quickness attack bonus?
 

I always thought that quickness gives a defense bonus, but not an attack bonus.

I recently noticed some units gaining both defense and attack bonusses. Their quickness was the result of the spell, not a blessing or item effect.

Is this supposed to happen?

If so, the quickness spell is a helluh of a lot better than the bless/item quickness...

Re: quickness attack bonus?
 

Water blessing gives Defense as the low-level ability and Quickness (extra action every other turn) as level 9 ability. At level 9, Water gives +4 def, at 10, +5 def.

Quickness given via the spell or from an item (it's the same effect) gives +3 attack/+3 defense, and an extra action every turn.

Heroic Quickness gives an extra action every once in a while, starting from about 10% and increasing with time. I'm not sure if it gives attack or defense bonuses, but I don't think so.

I think the confusion comes from bless quickness just giving defense, while the spell also gives attack.

Re: quickness attack bonus?
 

thanks for clarifying Endoperez!

so much for W9, guess I'll go find some water mages then..

Re: quickness attack bonus?
 

Actually, the different kinds of quickness stack. Boots and the spell are the same effect, which don't stack, but boots, bless and heroic ability can combine into something ridiculous.

Re: quickness attack bonus?
 

W9 is probably considered the best bless in the game.

Jazzepi

Re: quickness attack bonus?
 

Yep - I think so too (W9 generally being the best bless).. that's why I was a bit dissappointed to find out the quickness from bless is actually only so-so when compared to items/spell..

Re: quickness attack bonus?
 

If W9 gave units actual quickness, it would be unbelievably overpowered. And F9W9... that would just be sick...

Re: quickness attack bonus?
 

In a game right now, I have W5 thug with Heroic Quickness at +133%. From time to time he acts 5 times in row. At some point he had frost brand and stone bird, should see him clear 5 squares around him. Of course, that's against indies. Against players, he would get some other toys.

Is there a max on ability? That game is at 40+ turns, but may last 100+ turn, 60% of players are still going strong. Will this guy get +200% or something?

Re: quickness attack bonus?
 

If he stays alive, he could. If he dies, you can call him back as a mummy with the same heroic, if you have Death and can cast Ritual of Rebirth. He's probably a MA Deep King, so you might be rather short on Death, though.

Re: quickness attack bonus?
 

Best blesses in my opinion are Water and Nature, becouse both boost strongly defense and offense. Water gives defense and quickness, nature give regen and berserk. The type of sacred means you might preffer one or the other (troops with a good def to start with will like Water more, and troops with high hit points will like Nature). However, nations with good sacred mages love Earth.

Death is probably the less useful one.

Re: quickness attack bonus?
 

wait...

does W9 quickness (extra action) and spell quickness (extra action) stack to give two extra actions, or three actions a turn?

if not, then W9 bless can be awesome, but if you have a nation with W2 mages reliably available, then your better off with something else; in the long run at least. E9 to relieve the extra fatigue incurred, or F9 to give them extra damage to be multiplied by the spell quickness.

Re: quickness attack bonus?
 

W9 quickness is actually only an extra /half/ action. So with quickness you get double, with water bless you 1.5.

I'm not sure if they multiple together, or add, but I do know that they stack.

Jazzepi

Re: quickness attack bonus?
 

I think that both add to a unit's AP/turn - bless adds 50% of base AP and the spell adds +100%.

So a unit with 10 AP base would have 25 AP with both effects active. That means 2 or 3 attack actions a turn, alternating (and less if the unit has to move between attacks).

Re: quickness attack bonus?
 

I've done an experiment.

I gave a sacred unit boots of quickness, W9 bless, and cast quickness on them. Their AP was only doubled at maximum, never tripled or quadrupled. I've also had a group of blessed and quickened white ones (typically only one attack) engage an enemy, and I never observed any of them make more than two attack animations.

From this, I conclude that the extra actions are not additive; and that a 100% increase in _both_ AP and number of attacks is the maximum increase.

