Gath, dev diary or something
 

I started to write this post as an answer to Wraithlord, but I figured it would be better to place in a new thread.

I have long waited with Gath, since I'm very fond of ancient near eastern myth. I have always felt a bit worried that they would not become what I imagined, so I've waited. From time to time I have done some research, but never very focused. A couple of weeks ago I got inspired and did a lot of research and begun with descriptions. It was about at the same time as the 3.15 was in beta, so I could not work on the game per se.

I started to write descriptions while reading, which was rewarding. Old ideas were combined with new ones, and soon Gath, the LA version of the nation took form. Gath is the most israelite of the three nations. It draws inspiration from philistines and the israelites before the diaspora. The cult is centered around the Great Temple. From Gath, the few remaining giants rule their human subjects.
The humans of Gath live subjugated by the gittite giants, denied even the lore of iron-working. (Philistines used iron, but kept it from the israelis).
The gittites are descendants of the Rephaim, mighty giants of an earlier age (EA and MA).

Ashdod (MA) is a nation of Rephaim giants. A few human immigrants have been enslaved and used in warfare, but they are as rare as they are worthless. Ashdod is one of the cities of the Anakim, mightiest of the Rephaim and pure-blooded descendants of the godlike Nephilim of the earliest time.

Hinnom (EA) is a nation of Rephaim and lesser giants. The blood of the Nephilim runs strong and the Rephaim are few but powerful. Avvites and Horim (lesser giants) compose much of the population.

So far:
Gath is finished.
Ashdod is lacking commanders, mages and sacred units.
Hinnom only has Horites and Avvites as of yet.

I have not begun work on summons yet.

Re: Gath, dev diary or something
 

I'm really anticipating seeing these nations. I wonder what sort of magic we'll be looking at? My first thought was that Blood and Fire seemed appropriate to some degree, based on the bits I remember from the Bible.

Question - near OT
 

And is Arabo-Persian faction planned? I can't wait for genie!

Re: Gath, dev diary or something
 

I think just for variety I'm going to have to mod in a nation of little short creatures that enslave giants. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...es/biggrin.gif

Re: Gath, dev diary or something
 

Hoburg Niefelmasters!

Re: Gath, dev diary or something
 

Re: Gath, dev diary or something
 

Hey Ogre Kingdoms have Slave Giants. Slave Giants compared with Ogres are like Jotuns compared with humans, so I think that counts.

Re: Gath, dev diary or something
 

KO, your post/diary is very enlightening.

Have you considered adding specific pretenders/summons based on the gods, daemons, worshiped at this era (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Categor...e_Hebrew_Bible), prominent among them:
1. "Ashtoret", aka Astarte, Goddess of fertility (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Astarte) was associated with the deamon Astaroth (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Astaroth)

2. Ba'al Zebûb, the lord of flies, a deamon prince/god worshiped by the Philistine

3. Dagon, already here http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

4. Moloch, A fertility god to which humans were sacrificed (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moloch)

5. Angel orders, for which I'm sure you know much more than myself. I just want to point to this nice site the supposedly has a complete list of the angel and daemon orders according to Christianity, http://www.heart7.net/spirit/top.html.


In any case I'm *sure* the nations will come out great and I'm really looking forward to the next patch http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Re: Gath, dev diary or something
 

I'm actually working on (and have most of the artwork done for) an EA nation of giants that enslave dwarfs and trolls. In the MA version, the dwarfs have overthrown the giants and built their own nation, but I haven't started on that yet. Enslaved giants, trolls, minotaurs, and maybe a dragon or two will be a major element.

Re: Gath, dev diary or something
 

Dwarfs, dragons and trolls! You can't go wrong. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Re: Gath, dev diary or something
 

I have not considered pretender gods at this stage. Most gods of the time were fertility gods. Many gods are named something along the line of M'l'q and Ba'al (king/lord etc). EA Hinnom will get Melqarts and Ba'als as home only commanders. They will be the direct descendants of the Nephilim and approximately on the same power level as Niefel Jarls.

