First inkling that you’ve won/lost an MP Game?
 

Wondering if some of you more experienced players would share some of your memories here.

I was also curious how often “domes” get used in the MP arena?

-SSJ

Re: First inkling that you’ve won/lost an MP Game?
 

I use domes often if I have an air or astral mage and a good gem income to cast them (I like domes stopping spells not just doing bad jokes).

I never encountered an ennemy dome in 7 MP games so my impression is they are not very used (but I rarely use attack rituals on ennemy forts so perhaps they are).

Re: First inkling that you’ve won/lost an MP Game?
 

It´s often used. Attack spells are common too.

Re: First inkling that you’ve won/lost an MP Game?
 

In all the MP end games that I have been involved in, domes were quite common. I have even been subjected to "dome-busting", where an opponent would rain 20 or more attack spells at a dome, in order to knock it down.

A good hint that you are about to lose is when your oppenent/opponents starts sending Tartarian SCs at you, and you don't have any of your own.

Re: First inkling that you’ve won/lost an MP Game?
 

Thanks for the replies all.

So there is no easy way to make "Tartarian-sauce" out of them [img]/threads/images/Graemlins/Grenade.gif[/img] ?...

I noticed that SCs was plural. Does the end game often have many single SCs running about to take and hold provinces and fewer massive armies?

-SSJ

Re: First inkling that you’ve won/lost an MP Game?
 

The end game commonly boils down to a few unique artifacts, Tartarians and Arcane Nexus.

It makes one wonder what the game would be like without Tartarians and Arcane Nexus http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif. My guess is MP games would last MUCH longer.

Re: First inkling that you’ve won/lost an MP Game?
 

Usually you have massive armies with an handful of SCs in them, and some flying/teleported SCs and/or mages teams doing surprise attacks on less defended provinces, to cut retreat or open a second front (or just to annoy you).

Re: First inkling that you’ve won/lost an MP Game?
 

I have never seen Arcane Nexus. I won my last game with Forge of the Ancients. That was nice.

Re: First inkling that you’ve won/lost an MP Game?
 

lots of the MP games have the arcane nexus disabled, but if he gets up, the playert that casts him wins. (or at least in games i am in)

Re: First inkling that you’ve won/lost an MP Game?
 

i always use domes in mp. There is no point to taking good scales and not putting domes up over key provinces. I always take good scales though, if i took bad scales i may not bother with domes.

Re: First inkling that you’ve won/lost an MP Game?
 

Unlike Xietor, I believe domes are a useful part of almost any strategy. Even with poor scales, a couple of domes can protect major production/research centers - you'd be annoyed if your enemy drove your capitols unrest up by several hundred points if you needed capitol only mages.

Domes can also be useful for moving large armies around in relative safety. If you're opponent is fans of mass army(or commander) murdering spells then setting up a path of dome-covered provinces can allow your troops to get up front mostly unharmed.
Combine them with flying/teleporting(not into your domes) squads of SC killers - obviously to take out SCs who try to destroy your armies - and you can maintain armies well into the late game, although of course it gets harder in enemy territory.

Re: First inkling that you’ve won/lost an MP Game?
 

Out of curiosity, if you have the choice of all available domes, which would you prefer? (first & second choice)

Also, wouldn't the other players set aside their differences for the moment, group their astral gems together, and dispel a nexus pretty quickly?

Re: First inkling that you’ve won/lost an MP Game?
 

People often do try to dispel a nexus quickly, but in a big game you can often get a large enough return on the first turn its up to put it up again. Not knowing how strongly its put up, people may run out of gems to dispel it.
Also, the casting nation is often the most astral-focused nation and should have many astral pearls in reserve, and possibly alot of clams.

Re: First inkling that you’ve won/lost an MP Game?
 

It is hard to get players to work together to dispel stuff in my experience. It seems most people just think if they do nothing "someone else" will dispel it.

And by the time they realize "someone else" ain't, the game is over.

I like the air dome best with its 80 percent chance to stop spells and it does not have to be renewed. In a perfect world, I like to have an air dome, forest dome, and a frost/fire dome up at my capital.

Re: First inkling that you’ve won/lost an MP Game?
 

Air dome is quite easy to dispel with the simplest spell "Voice of Apsu". At an average of 10 water gems you should dispel it. That's why air dome may but shouldn't be used alone. It needs to be backed up by astral or (maybe even better) fire or frost dome.

Re: First inkling that you’ve won/lost an MP Game?
 

That's a sneaky trick Ano!

