Advice for Bandar Log in Dawn of Dominions map
 

First off, I'm a pretty new player to Dom, but *really* enjoying it - great game, great community here.

Here's my question: I'm getting to know the different races in SP. I've mastered the 'Bless' strategy of the Van/Hel. I've got the missile/infantry strategies of Ulm down. I've won a couple times as Ermor, Sauromatia, and Agartha.

Now I'm working on the Bandar. I've read the strategy guide, but I'm still getting slaughtered by C'tis or Hel - does anyone have any tips for playing the apes on this map?

Biggest problem: my missile troops aren't a match for Hel's ethereals or C'tis' chariots - I can't get the kills in before my morale fails and the monkeys run for the trees. I've also tried the Yaksha swordsmen with a bless, but can't make them in enough numbers to tip the scales.

Thanks!

Re: Advice for Bandar Log in Dawn of Dominions map
 

I presume you played all of these in Early age, so your monkey nation is Kailasa, not Middle's Bandar Log.

Manual has army rout rules on page 80. Study them and try to see why your troops are running. Is it because 75% of your army has died? In this case, buy less Markata, and more quality troops.
Kailasa can't recruit good priests, so you might have trouble casting Sermon of Courage or Fanaticism. Try to keep your prophet in important battles, and if at all possible, try to fight battles in your own dominion. The +1 bonus of your own dominion makes wonders if compared to -1 of enemy dominion. Also, recruit independent priests to do all the blessing. You should use your capital to recruit researchers, not bless-casters for your armies.

Have you tried magic-heavy strategies yet? Kailasa will get AWESOME Gandharvas from Conjuration. They are sacred and have protection 18, and multiple attacks. Recruit cheap researchers (Gurus or those sacred Astral 1 mages), send one Guru site-searching ASAP, and keep expanding. If you find independent mages that aren't sacred, build a lab and also recruit them. Lizard Shamans, amazon Sorceresses, perhaps the Hoburg mages as well; there are few. Try to get to Conjuration 5 as fast as possible while still being able to expand using conventional armies. If you meet strong enemies, stall until you can summon Gandharvas. Depending on what gems you have, you might also be able to summon Naiads (nature 3) or Naiad Warriors (prot 15, mapmove 2, amphibious), or some Troll Kings after Conjuration 6.

Alternatively, you could go first for battlefield magic. Thaumaturgy from level 2 onwards gives Astral mages ever better spells to cast: Mind Burn, Paralyze, Soul Slay, Enslave Mind - it's fun. Evocation gives Arcane Probing for finding Astral sites easily, but other than that it's more about elemental burnination. Blade Wind is especially good, and Falling Frost at level 5. Summon Earth Power from Conjuration will make Blade Wind even more awesome, and if you research Construction, Earth Boots and Water Bracelets can be used to boost your spells for a very good price.

Re: Advice for Bandar Log in Dawn of Dominions map
 

You're right that I haven't tried any magic-oriented offenses. Most of the races I've won with have been pretty conventional armies.

The other problem I've observed is that on that map, at least, there is no reasonable PD for Kailasa that has a chance of fending off the low-level probes (20-40 combatants) that the computer likes to send across the border. By the end of the second year you have to have one army just to defend the border and chase raiders. By then, a PD of 25 or so doesn't stop C'tis or Hel, and you don't have the numbers to fight off a real army when it shows up.

Thanks for the direction - I'll give it a go. If there's interest I'll post my results too-

Cheers-

Re: Advice for Bandar Log in Dawn of Dominions map
 

High PD is a playstyle sin that's favored in games against the AI. Try to make without it.
If your troops have problems, try an awake or dormant pretender which makes a good thug/SC. E2,A1,S1,W1 are good for self-buffing.

Re: Advice for Bandar Log in Dawn of Dominions map
 

Just give up now. Even against the ai, your PD will make you lose.

'nuff said.

Re: Advice for Bandar Log in Dawn of Dominions map
 

I still don't understand what's the fuss about monkey PD. On one hand, "don't use PD, ever, except to see what enemy is throwing at you, and level 1 is enough for that", and on the other " Even against the ai, your PD will make you lose." Is it a joke or something?

Re: Advice for Bandar Log in Dawn of Dominions map
 

Yes, it's a joke. There was an extremely long and heated discussion about Monkeys will NEVER WIN BECAUSE OF THE PD (caps not mine). And about 3 or 4 threads were actually started on the topic (at the same time by the same person). There was a slight communications breakdown. All about monkey PD and how monkeys will never win BECAUSE OF THE PD.

