New Finnish OOB
 

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Re: New Finnish OOB
 

Wow, thanks a lot Zipuli:)!!! I must check this "mod" right now...

Re: New Finnish OOB
 

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Re: New Finnish OOB
 

I had a peak to see what you had done because it seems every Finn interested in SP has had a hand in modifying the MBT and WW2 Finn OOBs at one time or another. I'm starting to think it's a national pastime http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

I'm just curious. This is the standard rank series

Private
PFC or L/Cpl
Corporal
Sergeant
2nd Lt.
1st Lt.
Captain
Major
Lt. Col.
Colonel
General

that's the order the game uses to assign leaders in the game.

Now...... NOBODY but another Finn ( and me ) would notice this

Sotamies
Korpr.
Alik.
Kers.
Vanrikki
Ltn.
Ylil.
Kapteeni
Majuri
EvLtn.
Eversti

.....but why did you make the "Captain" a 1st Lt, the "Major" a Captain, the "Lt Col" a Major, the "Colonel" a Lt Col and the "General" a Colonel ?

Don

Re: New Finnish OOB
 

Yeah, it's a national pastime. Something with the Finns and the turn-based wargames I guess... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

I changed the tanks to get correct leader ranks in correct formations. It's because we added one rank extra compared to "the norm" back in the day (which will be removed from use in near future). We added a rank called in english "senior lieutenant", which is bewteen a lt. and cpt.

Due to this new rank, the basic leaders for formations are (using translations here):

Corporal (Alik.) = Section
2nd Lt. (Vänrikki) = platoon
Lieutenant (Ltn.) = platoon-company
Senior Lieutenant (Ylil.) = company
Captain = battalion
Major = battalion-battlegroup
etc.

So, because of this I did not put the ranks as high as general and generals in the Finnish system don't command anything we would see in SPMBT. So it's not in line with the basic US/such rank file for that reason. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

I hope I made sense there,

Zip

Re: New Finnish OOB
 

Please if you find bugs etc. do tell, and I get them fixed...

so far I fixed/added/changed following:
-ITO 96 Buk is no longer areal SAM, but SP-SAM (icon fixed), and has its own formations in misc. section
-BTR-60PB dates corrected (formations also)
-MLRS with ATACMS (M39) fixed (ammo quantity + type from HE-> CM)
-APILAS expire dates fixed (don't know when that will happen, but I use the guess of 2013...)
-to replace the APILAS I have added a "what if" AT weapon, the AT-4HP (Swedish pskott m/86HP) as NLAWs will most likely not be numerous enough to equip more than the operational units (which leaves only some 250000 to equip http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif)
-AT-4 patrols and Urban/PzJaegers with AT-4 added as options
-added Super Puma chopper (used by the border guard, 3 in use)
-fixed AB206 dates (goes now up to 2010)
-added 95 S 58-61 Musti unit with LRF (handheld) from 2000 ->
-SPAA platoons (2/3) expired the wrong way round... SPAA Plt/3 now lasts untill 2020, while SPAA Plt/2 goes to history in 2007...
-122 Rakh 89 now has double the ammunition as it should as the vehicle has 2 salvos, 1 ready to fire and second one carried by the vehicle itself and changed quickly by a hydraulic reload device
-Off-map AMOS ROF from 12->15
-new pictures: ITO 2005 (better one), Rann-Ohj 06, MLRS with ATACMS, Super Puma, AB206, AT-4, Rakh 89 platoon)
-added some 40 text files

New version released when enough testing and bug hunting is done.

EDIT:
-Landsverk Anti II icon changed to appropriate one
-Added 7.62 RK +Optics -weapon (represents RK 62 and 95 models with added optical equipment) - main users being Urban Jaegers, some later Paratroopers and Special Jaegers (other troops also use extra optics, but they are dispersed so that in section 1 guy may have extra optics, so the original iron sight weapon is more appropriate here!)
-"reserve company" (representing all those ad-hoc units like Artillery Bn's "torjuntaosasto" etc.) organization changed (HMGs removed prior to NSV)

Zip

Re: New Finnish OOB
 

^^ Hey Zipuli, but how about brigade generals;)...

Sorry, this is not SP3:)!

Re: New Finnish OOB
 

Good work there Zipuli! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Hey do the AI know how to use this also or is it just for human play?

One thing you can fix is the icon for the Landsverk AA tank it still uses in your version the US wolverine TD icon when in the official 3.5 version it has its own neat icon number 2582.
Your LBM for the landsverk however is correct while in the official 3.5 version it uses some strange picture which is not Landsverk Anti http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...es/redface.gif !

