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Haida Gwaii Complete! version 3.0 (lots of changes)
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Version 3.0 of Haida Gwaii!
Recently I decided to revisit Haida Gwaii to take advantage of all the new mod commands put into the game. My knowledge of the game in general has also increased over the past couple of years, so I did some balance changes as well. The nation shouldn't play like MA Man's big brother anymore, but the changes aren't enough to steer away from the original theme of the nation. You can employ various strategies including a bless, stealth raiding and water raiding. I hope you enjoy the changes, this should be the last version of this mod, unless i do changes for bug fixes or typos. This version contains the following major changes: -The sacred animals are no longer recruitable, they have become summons. -Frenzied Moksgmol is now ethereal. -Thunderbirds are immortal. -New killer whale sacred summon -Sgaana Warriors, Tyee and Shaman get waterform -Sgaana Archer replaced with Eagle Archer -Forest King eliminated -Mother Bear's healing % increased -Lady Hanging Hair has more path diversity now -No more slaves -Eliminated Toad Tribe -Sgaana Tyee now has water and holy magic -Bear Tyee has e/n and darkvision -Coyote Mother changed to 2n/1s -Kachina summons only one thunderbird a turn now -Sgaana Shaman is more magically diverse now -Eagle Talon is more magically diverse now -Added Raven Archer, stealthy archer -Added Raven Warrior, stealthy light warrior -Added Bear Warrior, regening, recuping dual wielder -Slightly altered Crest Pole graphic -Slightly altered Great Raven graphic -Reduced number of starting troops -Added shallow water fort -Changed forts, starting fort gives more admin -Altered most spell costs -Reduced number of units per point of PD -Fish Carver has underwater form -Raven Scout has air magic now, and very slight chance for death. -Changed the nation flag to tribal killer whale symbol. Enjoy! ----------------------------------------------------------------- Haida Gwaii has been revamped with new changes that reflect the modding capabilities of the latest patches. Enough changes have been made to make the mod more enjoyable and balanced. Below is the list of changes since the original version of the mod. The new mod is attached to this post. Enjoy http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif Version 2.0 (Lots of Changes) -Haida Gwaii is now slotted to nation 82. This eliminates conflict with Late Pythium. -Haida Gwaii has a new starting fort with slightly higher admin and defense. -Most Haida human units hit points reduced. -Many descriptions have been changed to reflect mod changes. -New recruitable Raven unit. -New recruitable Sgaana Harpoon Warrior. -Name change on one version Sgaana Warrior to Sgaana Atlatl Warrior. -Coyote stealth improved, now causes unrest. -Coyote life expectancy reduced. -Coyote no longer a "Magic Being". -Frenzied Moksgmol no longer a "Magic Being". -Wild Turkey no longer a "Magic Being". -New attack animation for Thunderbird (Spring Hawk Animation) -Raven Scout can now lead troops. -Raven Scout now sacred (This makes all Haida Commanders sacred). -Raven Scout fights with "Claws" instead of two "Claw" weapons. -Raven Scout life expectancy a bit higher. -Sgaana Tyee now can lead 80 units. -Sgaana Tyees incredible life expectancy has been reduced. -Sganna Tyee can gather slaves to fight for Haida Gwaii (Summon Allies). -Bear Tyee has a chance for Nature and Earth magic. -Bear Tyee has increased price, lowered leadership. -Bear Tyee can gather slaves to fight for Haida Gwaii (Summon Allies). -Coyote Mother now has a chance to get astral magic. -Coyote Mother price slightly increased. -Kachina has a new graphic. -Kachina has storm power. -Kachina has fist weapon instead of lightning swarm. -Kachina no longer a "Magical Being". -Kachina can summon one extra thunderbird a turn (Summon Allies). -Kachina price slightly increased. -Voice of the Killer Whales research bonus reduced. -Voice of the Killer Whales has lost some of his holy power. -Eagle Talon has lost some of his holy power. -New Hero "Voice of the Heavens" added. -Lord of Rebirth eliminated as pretender choice. -Lord of the Forest eliminated as a pretender choice. -Raven Pretender name changed to "Great Raven". Version 1.2 A new version of Haida Gwaii is now available. This version contains the following changes: -New graphics for nearly all the units. The only units that did not receive graphics are a few of the animals and the two Toad Tribe units. -Very minor stat adjustments to some units -Age adjustments to most the units to reflect the longer lifespans of the Haida people when compared to other humans. -Armor and weapon adjustments to represent the new graphics. -Raven has been beefed up considerably and can now be used as a solid thug with the right magic picks. Version 1.1 Changes: -Made mod compatible with 3.08 -Atlatl ammo reduced to 4 (They still fire every round) -Coyote Mother loses kick attack -Coyote Mother cost increased |
Re: Haida Gwaii 2.0 (lots of changes)
I'll update the mod list entry and give this a go today. It sounds like good times.