Dagon was actually a fertility god as well (probably dying and rebirthing, as most are), and not a fish god. I'm not sure when he became a fish, but I think it was sometime during antiquity. Nowdays he is more of a lovecraftian monster than a god http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

According to some tales it was Goliath who captured the Ark and placed it in the temple of Dagon.

I will use some of the angelic order stuff, but I want the angelic beings to be more otherworldy and unfathomable, like the visions of the merkavah mysticism and Ezekiel. So I will focus on the bizzare order angels like wheels and thrones (Ophanim and Merkavah, if I'm not mistaken) and leave the rest for Marignon. How I will draw them is beyond me atm, but I hope my imagination can take the step off the cliff of sanity http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

---

Work is proceeding splendidly. I started to work on Gath, because I found them fun and easy to imagine. I also felt a bit ovewhelmed by the earlier eras. I had no idea on how I wanted the Repahim to look.

When Gath was finished I felt a bit saddened that the earlier eras would not feel as cool. The Kohen Gadol of Gath was remarkably impressive.

Then I started on Ashdod, and I became surprised that they turned out even cooler than Gath. Pity, though I, that the Early age would be the most boring of the three.

So I started with Hinnom. And now I stare in disbelief at my creation http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif . They are a bit short on regular units, so I will have to work a bit more, but I'm quite happy with their commanders.

Since the Giants are big, I have been able to add more details than I usually do. It has been quite rewarding, but time consuming. I've spent more than 12 hour on 9 units today. Some of them are similar with variations, so most of my time went into three units and reworking of their descriptions.

Re: Gath, dev diary or something
 

Hm... you're certainly building up expectations. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

I have to say my interested is piqued, and I think I speak for everyone when I say that this dev diary is a good idea.

Re: Gath, dev diary or something
 

seconded, the diary is awesome and expectations are at all time high http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...es/biggrin.gif

Re: Gath, dev diary or something
 

Bah! This isn't the first Dev Diary. I still have copies of the ones that told us the first things about a whole era of Niefelheim-type nations and huge mage-thugs. I still remember reading about the old age mechanics, and being in awe.

I also remember the times after this forum was up, but before there was a demo or even the preordered games had been shipped. Oh, the weird threads we had... I also had a fun time updating a "screenies" thread showing many things like common, everyday units, and giving the other Seraph when someone asked how Caelum was changed, etc etc.

This is rather nice, but nowhere near that level. I mean, what's another awesome nation after so many OTHER awesome nations?

Re: Gath, dev diary or something
 

Bah! on you http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Other nations are not Biblical. This is a nation of Biblical proportions. Thus Grand, thus more expectations. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif Tremble before the Rephaim!

Seriously though, I'm satisfied with the nation. Generally I like my later nations more. I think I'm steering towards culture more and more. I didn't do much research when I begun dom-ppp, since there was no particular need. I knew enough to make a somewhat generic roman nation, but later on got annoyed that Pythium didn't have diverse legionnaries, so they were remade into hastatii, principes etc. The later nations are more historically grounded, for good or bad (perhaps not Agartha http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif ).

Personally I like the oldest nations least. Man, Pytium, Ulm and Marignon have been with me for over a decade, and I do percieve them as a bit generic. I like LA Pythium far better than MA, and I Like LA Ulm better then MA (the new MA stuff helps though).

Re: Gath, dev diary or something
 

According to this site, Dagon was depicted in the form of a merman.

Re: Gath, dev diary or something
 

Dagon is likely a distortion of the west-semitic god Dagan, a fertility diety, and in several texts father of Ba'al. Etymologically Dagan means grain. The fact that dag means fish is probably the reason he later on become considered a fish god. Since there are few sources on dagan, and none which states his function it is up to us to speculate.

The first fish-man of the paintings could be any divinity associated with water including a possible fish-dagon. The latter of the two is from Nineveh, and by all accounts not the philistine Dagon.

Back in my day...
 

... now quit jumping around and feed me my soup, for chrissakes!

Re: Back in my day...
 

Just as a consideration, KO...

