Why do people hate on Ulm?
 

I'm rather curious that Ulm seems to have a funny reputation, but I don't understand exactly why. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Re: Why do people hate on Ulm?
 

Well, having played MA Ulm in my first MP game I can tell you - I took a commanding lead and built some impressive armies. Then my opponents start developing spells like Darkness, Arrow Fend, Flaming Arrows, etc. My mighty armies quickly became targets for high level evocation spells. My own magic was so predictable - Blade Wind, Destruction repeat...that my enemies knew exactly what to expect. Needless to say, the fall of Ulm was almost as fast as its rise.

I will always have a place in my heart for the stalwart Ulmites, but won't be eager to try them again in MP.

Re: Why do people hate on Ulm?
 

Early Age and Late Age Ulm are fine, if hardly powerhouses. Its Middle Age Ulm thats was (and possibly still is) the benefit of so much grief. Basically, they had no sacred troops, so a bless strategy was out of the question. Then, their only mages were 2E1F with a 10% chance of getting an additional path. Thats not a lot of magic diversity. Finally, there best troops could not win against other enemy troops, and their archers are very resource intensive.

Re: Why do people hate on Ulm?
 

Traitors! Ulm is invincible! All those pathetic magic-dabbling sharlatans and superstitious zealots will meet the swift judgement of the cold blade.

Re: Why do people hate on Ulm?
 

Yeah Kamamura!! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/laugh.gif

Ulm has some intruiging and fun strengths (item forging! plate mail!) and are very popular with many players who are new to the game (that included all of us at one point). So, you have the pro-Ulm-ites, most of which are newbies. This doesn't help Ulm's reputation because these people are not sensitive to Ulm's disadvantages and tend to get slaughtered in multiplayer.

So, Ulm is hated in part as a reaction against the love many people have for the faction originally.

Also, it doesn't help that many of Ulm's even supposed "advantages" are in fact disadvantages. Or at least were up until recently. Take Black Plate, for example -- Ulm's own regular infantry were better than these supposed users of "superior" steel due to encumbrance and defense issues. This has mostly been fixed in the last patch, though.

Then there are the "Ulm is a race of stupid people" arguments. Ulm has no medium infantry even though they would be a great help. Ulm refuses to use swords even though they are better -- we like hammers!

Another reason people don't like MA Ulm because the faction has a long littany of disadvantages, much longer than most factions.

Ulm is slow. Painfully so.

Ulm has only very limited magic diversity in a game where magic diversity is a principle asset and power.

Ulm, until recently, had no good thugs its national mages could summon besides maybe troll kings. So, they have great SC item forging capability, but no SCs.

So, Ulm's reputation is of a race of slow, dimwitted fools beloved by newbies and the uninformed who are slaughtered in multiplayer. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/fear.gif

But I love Ulm anyway!!! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...ies/tongue.gif

Re: Why do people hate on Ulm?
 

> Traitors! Ulm is invincible! All those pathetic magic-dabbling sharlatans and
> superstitious zealots will meet the swift judgement of the cold blade.

Yup, as soon as you find some other sharlatan or zealot to hold them down for you :-)

Re: Why do people hate on Ulm?
 

I put my trust in steel. Black steel. It has never failed me yet.

Re: Why do people hate on Ulm?
 

Yup++. Way back when the earth was young and I'd just picked up Dom2, people recommended Ulm because it was easy to learn. I had the frustrating experience of being smashed in the same way: gee, look at all the stuff my "easy" nation can't do! I was hopeful Dom3 would fix Ulm (now MA Ulm), but I was disappointed w/ it.

I do like EA Ulm, tho.

Re: Why do people hate on Ulm?
 

Heh, thanks everyone for the informative and amusing input. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif What is it about Ulm that makes it a good "newbie nation." Is it the limited options, or maybe the reduced amount of micromanagement needed?

Re: Why do people hate on Ulm?
 

MA Ulm is definitely not a newbie nation in the sense that it takes considerably experience and skill to succeed with it (in MP).

Re: Why do people hate on Ulm?
 

Perhaps I should have said "a nation that newbies like, even if they are not successful with."

Why anyone would like a nation they can't succeed with still confuses me a bit, but I assume not everyone who uses Ulm is a newbie. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Re: Why do people hate on Ulm?
 

Both.

Ulm is a magic-hating nation in a game with 600+ spells.
Their description sounds as if they'd make a good rush nation... but they don't. And past early game, their weaknesses become even more exposed. Which brings me to another point: it's very, very hard to balance something like Ulm. Without strong magic, they can't possibly have strong endgame. If you just buff their units, you just make them into a rush nation, and do nothing to adress their mid-late weakness.

Items are just not as important or versatile as spells. Magic items can be divided into few categories:
thug/SC equipment
magic boosters

ranged weapons (situational, and not very effective)
everything else.

Magic boosters and thugs/SC's win games. Ulm has little magic to boost, and no efficient thug/SC chasis. This leaves ranged weapons and various misc items. Not something you can build a strategy around. You could find some very specific good items, but depending on few such items makes you much more predictable (=vulnerable) than strong combat magic or SC's.
There are basically no magic items for boosting armies. I think this is a big deal for Ulm, which thematically should depend on steel. Only army-boosting items I can think of boost morale and increase leadership. Oh, and there's the staff of storms. They do nothing about resistances, darkness (no items to counter darkness ? WTF ?), toughness, damage potential. To boost regular armies, you have to rely on combat magic.

