.com.unity Forums - Jarl vs Oni

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- - Jarl vs Oni (http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/showthread.php?t=37929)

Let me first apologize in advance if this topic has been discussed before, or if it just seems silly. If it helps, feel free to consider this a light-hearted mental exercise on the whole thug/SC issue.

Anyhow, here's the deal: in your opinion, who makes a better thug/SC, a Niefel Jarl, or a Yomi Dai-Oni?

Why do I want to compare these two? Well, they're both EA, cost 500 gold, and are death-enabled (for Soul Vortex), not to mention on the large size, strong, and with good HP. Oh yeah, and they're both sacred.

My two cents? Well, the Jarls're a bit bigger (size 5), have a few more HPs, and are much more likely to have access to a quality bless (N8 or 9, plus perhaps W?, E?, and ??). Only one in three will be able to cast SV w/o boosters, but that third can be used potentially 'as-is' - just script Blessing and SV, and send them to town. If you want, for extra kill power, a Frost Brand is a cheap 5 water gems.

They can also self-buff with Breath of Winter and Quicken Self. Or, if you wanted to save time and avoid your opponent mucking with their preparations, I suppose you could equip them with Boots of Speed and a Rime Hauberk, and get them into the action quicker. And as Niefelheim is an astral power, MR items are readily available, if you wanted to fully kit them out.

On the other hand, every Dai-Oni is Soul Vortex capable. Their equipment isn't so out-of-the-box capable though. Their armor is cumbersome (they'll rack up fatigue until they find someone to 'vortex' off of), they don't have a shield (unlike that nice Ice-Aegis the Jarls come with), and are unlikely to have access to a good blessing, seeing as how Yomi has no recruitable sacreds (does anyone out there design a pretender just to boost their Dai-Onis?).

Dai-Oni do have access to fire and earth magic though. Fire Shield, Phoenix Pyre, and perhaps even Iron Skin, could even things up tremendously.

They also have Fear - although there I have to wonder - certainly the Fear effect must increase their survivability, but in a thug/SC, I'd often rather have the enemy stick around to get killed, rather than just running off.

Of course, with their magic paths, Yomi has a lot more options when it comes to kitting out their thug/SCs effectively - Shield of Gleaming Gold comes immediately to mind, among other things.

But then, isn't it more cost effective to be able to send out a thug with little or no equipment (like the 1/3rd of Jarls who have D3), than to spend lots of gems to make an effective combatant?

I guess I personally feel that it's better, whenever possible, to spend gold, rather than gems, and therefore Jarls, at least those with D3, have the edge, being easier to use 'as-is'.

But maybe there are ways to equip a Dai-Oni, and/or script their fire and earth (and perhaps air?) potential into a more devastating combination? They do seem to have more choices. Oh, and I almost forgot, Oni do have that extra ethereal life too.

Dang, lots to consider... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/smirk.gif

Anyhow, thanks in advance for your input.

*** Disclaimer: I never played nor faced Niefelheim, so my views might be a bit skewed ***

In general I would have to agree with you, and consider the Niefels to be better SC's, for the reasons you mentioned: Better out of the box, (making them more useful for early expansion too) more likely to carry a good bless, and also their innate cold aura. (this is major against chaff) They also have 50% more hp and 6 more strength. Finally, they're not deamons, so they're not vulnerable to deamon counters.

The Dai Oni do have a better potential as battlefield mages though. While I do believe you want most of them on the frontline, having the option to have a number of them casting battlefieldwide spells like earthquake, rain of stones, darkness and firestorm/heat from hell, possibly with their immune/immunized SC equiped companions acting as bouncers gives them extra power and flexibility in the late game.

With Jarls, you can get a great bless and have good scales.

An imprisoned monolith gets you:

nature 6/ astral 9 bless
order 3
productivity 2
cold 3
growth 1
luck 1
drain 2

Alternately you can juggle some of the scales around, lose the luck, get rid of the drain etc or even get some earth magic in there for reinvigoration.

My point being, I don't understand why people take nature so high on Niefelheim blesses, I think you lose out on quite a bit just to have some giants go berserk. If you want it that bad, just slap a berserker pelt on them.

Intresting. I tend to like earth blessing in big sacreds. But eventually magic resistance become important.

Jarl vs Oni? That goes to the Jarl for most of the game. Once the Oni has some serious buffs up(phoenix pyre, soul vortex, fire shield, invunerability, summon earthpower, not in that order) then you might have a better SC there, but I still prefer the Jarl for the early-mid game advantage and the fact that they are still good later.

Besides, you should count the fomorian giants (cyclops). That are also from early era.
Maybe the Basalt kings too.

I'm curious to see how a jarl would fair against his cost in the newfangled Ulmish Guardians. I could imagine him passing out and in a couple turns the guardians doing the same.

I doubt anyone would Wish for a jarl in Middle Era. I'd be interested in seeing how a Seraph fares, however...

I would not launch anything sacred against the new guardians. Keep in mind, the
fatigue effect triggers always, they do not have to land a blow. Any sacred
SC, including a Seraph will get swamped and will faint in two-three turns. Of
course, those standing over his corpse are likely to be burned and blinded...

But a few naked Skrattir will have a good time (Quicken self, breath of winter, change shape)

By the way, casting Breath of Winter with a Niefel Jarl is impossible.

Quote:

By the way, casting Breath of Winter with a Niefel Jarl is impossible.

No, stop.

Is twist fate better than berserk, though? Because I'm pretty sure you can argue that 5% more regen (3-4 more hp/turn) is going to buy you more than +1 MR. And you don't need the S9 for late-game astral, since that chassis has a misc spot for a booster.

Oh yeah, and yes you can stick a berserker pelt on them, but that's a spot that has a lot of other potential uses.