Have you considered doing a Carthaginian nation?

Re: Back in my day...
 

Thought about it, but not in any meaningful manner.

Re: Back in my day...
 

Yo Kristoffer,

Re your progress page, mars->march, assuming it's meant to be English.

Re: Back in my day...
 

Mars is march in Swedish.

Re: Back in my day...
 

Okay, I thought it might be that. Are feb, jan, dec etc all the same in both languages then?

Re: Gath, dev diary or something
 

Boy, your hebrew is getting better and better. Are you sure you're not one of those specially trained spies speaking half a dozen or so languages? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

Re: Gath, dev diary or something
 

Of course not! He trains the specially trained spies! (not in the languages, though)

Re: Gath, dev diary or something
 

Hmmmmmm, I was just about to reply "awesome!" to a preview screeny from KO, but it already vanished... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...ies/tongue.gif

It's a conspiracy!

Re: Gath, dev diary or something
 

I made some screenies. Here is the newly finished Hinnom.
To the left the Horim (cave dwellers). In the middle the Avvim (lesser giants). And finally the Rephaim.

http://ulm.illwinter.com/dom3/hinnom.jpg

Re: Gath, dev diary or something
 

Sorry Ich, I just disliked that the screen appeared as an attachment http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Re: Gath, dev diary or something
 

My biggest problem now will be balancing stuff. Giants are more problematic to evaluate than humans. Sacred giants even more so.

Re: Gath, dev diary or something
 

These look great! Especially that fellow with the horn, Really stand-outish.

I wonder if we'll see a "Crazy Boat-maker" hero with animal-awe for the late age of this nation?

Re: Gath, dev diary or something
 

You can post the attachment, and then edit your post to link to the actual uploaded jpeg graphic, too. That's what most of the people here are doing.

Re: Gath, dev diary or something
 

Aha!

Re: Gath, dev diary or something
 

With navigation, naturally. He should have a special effect that casts Rain wherever he goes - at least for forty days and forty nights. (Which, come to think of it, is less than two turns...) It shouldn't be too hard to do since IIRC there are already beings who cast Darkness just by showing up.

And, of course, every turn he should freespawn two of some type of animal. Handy when it's elephants, a little less so when it's swine, but appropriate either way.

I don't know if the nation is supposed to represent the Hebrews *and* the Philistines or only the latter.


P.S. Any plans for the Grigori, perhaps as a national summon? Samyaza as a national hero, or perhaps a national pretender? They could play a role similar to the departed celestials of Kailasa - beings whose glory days predated even the EA, but might just come back if you know how to call them...

Re: Gath, dev diary or something
 

Looks cool! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Re: Gath, dev diary or something
 

This nation looks incredibly groovy. Awesome job on the icons and unit concepts in general.

Re: Gath, dev diary or something
 

Looks great KO, really. Any idea for release date?

Re: Gath, dev diary or something
 

> P.S. Any plans for the Grigori, perhaps as a national summon? Samyaza as a national hero, or perhaps a national pretender? They could play a role similar to the departed celestials of Kailasa - beings whose glory days predated even the EA, but might just come back if you know how to call them...

They will be included as summons. I intend to make them uniques, since there are references regarding what science they taught. Semyaza was the teacher of enchantments and herblore IIRC. THere is some overlapping in what they taught, so I think I'll make less than eleven of them.

> Any idea for release date?

No idea. I think it need more beta than normally, since the 3.15 seems stable and there might be balancing issues with the new nations. Also there is not much other stuff done atm. The soul shattering mechanic must be fixed, and there will probably be new issues I want JK to take a look at. And I have all the summons to do.

Re: Gath, dev diary or something
 

OK, now I'll test the Ich suggestion. This is a LA Gibbor, a surviving Rephaim of earier ages. Stats might be redone, but you get the picture.


http://www.shrapnelcommunity.com/thr...121-gibbor.jpg

Re: Gath, dev diary or something
 

Hah! It worked.

