Halt Heretic - Opinions
 

Hello ! Im so excited about the newest patch, especially the Halt Heretic ability. What do you think ? Is it a good counter against sacreds ?

Re: Halt Heretic - Opinions
 

It's a bit too early yet to say, at least I haven't tested it yet. Although the +2 bonus that the Lord Guardian gets seems a bit weak, at least if it works like ordinary awe. The reason is that especially sacreds, among all units, have above normal morale.

Re: Halt Heretic - Opinions
 

I just started a game to check that angel, 1-2 hours and I will know a bit more http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

P.S. Hmm... Black Bone captain arrive with Boots of Behemoth, he is size 2. Is it new equipment for him in patch?

Re: Halt Heretic - Opinions
 

Weird. Probably a new bug introduced with the patch.

As for the bane of heresy effect; this one to be meant as a possible way for Ulm to withstand an early sacred rush. The Guardians are excellent at defending castles as well.

Re: Halt Heretic - Opinions
 

If regular units had it, then it would make sense. But Lord Guardian is military capitol only! commander, who will recruit it instead of mages?

Re: Halt Heretic - Opinions
 

With Ulm you need to spam build castles or you will soon be toast, and as (now almost) all mages are non capital only you will have room for to recruit a LG.

Although the regular Guardians doesn't have Halt Heretic they do have Bane of Heresy.

Re: Halt Heretic - Opinions
 

The guardians don't have this ability, only the lord guardian (commander, you may recruit one per turn in the beginning, so you will have less than 10 of them -imagining you know you will be rushed and never build priests or mages- when an ennemy rusher arrives).

So I'm not really sure it's sufficient to stop a sacred early rush (especially when most blessed sacred have 14 or more morale).

ps : not tested so I may be wrong

Anyway the new priests and other new spells give a good boost to Ulm (darts look really awesome for their low fatigue cost).

Re: Halt Heretic - Opinions
 

Provided the ability is indeed effective, I can see a few lord guardians w dual shields on hold blocking lots of sacreds. Backed up with crossbows to do the damage.

But I fear the ability isn´t effective enough to do that.

One alternative would be to skip the Lord guardian altogether and give the HH ability to the regular guardians instead.

Re: Halt Heretic - Opinions
 

And that would mean 10 turns of making 0 research and 10 turns of not getting smiths to forge some stuff for SC that Ulm should rather take, I guess PoD in most cases.

Re: Halt Heretic - Opinions
 

Worthless. Which fits very well, given that 'worthless' is MA Ulm's theme.
So much effort, new abilities, new summons, new weapons... and it all adds
up to 'not nearly enough'.

MA Ulm are like a nation of martial art fanatics in a world where assault rifles
grow on trees.

Oh, in case anyone wonders... The iron angel is nothing much. Nice hps, OK
fighting stats, great magic resistance. But he is a level 8 summon, and he
cannot hold a candle to, for example, a Nifelheim Jarl, let alone a high level
summon from a real nation. And I assume that it is simple sloppiness, but his
uberweapon (which is anything but uber) goes away if you give him a weapon.

Re: Halt Heretic - Opinions
 

Oh, I wouldn´t say that. I´ve had some great times with ulm.

Re: Halt Heretic - Opinions
 

Hehe, in SP I guess http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Re: Halt Heretic - Opinions
 

Once upon the time, I challenged people to duels to show them how utterly
worthless Ulm is. Later, I wrote long posts explaining why Ulm's troops suck,
and backed them up with probabilities. Even more recently, I ran battles in which
Ulm mighty and finely equipped warriors were whipped by non-sacred, build anywhere
troops like principles, men at arms and defenders.

And still, there are those who chime in with 'Oh, Ulm is not so bad'.

So I have decided not to engage in rational discussion anymore. My answer now is
'Shut up you newbie, you have no idea what you are talking about'.

Re: Halt Heretic - Opinions
 

I've already seen Ulm winning in MP, it just need an awake great sage to avoid to lose the magic race, some luck for starting position -not being rushed by a neighbour- and not too strong indies (indie 9 or maps like WoG are not good for Ulm).

As your troops are tough you don't need many summons, so you can keep your gems for some globals and/or forge boosters for all your battlefield mages (once you have the level for magma eruption it's sad to continue to cast magma bolts).

The only big ulmish problem is how slow the infantry is. Instead of any other boost I would have given mapmove 2 to all troops without black plate.