Heh maybe the devs should change the unit LBM picture for the next patch to use the picture you have for it? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Re: New Finnish OOB
 

Oh thanks for the tip - as always I did search the default OOB for any icons (like the AMOS), but missed that one!

The AI "picklist" is not finished yet for this mod, so the AI will buy quite funny stuff at times http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...ies/tongue.gif

Zip

Re: New Finnish OOB
 

Not sure if it's something with my Russian OOB or not but most of the units in the scenarios with the Russians/Soviets are not displayed correctly. For example mech squads show up as tanks, etc. I looked in Mobhack and the correct icons are assigned to infantry. Is anyone else having this issue?

BTW
I really like the Finnish OOB. Thanks

Re: New Finnish OOB
 

cbreedon using the modified Finnish oob should not affect in any way your russian oob.

Re: New Finnish OOB
 

These are just wery little things, but I thought Id mention them anyway... Dont take any stress from this! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

The T-26E vickers should have a Suomi BMG, that is the English vickers that got it's crew increased to 4 and the 37mm bofors replaced whit the soviet 45mm gun (well the gun change actualy happened after winterwar). The no. 4 crew man was added already when those vickers tanks came to Finland in 1938-1939.

They were originaly meant to have a custom engine (and shipped to Bulgaria IIRC), that changed the turret to be offset to the right to give room for bigger side mounted engine. But since they were refitted whit the standard size engine and sold to Finland instead, Finns used the extra space on the left hull on these modified Vickers tank hulls to add that fourth guy and a Suomi BMG as hes arnament on a fixed mount of domestic design.

T-26 m 1939 should have a DT bmg not suomi BMG, that is the OT-133 modified to be gun tank and fourth crew member added whit a fixed DT BMG mount. Same thing basicaly as whit the Vickers tank, but for a different reason. The OT-133 (and OT-130) had it's turret offset to the right to give room for flame fuel tanks on the left hull. Finns removed those and put a fourth crew man there. Also the flamer was removed and replaced whit a DT cmg and 45mm gun in the turret converting these flame tanks into gun tanks. Whit better availability of captured stuff now they added the DT bmg instead of the Suomi SMG as hull arnament.

These modified T-26 and vickers tanks are unique for the Finns (well ofcourse not all captured T-26 tanks were modified this way in finnish use just the OT-flamethrower ones). Normal Soviet T-26 had 3 man crew and no bmg. There are pictures of finnish modified 4 man OT-130 and OT-133 below:

OT-130 FINN MOD:
http://rkkaww2.armchairgeneral.com/g...6/2/T_26_1.jpg

OT-133 FINN MOD:
http://rkkaww2.armchairgeneral.com/g...3/T_26con1.jpg

And here is a normal Soviet T-26 for referance so you see the horn and also the headlight on the front hull, but no BMG mount. This particular one also has additional lights on the turret for night fighting use.
http://rkkaww2.armchairgeneral.com/g...26M35RT_3b.jpg

Btw. Only difference between the OT-130 and OT-133 was that the 133 had a sloped turret.


Wow quite a long text for simple thing really, hope you can make sence of it. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

SPWW2 fin oob has these pretty much correct so you can look there for better referance if you like.

Re: New Finnish OOB
 

Are the scenarios using a custom Russian OOB then?
edit
Evidently it was me. I replaced my Russian OOB with the one in the default folder and presto. It worked. Funny I don't remember ever playing around with the Russian one...

BTW
Thanks for all the work on the Finnish OOB. It looks great!

Re: New Finnish OOB
 

Let me guess, you installed the Russian third party Modified OOB that we specifically warned people would totally bugger up their scenarios.

Does that sound like the problem?

Don

Re: New Finnish OOB
 

Zipuli

I just played your Leopards on the Prowl scenario. It was fun. I ended with a marginal victory.. very close to decisive.. I got too cocky at the end with my Leo's and loss one and had two immobilised.. Fun none the less. Kiitos

Re: New Finnish OOB
 

LonelyRider,

I will check that info and edit if needed - I have no reason to not believe that info you gave is incorrect (especially the number of crew, that one I noticed as well now that you noticed it!), but just to make sure http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Zip

PS. I may try to "defaultize" my OOB (if time/interest permits) so that when loading a scenario with old OOB used, it would work normally - which is NOT the case at the moment.