Re: First inkling that you’ve won/lost an MP Game?
 

I generally find that I'm losing with two conditions:

1. I have a pile of gems/gold and no plan for them. Generally, this means I have no grand strategy and will be losing soon.

2. I have been spending gems on bad summons. Desperation tactics like summoning wyverns or animals means I'm fighting for my life.

I know I'm winning when:

1. I have four or five "army taker" armies that can plow through any army the enemy can provide. These tend to be heavily supported by magic and mages, as well as the best troops like marble statues or wights,

Re: First inkling that you’ve won/lost an MP Game?
 

you cant cast site searching spells at provinces you do not own.

Re: First inkling that you’ve won/lost an MP Game?
 

I think Voice of Apsu is the exception Xietor, if I remember correctly.

Re: First inkling that you’ve won/lost an MP Game?
 

I like the Forest Dome for my second dome. It doesn't have all that much stopping power, but it tends to hold up for a long time.

Re: First inkling that you’ve won/lost an MP Game?
 

I can't imagine why you would not have domes up on vital provinces - the alternative would be asking for trouble.

Re: First inkling that you’ve won/lost an MP Game?
 

> First inkling that you’ve lost an MP Game?

I signed up.

Re: First inkling that you’ve won/lost an MP Game?
 

Yes, it's the exception and it's the cheapest way to dispel that dome, I think.
Mind hunt is also rather cheap even despite it may result in feeblemind for one of casting mages (and requires S4 while voice requires W2). There're some other good spells for this purpose but it's important to understand that quality doesn't matter. Only price does.
Also, if you're a blood nation, spamming rains of toads may be a good idea as it costs only 8 slaves and will really hurt if it passes through the dome (and if one of the first castings in the turn sequence passes and dispels the dome, all the latter should hurt too)

Re: First inkling that you’ve won/lost an MP Game?
 

One indication you're winning is when every commander you kill has a slave collar or rod of the leper king. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

Re: First inkling that you’ve won/lost an MP
 

AFAIK, slave collar cannot be found. And in the late game such tactics doesn't seem viable to me as it's rather easy to counter. Just bring more commanders (you should have them) or fill the slots for those items.

Re: First inkling that you’ve won/lost an MP
 

Well last game, when I started top of the charts.. I knew I was actually loosing when the 2 pplz fighting me (in the charts together just a bit better than me) beat my 2 large armies (I send one to each) where beaten with only 25% losses to their (aprox equal strenght) armies because they did know how to use mages. My atlantis opponent kept spamming skellies with 8 mages and my man opponent did something with communion and bladestorm. Both my armies had only vanjarls (maybe 2 each) who couldn't do much.

Re: First inkling that you’ve won/lost an MP
 

Btw, what is meant by "lost". Does it mean "eliminated" or just "not won"?
I don't see the major difference, but sansanjuan could have meant elimination not losing.

Re: First inkling that you’ve won/lost an MP
 

I guess losing is not winning in dominions.

Re: First inkling that you’ve won/lost an MP
 

It's fun to lose! Strike the Earth! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

Re: First inkling that you’ve won/lost an MP
 

But I think that you know you lost when there is 1 strong player and you are the only one that cares about it and no one else wants to attack him and still has its own small wars.

Re: First inkling that you’ve won/lost an MP
 

It's rather stupid not to care about it.

Re: First inkling that you’ve won/lost an MP
 

I think that attitude "others will take care of it" attitude is quite common. When most of people are like that and you are even very strong, but not strongest, you can as well go AI and join new game, instead of wasting time.

Re: First inkling that you’ve won/lost an MP
 

I like to think of them as weak kings, afraid, ignorant or both, of what lies beyond their kingdom. They believe that no harm will come to them and their people if they do not interfere with the outside world, and that total harmony is achieved by isolation. In reality they are of course doomed if no one can wake them from their slumber.

The mental picture I get is of king Theoden, sitting on his throne and rotting away.

Re: First inkling that you\'ve won/lost an MP
 

It's not always stupidity (ano's idea), or fear or weakness (Dedas's idea), or apathy (Zeldor's idea).

Here's a situation for you:

In the far west of the world, the nations of Arco and Ulm lived beside each other in peace, tending to their equal kingdoms of 15 provinces each. Until the 28 month, that is ... a vast wave of elephants poured over the borders!

Ulm's finest general was slain. The Ulmish army was crushed. A group of sages was squished inside their library while they studied. The slaughter went on for a few more months, and the elephants gathered at the Ulmish capitol.