Did you sort out the odd attacks the coyote had? (it was claw claw no bite or something). |
Re: Haida Gwaii 2.0 (lots of changes)
Oops, double post.
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Re: Haida Gwaii 2.0 (lots of changes)
Couple of quick questions;
Why do coyotes have 3 attacks, claws+bite? It seems like a coyote would probably just bite and at most have 1 extra claw attack (even that seems a stretch, they aren't clawed animals afaik). Why do Haida start with 40 troops in their starting army? Most nations have about 20. In the coyote description it says they increase turmoil. I assume this means unrest. It might be a little bit misleading for some people though, with turmoil and unrest being quite different in dom3. |
Re: Haida Gwaii 2.0 (lots of changes)
Sombre, thanks for taking the time to look over the units and such! Your feedback is greatly appreciated.
Originally, Haida Gwaii had 40 because the units that composed the starting force had pathetic gear compared to most other nations, and the force performed at a level of 30 units that a lot of other nations have. Over the patches one of the units received a significant upgrade to armor, so now it is a stronger force of 40. I don't think I am going to change it, and instead tout it as an advantage of this nation, and a very trivial one at that since a lot of nations have 30 starting units. The coyote originally had just a "bite", testing the unit revealed that + low stats was pretty terrible. Cost was reduced and the new attacks added to try to make the unit more desirable. I suppose I could take the claw attacks away, and reduce the price further and/or maybe upgrade some of the stats. Good catch on turmoil instead of unrest, was the wrong choice of words, I will change it in the next edition, as well as consider some coyote changes, if I get anymore feedback. |
New version coming soon!
To Do List:
Unit numbers changed to buffer vanilla unit increase (done) Low Level Unique Summon (Pending Patch) Poor Amphibian + Water Shape for Sgaana units. Armor/cost changes for Sgaana. (Pending Patch) Minor tweaks to coyote (Along the lines of what Sombre mentioned), Possible summon spell to mass new weaker coyotes. Orca Summon (Sacred) Test Immortality on Thunderbirds with stat/cost changes. Possibly eliminate Kachina "Summon Ally" |
Re: Haida Gwaii 2.0 (lots of changes)
If you're still interested, Foodstamp, I finally figured out a workable (and fairly thematic) way for Haida to get a grey whale Pretender: They could start with an immobile whale totem-I believe you're already using totem poles as Pretenders?-that then has a waterform that transforms it into a grey whale SC. It would have to be teleported, ofcourse, but that would be a useful balance against a relatively powerful SC chassis. On land, with access to water/astral paths, it could still teleport around and cast spells in relative safety-immobile Pretenders are difficult to destroy-but then, in the water, it would come into it's own.
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Re: Haida Gwaii 2.0 (lots of changes)
That's an interesting idea. I will see what I can do :).
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Re: Haida Gwaii 2.0 (lots of changes)
Hey,
I've been trying out this mod recently, but I whenever I do I get a Nagot gick fel! everytime on the first turn. Does anyone know what causes this?:confused: Also, the Sgaana harpoon warriors start out in their 80s. Is this related to the problem above? Tonight I think I'm gonna try to edit out the harpoon warriors and see if that makes the mod work. And fyi, I did try to run it with only the Haida Gwaii mod active. It still ngf'ed. Technowolf |
Re: Haida Gwaii 2.0 (lots of changes)
Turns out that, yes, the Harpoon Warriors are the reason the mod crashes the game. It appears they share a unitid with another (vanilla) unit, but I don't know which. The harpooners unitid is 2501 iirc, which should be above the current number of vanilla units. I'll do a few more tests tonight and get the results to you all tomorrow.