Re: Halt Heretic - Opinions
 

Ulm may not have a chance in multiplayer against experienced players, but it is still one of my absolute favorites.

Re: Halt Heretic - Opinions
 

Is Iron Angel really that bad compared to other units available in MA? I don't remember what angel Pythium/Marignon get at level 8, but I think it's Angel of Fury. One against one, it's Blood Vengeance won't do anything against the Iron Angel, and I think they're comparable besides that. Halt Sacred +8 should stop attacks even against blessed, sacred commanders, though. And as far as national go, the only buff mages I can think of are Deep Kings and Skratti.

The special ability of Guardians' Black Halberds and Iron Angel's sacred fist is 15 armor-piercing stun damage on AoE 1. That means that it works better against light sacreds (anything that is massed) than heavily armored sacreds (sacred thugs). The fist goes away because his whole idea is "strength in self", not "strength via items X, Y and Z". The attack he loses deals pretty bad damage to magic beings and stuns sacreds, but it's not that special - against most things, he's better with a forged weapon.

Iron Darts and Iron Blizzard seem to be about in line with Magma Bolts/Magma Eruption, but I'm not sure how the armor-piercing affects their use or how useful their scaling is.

Re: Halt Heretic - Opinions
 

I didn't write that they have Halt Heresy, but that they have Bane Heresy. Click on the black halberd to see this.

Re: Halt Heretic - Opinions
 

IF someone is too lazy to check, stats of Iron Angel:

63 HP
6 base protection
6 encumbrance [ouch]
Morale 30
MR 21
Reinvigoration 4
Str 22
Attack 16
Def 13
Precision 12
Move 3/11
Ldrship 0

halt heretic +8, flying, FR 50, SR 50, NNE

Built in black steel full plate, black steel helmet, swword of sharpness, divine graps.

Re: Halt Heretic - Opinions
 

Oooh thanks I missed that. It looks like an interesting power.

Re: Halt Heretic - Opinions
 

Ahem, the Iron Angel has
base encumberance 1
base magic resistance 20
base defense 15
base move 3/16
(You obviously observed it in drain dominion and didn't take into account the equipment modifications to the stats.)

At a glance, it's an excellent chassis for the cost. Especially for earth gems, which don't have many good options aside from Gargoyles and those have their weaknesses and require lots of nature gems. Flying, high hp and high MR chassis with some built in resistances... Yummy! (Of course you'll wanna replace his equipment, especially that hideous armor, but with some regeneration and some good gear it will be a nasty piece of work.)

Re: Halt Heretic - Opinions
 

It's nothing but a legend. If you look in the MP hall of fame you'll see 2 ME Ulm victories, and as I doubt that Wraithlord and CKUnknow play in newbie games it was probably in games with (at least some) experienced players.

There was also an uncounted victory of Ulm in one of the first dom3 games -ended by a bug when Ulm was first in gems and research with 4 or 5 globals up- so weak or not in theory, ME Ulm is only beaten by two or three nations for the number of (not duel) real games won (here, but I think it's the place where you find most experienced players).

Unbelievable isn't it ? (as well as Arco still having 0 victory)

Re: Halt Heretic - Opinions
 

i second that Ulm is viable in MP, Now with the new stuff in the patch i think even more

You just have to play them differently like any race in dom3

Re: Halt Heretic - Opinions
 

What's this "Bane of Heresy" thing then?

Re: Halt Heretic - Opinions
 

I think you guys are nuts. Halt Sacred is huge.

Re: Halt Heretic - Opinions
 

I think, especially with these changes, that MA Ulm will be on even footing with most MA races. I plan on playing them as soon as I find the time for another game. I am so excited!!! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/laugh.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/laugh.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/laugh.gif

Tuidjy - we have debated this to death. I won't risk further rational discussion with you. But, surely you must admit that MA Ulm is certainly better than it was before after this patch? And, you wouldn't argue that MA Ulm can't possibly win a competitive multiplayer game, would you? There are plenty of factors that could throw a game towards one faction or another, regardless of the units/mages it may or may not have. I mean, what about good old fashioned luck? MA Ulm isn't so bad, even before these changes, that it had no chance whatsoever.

In that game that I won, I got Olg's Alchemical Device in my capital, which helped me immensely (it was a substantial portion of my income - it was a small map). I also found some excellent magic sites very early on. It was also a victory point game, which meant I didn't have to defeat Jurri (who is an excellent player of course and who was giving me hell during that one).

