurg? an archtheurg means no troops that turn...

Re: Pythium (MA) strategy
 

You will have many ArchTheurgs with S4. Add a skullcap and get S5 for Angelic Host. As for Heavenly Choir, it requires S7F2. If you are lucky enough (as Jazzepi counted in a neighbor thread about MA Man, the probability is about 1,25%) to get an ArchTheurg with S4F1, then use ring of wizardry, skullcap and crystal coin (you will probably have access to all by that time). If not, add some unique astral booster like dimensional rod. You may also aim to cast Wish instead of Heavenly Choir using a S5 ArchTheurg.

Re: Pythium (MA) strategy
 

As for magic scales, I know rather little amount of situations when neutral or drain scales should be taken. I think that it is almost always better to sacrifice something else and take at least magic 1. Pythium has not bad research overall..
As for the questions.
1. I can't tell you what the exact steps in the early game you should follow, because I didn't experiment with Pythium much, but your troops are very good against indies. Recruit alae legionnaires, put them to the bottom on "fire closest" and add two or three replaceable arrow catcher units for each fight. This is a very good army for early expansion, especially with prophet, certainly.
2. Well, the answer depends on what you're trying to reach. Early research is important if you are aiming for something early. For example this may be Const for items or Alt for boosters on SC. It is true for any race and any game. So if you don't need early rapid research, then you don't need ArchTheurgs in early turns. And (it may sound blasphemous) may be you don't need mages at early turns at all, depending on situation. Having no mages at 2-3 turns and a fast expansion with second castle may appear a better benefit then early research. I suggest you to try a build I've proposed for Man here http://www.shrapnelcommunity.com/thr...p;o=&vc=1. However, this build definitely needs research as you need reinvigoration on your Earth mother if you want to use her as a good fighter. If you don't rely on her as soon as she awakes, you may search sites for some turns. Everything depends on situation, as I already mentioned.

Re: Pythium (MA) strategy
 

Being a fan of the cyclops, I would suggest him for your pretender.
Dormant, E6N4 and dom5.
Order 3, Misfortune 2, Magic 1 and either Growth 2 or Prod 1 Growth 1(or Dom6 Growth 1).

Research personal regeneration before he gets out and he should kick several kinds of ***. Some minor items, particularly boots of the behemoth, will help him. Getting summon earthpower is also reccomended.

With a crystal matrix, if you can get one, he can also help your communions. With spells like bladewind, creeping doom, panic and living earth all getting boosted by high levels. The high level buffs, like mass regeneration, relief, army of gold/lead and gaias blessing are also avaliable to him. And summon earthpower/invunerability give your communions alot more staying power(with your bless, thats 7 reinvigoration. Add relief to that and they can keep going for a long time).

Re: Pythium (MA) strategy
 

yeah I'm looking at the cycolps too.. especially since the earth mother or whatever was suggested isn't in my reperoire http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/laugh.gif

I was looking at almost the same settings as you.. you think the E6 will be better over E4 and higher prod and growth?

Re: Pythium (MA) strategy
 

Maybe not. But it gives easier access to globals like the forge.

Re: Pythium (MA) strategy
 

Which then makes it easier getting rings of wizardry and the like.

Re: Pythium (MA) strategy
 

AFAIK, dom 5 or 6 can be rather hard to maintain as a lot of players will play either awake sc's with awe or mass sacred production. However, cyclops is not a bad choice overall despite I don't understand why you suggest to wear boots of begemoth on very costly size 5 cyclops instead of using much cheaper, trampling, regenerating, size 6 and more hp earth mother with the same magic for the same purpose. I really don't dig it;)

Re: Pythium (MA) strategy
 

Why Cyclops over the Mother? How about 26 protection rather than 11?
Even with trampling and regen out of the box, 11 protection really isn't enough to survive against many troops - even barbarians.

Size 5 can actually be an advantage in some cases - it allows the cyclops to fight with his weapon/s against other size 5 enemies rather than trying to trample them.

