Scales You Should Never Take?
 

Just wondering if there are any scales that are too be avoided at all costs (aside from the unique exceptions like Ermor and Death or Niefel and Cold)? I recently joined an MP game and am playing Drain-2 (and I am not Ulm) and wondering if I made a horrible mistake as my research slogs along at an unbelievably slow pace. I am playing a strong bless nation so my troops are fine but fear my mages will be casting magic missiles when others are busting out the meteor storms (to borrow a D&D analogy).

I also have come to fear negative Luck, though I know many take it in conjunction with Order. It seems to hone in on my natural unluckiness [img]/threads/images/Graemlins/icon22.gif[/img] and hit me extremely hard.
I never take Death either though have no basis for that - it just seems so unpleasant http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Re: Scales You Should Never Take?
 

I do not like death or misfortune, but they should never be taken together.

I actually won a mp game with 2 drain(fixed). Was dead last in research, but that does not matter for some races, especially bless nations early on.

If you take 2 sloth, you should try to trade/make skull mentors/ lanterns etc.

Re: Scales You Should Never Take?
 

I am pretty much like you it seems when it comes to scales.

Here are my preferences from one extreme to the other.

Order/Turmoil:

I am very comfortable tilting my scales anywhere in this column, from order 3 to turmoil 3, but I like to have luck 3 with turmoil 3.

Production/Sloth:

Once again I am willing to go prod 3 to sloth 3 depending on the nation I am playing.

Cold / Heat:

Nation dependent, if a nation has no cold/hot preference sometimes I will still tilt the scales a little to help cold blooded creatures etc (Agartha).

Growth/Death:

My comfort range for this scale is neutral if no old mages, +1 growth or above for nations with old mages. I only take death for freespawn nations.

Magic/Drain:
The farthest I will ever go with drain is 2, and I normally stop magic at 1 but if I have a lot of extra free points to spend, I will boost it to magic 3 sometimes.

I hope that helps http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Re: Scales You Should Never Take?
 

I think perhaps Xietor meant 2 drain.

Re: Scales You Should Never Take?
 

I tend to get some points tilting the temperature scales in standard nations with no special temperature preference.
I dislike death just for thematic reasons. Even in MP.

Re: Scales You Should Never Take?
 

Drain 2 isn't a bad choice if you have powerful mages (especially out of capitol). It's the worst scale if you have only very bad researchers out of capitol (ie : drain 2 is a defendable choice for Atlantis EA, and a very bad one for Atlantis LA).
Drain 3 is always a bad choice except for drain immune nations.

Death isn't a bad choice if the game is short (ie : on a small map or victory condition someone will fulfill around turn 50), it's start to be bad for normal victory games on big maps, and more if your nation use old mages.

Turmoil is a bad choice if you don't take luck 3.

Temperature +/- 1 (compared to prefered one) is usually a good choice ; level 3 (in the good direction) may be good if your nation prefer a temperature at 1 (ie : cold 3 for Utgard).

Misfortune is a bad choice if you don't take at least Order=(your misfortune scale). And it's more safe to have Order > (your misfortune scale).

Re: Scales You Should Never Take?
 

I almost always take 2 drain with MA Pangaea. It adds to their already good mr and I cannot pass up 80 points for minus 1 research. Their research sucks anyway, so i just resign myself to being last before the game starts.

Re: Scales You Should Never Take?
 

What is "2 drain(fixed)"? Was there a bug with Drain 2 that was previously fixed?

Also, I read somewhere that Death + Misfortune unlocks some nasty events. Do any other scale combinations unlock "special" events?

Re: Scales You Should Never Take?
 

I had said sloth, inadvertently, then after llamabeast corrected me, i went back and changed it to say drain. Though i did have 3 sloth and 2 drain in that game . heh.

Re: Scales You Should Never Take?
 

I find that no negative scale is so terrible provided you match them well to your nation. I find Death isn't really that bad, particularly with nations like LA Ermor, LA R'lyeh, EA Agartha, and EA or LA Mictlan.

To be honest, I dislike Misfortune much more then Death. At least death can be compensated for. Misfortune on the other hand can serve up disasters that can't be seen ahead of time.

Re: Scales You Should Never Take?
 

I often take death if I've got no old mages, but this does lock you into a fairly aggressive play style. So long as you're more or less constantly expanding I find the loss of income isn't very much...particularly if you conquer a neighbor who had growth scales. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Re: Scales You Should Never Take?
 