Technowolf |
Re: Haida Gwaii 2.0 (lots of changes)
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Re: Haida Gwaii Complete! version 3.0 (lots of changes)
Mod has been updated. There should be no more conflict with vanilla unit #s over 2000. Lots of other changes have happened over the past year, be sure to check them out on the first post. That is where you can download the mod as well. :)
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Re: Haida Gwaii Complete! version 3.0 (lots of changes)
Glad to see the update! Looking at Haida Gwaii helped me figure out how to begin with Alchera, especially in terms of how to make a Dom 3 nation out of a historically non-imperial people - really, I need to give you a credit in the next version.
Sometime, we should play them against each other (maybe 1st get someone else to judge their relative balance. Thanks! |
Re: Haida Gwaii Complete! version 3.0 (lots of changes)
Right on! Several people learned some modding from Haida Gwaii, including me. I am always up for a friendly game although my schedule is a bit limited. I have been keeping tabs on Alchera and I am looking forward to trying it out soon :).
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Re: Haida Gwaii Complete! version 3.0 (lots of changes)
Just so you know, The Raven Archers are called Eagle Archers for some reason. Also, what does harpooning do?
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Re: Haida Gwaii Complete! version 3.0 (lots of changes)
Ah good catch, it is because I used the Eagle archer as the stat base when making the Raven Archer. I will post the updated version this afternoon. Harpooning works much like the net ability, but it does it at range.
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Re: Haida Gwaii Complete! version 3.0 (lots of changes)
Minor change, Raven Archer name has been corrected. You can find the latest version attached to the first post.
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Re: Haida Gwaii Complete! version 3.0 (lots of changes)
Thanks for this mod, Foodstamp. I very much like the theme and will be playing them in the Tourmaline game.
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Re: Haida Gwaii Complete! version 3.0 (lots of changes)
Awesome! I hope you do well. Remember you should have an easy time getting into the water. Haida Gwaii is pretty close to vanilla, so you may need to pull out all the stops to survive in an all mod game. :). Diplomacy and being the first guy in the water should help.
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Re: Haida Gwaii Complete! version 3.0 (lots of changes)
I'd actually say most mod nations (that people play in MP) are weaker than haida gwaii.
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Re: Haida Gwaii Complete! version 3.0 (lots of changes)
That surprises me. I would think minimal to no access to death/astral/blood would put the nation at a disadvantage, especially late game. I've always thought of the nation as being strong early to early mid game, excelling at early expansion and battle magic until SCs hit the scene, kinda like MA Man.
Admittedly, I haven't played many mod nations, so I am not sure how the ones for MP are specced out, but I would be really surprised if they didn't shine better in certain places, especially if they have access to the important MP magic paths I listed before. |
Re: Haida Gwaii Complete! version 3.0 (lots of changes)
Hello Foodstamp,
Giving your nation a go and I though I'd give a few quick observation. The nation has easy access to stealthy troops but no commanders to lead those troops. The stealthy commanders have only leadership 10 which will suffice only for 1 PD provinces sadly. There's always the option of giving magic item leadership boosts, but the nation has no access to death for the rod of the leper king, and only access to S1 (with no nation astral gem income), thus making it hard to forge crown of command for this purpose, even for those who'd consider this option since forging items for this purpose is wasteful.. I suggest boosting leadership to 40 for one of the stealthy commanders. Stealthy troops seem rather unusable given the current state. And second, Thunderbirds. At first they seemed awesome to me. Sacred, stormflyers, immortal, even their price seemed great cause of the added number due to magic path however they are a huge disappointment. They have terrible stats and no protection, any single hit kills them. Eventually after dozens of battles they'd get some extra attack and defence due to immortality but that's not enough. They have higher somewhat strength but a no strength attack which is quite weak, so they can't kill anything in the first (and only) round they live. They are sacred, but a bless approach is a bad way to go for them. The nation has no need for a bless given the lack of sacred troops and the only bless that seems viable for them is a water bless which is contradictory to your bears given their berserk. So bless is not an option either. At first I thought I'd abuse them with having an A9 pretender spamming them from the start, but given that 40 thunderbirds lose easily to militia I'd say even that is a bad option. So IMO, they are extremely overpriced at 12 for 2+ ( they're not worth even summoning with a boosted mage or a high level pretender) and have quite terrible stats. Just compare them to vampires. High strenght with a drain attack, fliers, regeneration, more than double HP. Vampires are even cheaper than Thunderbirds, incredibly better, stronger, better stats and much more easily massed. I can provide more feedback as I go along, these is just something I noticed first. |
Re: Haida Gwaii Complete! version 3.0 (lots of changes)
Executor, I played Haida Gwaii in the Tourmaline game a couple of years ago. Below is a troop summary I sent over to Foodstamp as early feedback when I was testing builds (didn't post it in the forums since the game was in progress and then I forgot to post it later).