Re: Pythium (MA) strategy
 

11 protection should be boosted by Stone and Ironskin ASAP and Invul, so it's not an argument. When the pretender awakes, you should have both. As for fighting size 5 enemies... Well, trampling is really not so good on a combat pretender and it is not a secret. Purpose of such god is not fighting equally tough enemies but killing the hordes of small ones. I don't say that Earth mother is very good pretender, I just say that for purposes of trampling she is much better than cyclops you suggest.

Re: Pythium (MA) strategy
 

a better reason to not take the mother is that you CAN't TAKE the mother...

PS why not just take a cheap fountain or arch mage to get some astral and nature and earth.. and save some points and get more ... growth or something

Re: Pythium (MA) strategy
 

I don´t see a reason for a bless of regeneration. it´s pointless. Even a sling could kill the oldmen instead of hurting them.
Only an earth blessing would fit, maybe a death blessing to the battle magic damage do afflictions.

Re: Pythium (MA) strategy
 

N 4 is crucial. but not for battle.

Re: Pythium (MA) strategy
 

N4 is not only great for keeping your old mages alive with shrouds, it's also a nice bonus on your angels to reduce the chance of afflictions.

Re: Pythium (MA) strategy
 

wouldn't just be easier to get growth scale or ring of regen?
I can see using with angels, but then you must survive till you get those.

Re: Pythium (MA) strategy
 

Growth scale is needed definitely, however even with growth your mages will get diseased and die. To prevent this taking pretender with nature for making shrouds is a good solution.
As for making rings of regen... Where do you expect to get N2 fast enough to prevent your 380g mages from dying by the middle of year 2?
Moreover, I just don't see a problem in taking pretender with nature.

Re: Pythium (MA) strategy
 

Pythium has load of pearls, and Acolytes to craft S1, but no nature income to start, and not even any N1 mages, never mind N2. Shrouds are half the price too.

Growth scales do help, but at 380 gold a pop, it's nice to have a backup plan.

Re: Pythium (MA) strategy
 

Are you implying that the death blessing increases affliction chance of battle spells as well?
Has this been confirmed?

Re: Pythium (MA) strategy
 

The lesser death blessing works for everything: melee, ranged weapons, battle spell and I believe overland spells as well.

The D9 death weapons effect is only for melee weapons.

Re: Pythium (MA) strategy
 

in MP is a imprisoned pretender such a bad choice? noone advices that

BTW
wouldn't an enchantress with 4E 4N 1S and one extra pearl/turn be usefull
or a sphinx with 3s 4E 4N
(that would leave all scales and dominions the same)

Re: Pythium (MA) strategy
 

Imprisoned pretenders can be used, but you need a very strong early and mid game if you want to make use of them generally.
A combat pretender who is imprisoned probably wont appear until there are alot of SC counters around - and of course wont be able to defend against rushes.
An imprisoned mage pretender intended to diversify magic will often be a little too late to have the sort of impact you would really want on your versatility.

Re: Pythium (MA) strategy
 

Coming to the thread late but here's my take on Pythium:

1) Pretender - more or less a bless chasis for your angels. So choose paths appropriate for that. Earth will also help your mages/communions.

2) Troops - Principes and Velites are quite adequate for initial expansion. They are superior to almost all the indy troops. Body Ethereal + Hold and Attack is a common trick for early Pythium.

3) Mages - Buy as many Arch Theurgs as you can. They are cap only and the key to a lot of your strategies. Theurgs are good for researching and can be pressed into combat if you need them.

4) Research - Long term goal is always Conj for angels. For the short term, if you are facing high value single target enemies (like Eles or Giants), you want Thaum immediately. If facing regular troops you want communions and some Evoc.

Re: Pythium (MA) strategy
 

yeah but if I took one just to have decent scales, or better dominion.. or would it still be a bad thing

btw I still not convinced not taking 5S and 2 F on my pretender will make the summoning of the host possible

Re: Pythium (MA) strategy
 

Take an absent pretender and decent scales only if your mages can handle SCs

Re: Pythium (MA) strategy
 

on 3) mentioned by ironhawk: should I buy them even in the turns my income is only 360.. that means the first turns you can't even build an army to expand????