Here's my take on the scales
Order: Sweet.
Turmoil: Passable with Luck 3, anything less is not hot.
Productivity/Sloth: I take sloth very often in order to get more design points.
Heat/Cold: I almost always take one scale more than the nation's preference.
Growth: I'm starting to think this is the most useless scale, it just doesn't give any tangible benefits soon enough.
Death: This, on the other hand, starts to feel like a no brainer. I think death is good choice for every nation except for those with heavy blood element but even blood nations can get away with it in small game.
Magic: If the nation I'm playing has cheap sacred researchers, I always aim for magic 3. Magic 3 also has a very significant effect on spellcasting fatigue. Magic 1 is my default setting for nations with no cheapo researchers.
Drain: I think this a very very bad choice, unless your mages are immune to the effect (MA Ulm, LA Man).
Luck: Good but it's hard to get points for it except by taking turmoil.
Misfortune: Is BAD. I never take it because I always seem to get some bad unrest event on turn 2, which slows my early game very seriously and therefore has long-reaching consequences (this happens even with order 3).

Re: Scales You Should Never Take?
 

Death unlocks or makes more common: plague events (bad!), famine events (bad!), possibly undead attacks (Ermorian cultists or something, "one of your counts has revealed himself as a vampire" but that might also be Magic), a wealthy prince has died (few thousand gp and a magic item or something like that).

Growth unlocks: Ancient Presence attack (kills almost all population, very bad but very, very rare; also needs magic). Also rare immigration events and such.

Production unlocks/makes more common: all mines (permanent gold income or resource boost), genius prospector events (+200 or more gp), possibly the merchants' guild event (+income).

Sloth unlocks: ???

Order unlocks/makes more common: increased tax (200-1000 gp), probably prevents some bad events (unhappy peasants leaving, some barbarian attacks?). Castle events are very rare and probably require Luck and order and/or production, depending on the spesific event. "X has finished the construction of a ring wall" might be production, "one of your bailiffs has built a castle" might be order, but this is just guessing on my part.

Turmoil unlocks/makes more common several attack events that need unrest with other scales. These include barbarian and knight attacks. Some of these might also require misfortune scales.

Magic: allows for all kinds of attacks by magical creatures like Trolls and ancient presence Caspar of the Cave (troglodytes and mage attack, but also create +1 earth gem site) and such, sometimes with other scales; makes gem events much more common; allows for various mages to join your empire (may require other scales, such as Order or growth or death, for spesific mages).

Drain: can destroy a lab, lose gems

Re: Scales You Should Never Take?
 

In my opinion, there's nothing wrong with a little misfortune in the base game. When you start playing with mods, though, especially something like Worthy Heroes, luck becomes more important.

On heat, I play like Zenzei: take one more than you need, and take one even if you don't need it.

Re: Scales You Should Never Take?
 

I personally am scared of misfortune, although my fear is probably unfounded. I will take misfortune-1 if I have at least order-2 or -3, though. Sometimes misfortune-2, but I tremble reading my events each turn, fearful of that turn when the hammer falls. I know it's out there. Waiting to get me. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/eek.gif I will never, ever take Misfortune-3. I don't care how many points it gives me.

Death I think is a great idea if you plan to rush. It's basically free points if you aren't thinking long-term. Then have such a big edge that you can win even when death bites you in the butt. Although I am not much of a rush player.

Drain is fine for me, it gives you magic resistance, right? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif Make sure to build your expensive mages for research purposes, drain affects them less than the cheap, low research mages (8 research -2 is still decent, 3-2 is not worth doing). And make research booster items.

Sloth is like almost always worth doing.

Heat/Cold is nation specific.

Turmoil is just about never worth it, unless you combine with luck, and even then it can be crippling. Although like with Pangea, if you are getting Menaeds from turmoil, then it suddenly becomes good.

Re: Scales You Should Never Take?
 

drain 2 is only -1 research, which is why it is a good deal for some races that do no not depend on magic for survival.

Re: Scales You Should Never Take?
 

I play most of my games with Order3, Sloth2-3, Temp 1 off, Growth 1, Misfortune 3,
Drain 2 or Magic 1. I cannot complain of my results :-)

Right now I am subbing for someone who took growth 3. Late in the game, I am
enjoying the income, but I know that there is nothing I can do if someone
decides to hit me with population killing spells. I firmly believe that
growth and death should influence population killers in the same way that
temperature and magic influence other spells.

Re: Scales You Should Never Take?
 

Wow, great idea Tuidjy. Growth should definitely lessen the effect of the black deaths, blights, etc. That would be awesome. Growth could use a boost too, and that one makes perfect sense.

Re: Scales You Should Never Take?
 

Order-3, Growth-3, heat/cold-0 are the gold maximizing scales. Taking additional hot/cold nets you -5% gold, which ain't good. Especially considering Order usually accompanies Misfortune causing fixed income losses (200 gold to repair vital equipment!). Meaning, thinking in terms of margins, the felt effect is more than just 5%.

Combining Turmoil, Misfortune, and Death is suicide. I doubt you'll be able to go 6 turns with out recruiting becoming impossible at your home province. Death and Misfortune is pretty bad itself even with order, but the effects might be delayed longer to let you get set up.