Re: New Finnish OOB
 

Yeah it was something of a mystery to me before too http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

About the sources:
Firstly the book - Suomalaiset Panssarivaunut 1918-1997 (toinen laitos 2003)

Secondly I eyeballed the Vickers 6-ton and the gun tank converted OT-133 at the parola armored museum last summer. And surely enough both had the fourth crew man whit a bow mg mount (suomi for vickers and DT for OT-133). http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

Re: New Finnish OOB *DELETED*
 

Post deleted by LonelyRider

Re: New Finnish OOB
 

Thanks, got that same book too, in addition to the piles of others, and I did use it to check data, but... ah well http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...ies/tongue.gif I am sure that's not the only little detail I missed, so keep 'em coming as you find them!

PS. EDITED:
T-72M1 icon -> 2673 (no fuel tanks, tho no camo either)
BT-42, T-28 icon -> correct ones
T-54/55 -> winter icon
BMP-1TJJ -> ROF 7 (same as BMP-1!), BMP-1TJ carry 5
Itpsv 90 ammo load now 20 HE, 2 Sabot
152mm howitzers (except H 55) removed from use around 2010 (swimming in same pots as BMP-1s etc. Soviet stuff)
APILAS expire date no longer a guess - I let them be there till 2020 (we will know one day anyways...)
T-26 data, see previous page, post by LR
added NSV armed Masi/Rasi 1992->
Removed "dead" stats (FC/Stab) from helos with no weapons and prices dropped, yippee!
Added BA-20M picture
XA-203 FC = 10 for all XA-203's
AMV APC now has fully stabilized (5) weapon, as it should be
Some formation corrections
Added Mech FO's (the ones that move with BMP-1TJ) with 3 men, BMP-1TJ carry = 3...

Following data in the OOB is speculation (/not 100% sure yet - tho the ideas are not from thin air either (NLAW speculation anyone?)):
-Leopard 2A5FIN (2A4's will most likely be upgraded sometime, but into...?)
-84 RsKES AT-4HP (APILAS is at the end of its road, but what will replace it, will it be replaced in the end?)
-66 KES 2010 (M72E-9 LAW, improved penetration, Finnish company owns ~50% of the company that makes M72 versions in Norway... the ones in use now won't last forever)
-AMOS with STRIX (expensive... but fits with the "Iskukykytutkimus"-results)
-BMP-2FIN (BMP-2 needs to be upgraded as they are to be held in the roster for a looong time (Mech BG), packages exist... will exists, but does the money?)
-XA-360 AMV IFV (not bought yet, will it be bought as it costs big €€? I truly hope so!)
-Sisu HMTac vehicles (in 2009-2010 some 500-600 new vehicles are to be bought, Sisu being a STRONG candidate with these vehicles - some already in use as Bridge laying vehicles (5x5 variant))
-Patriot SAM (new SAM system was 100% sure to be bought to replace Buk, but it's the green stuff again that dictates, or the lack of it! Used Patriots are there to be bought, need is also there...)
-MRLS with CM ammo (AT-2 in use now, Finnish politicians waiting for the more humane CM ammo... The systems were bought to enable using ATACMS -type munitions, but then again would not be our first half-assed purchase with great ideas but lacking in results... Vickers anyone?)
-Hornet AG ammo (is 110% sure to be bought, but type of ammo/amount of it is unsure...)
-Lockheed C-130 (was rumours from quite high level in the air at the same time as CASA/Spartan tests were on... same with flying tankers for our Hornets. Latter did not materialize, C-130 may become true as our involvement in "peace keeping" is ever growing... (and what is more humiliating than lendind an Antonov?))
-Jurmo NEMO (tests have taken place, results seem satisfactory, currently coastal troops' mortars are towed with trucks... 1+1=?)


Another quick note, about vision setting I've used for infantry...
-10 = hand held II device, such as Wild Big, or bit older II device that can be used as a sight, such as Pilkington)
-15 = VV2000/VV2002
-40 = Matis Handheld Mk 3

Zip

Re: New Finnish OOB
 

Some rumours about Leo2A4 upgrade is the Strv122. The L55 seems to be a no-no due to barrel lenght in close quarters.

NLAW:

http://www.saabgroup.com/en/MediaRel...apon_order.htm

and some discussion:

http://63.99.108.76/forums/index.php?showtopic=23693

Re: New Finnish OOB
 

check stats for NLAW from GB OOB and MBT LAW. The same weapon, however not a TA-ATGM in a true sense. So acc. 80 is bull.

Re: New Finnish OOB
 

pdoktar, I've copied the weapon stat for NLAW from Swedish OOB and also rechecked with GB OOB, and yes, it's classed as TA-ATGM (weapon type 20) with accuracy of 80 and penetration of 150 (!!!!). I would also question if that penetration value would be a "bit" over the top...