Point being, if the cards fall your way, MA Ulm can win, there's no doubt. So stop with the rediculous absolutist arguements. And that was before the new changes.

You have been asking for MA Ulm to get some love, and it's finally happened. So why are you still upset? No one is forcing you to play them.

Re: Halt Heretic - Opinions
 

One of Ulm's advantages is everyone thinks it's weak so they don't worry about it. But they don't want to kill it off early, because it makes a good trading partner.
They have a kind of diplomatic advantage. Doesn't always work out, and you have to take advantage of it, but it does help counter balance.

It's the changes to the infantry and armor that interest me. Thematically, Ulm is supposed to have really tough troops and, largely due to encumbrance, they had high end but not exceptional heavy infantry.

Re: Halt Heretic - Opinions
 

The main fault I've seen people do when playing Ulm is that they are not building enough castles; and this nations needs a crazy amount of them.

Re: Halt Heretic - Opinions
 

One thing which is for sure, is that Ulm Reborn the mod nation are seeing an update very soon. It would be interesting to see them up against regular LA Ulm.

Re: Halt Heretic - Opinions
 

thejeff - I agree, I really enjoy the forging bonus from a trading and diplomacy perspective. Even if I'm weak, I enjoy forging items for other people (for a profit) and helping to pick the eventual winner. But of course you can also amass large stacks of gems that help you to win, too.

Tied in with this trading edge, is another advantage for taking a rainbow pretender with Ulm. With a rainbow, you can say to potential trading partners: "I'll accept 6 gems of any type for such and such item", so you can get better deals than you might otherwise because you can find a use for any kind of gem that people might have too many of. Does that make sense? Not sure if I phrased that correctly.

Tuidjy views this as being a "forge *****" and will have none of it.

He's not completely wrong on that. Forging items for other people is not generally considered a path to victory in this game. Thing is, I enjoy doing it. I do think it is a nice advantage as well. Not quite the same caliber advantage as having a 400 gold recruitable mage, or excellent sacreds or elephants with which to crush your enemy, but it does help you win and it is a fun game within the game for me.

MA Ulm is maybe not for everyone, but with this new patch, maybe they will be better respected and rack up some more multiplayer victories.

Re: Halt Heretic - Opinions
 

The Halt Heretic power of the lord guardians are not supposed to stop bless rushes. It is the power of the Iron angel, and just a bonus for the lord guardians.

It is the Black Halberds thet are supposed to stop early sacred rushes (sand perhaps late ones as well) .

Halberds do 15 ap aoe1 stun regardless of hits, meaning massed unarmored units get lots of fatigue. Jaguars and vanir are prime targets.

Re: Halt Heretic - Opinions
 

Yeah, personally I kinda like picking up nations that are considered underpowered and figuring out how to play them in such a way as to make their strengths shine. I'm not the best player out there and only have a couple wins under my belt, but I've had very strong showings with MA Ulm (tied for second), MA Atlantis (solid second) and Eriu (came out the gate so fast 6 nations ganged up on me in year 2...oops). None of these were newbie games, all of them were large games and I always find it amusing when somebody claims that some nation is unplayable...or that I'm a newbie and don't know what I'm talking about. Use a bit of creativity, know your limitations and have fun with it. Who wants a game where all the nations play the same?

Re: Halt Heretic - Opinions
 

I'm all with you Baalz!

Re: Halt Heretic - Opinions
 

I think Ulm being redone is responsive to the cries of the mp community. So thanks KO. Not sure anything helps Ulm survive an early elephant rush, but Ulm can and should take an awake pretender sc to deal with this possibility, just as Abysia and other nations are forced to do.

I guess if every nation had an elephant counter then the value of elephants would be reduced.

My minor suggestions:

1. Move Iron Angel to construction, as that is a more likely path for Ulm to traverse-and it is Iron(a construct).

2. Given Ulm's huge weakness to magic, Temper Will is 5 spots down a tree that Ulm does not research. If it cannot be moved to a more friendly research path, like evoc, then would it be amiss to make it available at 4 rather than 5?

Ulm really gets nothing of value at Thaum 4, and the astral races get mind burn at 2 and paralyze at 4, and antimagic at enchanment 4. It really makes it hard on Ulm to have to go to thaum 5 early in the game, when you also need summon earth, constr 4(earth boots, dwarven hammer(2)), blade wind, etc.

And make no mistake Ulm is still fairly helpless against astral races until it gets temper the will. But it really cannot afford to run straight to thaum 5 out of the box.