However, attack and defense were increased by +3 and +7, respectively. So attack and defense increase does stack.

Re: quickness attack bonus?
 

btw, AP and number of attacks are linked as attacking costs a unit its base AP score (according to the manual, at least).

Adding 100% to AP thus allows a unit to attack twice, adding 50% means a unit will attack twice every second round - although in either case, moving around can of course reduce the number of attack actions that may be taken.

Re: quickness attack bonus?
 

AP can go over doubled. From temperature effect, and from heroic ability. Because I was impressed, I replayed battle, and I know for fact that my Jarl attacked five times in a row, without enemy moving. He is showing 33 AP at rest, when his basic is 15. I have not remembered APs in battle, when he would have quickness.

No Water bless on him...

By the way, it is not all good. He gets tired much too quick. I do not SC with him, he leads an army.

Re: quickness attack bonus?
 

The natural response is a lifedrain weapon + reinvig. items.

Or is that not enough?

Re: quickness attack bonus?
 

Last opponents are almost all lifeless - statues, mandragoras, undead. +8 reinvigoration is not enough. Can you drain demons (oni) for energy? That's what he is figthing next.

Re: quickness attack bonus?
 

The key to Jarls is to get the ones that have D3 to cast soul vortex. Against most armies this provides an endless supply of free reinvig.

Jazzepi

Re: quickness attack bonus?
 

If it isn't lifeless then it can be life drained.

Re: quickness attack bonus?
 

Thanks to vfb for confirming this:


Spell quickness and bless quickness DO NOT STACK!

I don't know how long this has been the way it is, but Quickness given via the Water spells, Boots of Quickness or other items, Celestial Music of the monkey nations or whatever replaces the 50% quickness given by Water 9 bless. Bless + Quickness == 2x AP, twice the attacks/round.

I don't know how this works relative to Heroic Quickness.

Re: quickness attack bonus?
 

I tested Heroic Quickness with a Harbringer (sent 15 at an indy on a test map and got lucky).

With no equipment or bless:

Basic Action Points: 16
Heroic Ability: +98%
Current Action Points: 31


With Jade Armor:

Basic Action Points: 16
Heroic Ability: +98%
Current Action Points: 46


With just W9 Bless:

Basic Action Points: 16
Heroic Ability: +98%
Current Action Points: 46 http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/eek.gif


With W9 Bless and Jade Armor:

Basic Action Points: 16
Heroic Ability: +98%
Current Action Points: 46


So, stacking Heroic quickness with either spell quickness or W9 bless quickness works, but it is:

AP = (baseAP=16) * (1 + (heroic=.98) + (quickness=1)) Edit: wrong!

It's not base * 1.98 * 2. Edit: wrong!


For some reason spell quickness and W9 quickness give the same boost when stacked with Heroic Quickness!

Edit: No no no! KO has corrected the error of my ways, I forgot to take encumbrance into account. My next post is more correct.

Re: quickness attack bonus?
 

Thanks, vfb! So at least Heroic Quickness always stacks with other kinds of quickness. Strange that this went unnoticed for so long...

Re: quickness attack bonus?
 

Seems strange. I thought W9 gave 50% quickness. It is supposed to. Also it is an fx and not a ben. Fx's can add together. Ben's cannot. Ben's comne from items and spells. Ben's give +3att +3def.

Also AP should be lowered due to encumbrance if you have a Jade armor. Use boots and no armor instead to be certain of effects.

Re: quickness attack bonus?
 

When my indy commanders get into the Hall of Fame, I pray for Heroic Quickness. In the game I'm currently playing I have a commander with +3 experience and Heroic Quickness (+148%). I gave him the Winter Bringer wand and he casts Falling Frost 4 times a round. Of course he knocks himself out pretty quick, but for those 2 or 3 rounds he's a total powerhouse. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Re: quickness attack bonus?
 