Also Strv122 original designation was Leo 2A5S, and I used that data (Strv 122) for the "Leo 2A5FIN"... I am quite sure we wouldn't call it Strv 122 http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Zip

Re: New Finnish OOB
 

We've modified the penetration of the NLAW / MBT LAW in the next patch. It was put in years ago when nice little "details" about it's potential capabilities were not available.

It will have 100 pen in the next patch with a WH size of 8 not 5.

And yes, it's already been put into our Finn OOB

Don

Re: New Finnish OOB
 

Oh really ? Not a "true " TA ??


That certainly sounds like "top attack " capable to me.


Well then, do tell what you think it should be and why.

Don

Re: New Finnish OOB
 

New Finnish OOB

Perkele!

Pretty ambitious stuff there, Zip! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/cool.gif

Re: New Finnish OOB
 

Not a true TA-ATGM. Top Attack yes, but ATGM.. no? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...s/confused.gif

Re: New Finnish OOB
 

http://www.army-technology.com/projects/mbt_law/

"In the Predicted Line of Sight (PLOS) mode, the gunner tracks the target for three seconds and the missile's guidance electronics makes a record of the gunner's movement as he aims and computes the flight path to the predicted position of the target."

So we have a ballistic computer, but the projectile itself can not correct its flight path during flight, so no ATGM there although it is referred as a missile.

Given that the PzF3 IT-600 should have a ballistic computer and laser rangefinder, giving it acc. 5 and MBT LAW acc. 80 is misleading.

Re: New Finnish OOB
 

Up until about 6 hours ago if you wanted to model a TA weapon there was one and only one way to do that and that was with WC 20. As of this morning there is now a WC23 for NON ATGM TA weapons

Did you not notice that the PzF3 IT-600 has a laser rangefinder rating ? The acc. 80 of the MBT LAW is under review

Re: New Finnish OOB
 

Triple Hooray and Cheers! Thank You for your efforts to make the game even better!

Re: New Finnish OOB
 

Great work. Thanks!!

And I did not notice the rangefinder value but at least WG unit 207 has it, but it is listed as 5. Does RF 5 represent a laser rangefinder in LAW-type weapons?

Re: New Finnish OOB
 

That RF 5 was put in for the last patch but we both just realized that will only work with dedicated Inf-AT units and only complicates regular infantry units that may carry those weapons so we are looking at bumping up the accuracy of the weapon itself to 15 or 20 but we are still experimenting.

Don

Re: New Finnish OOB
 

I must say, this is quite impressive. You've clearly put a lot of work in this and as far as I can tell the formations are way more accurate than in the standard OOB. I was thinking of doing one of these myself so I wouldn't have to change things manually every time I create a scenario for myself to enjoy, but with this I don't have to. Just a few questions and suggestions for the hopefully upcoming new version:

- Special Jaegers are classed as commandos, which is of course accurate, but given how they are also para trained would paratroops be a more appropriate classification? I mean as far as I know, commandos don't get the "less casualties while paradropping" bonus. And the commandos bonus for passing difficult terrain is, from what I've experienced, really not that useful.

- The infantry and jaeger (90, not 05) formations have radios way too often. The only radios they have are the FO radios and a few others in a company. Now I keep seeing radios on individual squads way too often. Is this a balancing issue?

- 95 S 58-61M platoons should actually have four apilas patrols. And speaking of APILAS patrols, the amount of APILAS and KES seem to be reversed. Shouldn't they be carrying 3 APILAS and 6 KES? Again, this seems to be a balancing issue as 6 HEAT seems to be the standard load for anti tank patrols, but wouldn't the KES rounds compensate for this?

- Also on the topic of 95 S 58-61M, I read that you are planning on adding laser range finders for 95 S 58-61Ms. However even if they would be issued those, it would be one per platoon. Both mustis having them would be somewhat wrong. But then again, most of the possible target areas would probably be pre-sighted before the battle so that wouldn't actually be so wrong.

- Infantry and Infantry Bn AT Companies lack their AAMGs. Infantry company has two, AT Company three. Adding them shouldn't upset the balance too much and would also give them some of the much needed close range anti air defence.

And as a final note, I really enjoyed the scenarios you made for this OOB. The terrain and usage of troops was amongst the most realistic ones I've seen in scenarios involving Finland.

And Jaeger Business really, really reminded me an awful lot of an attack excercise we did in the army. My money is on you based this on something you yourself did once.

Looking forward for the next version
- Koh

Re: New Finnish OOB
 

I think I saw a moderator in steelbeasts forum asking Finnish people the secret behind the commercial success of the armor simulation (SB Pro PE) in Finland.