For that matter, is e4 worth it on that pretender? By fiddling with scales you can pretty easily get S9/N9, but then you could E4/S8/N8 or E4/S9/N6 or S6/N9 (though then you give up on arcane nexus and wish on your pretender).

Quote:

Foodstamp said:
With Jarls, you can get a great bless and have good scales.

An imprisoned monolith gets you:

nature 6/ astral 9 bless
order 3
productivity 2
cold 3
growth 1
luck 1
drain 2

Alternately you can juggle some of the scales around, lose the luck, get rid of the drain etc or even get some earth magic in there for reinvigoration.

My point being, I don't understand why people take nature so high on Niefelheim blesses, I think you lose out on quite a bit just to have some giants go berserk. If you want it that bad, just slap a berserker pelt on them.

Quote:

Tuidjy said:
I would not launch anything sacred against the new guardians. Keep in mind, the
fatigue effect triggers always, they do not have to land a blow. Any sacred
SC, including a Seraph will get swamped and will faint in two-three turns. Of
course, those standing over his corpse are likely to be burned and blinded...

But a few naked Skrattir will have a good time (Quicken self, breath of winter, change shape)

By the way, casting Breath of Winter with a Niefel Jarl is impossible.

Maybe your Jarl was wearing a Rime Hauberk? That would make it impossible, because it's the same effect. But a naked Jarl has no problem casting Breath of Winter, and gets +6 to his Chill aura when he does so.

Quote:

Xavier said:
Is twist fate better than berserk, though? Because I'm pretty sure you can argue that 5% more regen (3-4 more hp/turn) is going to buy you more than +1 MR. And you don't need the S9 for late-game astral, since that chassis has a misc spot for a booster.

Oh yeah, and yes you can stick a berserker pelt on them, but that's a spot that has a lot of other potential uses.

For that matter, is e4 worth it on that pretender? By fiddling with scales you can pretty easily get S9/N9, but then you could E4/S8/N8 or E4/S9/N6 or S6/N9 (though then you give up on arcane nexus and wish on your pretender).

Really it depends. In single player I would probably take the higher nature bless. BTW with your preferences, you can still hit Wish and Arcane Nexus with two rings your pretender is able to forge out of the box.

On Niefel Jarls you can go several directions with your bless, the monolith was just an example. I play a variety of pretenders and blesses with Niefelheim.

The ones that I think don't add much value are:

Any level of Fire: Your already one shotting enemies, fire is not needed.

Any level of Air: Air shield is ok, but some of your jarls can cast the best version of it from turn one of the game.

Any level of death: There is not much difference between an enemy that just got one shotted and one that just got one shotted and now has a limp.

Any level of blood: Instead of hitting that militia guy for 30 damage, you just hit him for 33.

The ones that give the most value to jarls are:

Low/mid nature: Yay, regen.

High Nature: Berserk can be a death sentence to jarls in certain situations, but in single player this added bonus is pretty handy.

Any level of Astral: Yay, Magic Resistance.

Any level of Earth: Reinvigoration, +4 protection is pretty damn nice as well.

Mixed feelings:

Water bless: The most uber of blesses, but I normally cast quicken self, so I dunno. If I use the Son of Fenrir pretender often I will double bless with something like 9 water/6-8 nature.

Xavier, I guess the point I am trying to make is, I am not trying to compare berserk against twist fate. I don't like berserk personally. I like twist fate as an added bonus, but not something I would base any bless strategy around, its just a side effect of that particular pretender design.

Damn. I just tried it, and the Jarl in question will cast it if it is the
second or third spell, but not if it is the first one. What the Hell?

His buddy will cast it every time. Hmm... the only difference is that one
is empowered in Astral. Anyone got any idea what is going on? Why bother
testing before you post when the test is messed up.

By the way, for Niefelheim, I prefer a low key combination of nature and earth.
Level six at most. I usually end up with a S6 pretender, but I do not think
that the Jarls benefit from the +2 to magic resistance from the blessing.

ok cool, that all sounds quite reasonable. But keep in mind the monolith only has 1 magic item spot, for a misc - so no you can't get up there with 2 rings. 1 is your max.

Also...I was just doing some testing with astral...in the first few turns with a self-blessed jarl...MR wasn't going up? It said:
Base Magic Resistance: 18
Blessed +3
Current Magic Resistance: 18

What gives?

What is your magic/drain scale?

-2...but 0 in one of the provinces and -1 in the other. same turn, both jarls gained 0 MR after blessing themself, although it says +3 blessed, the total is the same as the base amount.

+MR from Astral blessing does not go above 18.

orly? so...astral bless is...useless on jarls, which have base 18? is that documented somewhere, or is it a bug?

Quote:

Xavier said:
ok cool, that all sounds quite reasonable. But keep in mind the monolith only has 1 magic item spot, for a misc - so no you can't get up there with 2 rings. 1 is your max.

Also...I was just doing some testing with astral...in the first few turns with a self-blessed jarl...MR wasn't going up? It said:
Base Magic Resistance: 18
Blessed +3
Current Magic Resistance: 18

What gives?

Max MR from S bless is 18, it's even in the manual, page 49.

Oh well, atleast it still tops the Giants out on MR.

thanks for pointing that out...

...and I agree with foodstamp - lame. if you can push defense skill and/or protection to insane levels, why not MR? a D6 mage with a focus and starshine cap (they increase penetration, right?) spamming disintegrate should EASILY be able to zap an MR 18 Jarl, no? So why can't the Jarl be blessed up higher?

Starshine cap does not increase penetration unless you're casting Astral spells and the path increase gives you a boost.

Eye of the Void, Rune Smasher are +2 penetration, Spell Focus is +1.