In my test scenario I had to hit next turn a couple time, so the Harbringer is now base:

Base Action Points: 16
Heroic Ability: +108 percent
Current Action Points: 33


With boots of quickness, he is:

Current Action Points: 66


With jade armor, he is:

Current Action Points: 50


With just a bless and no armor he is:

Current Action Points: 49


Argghh ... before I had co-incidental values. Thanks for the clarification, KO! Whoops! I didn't take encumberance into account.

So the formula when spell quickness is active is actually something like <font class="small">Code:</font><hr /><pre>
CurrentAP = (BaseAP - (Enc-1) + Power) * (1 + Heroic) * 2
</pre><hr />

And when only W9 bless is active it is <font class="small">Code:</font><hr /><pre>
CurrentAP = (BaseAP - (Enc-1) + Power) * (1 + Heroic) * 1.5
</pre><hr />

Is that right? I think before the '* 2' or '* 1.5' is applied, the value is floored/truncated/converted to int.

Anyway, the W9 bless and spell quickness don't stack, but I'll keep the heavy armor off my heroic quickness guys!

Re: quickness attack bonus?
 

CAP= BAP * [1+(ben+fx)]

ben = 1 or 0, given by item or spell
Fx = incremental. Heroic starts at about .25 and bless is constant .50

I have no idea where encumbrance is added

Re: quickness attack bonus?
 

How do attacks and quickness work when you hold multiple weapons? Do you get another round of attacks with all your weapons or just one extra attack? I don't have my book on me, but how do multiple attacks work?

Say, if a Nataraja has 2 pairs of Gloves of the gladiator, horned helm, kicking boots and a stone bird. How many times does he attack? How many times would he attack if quickened?

Re: quickness attack bonus?
 

Quickness grants another action. Action may consist of moving, moving and spending the rest of your points on full attack, or full attack. Full attack means that you attack with all of your weapons. There could be spellcasting instead of the full attack.

The Nataraja would attack 4+4 (gloves) + 1 (helm) +1 (boots) +1 (bird) = 11 times/full attack. With quickness, that'd be twice the actions, so twice the full attacks, so 22 attacks.

However, it's been "known" for a long time that a single full attack can only target one battle grid, and thus maximum of one giant/titan, or 3 humans; with quickness this would be two grid squares: 2 titans or 6 human infantries. I think some people have said something to the contrary before being silenced by this "knowledge", it could be that this, too, is false and that a dozen attacks actually kill a dozen militia. It should be pretty easy to test if someone felt like (dis)proving the fact.

Re: quickness attack bonus?
 

To tie this in with KO's post above:

An 'attack action' consists of all your attacks (as listed when you right-click on a unit's attack score?), and subtracts your BAP from your Action Points for the turn). I don't think it's possible to attack with less than your full number of attacks.

The whole 'extra attack' bit really means that when your CAP value is higher than your BAP, you may have AP left after making an 'attack action'. Those can then be used to attack again (or move, or whatever).

There's a good example of AP use on page 74 of the manual.

I actually find it confusing to think in terms of Quickness granting an action rather than extra AP (a legacy of my days spent playing Laser Squad, perhaps).

Also, thinking in terms of AP rather than actions may help if you need to factor in Haste as well as Quickness.

I'm guessing here, but does casting a spell set CAP to zero instead of subtracting BAP from CAP?

Re: quickness attack bonus?
 

(1) There is no stacking of the AP bonus for bless quickness and spell quickness. Please see the attached game. Sorry, forgot to back it up and one of the nations got dom killed, so it's just the one battle to look at.

(2) Sorry, don't have a saved game for this. Testing with heroic quickness looked like:
CAP= [BAP - (enc-1) + power] * [1+(ben)] * [1+(fx)]

Re: quickness attack bonus?
 

&gt; with quickness this would be two grid squares: 2 titans or 6 human infantries. I think some people have said something to the contrary before being silenced by this "knowledge"

I have not been silenced, I know it's not true. Every turn in DangerPudding, my Jarl(W) attack 3-4 squares per round (not every round, but often) He used to do 5, but I gave him heavier armour when he started fighting oni as opposed to lifeless and could avoid fatigue. Everz (Yomi in game) can confirm. Now Jarl(W) gets 62aps per turn, with 16 base, and -2 from armour (definitely penalizes for more after multiplication)

Re: quickness attack bonus?
 

