lamentation for a queen
 

"
Shed a tear with me
oh heartless creatures of the night
for the queen of vampires
reduced from former glory
now a pathetic mite
"

Now seriously (since my poetry suxxs), why oh why was the V. queen punished so?
Yeah, she was over-popular back in the day when dom-II was released. I can understand nerfing her a bit (though I might have preferred a different route towards balancing her) but this?- Her cost increased, her etherealness removed (together with all poor, now worthless, vamps).

So I thought, there must some niche she could be good for and set out to experiment on different SP settings. But, for the life of me, I couldn't find any role she could fill that wasn't much better covered by an existing pretender.

Awake SC - she's an immensely expensive joke. Even with forged armor and weapons she dies quite easily to indies.
Rainbow - too expensive.
Bless - same
and so on and so forth, I tried dormant and imprisoned scales pretender, its workable but the immobiles are much better at it and less expensive and VQ doesn't really bring and worthwhile bonus even when she does wake/break free.

I suggest to return etherealness to her and to all vamps. If not etherealness then something else to make the big bad scary thingis they should be. A slight decrease to VQ price may also go well.

I wonder if CB mode has any stance on this issue.

Re: lamentation for a queen
 

yah, she was smashed with the nerf bat. If she's not ethereal, she needs to be quite a bit cheaper.

Re: lamentation for a queen
 

Hasn't intrinsic mistform been suggested? #onebattlespell finally allows for it...

Re: lamentation for a queen
 

She should at least get CHEAP magic paths. She is a former human mage, why pay 50 points for path?! And 175 cost is retarded anyway, for a low hp, low stats, undead body.

In my book, she is like MA Ulm. Moral judgement. Teutons bad, vampires bad. I won't argue.

Re: lamentation for a queen
 

VQ and indeed normal vampires should get ethereal back or be given mistform, which would be better. Currently the VQ is just a unused pretender.

I only joined with dom 3 but wasn't VQ and vampires originally nerfed by one player dominating multiplayer with them? However, that player was later found out to be cheating by altering the trn/2h files to give himself extra money, gems and whatnot. So it was a totally unfair nerf to begin with? Or is this just dominions folklore?

Re: lamentation for a queen
 

or they could be given some base protection.
many units in the game have some degree of base protection, but ethereal units almost always have none.
so i imagine when ehtereal was remoevd, they never changed the base 0 protection.
while humans may be that way, not so for vamps imho
give vamps some base prot.
i pumped vq a bunch in my greater gods mod, dunno how viable it is though, people haven't commented on it yet (maybe not played it enough yet).
i haven't played cb myself yet, so i don't know what that's done with her.

Re: lamentation for a queen
 

Vampire Queen was originally priced as a rainbow, and had rainbow paths. She was like immortal, flying Ghost King, for less than Ghost King is now, which means that she was really, really good.

She was also often used by a player who was found cheating, but she *was* good.

She can't do that any more, for a variety of reasons, but her price hasn't been adjusted.

Re: lamentation for a queen
 

She is very thematic for LA Ulm but the price is not even close to reasonable.

Re: lamentation for a queen
 

Base protection would need to be significant to help, especially with the base vampires. Commanders can be given armor, so it's less of an issue there.

The original VQ abuse was by a cheater, but I think consensus was that she was overpowered anyway. Her cost was boosted in later patches to Dom2, which most people seemed to see as a good balance.

Boosting the cost and removing etherealness in Dom3, was a huge nerf to something that wasn't really a problem anymore. Ethereal vampires in general could have used a bit of a nerf, since if you could get Vampire Lords summoning them, they'd accumulate without limits.

Re: lamentation for a queen
 

Care to elaborate?

Re: lamentation for a queen
 

I wasn't around for it, but soon enough after that it was still discussed.

Look in the Dom2 forums for Norfleet.

Re: lamentation for a queen
 

She is drastically cheaper.

The over the top round of nerfs happened long after Norfleet had disappeared.

Re: lamentation for a queen
 

Does it occur to anyone else that Ghost King is basically a playable version of VQ?

Jazzepi

Re: lamentation for a queen
 

Yes. I wish they jacked the VQ price down to around 100 or a bit less if other things stay the same, or a significant boost and less cost reduction otherwise. I love the VQ for thematics, but it isn't really viable even for single player.

Re: lamentation for a queen
 

But the discussions that led to her being toned down were during the Norfleet thing.

To summarize for the people who were not around. Norfleet cheated using 3rd party hacks to increase his gem income to astronomical levels.

