How do I Beat Back Rush Tactics?
 

Mammoths, minotaurs, double-blessed Chalice knights, and all manner or large, swift, and deadly units. When they invade, how can I prevent getting slaughtered?

Re: How do I Beat Back Rush Tactics?
 

An awake combat pretender such as a wyrm of Prince of Death with minimal equipment can do wonders.

Re: How do I Beat Back Rush Tactics?
 

With magic...

Most big tramplers have very low MR so against mammoths/elephants use control spells (or rage, confusion etc). One revolted mammoth may make all the squad useless as the other units will attack him with their weak trunk attack. Paralyzation, slaying, blindness etc... are also good.

Against human units like knights who don't have an insane strength, earth meld can be used to stop them (they will be at range at the end of round one, so cast it fast), then chaff in attack cavalry can arrives before they kill valuable units.

Re: How do I Beat Back Rush Tactics?
 

Search a bit on this board, there was a thread not too long ago that had a big-ish list on spells that counter elephants. I thiiiink putting "counter elephants" in the search engine should bring it up, but no promises.

Edit: Naturally, at least some of the list will be useful to you, whatever's stomping you.

Re: How do I Beat Back Rush Tactics?
 

Here is the list:
http://www.shrapnelcommunity.com/thr...art=1&vc=1

Re: How do I Beat Back Rush Tactics?
 

Sounds like you need to build your nation focusing more on immediate short-term power rather than hoping for long term scales.

IMHO a heavy scales dependent nation (aka investing in really good scales) is the biggest shortfall of most MP players. Sometimes it does work out - but the vast majority of the time you will be eliminated quickly.

So my first recommendation is if you aren't running a good bless you need an awake combat pretender - or just cross your fingers and hope for a lucky break.

The second recommendation is to find your neighbors and immediately start researching in area's to counter their national strength.

The third recommendation is to pick stronger nations rather than weaker nations. Some nations are just better in MP than others. So if you go with MA Abysia or MA Ulm rather than a nation like MA Vanheim or MA Pythium you are automatically putting yourself in the hole. Of course it can be very satisfying to win with an underdog nation - but don't fool yourself into thinking all nations are created equal.

Re: How do I Beat Back Rush Tactics?
 

Velusion:

From my experience, even with good scales when you survive till mid or late game you probably have much less territory, thus less income and gem income and research than someone that used bless or rush tactic and got much more land in the beginning.

Re: How do I Beat Back Rush Tactics?
 

I have to disagree regarding going with good scales. I think it's just like going with an uber bless - makes sense with some nations but you'll get destroyed if you don't have the right units to back it up. Going with good scales can be a very viable strategy if you are playing a nation with strong non-holy units. MA/LA Arcoscephale for instance is a great candidate for strong scales. Pangea is another. If you can build an expansion army at least every other turn who takes few losses an expansion pretender doesn't make that much difference. If you've got a strong dominion you don't need to worry too much about enemy SC pretenders attacking you, and if you've got some good combat mages to back up your stout troops you can most certainly hold off small uber blessed squads with very low level magic. With good scales and strong research mind burn and earth meld very quickly turns into destruction and soul slay if you're well motivated to focus on them.

As with everything it's no silver bullet, but it can certainly be a viable strategy if played right.

Re: How do I Beat Back Rush Tactics?
 

To answer the original question though, since you aren't asking about a particular rush it's impossible to suggest a particular counter, but there are a couple things you've got going for you when you're being rushed. First, the enemy is (hopefully) inside your dominion so they'll have a moral penalty. Next, you've got the flexibility of levying PD in provinces you expect to be attacked - the usefulness of this varies immensely depending on the nation you're playing but for some nations just unexpectedly strong PD can thwart an initial rush. In most cases you'll have greater maneuverability working inside your territories. Finally, rushers often make mistakes in being too aggressive and storming straight to your capital, or at least deep into your territory to try and quickly cripple you. Combine these facts and you've got all the ingredients for catastrophic route pie if you can out-anticipate your enemy.

One of my favorite things to do to somebody who's rushing in too aggressively is to cut off his retreat by attacking the province he's moving from, then jack up the PD in the one he's moving to while moving several mages in to support the PD - hopefully with spells like panic or terror, in addition to whatever you need to specifically counter what's rushing you (earth meld, etc). If you do this right when they're moving out of a wasteland or low population mountain province hopefully some of them will be starving. Pull this off correctly and the enemy will route and be totally destroyed while you have absolutely no losses and turn the rush around on him as you move your army back offensively.