As for magic and drain, yes the largest effect these scales will have on your game is on your research. However, keep in mind magic scales also effect MR and spell casting fatigue. If you're up against LA Ermor, it might be worthwhile to consider magic scales for the sole purpose of making his undead units easier to banish.

Re: Scales You Should Never Take?
 

people say to always use order 3 misfortune 2, or else luck 3, turmoil 3. But I I am using order 3 and luck 3 in a current game, and have found the combination quite effective.

Re: Scales You Should Never Take?
 

Order/Luck is very good, but also very expensive. Most nations have trouble getting the points for it.

Re: Scales You Should Never Take?
 

are there any side effects to taking heat/cold scales (besides what's listed: - gold/supplies)

If you take 3 heat/cold to fund 3 order + growth (split up however you like), you will make a net gain in gold (especially considering the growth scale over the long run) and break even or just under on supplies. On top of that, taking 3 heat/cold is really only like taking 2.5 heat/cold (giving you a .5 scale in points worth) because half the time that scale doesn't match dominion, so if it is already maxed out in your dominion, you get the points for it but it will never randomly (or by seasons, whatever) go higher than three; and will often the time be under three (thus you only take a 2.5 effects worth of negative scale for 3 scales worth of points).

Unless there is some unstated side effect to having a very high heat/cold, this just seems like a no-brainer to take.

Re: Scales You Should Never Take?
 

You're not necessarily funding order with those 120 points, if you've bought an expensive pretender. Effectively, you're buying 120 design points by paying a 12.5% penalty on your gold income. Whether that's a good idea or not depends on how much you need that gold, and what you're buying with those points.

One point in favor of temperature-3 scales that you don't mention is that if you have an SC god with immunity to your temperature scale, he won't suffer the encumbrance penalty that most indies or armies will. And he might also get an improved aura or extra power.

Re: Scales You Should Never Take?
 

I tend to take death all the time. I do not consider myself a rusher, but unless you continue to expand some one else will and you have lost. SInce you have to expand if you are a long term player and not comfortable with a petty war with your annoying neighbour (which I often appreciate more) you have to take scales and a god thet is initially strong, and that means a death scale for points.

So a death scale is actually a good way of long term planning. As long as you don't get stuck in a war there is no reason not to take it. If you on the other hand feel satisfied and complacent after having taken another nation your death scales might take effect. Then you know you are not making enough war. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Heat might be a no brainer unless you want as much income as possible, or if you end up next to abysia or some such.

Re: Scales You Should Never Take?
 

In case you didn't know, that encumberance penalty is +2 enc for everyone without fire/cold resistance, as appopriate, when fighting in extreme temperature. I think it's heat 2 or cold 2, but it might be heat 3/cold 3 as well.

Cold scale will hose cold-blooded creatures, strengthen Chill, weaken Heat, strengthen Murdering Winter cast at you (bad!), and change Water Elementals into Ice Elementals. Heat scale will do the opposite, except that I'm not sure if Heat scale makes Flames from the Sky etc more powerful.

Re: Scales You Should Never Take?
 

Remember summer, winter, and that the scale is capped at 3. Taking your base temperature is -2.5%, one scale adds -2.5%, subsequent but not capped scales are -5% each, and the capped scale is -3.75%, unless it's also the first in which case it's just -1.25%! Being one scale off is usually a good idea.

Re: Scales You Should Never Take?
 

I often take Misfortune 3 Order 3 scales. I won about 30%-40% of MP Dominions games I've played over the last few years. Misfortune 3 is not really as scary as many people believe, and sometimes you can even turn it to your advantage.

Re: Scales You Should Never Take?
 

I have to disagree with the fast expansion theory in mp games. I think steady expansion may be better. If you top the chart in provinces, you are often torn apart by the dog pile.

And fast expansion with poor defenses really means nothing as you can lose those provinces fairly easily. In a 10+ mp game, the longterm income you throw away by taking death rather than growth is significant.

There is a chart someone made that had the turn when 3 growth provided as much income as 3 order. forget the turn number, but it was not super high.

And I never take an awake pretender(though i am picky of the races i play too), though i will only take an imprisoned one if i am playing a good bless nation. With a sleeping pretender there is almost never a need to take d sclaes.

Re: Scales You Should Never Take?
 

I did the growth and death charts. Search for "Growth and Death by the Numbers." The break even point for choosing Growth-3 instead of Order-3 is turn 43. Coincidently, the fall behind point for Choosing Death-3 to pay for Order-3 is also turn 43, assuming you don't get any plague events, which is an enormous assumption.

Of course, thats just theoretical speaking. The real power of Growth is to combine it with Order to really rack up the multipliers. If you happen to have old mages to worry about, it pays for itself in other ways as well.

Re: Scales You Should Never Take?
 

But in addition to these calculations one should also take into account that extra 200 gold in the beginning of the game "worth" significantly more to the player than the same 200 gold much later.