Tartanians
 

I always seem to miss something crucial, so let me ask if I have this straight.

The end game strategy of Tartainians seems to be as follows. Race up the Conjuration tree, then start pumping out one Tartainian a turn. 20% will be commanders, so try to GOR as many of the others as you can.

Forge lots of fun combat toys, with horror helm to boost their existing fear and some protection being on the list where possible. Send them out to create havoc, they are big thugs.

Some will have magic and will either become great SC or forgers/summoners, depending on your paths and needs. These guys are the gravy and will win you the game. Mix and match with other death related things (BOT for example) as desired.

Does any one know the % of commanders who are not feebleminded?

Have I missed something important?

Re: Tartanians
 

You can always heal them, either with healers, Chalice or GoH.

Re: Tartanians
 

Are there any healers that can heal undead? I thought you were limited to the Chalice or Gift of Health.

Re: Tartanians
 

Hmm... right, I guess I did write smth stupid.

Re: Tartanians
 

I thought tartarians were undead ? (emphasis mine)

Re: Tartanians
 

Chalice and GoH. If you're lucky enough to find Lyfjaberg, it *might* heal them, but I have no idea.

Re: Tartanians
 

Lyfjaberg?

Re: Tartanians
 

It's one of the few magic sites that can heal afflictions.

Re: Tartanians
 

Ok, so GOH would be the most likely, as I have raced up COnjuration and probably am a long way from COnstrution 8.

More generally, is that the basic strategy? Pump them out and GOR them as fast as you can, then overrun the enemy?

Is there a viable response to this strategy? Build your own I suppose. Teleporting SC killer squads.

Re: Tartanians
 

A couple of dozen Enslave Mind casters can sometimes work.

Re: Tartanians
 

There are five or so different sorts of Tartarians.

First are the Titans: Kings (Scythe) and Queens (Lance). The kings have 3+2+2 random magic picks, the queens 3+2 picks and full slots, making them good GoR candidates in case you need magic diversity or powerful casters. The Kings easily have a magic power of 5 in one of the paths, very powerful.

Then there are the Tartarian Cyclops. Two variants: One with a Lightning weapon and 3E2A magic, making it a very good SC chassis with good self-buffing out of the box: Earth Power, Mistform, Mirror Image, Invulnerability... and Cloud Trapeze! The other has 4E magic, so a little less versatile but more powerful. He has already very good gear and wouldn't require you to necessarily forge equipment for him. Nice for throwing Earthquakes at enemy armies, as they'll do him almost no damage at all, especially with a Ring of Regeneration or so. Both have full slots and poor amphibian, meaning that they can go underwater without extra items!

Next are Monstrum, Monstra and Spirit. They are less powerful than the above, since they are missing some slots. All are missing foot slots, the Monstrum even has no slots except for a head slot. Monstra doesn't have a body slot, too. The Monstrum has flying, though, and the Spirit a 5% regen and poor amphibian. The Spirit has fixed 3E2D picks, the Monstrum 2+2 random picks and the Monstra 2+2+1 picks.

So in general, Monstrum and Monstra are the weakest. Spirit is nice with it's builtin regen rate, which can be improved further with artifacts, but it takes a Flying Carpet instead of Flying Boots, which would mean one less misc slot. The Titans are the best magicians and the Cyclops the most solid SC chassis.

If you have the means to cure them of their afflictions, then they offer the best for their gem price. Otherwise Abominations and Iron Dragons might be good alternatives if you are making more Astral or Earth gems instead of Death. The best thing about Tartarians is the slots that they have.

Re: Tartanians
 

Ich,
What an awesome summary,
-SSJ

Re: Tartanians
 

I always thought the Ctis unique summon, if it could fly, would be a decent counter to tartarians.

All in all, i think an across the board 35 percent reduction in tartarian hps is warranted. And id like to see their summoning cost be raised to 30 a piece so the endgame is not covered with them.

Re: Tartanians
 

When you don't have the chalice, GoH or the ultra rare healing site tartarians aren't that good, due to their afflictions.

To get a tartarian not blind not feebleminded with his two arms etc... you may have to summon a few.

And 4/5 cost 30 gems with the GoR (and more if you had to empower someone / forge big boosters for one or the other spell).

In fact my complaint with tartarians is they are a little too much random. For 50 gems you may get 5 SCs already commanders with good magic and no terrible affliction in 5 casts, you may get the same but need 100 nature to exploit them...but you may also simply have 5 blind-feebleminded giant meatshields.

In extreme luck or unluck cases, the randomness of tartarian summoning may decide who wins in a tied endgame.

I'd like to see a way to make this less random (ie : scales influence, fewer feebleminded in magic scale, chances to have commanders based on luck, etc) ; or a ritual-buff spell (like dragon master) for tartarian summoners not to summon more tartarians but to have more chances to get usefull ones.

Re: Tartanians
 

But with low cost of tar gates, players with goh or chalice have a tremendous advantage in the endgame. While they should have some advantage, i think the advantage is a bit too much.