Though I didn't take a heavy bless I did become too distracted with focusing on Thunderbirds. Like you say, they aren't nearly as good as vampires. I never considered summoning them as they are too expensive but Kachinas can summon one per turn. Of course there's an opportunity cost so you'll have to choose how many you want summoning Thunderbirds. Once you finish research you can easily summons dozens per turn but at that stage there's plenty of counters to them. Offhand I'd say it might be good to remove the Kachina's ability to summon Thunderbirds but make the summon Thunderbird spell a better deal and also make them more effective in battle. Btw, probably the easiest way to boost leadership on Haida Gwaii's commanders is a whip of command. Foodstamp, I really like the theme of this nation and it would be great to see it fine-tuned. |
Re: Haida Gwaii Complete! version 3.0 (lots of changes)
UNIT OVERVIEW
Raven: these fueled my expansion. They are kind of like harpies ... but much better. Twice the hit points, much better morale and attack and with a strength of 12 and two attacks they can do respectable damage to lightly armored troops. With a resource cost of 1 you can mass these much quicker than any of your other melee troops. The thing that really helps them is that flight gives them the first strike against their opponents. Within the first two rounds of combat they frequently inflict enough losses to cause routing (again, against lightly armored opponents). I found though that if they don't do a lot of damage quickly their low protection will put them in a bad situation. Basically I rely on numerical superiority with these guys. Bear Warrior - When I first looked at these I was impressed with their regeneration, two attacks per round and recuperation. If they were sacred I probably would have gone for a major bless. But as it is, I didn't use them much in expansion. On a gold basis I can get 50% more Ravens than Bear Warriors. Since I actually found resources to be a limiting factor the multiple was much larger. I think they will have a role, though - they seem like a unit that can benefit greatly from buffs like strength of giants, legions of steel and protection. During initial expansion I think they are best suited for handling higher protection opponents that might cause Ravens problems. Sgaana Warriors - I didn't border water so I couldn't make use of their real talent. However my starting army performed respectably. The main reason I didn't make more use of them is their resource cost. I took Sloth 1 and I could just get Ravens in bulk much quicker. Having said that, I'm interested in running some more tests with them. The Atlatl's have an ammunition of 4 and decent range to boot. Tossing strength of giants on a group of these would seem to make for some powerful missile fire... I'm not sure how harpoon mechanics work but if they can handle large targets it seems like there's potential to break up trampling formations or keep elite units still long enough for melee troops to do some damage. Raven Warriors - Stealthy and have some protection but I'd much prefer Ravens for stealth work. I don't think I'll use these. Eagle Archers and Raven Archers - Eagle archers have good precision but I think I'd go for Raven Archers since the stealth can make for a nice surprise for an unwary opponent. If I get some fire mages then I'll definitely be using these. Raven Scout - continuing my Raven obsession I have to say this is an awesome unit. I love flying scouts but a flying scout with Stealth 20, leadership 10, and A1 with a chance at D1 (a path you otherwise don't have access to)? Heck, yes! In addition to providing a cheap sacred researcher at 60 gold, I thought of some fun ideas to test with these guys. Give one a barkskin amulet and air gem and have them cast mistform and then try to take out very low level PD. Or maybe give them skull talismans and have a couple cast air shield and then summon skeletons to take out low level PD. Used in combination with a mage casting Storm they can cast summon storm power and then cast lightning bolts. Great unit. Sgaana Tyee - Another excellent unit. Can lead large numbers of troops, sail, and is amphibious. Given the low leadership on most of your mages this will be your standard leader. BTW, I ran some tests trying to thug out their killer whale water form and was disappointed. I don't think they are meant for thugging. Bear Tyee - Your only access to earth, this is a crucial unit for buffing troops and getting an initial earth gem income going. Though not solo operators they seem like they can have potential as mini-thugs inside armies. E1N1 will buff them nicely and with recuperation they can get experience without being crippled. Also are decent leaders. Coyote Mother - As the Bear Tyee gives you your only E access, the Coyote Mother gives you your only S access. A few thoughts come to mind: communions, forging moonvine bracelets, stealthy