At least...in theory. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Re: How do I Beat Back Rush Tactics?
 

I've actually pulled this of against a pretty good opponent once. Two turns later he gave up. That was fun. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Re: How do I Beat Back Rush Tactics?
 

It's viable but more risky in the short run than going for an immediate strength bump like an awake combat pretender or a good bless.

I don't agree with this... IMHO it takes more than the really early magic to hold back really good bless rushers. It also means you have to commit the bulk of your mages to fighting - which in the research scramble you'll fall behind.

I will agree that for some nations (Pan, Arco, Pythium) you can formulate a decent strategy around really good scales. However - when it comes to scaring away or stopping determined early bless rushers or elephants a combat pretender or counter bless will heavily strengthen a hand that would only otherwise have to rely on early magic.

Good scales can work well - but you're betting that your neighbors didn't invest their points into an early rush strategy or that you can avoid/counter it either through diplomacy or alliances... or that you can simply out play them.

Re: How do I Beat Back Rush Tactics?
 

It seems like there are enough points out there so that you can have an awake combat pretender or a lvl-9 bless while still pulling good scales.

Sure you might have to take sloth or misfortune or something, but doesn't everyone do that?

Order + magic + one of either production or luck (while selling off the other), you can normally afford an awake pretender with at least a little magic and not a horrible dominion.

Or do you mean like... -good- scales. Like -really good- scales?

If you're talking about positive scales across the board, then yeah, I agree with you. But, I'm not sure if you'd get any arguement about positive scales across the board being a bad idea like 99% of the time. I mean, I don't think Baalz is arguing for that kind of scale setup. Are you Baalz?

To me, good scales means like: Order-3, Sloth-2, Misfortune-1, Magic-3. That is not that hard to afford.

Do people actually try to pull off scales like: Order-3, Production-1, Growth-2, Magic-3? Does it ever work for anyone?

Re: How do I Beat Back Rush Tactics?
 

As pointed out above extremely positive scales (even combining luck and order) can work out if you have the units to survive early game. Some nations can do this well, others not as well. Everything is possible of course (with some extreme power gaming). http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Re: How do I Beat Back Rush Tactics?
 

CUnknown:

Even sloth 3 is part of good scales http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Re: How do I Beat Back Rush Tactics?
 

I've gone for a really-good-scales strategy a couple of times, and it has worked very nicely. On the other hand, I'm beginning to think I'm obscenely lucky at this game. I've never been rushed in the early game - in fact I don't even remember ever having a war in the early game that I didn't start. It's kind of weird...

Re: How do I Beat Back Rush Tactics?
 

Never fear llamabeast there is a rush out there somewhere with your name on it http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Re: How do I Beat Back Rush Tactics?
 

I tend to take a sleeping sc. That gives you points for scales, and also to add some magic to your sc. But I have never played Ulm in a mp game. If i did my pretender would be awake and size 6.

Even Sleeping, a feared sc like the gorgon can keep you from being rushed. And in Fallacy, I was quick to tell my neighbors
what my pretender was and that it could be out as early as turn 9.

Few people want to rush and fail because then they are screwed. And the threat of a sleeping sc is almost as good as an awake one if they know you are not bluffing.

Re: How do I Beat Back Rush Tactics?
 

I consider your later example an example of good scales while your former one is simply mediocre. People do try to pull off the really good scales sometimes...

Re: How do I Beat Back Rush Tactics?
 

llamabeast - nah, you're not necessarily lucky. People don't tend to rush opponents they view as strong. Even if there is no reason to think you are especially strong in a certain game, if there's a newb closeby, that person is the one who gets rushed instead.

Also, I think being good at diplomacy, or even just open to talking, greatly lowers the chance you will get rushed.

Re: How do I Beat Back Rush Tactics?
 

And, being he game host, perhaps players do not want to rush you right away? Just a thought, since I have not played in any of your games.

Re: How do I Beat Back Rush Tactics?
 