So, if you see a reference to Monkey PD now, you can pretty much assume it's a joke. Especially if it's in a poem. Or if there are a few extra '!' or '!!!!!' or even a '!!11!!!!!111!!ELEVEN!'.

Re: Advice for Bandar Log in Dawn of Dominions map
 

I knew about the threads, but I didn't bother reading them. I didn't have enough free time then.

Re: Advice for Bandar Log in Dawn of Dominions map
 

My reply was no reference to that thread (this time). It is a common misconception from players who purely play SP games to rely on PD to do the fighting for them. This might be due to the problems of enemy armies, which seem to always be one step ahead, plowing a wake of devastation through the player's provinces while getting away from fighting a decisive battle against the players forces that are chasing them. Using PD to "prevent" this leads to a bad playing style. My advice was not to fall for this.

Re: Advice for Bandar Log in Dawn of Dominions map
 

Oh no, I've created even more confusion with my poor explanation!

And here was Mr_Dark just wanting some good advice, which he got from you. So:

* People joke about monkey PD for historical reasons

* It really is not worth buying more than one point of in my serious opinion. But always buy at least one point of PD.

Re: Advice for Bandar Log in Dawn of Dominions map
 

11 points can also be handy for the possibility of catching stealthy units(that starts at 10 or 11, right? Or am I just completely wrong here?) and stopping the occasional random event or remote attack.

Re: Advice for Bandar Log in Dawn of Dominions map
 

Starts at 10, but I've never caught a thing with PD.

I've only played one MP game with Bandar, so I don't have much experience with them. But I did not buy more than 1 PD in that game. I don't think monkey PD will do well against Barbarians or Call of Winds.

You could use it to get some chaff into a defensive fight, I suppose.

Re: Advice for Bandar Log in Dawn of Dominions map
 

Barbarians are actually the only thing monkey pd does well against. Markata have hight defence, so the barbarians have trouble hitting them. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Re: Advice for Bandar Log in Dawn of Dominions map
 

PD can be usefull to lower unrest, starting at ten. Costs less in the long run than having an army patrolling (or just less micro...), especially in ennemy dominion

Re: Advice for Bandar Log in Dawn of Dominions map
 

I didn't know that PD helped lower unrest.

More generally, 1 PD is essential, anything beyond that is situational. Don't rely on it to stop any significant enemy attack, but it's worth it if it can hold off most random events and the lesser remote attack spells and small raiding parties. Especially early in the game. Even if all it does is make your enemy send less, but larger, raiding forces. That's more cost for less provinces.

Later on, when raiding parties tend to be thugs who can take any reasonable PD, it does become almost useless.

Re: Advice for Bandar Log in Dawn of Dominions map
 

According to the manual PD patrols to find spies but I never seen it lowering unrest alone.

(and with the new stealth level of spies, you need far more than 10 PD to catch some)

Re: Advice for Bandar Log in Dawn of Dominions map
 

Those are open ended die rolls. It doesn't happen often, but it is possible.

I've had bards (30 stealth!) caught by just PD and a few patrollers.

Re: Advice for Bandar Log in Dawn of Dominions map
 

heh - I didn't mean to go too far into the vagaries of monkey PD, though I did enjoy the poem in the haiku thread.

You've all sussed the problem - I usually use a PD of 15, which for most races in SP is enough to discourage barbarian invasions and catch the occasional spy/assassin.

For those of you wondering, my last game on Sunday I knocked off C'tis, which put me in contact with Ermor. PD was catching a spy or assassin from the computer every other turn, and I still lost border leaders. It is worth it to put some PD points into places that border races with active assassins when playing the computer.

back on track - does anyone have any battle-specific spell combinations they like?

Re: Advice for Bandar Log in Dawn of Dominions map
 

> I didn't know that PD helped lower unrest.

Neither did I.

Re: Advice for Bandar Log in Dawn of Dominions map
 

Well, if we're talking about Bandar Log, specifically (the Middle Era guys), then your Rishis can open some serious smackdown on people by simply stealing all of their armies. At least 1/4 of your Rishis can throw Enslave Mind, and another 1/4 of them can throw Charm. This is my 'normal' strategy with them; rush to Thaumaturgy 6 for Enslave Mind (along the way picking up 'intermediary' spells like Mind Burn, Soul Slay, and Paralyze). Then I would get Gandharvas (Conj 5). But seriously, 4 or 5 Rishis throwing Enslave Mind hurt the enemy rather nicely, due to the way the combat rules work.

Now, more generally, my brother Wyatt twigged me to the Light Bandar Infantry. Let me pull up their (vanilla) Sticks/Stones stats...