Before people confirmed he was cheating, there were many different theories as to why he was good in multiplayer. These included him using Ashen Empire, the Vampire Queen and Castling.

The Vampire Queen was toned down shortly after he was nailed for cheating. It may or may not have played a role in it being toned down, but atleast, I think the attention that was drawn to the vampire queen was through his constant 'successful' use of it as a pretender.

Re: lamentation for a queen
 

no, the unbalanced nature of the VQ had nothing to do with Norfleet. He was just an obsessive power gamer, so, of course, always took the most unbalanced pretender choice.

The VQ was extremely commonly used in DomII, due to the ease at making her extremely strong vs. indies. She was properly nerfed by the end of DomII, and there was no need for a further, drastic nerf. She's now pointless.

Other "theories" as to why he was so powerful in MP were put forward by idiots with no experience of playing him.

Re: lamentation for a queen
 

I never suspected such a unanimous response against this over nerfing of the VQ (and to a lesser extent of vamps). So maybe, hopefully, IW will do something about it in a future patch.

Sounds good. I'll make some SP tests with her with CBM, just to get a feel for the price reduction impact on her viability.

Re: lamentation for a queen
 

Chill out. I was only stating one of the reasons that attention was brought to the Vampire Queen because someone asked why it was related to Norfleet.

For you to call people who play this game idiots shows your lack of character rather than their lack of intelligence. Without exception the community for this game series has been helpful, intelligent and show great maturity on these forums when compared to other gaming communities.

Even though I never posted in the Dom 2 forums, I did follow along, and I think the theories were put out there to give him the benefit of a doubt, rather than pointing the finger without hard evidence.

Spend a little time building up your self confidence instead of judging other people. If you do the former, you won't need to do the latter to feel good about yourself by comparison.

Re: lamentation for a queen
 

Norfleet always managed to fire up people's feelings. I suggest we just drop that line of discussion. We can all agree that some nerfing was needed, more nerfing happened, and Vampire Queen is too expensive for what she is ATM.

Re: lamentation for a queen
 

There are actually a lot of less than ideal pretenders. When you think about it in that context the VQ is not at all uncommon in the grand scheme. The only difference is that she was good at one point and is no longer so.

Re: lamentation for a queen
 

Some examples will be nice, but IMO VQ is not really less than ideal, its out right useless. I think for probably all of the pretenders its possible to find a scenario in which they would be useful, or cost effective. Currently, for the VQ I can't seem to find any use at all. If there is one that I'm missing then I'd truly like to know about it.

Re: lamentation for a queen
 

she makes a pretty good scout

Re: lamentation for a queen
 

There are a lot of large high HP pretenders that don't have the kind of stats or abilities that you'd want for early expansion, nor high starting paths for a bless. Just a few examples:

Lord of War
Father of Serpents
Jade Emperor
Lord of Plenty
Lady of Fortune
Celestial General
Mother of Monsters
Lord of Rebirth
etc.

I do agree with you that the VQ is currently a far worse choice than any of these. I didn't mean to argue against your point, just provide a different perspective. If you think of the VQ as the Celestial General's smaller sneakier sister, then she just becomes another pretender that you never really use but the AI seems to choose all the time.

Re: lamentation for a queen
 

That "King of War" guy with 10 encumberance or whatever is pretty crappy.

I thought I'd have to take the VQ in a game where I'm handicapped, by the other players choosing my nation and pretender chassis. Here are two ideas that sort-of work:

1) Combat VQ. Death-5 gives fear, Awe-2 for defense, and immortality in case it doesn't work. Could fly-sneak onto an enemy capitol for Dom kill, but risky with Stealth 0, 'cause her immortality won't save her if she's found.

Awake
Death 5 Blood 3
Dominion 10
Turmoil 3 Sloth 3 Cold 1 Fortune 3 Drain 2


2) Blood Hunt. Imprison and take good scales, non-blood nation, and use her to start getting you into blood sometime.

Imprisoned
Death 1 Blood 2
Dominion 6
Order 3 Productivity 2 Growth 2 Fortune 3 Drain 2

Re: lamentation for a queen
 

I've actually chosen Father of Serpents for MP. I wanted to go for Entchantment, race for Gift of Health, and decided to pursue Nat/Death. He was the best choice for it (about N5D5, dom 7-8 or so, mediocre scales). I was quite annoyed at having to pay so much for a chassis which isn't that much better than various other choices, but it was best for what I wanted.