So yes, I think every Finnish is a warrior and every game connected to warfare is a national pastime.


Off-topic: Zipuli, I get mauled by godlike RPGs invisible and safe in buildings almost every time I pass that cursed town in one of your SB scens: section attack.
Am I supposed to blast my way and put every townspeople into grief? Gah, those truly divine RPGs can even penetrate LEO2A4s frontally.


- Comp

Re: New Finnish OOB
 

Thanks, I really have put some time and thought on this one...

-Good point about the specjgrs... I really haven't used them so they had less attention from me
-The makers stated that "radio" is used not only for the radio itself, but also to represent certain leadership attributes... So the current numbers are there to "simulate" good leadership instead of having a radio in your back. In one of the first versions I had realistic radio numbers, but changed when I read about the full meaning of "radio"
-About APILAS -patrols, yes, it's a balancing issue. All finnish infantry RPG -numbers are what I find best balance between "what they really carry" and "what they have with them". I think an example is needed here: An APILAS patrol usually would actually carry 3 APILAS and 3 KES, as more than that quite well immobilizes you. But the rest of the weapons are somewhere close by where you will get them quickly -> in attack they are in the APC/IFV or truck that moves with you, or with the company's supply-platoon (that the game doesn't model) that moves with the company's attack. In prep defence there are the ammo "foxholes" and so on. So a patrol has more ammo ready in few seconds than they actually carry on their backs. I use 6 APILAS and 3 KES as it's the APILAS that is the main weapon and KES would be most likely in the sections rather than the "mules" carrying them APILAS and AT-mines etc.
-About the Musti LRF, it adds a lot to the price of the unit (my current version in development has them) but also makes first-shot hit propability a lot higher - as it should be as those weapons are not (anymore) used in attack but rather in prep defence where ranges are pre-measured either by the weapon crew or the supporting FOs. Also now that Musti is making a come back in the training I suppose LRFs are not out of the question. Anyways they also can be understood more of the defence preparations than physical LRF in hand of the weapon commander...
-True about the AAMGs, I've added and deleted them every now and then because I cannot decide which is the best way, as especially the jaeger formations (org 90-91) do have them, but wether they are installed on the Pasi's or mounts depends on mission, leader, situation etc. -> I will look into this
-"My money is on you based this on something you yourself did once." Money well placed http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

After a longer pause again, now that v.4.0 is out, I will update the OOB with some stuff, including anything v4.0 has added - I haven't yet installed the newest version... Downloading now.

Zip

PS. I will also take a critical look at the radios, again as I noticed while playing that there is a big change in how the game now plays!

Re: New Finnish OOB
 

When you put it that way, the amount of APILAS does make sense. I had something like that in my mind when I was trying to justify a two-man patrol carrying six APILAS in the standard OOB.

On the topic of laser rangefinders, they definitely are not out of the question at least. The Musti companies currently trained have one LRF assigned to them. Giving them to both Mustis would probably be the only reasonably simple way to simulate their use in pre-sighting targets. The older Musti units would probably have to do without LRFs.

Oh and one more thing about Mustis. The OOB currently has their max range as 700 meters which is probably what it was in the standard OOB too, while mil.fi lists the effective range as 1000 meters.

And a few words about XP/morale bonuses. This probably doesn't affect gameplay too much, but PzJaeg/Mech seems to be missing the standard +2/+1 bonus you've given to operational units. Also sissi troops have a bonus of +10/+3 while recce units have +3/+3. Given how the sissi and recce guys are pretty much identical in training, maybe they'd deserve a similar bonus? And then there's the Coastal Jaegers who according to themselves at least are some sort of an elite unit. And apparently according to regular navy infantry are quite the opposite http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

And for some reason the Artillery Bn and Artillery Bty have a +5/+5 bonus. This was present in the standard OOB too and I have no idea what it is supposed to represent.

Oh and one more thing. I'm not sure if you've heard about the somewhat new Special Frontier Jaegers. I guess adding them to the OOB would be somewhat problematic as their organization is probably not public at the moment. For more info: Raja.fi


Keep up the good work, I'm eagerly waiting for a new version for SPMBT v 4.0. I'm holding off updating the main game before I can get a new version of your OOB http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...es/biggrin.gif
- Koh