Re: Halt Heretic - Opinions
 

> I think Ulm being redone is responsive to the cries of the mp community.

A bit perhaps. Since I've heard the cries for the last couple of years it has probably affected my view on Ulm. I think I have agreed more or less all the time though. I got some ideas this summer, but have been up to other stuff that felt more interesting, like Serpent Cult, Bogarus and other projects.

Someone mentioned Ulm when I was free a couple of weeks ago, and I got inspired.

Re: Halt Heretic - Opinions
 

I'm very excited to take a look at this patch when I get home.

Do the black halberds only work on sacreds then?

Re: Halt Heretic - Opinions
 

All this sounds awesome, and I'm pretty curious on Gath.

Hey llamabeast, please check your inbox. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Re: Halt Heretic - Opinions
 

Inbox checked. Messages from Dedas: 0.

Re: Halt Heretic - Opinions
 

Weird... I sent two messages. I will try to resend.

Re: Halt Heretic - Opinions
 

Oh right yeah, sorry, I got those - they were a little while ago. I guess I was just being unresponsive, sorry (well, I knew I would start the game as soon as I had a chance but didn't bother telling you that). http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...es/redface.gif

Re: Halt Heretic - Opinions
 

The special effect (fatigue) should only work on enemy sacreds.

Re: Halt Heretic - Opinions
 

Nub question: Can someone clarify what, if anything, was changed about plate? Is Black Plate more viable now?

Re: Halt Heretic - Opinions
 

Less fatigue penalty, less defense penalty.

Re: Halt Heretic - Opinions
 

Black Plate lost one or two points of encumberance, got one or two points of protection and the defense malus went down by a point or two. Slight changes, but especially the encumberance change helps a lot.

As for the units, all troops with Black Plate got +1 morale, giving Black Plate infantry 11 and pikeneers 12 morale.

Re: Halt Heretic - Opinions
 

That helps a lot. May at least make Ulm's troops competitive. I would have been tempted to call the Black Plate troops elite, bump their cost up slightly and give them better attack and defense. But the morale and armor improvements are very nice.

Re: Halt Heretic - Opinions
 

They are not supposed to be elites, just armored.

Re: Halt Heretic - Opinions
 

I understand that's the current state.
It was a justification for making them a little better, besides the armor. Along the lines of "Don't waste the good armor on the regular troops."

Can't wait to try out the new version.

Thanks

Re: Halt Heretic - Opinions
 

It sort of puts the black plates on an elite-ish level, for heavy inf, though.

I'd like to see the results of the heavy inf comparison tests with the new black plates. Black plates v an equal gold value of principes, for example. I bet black plates would do significantly better now.

Re: Halt Heretic - Opinions
 

It should be pointed out that Ulm now has a level-2 priest and can now actually cast Sermon of Courage, so the morale issue is much less of a problem.

I'm a little surprised Priest Smiths don't get any randoms, though. The sacred researcher and stronger Iron Darts/Blizzard are nice options to have, but to get the random picks for forging you need to build lots of Master Smiths. (From the description it also sounds like the Priest Smiths don't share the immunity to Drain.) It's nice, though, to have capital-only units worth getting.

Inevitable question: Black Lord vs. Lord Guardian for early game thug.(All this cheap forging needs to be put on SOMETHING, right, sinces its a big part of Ulm you'd prolly want to get them into action before powerful summons are available.)

Re: Halt Heretic - Opinions
 

Ulm's level 2 priest is cap only and competes with their best researcher, who is actually drain immune, the Smith Priest. I don't see people actually building them and using them for sermons.

Re: Halt Heretic - Opinions
 

Some thoughts:

Iron Darts/Blizzard are EH spells. If you make a prophet out of an earth mage, he or she will be able to cast Iron Darts and Blizzard. For example, you could prophetize a witch and have her cast Eagle Eyes for +5 Precision bonus. It should be nice for non-area spells.

Priest Smith has only 15 leadership instead of 45, and only 9 MR ! Not counting randoms, Priest Smith has the same paths as ordinary smith, and spellcasters tend to have very good MR. What's wrong here ?

Siege Engineer, Smith, Priest Smith have 10 HP, but all other Ulmish commanders have at least 12 HP. This includes black priests, who spend their time looking important instead of heavy physical work or warfare !!

Ghoul Guardians don't have castle defence bonus. Intended ? It may have been this way earlier.