Re: Gath, dev diary or something
 

Can you command respect? Some kind of new summon? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif And I think there should be also coma before 'enchanted' in last sentence. And I do not see bronze cap on his head either http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

P.S. There is still mistype when you wish for armageddon, you get 'the biggest earthquake every seen'.

Re: Gath, dev diary or something
 

"Command respect" is perfectly normal English, it is a widely used expression. There is no need for the comma either, Zeldor.

The wish events and other spell events were never typo-fixed because they are in different files than the descriptions.

Re: Gath, dev diary or something
 

Are you English as a second language Zeldor? Not saying that to be insulting, but to "command respect" is used so often in America it's a cliche. I'm also pretty sure adding a comma before enchanted would be a splice (so don't do it).

Re: Gath, dev diary or something
 

Hehe, yeah. In most parts of the world they teach Oxford English, which is a bit different http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Re: Gath, dev diary or something
 

British English doesn't need the comma either, and is quite happy with commanding respect for that matter.

Re: Gath, dev diary or something
 

Excellent work Kristoffer, I really like the guy with the curved horn, I hope his stats make him worth recruiting!

This thread does remind me of Endoperez's thread before Dom3, of course I was a complete newbie then, so easily fooled/impressed.

Don't forget the map that will never be (but will really, eventually, hopefully...) http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Re: Gath, dev diary or something
 

Cant wait to see them all. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif
I cant help feeling these giants will be rather unique in MA and LA. So far, all the inately magical races have dwindled in numbers during the Middle age, and LA is basically dominated by humans. I guess angelic blood was stronger than Van and Jotun. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif
Rather interesting twist, though - sacred lands never conquered by Rome/Ermor, all these giants perserving their semi-antique culture well into the Middle Ages.

Re: Gath, dev diary or something
 

Agree, I think keeping the giants, angelic blood in those nations well into MA and LA adds an interesting development in dom history for not only are humans ever more dominant in late ages they have almost all turned to death magic. Those nations, if based on fire, nature and astral as I suspect they should would differ in that respect as well.

They would sort of be the worlds last hope against evil and man nations such as Ermor and R'lyeh.

I'd also like to comment that the screenies are awesome and that at this point I practically can't wait to see the new patch, though OtoH I'm willing to wait as much as required for the beta testing.

OT, Meglobob, are you back?- Will you be playing MP anytime soon?- You know Fearsome Legions exploded [img]/threads/images/Graemlins/Grenade.gif[/img] after you left (not by your absence though). Shame, for it just reached a boiling point [img]/threads/images/Graemlins/Campfire.gif[/img]

Re: Gath, dev diary or something
 

I may be wrong, but... if I'm not, they hardly qualify as last hope or something. If anything, the Philistines were downright evil.
...Not to mention that Old Testaments God is not a benevolent one... at all.

And the Late Age, while touched by corruption and approaching the Rlyeh/Ermor (/Mictlan) apocalypse, is not as hopeless as it seems. Arco is as spiritual as ever, Tien Chi doesnt view death magic as something magic of rot and decay, to them its means of ancestral worship, Jomon is a proud human culture (cruel as hell, but still noble in their own way). Bogarus is full of contradictions (as it should be!), there's place for both freakish blood rituals and pure religions worship, noble Bogatyr etc. In Agartha, the dead walk peacefully amongs the living. Even Dark Forest Ulm, while downright hopeless, is inspired by some of the darker pages of human history, and may be redeemed later just as the real world survived the Dark Ages, Thirty Years War, witchhunts all over Europe etc, etc.

Re: Gath, dev diary or something
 

The new nations are not exactly going to be a beacon of hope. They are cannibalistic amongst other things.

Re: Gath, dev diary or something
 

Shame about fearsome legions, worst thing is Zak seems to have given up hosting.

Sadly, I am not playing any MP atm and can't see me doing so for several months but hopefully then I will be able to delegate some of my workload and join a new game.

Still on the plus side I see all the newbie MP games are filling up fast, so no shortage of new blood to play the outstanding game which is Dom3.

Just catching up on reading the forums posts as its a public holiday for Easter.