Re: New Finnish OOB
 

-Musti range is same as default OOB, this is also true to other weapons, such as APILAS, KES, etc. etc. not to "break" the game's "inbuilt balance" (french Apilas has same range as Finnish etc.)
-I have given the +2/+1 not to all operational units, but only readiness brigade units. Jaeger Brigades (90/91) are also operational units, as were the armoured brigades. I gave it only because readiness brigades have a lot higher amount of professional soldiers and also the troops are the youngest (=less time from conscript training period) and ought to be (knocking wood) most important troops in future refresher training
-I may tone down the sissi's bonuses to match recce, not the other way round... If I change something.
-Coastal Jaegers say they are an elite because they do something that no one else does, speak Swedish http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif I really don't see a reason to promote them, maybe in modern times give them +2/+1 as they seem to adapt to similar system as the readiness brigades when it comes to troops' age and number of professionals...
-Arty bonuses came with the game, propably to represent the well known Finnish Artillery accuracy/firing method training (that has to do with the whole artillery system) - my OOB also brings the quite unique FO system to the game, at least in some sence...
-SFJ's, heard of them, seen them in action too... I think they go well under both sissi and spec jaeger, but do not deserve units of their own, as their organization is not public. They're same sort of special unit as Special Jaeger Battalion (except spec jaegers are NOT conscripts, like paras, divers and SFJ's), but instead of jumping out of perfectly fine planes and choppers, they may do more long range recce -oriented stuff?
-Don't hold your breath mate, next version may take a while. I am currently very busy with real life stuff and also (when I got time) trying to experiment with "realistic-radio-numbers" (tm) for the OOB and see how the game reacts to that. If you want to be of help, please do browse through the text files in the latest version and fix errors and typos, which are plenty http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif, or give your e-mail address to me and playtest the current version I have now. That version has most of the stuff OOB-wise done (plus currently has the radio test going), but I have yet to test it and finish all the other stuff (texts etc.).

Zip

Re: New Finnish OOB
 

- I noticed that in the last version of your OOB only 05 Brigades had the morale/xp bonuses, but in the current version Jaeger Brigade 90/91s and Navy Jaegers have them too. From what you wrote I can only assume this was unintentional. The 05 Brigades probably deserve their bonuses, but what about infantry formations. In all honesty, most of them would probably deserve some penalties. While at least some of the intantry battlegroups are somewhat recently trained (I know a few guys who were trained to become an infantry BG last year during their conscript service), most of the infantry formations are probably +35 reservists with 2 professional soldiers/battalion.
- While the arty bonuses probably do represent the fast response times and accuracy of the Finnish artillery, it leaves me somewhat puzzled as Heavy Art Bn and Bty and all mortar formations lack the same bonuses that they'd probably deserve.

As much as I'd like to help more, I'm really busy myself with several exams coming up fast. I'm just going to have to settle with bothering you here occasionally http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif
- Koh

Re: New Finnish OOB
 

So far most the above fixes etc. is true. In addition I have:
-Given Marksman (ItPsv 90) the new icon, that is used in the default OOB (finally, thanks devs!!)
-Given NLAW teams LRF stat of 22 (see post NLAW on this forum to see why) - vision remains the same 15 I used so far
-NLAW is no longer in same category as AT-patrols, but in same as Bn ATGM-teams... (in 2009 when you buy a Bn ATGM unit, you get to choose NLAW or Spike) There has not yet been any information of how the NLAWs will be used in Organization, except that they are for operational units. Having them on Company level (as in previous version) seems very unlikely when considering the NLAW deal moneywise (not THAT many units!!!)
-XA-180 and 185 with no AAMGs, as the AAMG is the weapon of the unit the XA is transporting, not integral with the vehicles! (example, Jaeger platoon 90/91 with 3 vehicles has only 2 AAMGs, so 1 XA-18X has no AAMG on it)
-modded BMP-2 has no more extra armour and can swim... It still has TIS and new AP round (APDS)
-the "what if" C-130 was removed, as the Finnish Goverment decided to participate in C-17 deal with some 14 countris instead of buying a plane or two of its own. As these birds are used by Finns 4 days a year, I've not included them in the OOB as heavy transport as in chrisis, what are the odds to get them into use? lol
-Spike teams are now so, that Spike MR is battalion level asset, LR is Bde level and ER is Navy anti-shipping missile...
-any Bn/Bde ATGM platoon -formations all have now 4 launchers instead of the old 2 launchers.
-NSV AAMG will have 1 better RF and FC from 96 onwards
-AMOS from 2009 onwards, as seeing them operational this year seems very unlikely!
-Leopard 2R naming is now "Leo 2R Plow" and "Leo 2R Dozer" to clarify it
-Added 155 K 83-97 from 1998 onwards - this one can fire NATO munitions too, which means ICM. K 83 can no longer fire ICM. K 83-97 / K 98 ammo loads changed
-AMV APC now with AAMG (2008 onwards) and AGL (2010 onwards) -> this is available in Jaeger plt/co 05+ -formation... platoon has 3 AMVs, 2 with AAMG and 1 with AGL (similar to US stryker -platoon, which may be possible here too, who knows?)
-removed RK riflegrenade from all units...
-coast jaegers available from 1961 onwards (they started in early 1960s just like the paratroopers)
-MI-8 service date expanded to 2015 as due to NH deal delays, MI-8 expire date was moved forth by repairing at St.Petersburgh
-SpecJaegers now para-trained
-biggest change, which I am most likely including, is the "realistic radio numbers", that reduces the chance to have radios for infantry units DRAMATICALLY!! Only exeptions are the newest formations (readiness bdes, mech BG, modern coast jaegers, spec ops) that all have radio 90. Most infantry units now have radio 0 (zero, nada), as FDF traditionally has had radios for infantry so, that maybe company CO has one, and that's it, next ones you find in battalion. This of course does not affect FO's they have radios naturally. BUT this means a jaeger company in 1995 has maybe a few radios in the Pasis (as they have bigger % of having a radio) and 1 in each FO section and that's it! This will affect the playing style in a very realistic way, as now you need to keep your units "in contact" by having them closer to each other, just like is done in reality. If you disperse your infantry units too much, you'll notice a dramatic decrease in fighting ability especially when receiving suppression. You should notice the difference very well, when you next take a Jaeger company 05 in modern times, as each section has a radio. Some units, such as early pzjaegers and all sissi/recce units have a better chance for having a radio, but they are "not given out like candy" http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