That's with increased AP, or with quickness/Heroic Quickness/whatever.

I'm talking about the number of attacks without quickness. Basically, if Nataraja with four Swords of Swiftness can kill 3 people or 8. I just tested this: a Nataraja with 7 attacks (sword of swiftness = 2, picus's axe = 2, wave breaker = 3) always killed one full grid's worth of people in one turn. Maximum killed was 3, minimum killed was 1 when the enemy was retreating.

Units CAN move and attack on the same turn. You've all seen archers move a bit closer before attacking, or cavalry moving and delivering a devastating charge that decimates the enemy force. The Nataraja of the above example moved forward and killed 3 people, so the above test also proves it.

This means that to target 3-4 squares, you'd need at least 151% Heroic Quickness and normal Quickness. You can't target 9-12 units with the above Nataraja, except if he has 151% Heroic Quickness and normal Quickness, even if he had infinite amount of attacks.

Re: quickness attack bonus?
 

I believe it is less than 151% Heroic. My Jarl has about 130% and casts 'Quicken Self'. He gets to 62 Aps, and one full attack costs 16 Aps. So he makes 3 or 4 attacks per round. Actually, from watching battle, I could swear that he attacks twice before my archers fire and then three more times (all on my turn) but I do not see how it is possible. If it was not MP, I would remove his armour and see what he does in cold province (he gets Aps from cold too)

As it is, I will post here when I learn more (until someone nails him)

Re: quickness attack bonus?
 

What's he wearing? My calculation for AP looks about right, if he's got an encumbrance 1 shield and encumbrance 1 armor:

CAP= [BAP - (enc-1) + power] * [1+(ben)] * [1+(fx)]
CAP = (16 - (4 - 1) + 0 ] * (1 + 1) * (1 + 1.3)
CAP = 13 * 2 * 2.3 = 60

Is he a little over 130% heroic? You should have +4 or +5 extra AP in a cold province, depending on how it rounds.

Re: quickness attack bonus?
 

He is level four, so encumberance is reduced by one. His armour is encumberance 2, and no shield (wraith sword). He also got +1 Ap from cold, but I do not know how it multiplies.

Your calculation looks amazing close!

Re: quickness attack bonus?
 

Nice formula, vfb! Now if we just knew all the variables...

Re: quickness attack bonus?
 

It's based on a very small set of test data, but hasn't been wrong yet. I'm especially unsure about the encumbrance, whether it's really enc-1, and what happens with enc 0. Please post if you find data that doesn't agree!

Re: quickness attack bonus?
 

Found an old turn of game.

Jarl, level 4, 16 basic APs. Heroic ability - 129%
No Cold effects, no swamp effects.
Out of combat, i.e. no quickness.

o With Ice Aegis (enc 1) and chain mail of displacement (enc 2) Total Encumberance 4. 29 APs.
o With Ice Aegis (enc 1) and full leather armour (enc 1) Total Encumberance 3. 32 APs
o With no shield and full leather armour (enc 1) Total Encumberance 2. 34 ap.

I think quickness in combat just doubles APs.


My theory for formula.

BattleAP = NormalAP * SpellMultiplier * HeroicMultiplier

NormalAP = BasicAP + ColdEffects - TerrainEffects - (EquipmentEncumberance - ExperienceBonus)
SpellMultiplier = 1.5 for Blessing, 2 for Quickness/ItemEffect
HeroicMultipler = 1 + AbilityValue

Which is exactly your formula :-) Value is rounded down.

Re: quickness attack bonus?
 

No, I forgot terrain effects! But we should probably add (spell) too, right? For Friendly Currents, at least.

NormalAP = BasicAP + PowerEffects - TerrainEffects + SpellEffects - (EquipmentEncumberance - ExperienceBonus)