Yeah, actually I am. Take LA Arco for instance. Compare a fairly standard awake combat pretender setup:
Dom 10 Awake Prince of Death
Order -3 Misfortune -2 sloth -1 magic -1
Level 5 death magic

VS an extreme scales setup:
Dominion 7 Imprisoned Oracle
Order -3, Productivity -3, Growth -3, Luck – 3, Magic – 1
Level 5 astral magic


The first one you've got the obvious benefits of your awake pretender. With the second one you gain:
14% more gold plus the growth over time from growth/productivity
Some substantial amount more gold from the 5 level luck shift, I'd guess on the order of about 15% once you count gold loss from barbarian attacks, temple loss, etc. shifting from Misfortutune -2. Obviously I'm pulling this number out of thin air, but whatever it is it's substantial.
Despite the equality of the magic scales you'll be dropping castles faster due to your extra gold so your research will be faster.
60% more resources - this means 60% more of those 62 resource elephants for your initial expansion (and defense), 60% more heavy infantry later on for your meatshields.
Plus the more minor benefits like supply and national heroes
Plus all the other benefits of luck - gems, items, free chaff, etc.

Now the primary drawback, obviously, is the case of a strong rush (which as with Llamabeast, I very seldom see). Ignoring this possibility for a second the good scales version is clearly superior assuming you're expanding with elephants as fast as possible and sending out expansion parties every 1-3 turns. The 60% bonus in resources is critical in the first few turns (not to mention the ~30% gold bonus) as you'll get out your first few expansion parties a turn or two earlier thus roughly equalizing the indie territories you can grab on the first year or so compared to using the PoD. At this point you're clearly better off with the good scales as all that extra gold income compounds into castles and research, gems flow in from your luck scales and you land a couple national heroes.

So, back to the question of can you defend against a strong rush? Obviously you're more vulnerable than if you have an awake combat pretender, but by the time you're realistically looking at a rush attacking your capital (around the end of year one) you should have alt-3 done which gives you body ethereal and earth meld to back up those impressive elephants and good infantry, or evo-3 and thaum-1 so the guy trying to hit your capital can suck on a 10 person fireball flinging communion while trying to hack through your fairly tough heavy infantry and decent PD. You'll also be pulling in more than 50% more gold than somebody of a similar size who took crappy scales to support a bless rush and not many people are going to be able to keep up with your initial elephant expansion. More vulnerable than having a PoD? Yes. Helpless in the face of a rush? Hardly. The benefit to me is more than the cost - particularly in the very common case that I don't have to defend against an early rush.

Again, not saying this is clearly superior, just that it's a viable choice in some circumstances.

Re: How do I Beat Back Rush Tactics?
 

Arco is something of an odd case, though.

Elephants are a rush strategy and can probably counter most bless rushes on their own.

More vulnerable than an elephant rush backed up by a PoD? Sure. More vulnerable than, for example, MA Ulm with a PoD? Probably not.



It's actually one of the things I like about LA Arco. An early rush strategy that's actually helped by good scales for the late game.

Re: How do I Beat Back Rush Tactics?
 

Yes, you can also pull off similar things (to a somewhat lesser degree) with a couple other nations. Pangea is another one I'll sometimes play with extreme scales (though I generally prefer to use my pretender for some magic diversity there) and there are some others I'd consider it for. Like I said, its all about having he right units to back up your strategy, just like trying to lay down an uber bless.

Re: How do I Beat Back Rush Tactics?
 

I agree with all your observations really. I do think it can be viable with the right nation.

But the main question for the post was "how do I avoid\beat an early rush." Like you said - the benefits might outway the risk - but if the issue is how to avoid/beat the risk most effectively then an awake combat pretender or counter bless is the best bet.

It's all just risk assessment and desired playstyle IMHO. I've never wanted to feel or look weak early in the game so I've always put having a strong early game high on my priorities. As a result (IMHO) I've never been rushed early and I often make it into the late game. Of course... for all my 2nd and 3rd place medals I've never actually won a large game... so take what you will from my view http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Re: How do I Beat Back Rush Tactics?
 

Even without a counter bless of your own, some nations can counter bless rushers with other "troops", elephants being the obvious example.

Sauromatia's hydras and poison archers where brutal to Vanheim glamor sacreds in one game I played. Maybe massed skinshifter or trampling Minotaurs? At least against some sacred types.

Especially if you're only trying to delay long enough for a sleeping SC to wake up and get equipped.

Re: How do I Beat Back Rush Tactics?
 

It had occurred to me, though I certainly hope it's not true. The server's automated guys, feel free to take me down!

Re: How do I Beat Back Rush Tactics?
 

Nah, simply everyone loves you and it is rare to play with you, so why would they want to kill you fast? Anyone harming llamabeast early would surely be ganged on fast http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Re: How do I Beat Back Rush Tactics?
 

I think that llama does have some extra protection being the host.. I'm pretty sure it made me want to be your friend http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/laugh.gif of course you keep being a #(*)$&*&#*) so it never works out http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/laugh.gif

Re: How do I Beat Back Rush Tactics?
 

Don't worry llama ... I have no compunctions about attacking the game host, and I'm sure there are many others like me too. So you aren't missing out on all the fun.

As far as rushes go, I've rushed in the past. And been rushed more than once too. It's never been in turn 12, it's always around turn 6 or 7. This is on 15-province-per-player maps.

It is necessary to prepare for a rush if you don't want to get creamed, I learned. But preparing to defend against a rush usually means you're capable of your own rush (unless your defense is monkey PD !!!!11!!). And when you see that your closest neighbor has no bless, and has not popped out a god yet ... well, the temptation is there.

Not only that, being prepared for a rush means you aren't going to have problems with expanding into indies, in the normal case where no rush occurs.

Re: How do I Beat Back Rush Tactics?
 

I have launched a rush or two but it always seems to trigger instant bad karma.

The moment I attack one opponent I discover new and insanely aggressive neighbours who attack me immediately. This seems to happen very early and well before anyone has had time to do much in the way of scouting (before turn 12).

Re: How do I Beat Back Rush Tactics?
 

First of all, if a potential rusher offers you a NAP, by all means, take it! ;-)

From my perspective, a rush strategy that quickly takes out one enemy capital is doing well. Rushing a second enemy normally does not happen. So a rusher will look around and attack what he views as the weakest enemy.

If you took good scales, you need to project enough strength that the rusher will seek weaker prey. A good rusher will definitely be able to defeat a good scale strategy, but if the war drags on before he is able to defeat you, then he has lost also. So just being able to present yourself as a difficult opponent will entice him to form a NAP with you and attack others.

Re: How do I Beat Back Rush Tactics?
 

The one of the things I'm having problems with. Any suggestions on holding back the running of the bulls?

Re: How do I Beat Back Rush Tactics?
 

Gah, I should almost certainly refrain from answering that at the moment, but I'd suggest looking through the fairly comprehensive list of suggestions for dealing with elephants and see if any of them seem likely to translate well to minotaurs. A lot of them won't, but some should.

http://www.shrapnelcommunity.com/thr...;Number=540554

Gah, I can't catch it, it's slipping out....

I'd set everybody towards the back of the battlefield and have your Augurs use body ethereal, body ethereal, then start with the evocation spells. This should hopefully buy you the time you need to bring down the minotaurs.

Shadow blasts should work reasonably well.

Flaming arrows will effect all those javelins.

Re: How do I Beat Back Rush Tactics?
 

One tactic I like to use against rushers is the scout spam(maybe someone here has mentioned it already, I haven't read all posts). Like Baalz mentioned, rushers tend to be aggressive so they PROBABLY invest most of their resources into steamrolling you. They mostly don't care about PD.
So what I like to do is to build a lot of scouts and them into the rushers territory. Remember: An undefended province can be taken over even by a scout.
Then I buy some PD in the newly conquered provinces and laugh an evil laugh.
Hopefully this will get the rushers attention and make him turn back his armies to reconquer his provinces...unless of course he thinks that he can steamroll you anyway.
This is not some kind of perfect plan, but it has worked for me a couple of times.

Re: How do I Beat Back Rush Tactics?
 

Baalz, I suspect you've got a particular situation in mind, so those may be valid suggestions there, but I keep seeing things like this suggested for dealing with rushes.

As I understand the term, a rush is real early. First year, at least.
Flaming Arrows, Shadow blasts, etc, require quite a bit of research. Those are great mid-game counter for Minotaurs, etc, but they're hardly going to be available in time to stop an early rush.

Re: How do I Beat Back Rush Tactics?
 