EDIT:
-also added SBJ units (special border jaegers) as semi-specops (Something like paratroops without para-training). These are the Border Guard's specially trained troops that would most likely be important prior to chrisis in the border areas, and also in war time they would have specialized missions, such as raiding and recce in those areas of the country. This category is also used for border guard's readiness unit (the cutthroat -guys with G36C). There'll be few different weapon choises for these guys, as it seems to be mission specific; RKs with optics, G36, PKM, KP2000 (MP5), KRPIST 2002, KES, Mines/Explosives...
-Will also take a closer look at all "spec ops" units bonuswise etc. (paras, divers, specjaegers, SBJaegers)

Now when will we have bridge layer equipment in SPMBT as I just saw our newest Leguan -toys http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

Zip

PS. True about the infantry units, but gotta remember that 35 seems to be now the age above which you may no longer get a war time duty in the frontline (???) - The "reserve inf" units are to present that old and untrained lot. Also got to remember that even with only maybe 1 professional soldier in a battalion (CO), the skill level of the reserve officers is very variable, from excellent to pure ****, with mediocre reserve officer being actually quite good at his game, especially if (when) he gets to train for a while after being called to arms and before thrown into fire...

Re: New Finnish OOB
 

More changes:

-removed off-map AMOS, available only on-map now
-new AMOS picture from field tests (old one was either a very early production or mock-up pic - though not a bad one)
-changed AMOS ammo load to correct (65), and crew to correct (4), and size to 5 (was 4), which dropped prices to 141, 154 (AMOS, AMOS STRIX)
-AMV APC (with AAMG) new picture ("turret" looks different in the production version vs. old pic that was prototype)
-added Fort "23 ItK 61 Fort", that are mostly used to cover the fixed Coast Artillery
-new 100 56 TK -image (was 130mm image)
-Bn AT Platoon added with BVs
-ATGM Company formation added with wheeled APCs, BVs or no transport. This is either independent ATGM company or Bde ATGM Coy (TOW equiped)
-Bde ATGM Company added for org 05
-AA Battery 61 and 61/95 added (9 x 23mm AA)
-NLAW platoons added (XA, BV, CV, foot)
-removed exp and mor bonuses from artillery formations
-tweaked exp and mor bonuses for special forces, sissi

All in all it's almost ready... testing, testing. If someone would like to help testing, PM me your e-mail. All help warmly welcome!!

Zip

Re: New Finnish OOB
 

I hope I'm not too late with this to make it to the new version, but since the new radio system seems to affect the gameplay somewhat significantly, I think it's worth mentioning that at least the newer Musti platoons have radio equipment of similar quantity as the Brigade 05s. They have squad level radios for coordinating the platoon's fire. I guess this could be perhaps most easily represented by giving the LRF equipped 95 S 58-61M squads a high chance of radios as well?

Re: New Finnish OOB
 

Musti radio ratings are 10,20,30,60,80 with last 2 from 2000 onwards. The one with 80 has the LRF for the section. You seem to be very keen on this particular weapon http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif. I added the AAMGs to Musti company, and after 1961 Musti section has speed 2. I found no info on musti platoon having 2 AT-sections, but one?