Re: lamentation for a queen
 

I agree with what a lot of people have said about the cost being lowered. I think her abilities should mirror the other vampires, just lower her cost to reflect the changes that were brought on after the cost raising (Or did the etherealness get taken away when she was originally nerfed? I can't remember.)

Re: lamentation for a queen
 

Unfortunately many of the pretender choices are overpriced - the VQ is just the best (and most drastic) example.

Re: lamentation for a queen
 

The first round, yes. However that round of discussion and nerfing happened during the dom2 patches, and general consensus was that she was still viable then. It was only much later in the stretch between dom2 and dom3 that she became a truly poor choice, losing ethereal and gaining still more cost.

Re: lamentation for a queen
 

I agree with your point about less than ideal pretenders. I'm glad (or rather sad) we both agree that the VQ is the worst in the list.

As for the titan pretenders, they cost less than VQ, have higher starting dominion, are not undead (immune to undead spells, banish), are size 6 (immune to trample) so they are much better cost-effective wise than VQ. Also, some of the pretenders in your list also have magic cost path lower than that of VQ (IIRC mother of monsters is one example)

The father of serpents has a valid role as a rainbow mage, a category there's just no way the VQ can fit.

Re: lamentation for a queen
 

And how much does this build cost?- Compare it the a POD or Wyrm or virtue. Is it really viable next to those?

Blood hunt, FoB is *much* better hunter and cheaper and has better dominion.

My point is not that VQ is on itself useless, its useless when compared to existing pretenders. There's no niche for her. In every possible category there are some pretenders that are better and cheaper than her.

Re: lamentation for a queen
 

Oh no, these aren't builds I want to do!

If I had to do a VQ build, because of handicap rules in an MP game, I think those are a couple of VQ options that would be somewhat playable. Luckily, in the game where I couldn't choose my nation or pretender chassis, I got given a Phoenix instead. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

I totally agree with you that the VQ is the most overpriced of all pretenders.

Re: lamentation for a queen
 

Serpent King is the rainbow, Father of Serpents is a titan.

Everything in your post still applies, just thought to point it out.

Re: lamentation for a queen
 

You're right. Thanks for correcting my confusion.

vfb, I now understand your point about VQ. I think If I had to choose her I would probably make her an imprisoned scales god. At least some good will come out of it http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Re: lamentation for a queen
 

As I said, the VQ is so broken she's not viable even in SP really. Father of Serpents and many of the other titans could also use the price drop, because outside of a few specialty roles that you very rarely need, they are useless.

Re: lamentation for a queen
 

I completely agree

Re: lamentation for a queen
 

I think the vampire queen should have classic vampire powers: she should be able to turn into a wolf, a bat, possibly a combat version, giant rat-woman. None of her forms need to be hideously strong, just versatile and purposeful. She should get inherant mistform while in human form, and she should have Fear and Animal Fear. Maybe even a dose of Awe, ala Salma Hayek in From Dusk Till Dawn http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif Magic should definitely be reduced to 40 path. Then she'd be worth the 175.

Re: lamentation for a queen
 

Starting magic paths of A1D1B2 would give the VQ access to Air Shield and Mistform for combat, and maybe help justify the high base chassis cost. Higher starting dominion would make a Dom 9 or 10 Awe boost more affordable too.

HB's suggestion about intrinsic Awe or Fear would also do much to make her more usable. I also think that most vampire lit/movies includes both fear and awe attributes for vampires.

And I agree, Salma Hayek is Awesome in anything http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif.

Re: lamentation for a queen
 

It's just so bizarre having gone through the era of crazy VQs to see people grasping at straws to boost her. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Personally, I'd say the most sensible boost after just lower base cost would be lower path cost, afterall she was once pathcost 20.

Re: lamentation for a queen
 

I think everything suggested here towards boosting the VQ can work. Be it lower price, lower path cost, add additional start path (like air), ethreal back, fear, awe. Maybe CBM can also reduce her path cost to make her affordable for her price. And maybe, hopefully, IW will give some loving to the VQ and Vamps in general in one of the next patches.

What I have in mind is not making VQ a no brainer choice like in early dom-II, far from it - What I would like is for VQ to be a viable choice for a pretender which she currently isn't and for vamps to be thematical, which means bad-*** monsters and not laughable chaff they have become.

Re: lamentation for a queen
 

I didn't mean to imply they were bad ideas being suggested. Just that there is an understandable tendency towards the more exotic and interesting changes, rather than those straightforward and unlikely to cause thematic or balance difficulties.

Re: lamentation for a queen
 

Kissblade says it´s competitively. At least with Patala.