Re: Pythium (MA) strategy
 

well torin... CAN my mages handle SC?? lol I dunno

Re: Pythium (MA) strategy
 

Pythium's mages cannot handle Sc's until they get paralyze.

So if you have an enemy on your doorstep in 3-4 turns, then no they cant. But hydras are fairly tough, and likely could beat any sc not immune to poison at your capital(where hed have enemy dominion penalties.

In Fallacy, I gambled and took a dormant pretender. But i was
pretty worried about a rush for the 1st 3-4 turns.

Re: Pythium (MA) strategy
 

Hydras are Pythium's answer to most rushes. But you have to see it coming... making enemy advance through clouds of poison is great.

Of course, if Prince of Death or Ghost is coming to visit, you will be beaten and left with capital at best.

By the way, I have stopped a Vanheim rush with 6 ATs chaining smite... but I was lucky because Vanheim player only sent 14 Vans at first. And rest of them were spread. Still lost the game (to next enemy)

It's not about beating rush, it's about convincing neighbour it is not worth it. When rush fails, both players end out of running for victory.

Re: Pythium (MA) strategy
 

No need not to keep posting about MA pythium pplz...

Re: Pythium (MA) strategy
 

Pythium would laugh at a a POD or Ghost King if it rushed it.
Laugh. You have been hanging around your nephew too long Nik!

POD has no answer to solar rays. Evoc 2.

Re: Pythium (MA) strategy
 

What are these ANGELS??? harbinger angels? how do you kill them?

Re: Pythium (MA) strategy
 

Read the book for Pythium's special summons, they're listed in the summoned creature appendix.

You kill them the same sorts of way you kill most things - lots of damage, or beat their MR with the right type of spell.

Re: Pythium (MA) strategy
 

I was thinking... blood?

Those archtheurgs could become send lesser horror spam machines quite easily.

Re: Pythium (MA) strategy
 

Enough spare commanders hunting and you get enough of a trickle to eventually start empowering. Or, alternatively, if it's late on enough wish for blood slaves, you get plenty to empower and get going. You might get lucky with some indy blood mages, in which case go ahead.

Otherwise you've got two notable problems. Arch Theurgs have severe old age. That means not only do you need to empower them, but unless you've got the Chalice you'll also need to spend a lot of blood slaves rejuvenating them. The second is simply the effort you need to put in if you don't have indy mages: Pythium is a strong nation anyway, and it's a lot of effort it doesn't really need.

Re: Pythium (MA) strategy
 

One of these days, I will actually finish my MA Pythium guide. In the meanwhile, I'll say there are two ways for Pythium to min-max their pretender choice:

1) Play to Strengths: which means very positive scales.

2) Counter weaknesses: which means picking up some magic diversity.

Regardless, the player should rely on Hydras and Princeps for early expansion and rush discouraging while preparing to bring out powerful communion led armies and angelic raiders, hopefully with a useful bless.

The first option is obviously best accomplished with a sleeping or imprisoned immobile pretender, such as the Oracle or the Blood Fountain.

The second option is best done with some type of rainbow chasis and allows for a lot more variability. Keep in mind Pythium only has Astral, Water, and Air Magic covered to any sufficient degree (and some tiny amount of fire).

The first is best achieved with a

Re: Pythium (MA) strategy
 

Then Pythium can also use gladiators for early expansions (by ChrisP for EA Ermor). 100-150g worth of them should be able to take a few provinces early.

Re: Pythium (MA) strategy
 

but you lose them after the first battle.

Re: Pythium (MA) strategy
 

But you can attack an extra province in the 2nd turn without a SC pretender. Their main advantage is the negligible resource cost right when you need it. That means you can take some sloth and not compromise your initial expansion.

I could get well over 20 provinces in 12 months in a test game relying mainly on one hydra party and gladiators.

The other advantage of Retarii is that they can clean out Knight/Elephant provinces.