Zip

Re: New Finnish OOB
 

The amount of AT sections in a Musti platoon is a tricky one, simply because three of the four AT Patrols are not independent units. Eeach Musti squad has an organic AT Patrol of 3 men (the standard AT Patrol) that is lead by the squad second in command (almost always an NCO). In addition to that there's a somewhat rare squad type called Anti Tank Squad. I'm not sure if they are present anywhere else than the Musti Companies. It consists of two AT Patrols, each lead by an NCO and most of the time used independently from each other.

So all in all, that gives us 2 AT Patrols from the two Musti squads and 2 more AT Patrols from the AT Squad. So in total the platoon has two Musti's and four AT Patrols. That's some serious tank stopping power. Well, at least if the tanks are in range, which of course shouldn't be a problem in Finland.

And yes, I'm pretty keen on this particular weapon. It shouldn't be too hard to guess how I spent my time in the army. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

Re: New Finnish OOB
 

As the AT-patrols are part of the Musti section (Musti has crew of 6), maybe reduce Musti crew to 3 and add an AT-patrol to the section? The problem this way would be that Musti's combat survivability would drop dramatically, especially vs. bigger calibers and artillery. Other way of portraying it would be to add APILAS as a 2nd weapon to Musti section, but then the patrol would not be mobile.

"In addition to that there's a somewhat rare squad type called Anti Tank Squad. I'm not sure if they are present anywhere else than the Musti Companies. It consists of two AT Patrols, each lead by an NCO and most of the time used independently from each other."

-Well this one is not rare, as "Sinkoryhmä" is also found in each infantry/jaeger Company. Also the Jaeger Bn AT Platoon is made up of 3 of these squads. I've used AT-patrols to form these squads as they almost always work as patrols of 3. So in companies you find 2 patrols under CO, and in Bn AT platoon you find 6 patrols.

Zip

PS. Look what the cat brought in... Looks like a Leopard 2R assault breacher and AMOS on AMV with 3-colour camo http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif (see the attachments, contains JPG images)

Re: New Finnish OOB
 

Huh, I was under the assumption that Jaeger and Inf companies have two independent AT Patrols at company level. You're never too old to learn something new http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

The Musti crew question shouldn't be an issue. The crew of the weapon (with the 3 man AT Patrol detached) is actually four men and pretty much always a driver also joins the crew as an ammo bearer, giving it a crew of five. That should give it enough combat survivability. The standard crew of 6 the Musti's had in the original OOB seemed to detach the AT Patrols and then add all the extra men in the platoon (drivers, platoon leader, medics etc.) to the crews.

Also the Leopard 2R looks pretty awesome. Nice work!

Re: New Finnish OOB
 

OK, will look at the Musti platoons, and most propably go from crew 6 -> 5 and add AT patrols. You know the only time I saw Mustis was during my conscription time, and I didn't count the men, and haven't found any new info on platoon level org since platoon Musti number went down from 3 to 2, and back then the AT patrols used 55S55 http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif. However old the weapon is, it still makes a tremendous BANG when firing!

Zip

PS. Raisu 92 clearing a gravel road for the following supply column http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif. Maybe a few more icons, if I find anything worthy to add, as the game has them allmost all quite well covered, and in multiple camos too!

Re: New Finnish OOB
 

The bang that thing makes is something undescribable. The first time I head it I felt like the fillings on my teeth were falling out. The sound alone should rout the enemy in a half mile radius http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/laugh.gif

Nice work with the Raisu too! No more silly normal truck icon for that one.

Re: New Finnish OOB
 

Also edited Icons for BMP-1TJ, BMP-1TJJ (also edited a picture for this one, no more BMP-1 pic) and BMP-2 with no ATGM launcher (post 2005). It's starting to look like this weekend I'll post the mod. Only minor stuff left to do.

Zip

Re: New Finnish OOB
 

-- VERSION 5.1 OF THE FINOOB NOW AVAILABLE, SEE THE 1ST POST AND THE ATTACHMENT --

More small changes was done since last updates on this forum. For example keeping NLAW as it was, with no LRF/FC as others have it that way too...

Re: New Finnish OOB
 

Awesome! I'll dl it right away. And a new scenario too! This should keep me busy for a while.

Edit: A readme would've been handy, I accidentally unzipped a few hunder files in wrong folders before remembering the correct ones http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

Re: New Finnish OOB
 

Haha! Wrote a readme but forgot to include in the zip, fixed! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif And your turn to make some scenarios to keep me busy!

Zip