Maybe there should be an undead healer summons in the game for some balance.

Re: Tartanians
 

Might be interesting if the growth scale effected how likely they were to be feebleminded.

Jazzepi

Re: Tartanians
 

Undead healers wouldn't be balancing, they'd be a catalyst.

Re: Tartanians
 

I'm glad that there's really only two effective ways to make Tarts. It keeps everyone's nation from becoming clones of each other in the end game, and fighting over the chalice artifact and GoH global is more important if natural healers, which anyone has access to via Faerie Court, is only important if natural healers can't heal undead.

Jazzepi

Re: Tartanians
 

"But with low cost of tar gates, players with goh or chalice have a tremendous advantage in the endgame. While they should have some advantage, i think the advantage is a bit too much."


--> If you think that.. invest in getting GoH or the Chalice.. noone is stopping you

--> GoH can be dispelled, or you could cast it

--> Chalice could be wished for

Re: Tartanians
 

> Maybe there should be an undead healer summons in the game for some balance

You are thinking backwards. Maybe undead shouldn't be healable at all.

The chalice is not intended to be a cup used by dead gods to quaff the water of life (although that description sounds a bit cool). It is intended to be a goblet that brave knights drink from.

Re: Tartanians
 

Those old dead gods sure are insidious, corrupting bastards, aren't they?

Re: Tartanians
 

Sure are http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

I've thought about adding a special kind of insanity for them that is incurable.

Re: Tartanians
 

More insanity is needed in this game! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Re: Tartanians
 

Currently tartarians during late game is what I see in high usage during MP games and SP games. Perhaps make a change where it's more difficult for undead to heal, thus fewer complaints about changing their healing status.
One other change should be vampires receiving recuperation which matches their history as well.

That's another good idea, if these are undead pretenders from long ago then it makes sense they may retain some memories.

Re: Tartanians
 

Random event : your tartarian claim godhood. He succeeded to convince your army to worship him and now use the province Hubbarton(124) as his capitol.

(add a random nation run by an impossible AI in 124, with your troops there as starting army and the tartarian as pretender) http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/laugh.gif

Re: Tartanians
 

Aren't vampires immortal? Then theyll recover from afflictions anyway.

Re: Tartanians
 

-> If you think that.. invest in getting GoH or the Chalice.. noone is stopping you

--> GoH can be dispelled, or you could cast it

--> Chalice could be wished for

I am aware of that. What you may not be aware of is that all races are not created equal with respect to getting the chalice or goh, or wishing. (and in every mp game i have played i have had 1 or the other at one point in the game).
But it does limit the choice of races I will play in mp.

It would help balance the races that get no astral magic, like say Ulm or Vanheim, to be competitive in the end game,
when they are facing races that can already wish every turn with their clams if the chalice and goh did not heal undead.

It is adding insult to injury that the s races can wish for the chalice, and pretty much exclude any race like Ulm from ever touching it. Add to it that the chalice/goh make the best endgame units much better, and it is a very great advantage.

Ko's idea of permanent insanity/afflictions for the undead is a good one. Equally good though is increasing the cost and making all of them come out with no afflictions.

Re: Tartanians
 

Alternatively, one could just remove the Chalice from the game, much like people sometimes take Astral Vortex out of the game through a mod if they think it's too strong.

I don't think that this is necessary, though. Late game needs *some* powerful endgame weapon to settle things, if this are Tartarians now or Abominations or something else. If you nerf Tartarians, something else will take their place.

Re: Tartanians
 

I am not necessarily calling for a nerf of tartarians. But tartarians with feeblemind, missing an arm, crippled are not equal to tartarians free of afflictions.

I think the chalice and goh are already potent enough without also being the only 2 methods to heal the best endgame unit.

Reasonable minds can differ. My opinion is just that-my opinion. It is not like the game is broke as is, it just places imho undue importance on getting either goh or chalice.

Re: Tartanians
 

Can you wish for Health? If so, would that heal afflictions. Just curious.

Re: Tartanians
 

No. You can wish for the Chalice. (wink wink, nudge nudge)

Re: Tartanians
 

Say no more!

Re: Tartanians
 

btw, what happenes if you put in "sldkfjsdf" as your wish? will something happen? Will something happen if you put a single letter or number? Can you put in absolutely nothing?

Re: Tartanians
 

"I cannot give you that"

Re: Tartanians
 

When a small number of spells completely dominates the (end)game, it limits viable strategic options in the game. For me, fewer viable options = worse game. Other (than death or astral) magic paths also very high-level spells, which require lots of gems, strong mages and research. If cost of a spell doesn't even remotely correlate to its value, something is very wrong. (I tried Creeping Doom yesterday)

Re: Tartanians
 

Astral Vortex??

Do you mean 'Vortex of Returning' or 'Arcane Nexus' or 'Astral Tempest' or is this a spell from a mod??


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_ I agree with the last post from B0rsuk


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Re: Tartanians
 

Considering the very limited base that one can get and outfit Tartanians, isnt it the other players in the games fault for allowing this? Everyone knows when GoH is cast and could get rid of it. Also if you know a certain faction has lots of Death and Nature, other players should gang up on them if they dont dont want to lose. If that player can make it to the end, get tartanians out and kitted, its the other players fault for allowing this.

Re: Tartanians
 

What other common game winners are there in non-victory point MP games? Do nations with other paths have alternative ways to win? I would agree that more options does make things better. At the same time, there need to be some knockout options to win the game, as stalemates are no fun.

Re: Tartanians
 

ehm every race can get GoH or chalice.. just set your pretender up to get it IF you think they are that big a deal http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/laugh.gif, as I said INVEST to get it if you WANT it.

Re: Tartarians
 

I think the balance problem isn't that tartarians are good and cheap. It's normal that researching level 9 magic and having level 7 mages to cast rituals (+level 4 in another school + an artefact/global eventually) give some advantages.

The problem is no other path gives comparable non unique units (and even many uniques are inferior due to lower hp and lack of feet or other slots). Level 9 constructs, abominations, tarrasques, may be cool, but even GoRed they don't have magic to buff themselves or destroy legions of chaff.

Adding an endgame cost effective SC summon for several paths, and/or magic powers for more creatures once GoR is used would be a good thing for balance.

Re: Tartarians
 

I would've preferred if Tartarians were simply made less powerful. Dominions3 has enough SC's as it is. Not everyone enjoys playing with dolls.

Re: Tartarians
 

"Playing with dolls" is a necessity in endgame, you need SCs to carry your artefacts and survive mass destruction spells (or perhaps you may succeed with troops summonable en masse, with more than 20 hp, 20 or more protection, several resist, magical weapons... the problem is... you also need death 7/conjuration 9 to cast legion of wights).

Edit : I wanted to say it's normal that with level 9 research and level 7 skill (tartarians) you beat what other can get with level 8 research and level 5 skill (elemental royalty etc). The less normal thing with death is you also beat anything an elemental/nature only nation can use with level 9 research and level 7+ skill (and you don't fear their mass destruction spells with your SCs).

Re: Tartanians
 

Arcane Nexus. My game is broken, don't blame me. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Re: Tartanians
 

I agree with Twan : Level 9 + D7 + 10 Death gems + 40 N Gems + GoR / Chalice is already expensive (I dislike CBM for increasing the cost to 25 gems)

maybe less random (once I got a 7A tartarian...), no affliction or decrease the cost of Iron Dragon / Tarrasque / Abo to 10 gems too is an idea

Re: Tartanians
 

May I suggest another solution:

Limit the number of Tartarians.

This solution is, in my opinion, simple and elegant. It still makes Tartarians something worth striving for, yet it doesn't make it the only thing you need to win. The mechanic for this already exists in the game so this concept isn't going to be alien to anyone. Besides, how many ancient dead gods enslaved to the underworld can there possibly be. Set the limit to between eleven and twenty and I'm sure things will be just peachy.

Re: Tartanians
 

> Equally good though is increasing the cost and making all of them come out with no afflictions.

Thematically abhorrent idea http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif Like making knights without horses or armor.

Re: Tartanians
 

I am still learning the game - several of my MP games are around mid-game stage. I never planned to summon tartartians and have no way to do so.

Am I screwed?

These types of threads that suggest one strategy that everyone is striving for are somewhat disturbing as it suggests that all the time I place into strategizing in the early to mid game is really meaningless.


http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/rant.gif

Re: Tartanians
 

Unscrew!

If the early game goes good you can achieve anything.

Tartarians are not imperative for winning.
They definitely are not imperative for having fun, although they can be fun.

Don't worry too much. Start to worry if you reach end game with one player trying a tartarian strategy. Find his weaknesses etc, but until you stumbe across them you should stay calm.

And there is always 'blight'. Most fun spell there is http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Re: Tartanians
 

It's not really hard to developp death 7 with a non death nation if you can have access to a natural death 2 mage (a death amazon with a lucky random or an empowerement) and astral 5 (or astral 3 + earth 2 to make the 2 astral boosters, then the rings of sorcery and wizardry).

(in death you need to make a booster, then summon some spectres to have a D3 one, with the booster he can forge a skullface ; he now have d5, you add the two astral rings and he can summon tartarians ; you may also use a lich for natural d4 and just one ring)

If you play a non death nation without astral it's far harder and you should rather target elemental royalty or blood uniques for SCs.

Re: Tartanians
 

That depends on how big the game is and how many experienced players are in them. Games on small maps with, say, 5-7 players never reach level 9 spells (or shouldn't, at any rate).

In a big game on a big map - if you really want to win you do need to think about late-game strategy right from the pretender design stage on.

A Tartarian factory is not the only viable late-game strategy, but as you can guess it is one of the strongest.