But then ... a Prince of Death dropped from the sky! The elephants fled in terror. But the stealthy Ulmish army had taken all the surrounding lands in the same turn, and the elephants were all destroyed.

Ulm battled back to the original border, but then was stymied by Arco magic, and at the end of the third year, they had reached a stalemate.

In the first month of the fourth year, messengers from other nations arrived, telling of impending doom, for Vanheim had overrun most of the east. The messengers tell them it's only logical that they stop fighting, because otherwise Vanheim will win.

....

So, what do you think Ulm and Arco would do? I've *never* seen them stop fighting. They don't care about Vanheim. They don't care about the east. If it had just been a couple of border skirmishes, then maybe ... but man, that thing at the library? Unforgivable!

Re: First inkling that you\'ve won/lost an MP
 

And that's what I said. Those people don't care for victory, only for the own rage. I don't understand that and I was one of them, I would definitely do everything to sign a peace treaty.
However, if I had 15 provinces at the late game, probably, I should have gone to AI earlier.

Re: First inkling that you\'ve won/lost an MP
 

Ha ha ha http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif Sorry, please don't get bogged down in the details. It's a hypothetical situation.

And how is going AI any better than continuing your little war? What if you and your opponent are having tremendous fun with the war in the west?

I agree that's it's annoying when you're one of the nations from 'the east' in my example. But you've got to make do with the allies you have, not the allies you wish you have.

Re: First inkling that you’ve won/lost an MP
 

A variant of this I've seen in many games is the strong but not strongest nations ignoring victory conditions and prefering to play very long term hoping that "someone" will stop the first one.

Globals like Strands of Arcane Power, Forge of the Ancients, tartarians, artefacts etc... may be decisive in a normal victory game ending at turn 100+ but if the game is with VP, province or dominion victory all this is useless if the ennemy can win around turn 50 or before, and to stop someone in this kind of games good levels in alteration, evocation, thaumaturgy or even a big army of normal troops worth far more than going for endgame enchantment, conjuration or construction. As well, fighting the weakest nations is only usefull if you have time to use their capitol income for victory.

The extreme example was in a 50/150 province victory game with ten players we played this year. I was playing Atlantis with an awake Dagon and short term scales, and simply took as many indies provinces I could. I had the biggest army but the first in research had three time my level, and Niefelheim had rushed 2 weak neighbours and so owned 3 capitols. Anyway all this was useless as I reached 50 provinces in turn 26 because they only started to attack me when I was at 45, and I won the turn after, attacking as many ennemy provinces I could.

I've made the same kind of error in a longest game with VPs victory last year. I was playing Arco and was first in provinces and income and second in research iirc but was far from most VPs. I could have researched thaum 9 for astral travel to gateway my troops on some far away undefended VPs but instead prefered to go for conjuration 9 and invested a lot to developp death and prepare a tartarian factory... And Pangea won before my first tartarian was sent to the front.

Re: First inkling that you\'ve won/lost an MP
 

ano:

Being small in late game can be quite fun, you can get some action, cooperate with someone bigger. The worst thing is to be in the middle with real chance to win, but there are many people in the ssame position and they all need to cooperate to get the first guy down. Some people are even so stupid to team with the strongest guy. And well... they get absolutely nothing from that. The other hard case are people that join new game just to hurt someone, because they got beaten by him in a different game. The join, suicide and start early war, taking both of them down.

Re: First inkling that you\'ve won/lost an MP
 

vfb:
Well, that's my attitude)) I get no fun if I see no chance to win. If someone does then it's up to him to decide what to do;)
As for me, it's practically better to work on mistakes and prepare to another fight a bit better (however, games are often lost due to starting unluck)

Zeldor:
I agree.

Re: First inkling that you\'ve won/lost an MP
 

What I meant was that I sometimes like to think (read: role play) that there is such a reason behind the passiveness of a player. In reality there could be lots of reasons of course. If some of them make I good story I role play them as well.

In-game (not real) grudges between players makes a good game for me as well, as it adds atmosphere. Although if I have ambitions for world domination I try to not get involved in them. That usually means I'm pretending to look down on them.

Sometimes I just let myself go with imagined fury for the wrongs that player x or y has done to my nation and swear revenge matter the costs. I like to think that my people are with me on that and that the whole religion around me (I'm a pretender God right) is rapidly declining into a everyones quest for personal vengeance on the wrong doers.

If you do it with well it is much more entertaining than just winning a computer game.