Dam: 12
Rng: 15
Prec: 7
Ammo: 30
#Att: 2

Compare this to a shortbow:

Dam: 10
Rng: 25
Prec: 9 (on the same unit)
Ammo: 12
#Att: 1

And here's a comparison to a javelin on an Ermorian unit:

Dam: 13
Rng: 10
Prec: 8
Ammo: 2
#Att: 1

Sticks and Stones are actually quite powerful when thrown by Bandar. So an army of Light Bandar backed up by Rishis can actually be rather nasty.

(Note: If you increase the Bandar's strength, then the range and damage of the Sticks/Stones increases, similar to a javelin.)

Anyway, just some thoughts.

Re: Advice for Bandar Log in Dawn of Dominions map
 

I'll support the suggestion of battle mage Rishis. But don't forget - with 4 communion slaves you go from 1/4 casting enslave mind to all of them casting it. More slaves may be needed to help with fatigue, but more can also help with penetration if you add enough.

Re: Advice for Bandar Log in Dawn of Dominions map
 

Very cool VedalkenBear - that's exactly the kind of analysis I was hoping for. 'Fire nearest...' shall be the order of the day. Thanks!

Re: Advice for Bandar Log in Dawn of Dominions map
 

Whether Light Bandar Infantry are better than armored bandar infantry is another matter entirely. 20 gp for a unit that deals more damage on lower range than two shortbowmen? For a nation for whom those shortbowmen would be stealthy?

Re: Advice for Bandar Log in Dawn of Dominions map
 

It doesn't. But positive dominion does lower unrest, and negative dominion raises it.

Re: Advice for Bandar Log in Dawn of Dominions map
 

Endo: The fact that the Atavi are stealthy is largely a moot point, to me. Of course, I'm always open to a strategy that would use that fact.

Generally, however, the Bandar have quite a few things going for them as opposed to the Atavi. One, the gold cost difference is very small (20 vs. 18) if you look at the relative number of attacks. Two, they have a buckler, and while bucklers aren't the best shield in the world, they are at least a shield. Three, they have a 12 base morale as opposed to the Atavi's 10 (IIRC). Coupled with their higher hp and better prot (meagerly better, but better), this should help on the 'wound' morale checks, especially from a counter-battery fire type of engagement.

Another thing to keep in mind is that if you use mercenaries (and I nearly always do, in SP), then more bandars = less atavi = more of overall force being mercenaries with generally better morale, per figure.

Mr. Dark: I would _not_ use 'Fire Nearest' with the Light Bandar. Just don't give them orders at all. Another plus to having 'missile infantry' (like javelinmen) is that you can put them in huge blocks and the ones behind will throw missiles while the ones in front will melee. This is of limited benefit with javelins with their 2 ammo, but Sticks/Stones' 30 ammo makes it quite a bit better.

And finally, I'll note that I suggested using this strategy with Rishis doing Enslave Mind. Unit-stealing effects generally delay the opposing army since they have to kill their old comrades and so this 'spreads out' the advance giving the Light Bandar more time to 'clean up' with their missiles.

Edit: Took a look at Kailasa in particular. Something to note is that your Yaksha can innately throw Strength of Giants (which as stated above helps range and damage). Also, Yakshini are innate clam factories. As such, you could take a Mother of Rivers pretender to get the water gems to start clamming _very_ early. This gives you the fuel to run just about everything, but especially lots of Gandharvas. Also, apparently the Atavi archer morale is _8_, not 10 as I thought.

Re: Advice for Bandar Log in Dawn of Dominions map
 

Well.. No one mentions this... but....

I buy 2-3 pts of pd, or 11 or 20-22. Last number soley to find scouts.

One thing I never find anyone mentioning..
Leave a few undead with a priest - and the markata morale will be fine.... For example

10x50 +50*8 = 15 morale. Better morale than knights.. and with the small size, they will swarm like mofos.

Leave the troops unassigned - and the markatas will move to the front due to their higher move.

Re: Advice for Bandar Log in Dawn of Dominions map
 

I think you need units to be in the same squad to average. And I think morale 50 does not count towards the average squad morale, but 30 and 99 does. Maybe it's just the mindless units that don't count? I'd run a test to confirm but I'm a bit busy at the moment. Has anyone tested this already?

Re: Advice for Bandar Log in Dawn of Dominions map
 

Mindless definitely does not average with other units.

I believe 99 (berserked) does not either.

Re: Advice for Bandar Log in Dawn of Dominions map
 

So I guess I have to suppose I'm wrong on this one, so unusual for me http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif