Whips and spears on a thug for repelling?
 

Hi, I'm still trying out the demo and experimenting with making a thug. Would a Vine Whip be useful as a defensive weapon if it is able to entangle anyone who attacks? I tested this out, but I don't seem to entangle anyone who attacks. I thought combining this with a Vine Shield might be useful. The Vine Shield seems to well, but the whip by itself only entangles one enemy at the time.

On a related note, I've been trying out a Lightning Spear and it doesn't seem to be effective for repelling. Can someone clarify how repels work and what would be the a good defensive weapon? I've tried the Frost / Fire Brands and the Sword of Swiftness, which seems to be almost as effective while giving some extra defense. The thug in question has 20+ strength so it pretty much kills anything in one hit, but I'm wondering what weapon and equipment combo I can use to keep it alive and affliction free longer.

Re: Whips and spears on a thug for repelling?
 

Repels aren't terribly useful. Try a fire/frost/shadow brand along with a shield - probably charcoal, but vine works too. Throw on boots of quickness and he should be killing 2 squares full of enemies per turn and either burning or entangling (great with trample. Consider boots of the behemoth, possibly with jade armour) anybody who attacks.

Re: Whips and spears on a thug for repelling?
 

Quick answer:

Repels are dependent on opponent morale, so won't be effective on high morale enemies. They also are less likely to work on each attack beyond the first. As thugs are frequently surrounded by a swarm of enemies, repels probably won't be your best choice for protection.

For kitting out in the demo... Vine Shield or Eye Shield, strong armour, something to stop arrows, a ring of regeneration to stop afflictions and a Frost/Fire Brand to rack up kills more quickly.

Re: Whips and spears on a thug for repelling?
 

Repel from a whip with capped damage 1 won't get through the enemy armour and so won't repel anyway, I believe.

Remember repel needs:

Longer reach than the attacking enemy
High attack value in order to pass the roll to 'hit' vs their def
High power to beat their armour and deal the 1 damage
Low enemy morale for them to fail the check they get when they take that 1 damage and not attack you

So basically it sucks. It does improve stuff like pikemen and spearmen vs the morale 9 barbarians, because they have bad morale, shorter weapons and virtually no protection. But even there it isn't as good as having a ranged weapon. So you can see even in an ideal situation it's pretty rubbish.

Re: Whips and spears on a thug for repelling?
 

Morale check to abort attack happens before the roll for damage, so repel can keep opponents from attacking even when you use a whip.

Re: Whips and spears on a thug for repelling?
 

Are you sure? I thought repel needed to deal the 1 damage in order to cause the moral check, thereby making heavily armoured troops immune to most repel.

Quoting the manual isn't going to convince me otherwise (it's wrong too often), an in game example would though.

Re: Whips and spears on a thug for repelling?
 

I have a quick follow up question... when you have a unit with multiple weapons (each with different weapon lengths), such as a knight attacking a spearman, would the lance have no chance of getting repelled, but would a broadsword and a hoof do get chances of repel?

Conversely, does the knight always repel with his lance?

Re: Whips and spears on a thug for repelling?
 

I tested it, with a commander that had 1 str, 25 attack, 0 defense and a weapon with -10 damage, damage cap 1, 25 attack against random indies. According to log, all attacks were repelled.

659 striking with weapon Spear. att15 def15
Commander of Ulm repells Militia (Spear repelled with Sword of Sharpness)
660 striking with weapon Spear. att15 def5
Commander of Ulm repells Militia (Spear repelled with Sword of Sharpness)
661 striking with weapon Spear. att15 def-2
Commander of Ulm repells Militia (Spear repelled with Sword of Sharpness)
662 striking with weapon Spear. att14 def2
Commander of Ulm repells Militia (Spear repelled with Sword of Sharpness)
665 striking with weapon Spear. att13 def-2
Commander of Ulm repells Militia (Spear repelled with Sword of Sharpness)
667 striking with weapon Spear. att29 def-2
Commander of Ulm repells Militia (Spear repelled with Sword of Sharpness)
668 striking with weapon Spear. att19 def10
Commander of Ulm repells Militia (Spear repelled with Sword of Sharpness)
670 striking with weapon Spear. att16 def3
Commander of Ulm repells Militia (Spear repelled with Sword of Sharpness)
679 striking with weapon Broad Sword. att13 def-7
Commander of Ulm repells Heavy Infantry (Broad Sword repelled with Sword of Sharpness)
680 striking with weapon Broad Sword. att15 def8
Commander of Ulm repells Heavy Infantry (Broad Sword repelled with Sword of Sharpness)
681 striking with weapon Broad Sword. att26 def-10
Commander of Ulm repells Heavy Infantry (Broad Sword repelled with Sword of Sharpness)
682 striking with weapon Broad Sword. att18 def-3
Commander of Ulm repells Heavy Infantry (Broad Sword repelled with Sword of Sharpness)
683 striking with weapon Broad Sword. att15 def0
Commander of Ulm repells Heavy Infantry (Broad Sword repelled with Sword of Sharpness)
684 striking with weapon Broad Sword. att17 def-5
Commander of Ulm repells Heavy Infantry (Broad Sword repelled with Sword of Sharpness)

Re: Whips and spears on a thug for repelling?
 

The moral check comes before the opponent takes the damage. The idea is that the opponent sees that charging you will result in injury, thus they make a moral check to be brave enough to take the hit in order to do damage. Also, I'm pretty curtain that a brave opponent takes only a point of damage regardless of things like armor and damage.

You'll know when you've repelled an attack when you see your unit use an attack graphic on the opponents turn.

I think repel is much more useful then most people think. Individual units will fail moral checks more often then you think. For example, Awe +0 forces the same moral check and everyone knows how effective that is. It may be less useful for thugs, but size 2 sacred spear warriors are quite effective both offensively and defensively when given a fire bless.

Re: Whips and spears on a thug for repelling?
 

Repels are based on weapon length. You only get to repel when your weapon is long then the opponents. Also, each attack is resolved separately. So when you attack with multiple weapons you only make moral checks for weapons that are shorter then the opponents longest weapon. Let's also not forget that the opponent first needs to be able to hit you.

Re: Whips and spears on a thug for repelling?
 

What makes repel weaker than Awe is the fact that you get -2 to repel confirmation attack rolls after each repel. That means that you need both high attack AND long weapon - while usually long weapons have attack malus. I think repel works even when the attack hits the shield. The chance of dealing the 1 point of damage will be negligible, but the fact that a damage roll is generated at all means that it's considered a hit. In this regard, repel works better against heavily-armored, shielded units than high-defense, unarmored units with equal morale.

I might make a little mod that gives all long weapons attack bonus equal to (length - 2). Spears (len 3) would get +1 att, glaives (len 4) would get +2 to a total of att 1, etc. I'll only do that if someone would like to test it. Any volunteers for repel enchancement mod?

Re: Whips and spears on a thug for repelling?
 

My first rule of defense is play to unit in questions strengths. The second rule is counter your opponents attacks, but thats a later lesson.

Anyways, if the thug has high defense, work on improving that. For example, a Niefle Jarl has an incredibly high base defense of 13. OK, thats not incredibly high, but its still good. Especially when you consider what bonuses they have access to. They all have base water magic of 3, meaning at least +3 defense there. They also get another +1 defense per each tick of the cold scale. They can also cast personal quickness for another +3 defense. Throw in a sword of swiftness (which has great synergy with personal quickness) for + 4 defense there. Other options include the Cat Charm for another +4 defense. This is before we factor in a shield's parry value and the effects of the chill aura on reducing enemy fatigue and thus attack skill. The rule of thumb is 30+ defense is untouchable by normal troops. This rule also applies to protection. So, if your thug has high base protection and access to earth magic, maybe protection is the route to go.

However, what inevitably kills units is fatigue. Meaning if you want to keep the thug alive when taking on hordes of barbarians, you have to give them some reinvigoration items. Nature magic has the best revig items, though earth has the girdle of might as well. Alternatively, for sacred units you can use an earth bless for some revig.

As for the best combo, focus on sustainability and not so much pure damage. Luck is ALWAYS a good thing, since it doubles a units survivability no matter what the attack. Luck is strictly the providence of Astral Magic. For high HP units, regen becomes very powerful and useful in this regard. Once again, nature has the best regen items (Hydra Armor and Ring of Regeneration). Regen also reduces the liklihood of afflictions.

Exact kits are going to vary per unit strengths and the resources of the nation, but for the above mentioned Niefle Jarl I like 1 sword of quickness, 1 horror helm (adds fear, great for PD), Boots of the Messenger (+4 revig), 1 luck amulet, and 1 anti-magic amulet combined with a (6N6E4W bless, +10% regen, +3 revig, and +2 defense). Jarls Casts at least personal quickness. Armor and shield as available. Both eye and vine shields are good options to have, though the default Ice Aegis ain't bad. Armor should be low encumbrance.

Re: Whips and spears on a thug for repelling?
 

Comments on repel in general - I think it's not as useful for a single powerful unit that will get swarmed (as in real situation, I believe), but it's quite useful for formations of pikemen and such against low morale chaff, like some PD.

I played as MA Ulm recently and observed combats closely. The guardians, when fighting some wolf tribesmen actually did the repel animation very often, and in case of low HP chaff, even that 1 damage on successful repel maybe important. Moreover, it's and extra layer of defense that really extends life expectancy of the troops.

So, IMO it's not worthless at all.

Re: Whips and spears on a thug for repelling?
 

How is 1 damage going to be useful, even against 10 hp chaff?

If the guardian hits them he's basically going to kill them whether they have the full 10 or they're on 9. I mean I know it's better than nothing, but it isn't much better.

I don't think anyone is saying repel is useless, just that it isn't a major consideration when picking troops.

Re: Whips and spears on a thug for repelling?
 

That one damage could be very signifacant. Read page 80 of the manual about "Heavy Losses".

Re: Whips and spears on a thug for repelling?
 

I think if the target of the repel fails the morale check and does not attack, its morale goes down? I think I have seen this happen before. Like when a unit has fear the units surrounding that unit can get reduced morale if they fail the fear morale checks.

If the target passes the morale check and attacks it might get 1hp damage if it passes protection. As Dedas said if you keep getting 1hp damage it counts as a wound in the heavy losses requirement for another morale check.

I guess it could all add up if you had lots of repels.

Re: Whips and spears on a thug for repelling?
 

1 hp wouldn't count as a wound on anything except for some insects or animals. It needs to have 80% of it's hitpoints or less. Humans tend to have 10 or more.

If multiple successful repels are occuring on your troops, and that is enough to route your army, then the problem is most likely caused by there being a significant gap in the quality of your troops and the enemy troops.

Overall, I have to agree with Sombre on this one, repel isn't a major consideration when picking troops, and perhaps it should be made somewhat stronger.

The most thematic suggestion I could make is that repel has a bonus vs. mounted units and vs. trampling. Then at least it would be situationally useful. Furthermore, while I'm aware that 0 length weapons are easier to repel, I think that aspect should be expanded, so the overall difference in length is used, so for example a pike repelling a dagger is significantly more likely than a pike repelling a spear.

Re: Whips and spears on a thug for repelling?
 

If trample could be repelled at all, even by something like pikes, elephants would be much, much weaker. They have poor morale AND poor defense, and an elephant trying to trample a squad of pikemen would probably have to pass 3 repel checks. If en elephant does manage to get through, his friends might not be so lucky and he's all alone next to 20 or so pikemen.

Not that I wouldn't like to see units capable of repelling tramplers. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...ies/tongue.gif

Re: Whips and spears on a thug for repelling?
 

Speaking of repel... I once had an SC pretender holding off enemy armies in my dominion. My opponent liked casting swarm for some reason, which summons a bunch of 1 HP insects. Mostly used as a screen, the pretender still killed all the insect when they attacked due to repel. Made it much easier to move onto the important targets.

Re: Whips and spears on a thug for repelling?
 

Saulot,

The manual states: "A wound is simply 1 or more hit points of damage that reduces a unit to 80% or less of its normal hit points.." "...every hit there after (even for 1 point) will continue to count...".

So the 1 hp repels will count as one wound once the unit is below 80% health. Thus creating more morale checks.

On the other hand I still agree repel is kind of weak and should be expanded on as you said.

Re: Whips and spears on a thug for repelling?
 

Hmmm, I always thought that certain weapon properties should be triggered on a successful repel damage. Taking damage while being repelled by a thorn staff seems like it should subject you to poison damage, a flambeau should triple the 1 damage vs undead, etc. This would give a nice boost to weapons which are rarely used such as the thorn staff and bane blade, while in cases where this would be overpowering (like the magebane or frostbrand) the effect could be considered to need to charge up and only be effective for a full attack.

Re: Whips and spears on a thug for repelling?
 

I've seen thorn staff give poison when repelling.

Re: Whips and spears on a thug for repelling?
 

It would be a bit harsh to invoke the area-1 save-or-die on a repel from a banshee's wail (length 6). http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/laugh.gif

Re: Whips and spears on a thug for repelling?
 

What settings did you use to get this information?

Also, regarding the one point of damage on repel,I was thinking that combining this with a weapon with special effects like a Vine Whip or Lightning Whip might increase effectiveness. Also, what if a Frost Brand caused AoE damage on repel? Of course that seems like a bit too much power, I'm not sure that the game mechanics work this way...

Re: Whips and spears on a thug for repelling?
 

I used the settings included in your quote:

"I tested it, with a commander that had 1 str, 25 attack, 0 defense and a weapon with -10 damage, damage cap 1, 25 attack against random indies. According to log, all attacks were repelled."

In other words, I changed Commander of Ulm to:
str 1
attack 25
defense 0

and forged him a Sword of Sharpness, which I had modded to be:
damage -10
capped at 1 damage max
attack 25
defense -10
huge length, I think I used 7

This produced a unit with:
attack 50,
defense 0,
weapon long enough to repel spears and
total damage (str + weapon) -9, incapable of dealing damage

Re: Whips and spears on a thug for repelling?
 

I suspect he was asking how you turned on the debug log report.

Re: Whips and spears on a thug for repelling?
 

Oh. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...es/redface.gif

If that's the case, you do that by adding something like -d or -ddddd when running Dominions. If you run it from a command line, you just type Dom3.exe -ddd, but otherwise you have to do a shortcut. In my case, on WinXP, the shortcut reads:
"E:\Dominions 3\dom3.exe" -dddd
for the location of the executable. You have to add quote marks around the path if it contains space or other special characters.

A log.txt file will be written on your base Dominions 3 directory, and shows what the program has "thought" lately. If you view a battle, you get a detailed view of what happened in the battle. The amount of d-letters affects the level of debug used, so your report might be slightly more or less detailed than the one I got, but I don't know the details about that.