True, I was referring to a particular scenarios (he's EA Ermor around the beginning of year three), but to be honest I don't really see minotaurs being a viable rush (as in first year) option. The reason is because they really need critical mass to be effective. They have no shield, light armor, and no defense to speak of. They've got decent hitpoints, but they have to inflict a lot of damage real fast so the battle is over before those hitpoints run out. Heck, 10 minotaurs probably can't take out the PD on most people's capital (compare to 500 gold worth of other units used for rushing). For the same reason this means minotaurs are poor choices for initial expansion which makes them very difficult to mass in the first year. Minotaurs come into their own when you can field groups of 30+ buffed by haste though. Against human sized opponents this is really where you need a counter, before that point they're not terribly scary.

PS, thought of another counter for EA Ermor (and others) - don't they have fairly high defense cavalry? Won't help you at this point as your capital is sieged, but having the minotaurs run into those first should stop the trample and buy you the time to inflict damage.

Re: How do I Beat Back Rush Tactics?
 

I'm guessing that most players buy at least 1-3 PD in each province (and all players should), which should be enough to repel a single scout. And even if your method works, he'll just buy another point or two of PD (after he sees one province conquered, that is.) in every other province and the scout rush has been averted.
I don't even think the rusher will be in any financial difficulty, since he did use his rush strategy to capture a lot of surrounding provinces which gives a nice boost to your economy.

Re: How do I Beat Back Rush Tactics?
 

I'd say the scout rush tactic has a reasonably chance of working simply due to carelessness on the part of the other player, but since it can be stopped by only 1PD it certainly is a bit risky.

I say this because I often forget to build PD and often lose provinces to enemy scouts. Grr!

Re: How do I Beat Back Rush Tactics?
 

Maybe you should try it against monkey PD, even 100 monkey PD can't stop a lone scout http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif
And yeah, I can definitely sympathize with carelessness :S

Re: How do I Beat Back Rush Tactics?
 

Can't you attack the rushing army head on with a scout set to retreat and have a chance of forcing him to stay in his province? I'm not sure what the odds are, but they're greater than 0 if it works, and if you do it every turn you're bound to stein the opponent at least once.

Re: How do I Beat Back Rush Tactics?
 

MA Ermor, right?

You can try a few Behemoths with body ethereal and luck cast on them, backed up by archers and skelly spam. Minotaurs have low defense and low attack, so they should be vulnerable to being trampled themselves.

You don't need that many Behemoths, six is lots probably.

Edit: Just to clarify, this is advice for your current situation, not for a general early Pan minotaur rush.

Edit again: Whoops, got the Era confused, thought you were MA. If you were, you'd probably have your own blessed vestals to counter with anyway. Back to the drawing board.

Edit again: Have you tried Equites? They have a lance for good damage, and high defense, and they are the same size as minotaurs, so they won't be trampled.

You could also try backing up the Equites with Stellar Cascades. Since there are 2 minotaurs to a square, 1 cast should affect 10 minotaurs. If you can bring two S2 casters for every 10 minotaurs, that should be more than enough. (One Elder casting Northern Star, and the rest Augers would be good).

Re: How do I Beat Back Rush Tactics?
 

Yes, I am aware of these flaws. However, the scout spam builds on that you recruit not just a single scout but several of them and capture several provinces in the same time. This tactic also plays on a gamers carelessness. So if you are not trying to rush a feeble minded opponent this tactic probably won't work.
If you are playing a nation like Pangaea, Yomi/Shinuyama, Bandar, you can sneak in entire armies into enemy territory.

Re: How do I Beat Back Rush Tactics?
 

I'm not saying scout spamming doesn't work at all, I'm just saying that it is:
a) Situational. (and the situation is somewhat hard to predict [you can't really tell who's careless and who isn't])
b) Hardly an effective and reliable counter to rush tactics.

As for sneaking in armies - that's a whole other strategy.

Re: How do I Beat Back Rush Tactics?
 

One scout costs 20 gold. For that 20 gold you can protect 20 provinces from scouts. So much for the scout spam "strategy".

Re: How do I Beat Back Rush Tactics?
 

Well, you got me there! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif Unless the enemy sends in assassins...

And of course it depends on how much cash you got. It's a better investment protecting ur provinces from scouts if you are short gold than setting up a scout spam.