Re: First inkling that you\'ve won/lost an MP
 

Zeldor:

Carrying over a grievance from one game to another is a violation of Sheap's rules. Of course, not all games are played by Sheap's rules, I just wish they were.

Teaming with the strongest player is not good it you don't have a secret plan to win. But if he is not too far ahead, and you are in a position to, say, snap up all the rear provinces of another nation while the biggest nation is stuck in a bunch of sieges, you may have an opportunity to become the leader yourself. It's really risky to do this, and evil, and everyone will hate you. But hey, being evil can be fun too!

ano:

Yes, it sounds like we've got different goals in playing. I'm not saying I don't care about winning. I always start with a plan to win now. It's just that there are so many obstacles! Those obstacles are AKA other players. When my plan doesn't work out, I just need a new plan. From the historical perspective, my plans have a 0% chance of success unfortunately. However, I still enjoy making my schemes and plans, no matter how remote the chance of victory.

Plus I also enjoy the story of the game. It's not like I'm playing Risk. I am the leader of my nation, and I will lead them to glorious victory, or death! (Most likely death).

And I will get my revenge on Arco for the massacre of the sages! (Because if I didn't, I might as well go play chess.)

Dedas:

Sorry, I misunderstood your post completely! I think I understand now, thanks for the explanation. I often ascribe imaginary personalities to the gods of the other nations. Makes it more fun for me, that's all!

Re: First inkling that you\'ve won/lost an MP
 

Very nice to read all these poignant replies. Thank you all for the responses.

To an earlier point regarding “lost” I might restate that as “when you realized your pretender would not ascend as the One True God”.

I've played a number of MMORPG games and this was my first try at a PBEM game. It's great fun, though hard to explain to the wife (“it's like an international game of Risk with storylines, magic, tons of units, a dominion influence components and...... 1x10e9 ways of winning!... umm, ok , it's not like Risk at all except for the map”)


-SSJ

Re: First inkling that you\'ve won/lost an MP
 

It's probably also true that teaming up to stop the strongest will just replace him with the next strongest. So if you're not second or maybe third why bother.

You could just go AI, when you're far enough behind to be out of the running. But if you're having fun in a war with your rival why not continue.

Re: First inkling that you\'ve won/lost an MP
 

You can't really have winning as your only objective in an MP game, because the chances are strongly against it happening. I think setting yourself to AI as soon as you think you're unlikely to win is a bit unsporting.

Re: First inkling that you\'ve won/lost an MP
 

I've found that the way towards the goal is often more rewarding than the goal in itself. But if you somehow achieve the goal and also took the time to enjoy the way towards it, it will be an even more rewarding experience. So all in all you have very little to lose, taking your time with the turns, relaxing and letting your imagination have its way.

Re: First inkling that you\'ve won/lost an MP
 

I have never set myself to ai in a mp game. While I like to win, if I know i cannot do that, then i am content to be kingmaker or make sure someone else does not win.

In the Big Game I knew from very early on it was unlikely anyone other than LA Ermor, LA Ryleh, or LA Atlantis Allaince would actually win among the 62 nations. But I developed a good hate for an alliance that attacked me in the game and i was just as content with seeing that alliance destroyed as i was with winning.

Also, i enjoy playing. So I am not really tempted to go ai if I can still have an effect on the outcome of the game-whether i win or not.

Re: First inkling that you\'ve won/lost an MP
 

I play to have a good time, mostly. Winning is an unlikely bonus. Surviving to the endgame is fun.

Re: First inkling that you\'ve won/lost an MP
 

> I play to have a good time, mostly. Winning is an unlikely bonus. Surviving to the endgame is fun.

I agree with Gregstrom, except I prefer to die before endgame.

I like local politics and petty wars. In a game I (or my pretender alter ego) would be surprised and annoyed if another nation expected me to attack some kind of mighty far away nation. My war is my fun. A good dominions game are several games in one. Some of these might culminate to a greater epic, but I don't mind a mosaic of politics and lesser goals.

But I believe I'm more of a roleplayer than a cometitive player. Not that I don't like competition, but I prefer it on a regional level, in a global setting so to speak.

Re: First inkling that you\'ve won/lost an MP
 

That's why I usually try to cultivate and grow slights into deep resentments... so when I know I can't win I can play just to tear someone down. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Re: First inkling that you\'ve won/lost an MP
 

Velusion:

And what you do when you have that war, suddenly somene attacks your enemy from other side and kills him in 5 turns, when you were fighting him for 40 turns? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/laugh.gif