thugging and feebleminding mind hunters who go after your thugs. Also, having them cast magic duel to take out enemy astral mages. Another very useful unit. Kachina - This is your bread-and-butter mage. Half have A3 (thunderstrike spam!), half have N1 (thug potential). Something I didn't realize at first is that Kachina can summon one Thunderbird per round. While there's an opportunity cost in lost research it does save gems and once research is completed you can have dozens of Kachina's summoning huge numbers of Thunderbirds. Voice of the Killer Whales - Recruit these if you want to throw down some falling frost or high level water spells. All of them can clam out of the box and if you are not in a non-gem generator game you will want to do this. 1 of 3 can cast bone melter; the others can cast it with a thistle mace. Foul vapors is also an option. Eagle Talon - 1 of 3 will have A4 to forge A boosters. A4's are also useful for casting things like Fog Warriors without a booster. |
Re: Haida Gwaii Complete! version 3.0 (lots of changes)
Thanks Valerius,
The nation has a lot of interesting possibilities and build. At first look I thought that the national units were meh and kinda Mictlan like, but they are extremely good actually. The harpooning infantry seems really good, and so far I'm loving them the most. They can certainly stop or slow a charge sufficiently enough for the archers (which are quite nice :) ) to take them out. Bear warriors are expensive and die too easily due to very low defense (even with regeneration), so I wouldn't consider using them too much, but they seem perfect for buffing (strength of giants, quickness) and dealing with tougher, heavily protected troops. Ravens are splendid. I doubt anyone would dare use archers when you bring these to the battle. From what I tested a small amount of ravens can tear enemy archers apart, and hopefully some unlucky mage too. Raven warriors seem rather fragile. Medium infantry with no shields meaning that any sort of ranged weapon will kill them, hence you must use them in numbers if you are to sneak capture enemy provinces, but you can't since the stealthy leaders aren't adequate. If there was a better leader I'd use them, but given the fact that you need to use at least a vine whip on a mage to lead them, they seem unusable to me. And using them for regular armies seems silly to me. Now the archers, stealthy vs high precision archer? I think I'd use stealthy more over the regular due to short range mostly. Short bows can be easily countered with just some good battle formation, they fall out of rank, start chasing the enemy forward while the rest of the army sits, etc. So raven archers might be a better choice since they enemy might not see them coming, not that eagle archers are bad, they are great for their price, about same as those white amazon archers right? Now, there's one thing in particular that caught my eye, the bear summons. 2+ for 12 gems, sacred, ethereal, high HP, regeneration, trample! And they're only level 1. So, no doubt about this, I'd spend every single one of my nature gems on these pets. The best option seems to take a heavy nature pretender so get more, and go straight for mother oak to boost your nature income. Than you trample everything... :) Still checking the mages, they seem good, cheap researchers but I'm not sure who to use as my main research force. I'm interested to know which one you used the most? |
Re: Haida Gwaii Complete! version 3.0 (lots of changes)
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The archers are ok but with the exception of the stealthy raven archers I don't know that I'd recruit them over indie tribal archers. I wonder if it would be thematic to give at least the ravens forest survival? The only unit I don't think I'd ever use are the raven warriors. Even if Haida Gwaii had a stealthy commander that could lead large numbers of troops I'd prefer to use ravens. I was also disappointed that I didn't come up with a way to use the bear warriors effectively. But I think that was partly due to the circumstances of the game. They don't fare well without buffs and I was at peace for a long time (clamming of course) so by the time they could be buffed it was already late game. Still, like you say, it's not a bad troop lineup. But it's not as exciting to me as the commander lineup - each of whom I find interesting and can find uses for. Quote:
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But thinking it over, with my Magic 1 scales I could have gotten over double the research that each kachina provided by using that gold for ravens instead. So I don't think that many kachinas is optimal. Though in fact my research wasn't bad and I see the Chalice in my inventory which iirc was from forging, not wishing for it (I think I was also helped in this by most other nations getting involved in early wars). |
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