Suggestion to any Kristoffers who might be reading this post: Ulm would really like some national forgable items that boost regular armies in various ways, most notably resistances. This would make regular Ulm units better without making them a primitive rush nation.

I've seen an argument that Black Lords can make cost-effective thugs due to their low cost and Ulm's magic item discount. Using 4 black lords instead of 1 'regular' thug etc. This is totally backwards thinking. If you need 4 equipped black lords just to break even, Ulm's forge bonus is basically worthless (for black lords) because it's not an advantage. Another way of saying it is that Black Lords suck so much you need 25% forge bonus to break even with them.

Re: Why do people hate on Ulm?
 

Not only that, playing MA Ulm left me feeling like the 18 year old stuck in 7th grade - that is to say everyone else was learning lots of good stuff to help them in the future whereas I was hopelessly stuck. They got to experiment with different magic research paths, interesting summons, artifacts, etc. whereas I (who took a really lame pretender as well: a 4e1w cyclops - its almost comical - i meant to take 1a so i could get gargoyles but somehow confused the air and water icon...) just looked at what i could get for 3e or less. and even 3e required earth boots. So I didn't learn much other than Ulm is not a Noob nation at all. The only easy thing about Ulm is that it is easy to convince everyone your not a threat...

Re: Why do people hate on Ulm?
 

Dominions also has a bunch of things that can be learned only w/ "hard" nations: to really appreciate the strengths/weaknesses of blood magic, communions, and bless tactics, players really need to try (or read the forum about) nations that are good at those, and see how they work. Ulm, alas, has none of those.

I really wish MA Ulm worked somehow, that courage and steel could overcome magic, but so far, nobody's been able to figure out how.

Re: Why do people hate on Ulm?
 

Pshawoom, I say to those who lack the faith and courage. Even the strongest mage bleeds and even the most devout priest trembles with fear. Who cares about swords! Heavy things that crush and deform, that's the way. We come!

Re: Why do people hate on Ulm?
 

Ulm just sucks Kamamura. Get over it. I never even liked them in SP when I was a newbie. Come at me with Ulm in an MP game. I'll show you how it hurts.

Re: Why do people hate on Ulm?
 

Sorry. That was harsh. I just have never seen the appeal of ULM.

Re: Why do people hate on Ulm?
 

That recommendation always baffled me, as did the people who suggested starting with one of the underwater nations. Maybe they were talking about a good nation to learn the UI with, rather than strategy and tactics.

Re: Why do people hate on Ulm?
 

Kamamura is having an unlucky day on the forum http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...es/redface.gif (someone went crazy at him on a newbie game thread as well - not your fault Kamamura!)

capnq - people recommend starting with underwater nations?! Wow, that is insane. Way to put someone off.

Re: Why do people hate on Ulm?
 

I am in the process of discovering all over again how much fun playing an underwater nation isn't.

MA Oceania - looks dire on paper, is diabolical in practice. Bleh ...

Re: Why do people hate on Ulm?
 

My first nation was EA Atlantis. You can't be attacked underwater so it's a very easy way to research all the spells and learn how to get your butt handed to you without being eliminated from the game.

Re: Why do people hate on Ulm?
 

Be nice to Kamamura. I just read the harsh cursing he was subjected to - not nice reading.

Re: Why do people hate on Ulm?
 

ME Ulm can be good but need some very particular strategies, and more diplomacy or luck than other nations to survive in early game. As said in the recent other threads on the question, Ulm has already won several big games (and has been a serious competitor in more). And this even before the recent national boost.

Re: Why do people hate on Ulm?
 

It is okay, I actually enjoy roleplaying a lot. I can understand there are problems with Ulm, if so many players dismiss it. I was successful with in in SP, but so far, I am just in my first MP game. Unfortunately, Ulm was already taken when I was signing :-)

As for that swearing, I don't mind a bit. That guy lost a lot of credit by bursting like this and I think he will have a hard time finding allies.

I like Dominions for the potential to discover new things, it's so massive a game... too bad the AI is not better, but it's probably impossible to achieve this with current HW and procedural languages.

Re: Why do people hate on Ulm?
 

I didn't find ulm newbie-friendly when I played with them the first time. Their troops are just too dang expensive and I lost quickly too some AI players.

Re: Why do people hate on Ulm?
 

"Why do people hate on Ulm?"

Jealousy. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Re: Why do people hate on Ulm?
 

B0rsuk -

I take issue with some things you said in your post.

Earth magic has many combat spells for boosting armies, just by the way.

But about items, I agree in some parts, that one of the reasons why people hate Ulm is the lack of a good thug/SC chassis for them.

But you also say that magic items are not as important or versatile as spells. That's just not true. They may not be quite as versatile (although close), but they are certainly just as important, imo.

An SC chassis, but no items, does not an SC make.
Powerful spells, but no boosters with which to cast them is worthless.
etc. etc..

Also, I love your "everything else" category. It's pretty broad. It's hard to dismiss that category, seeing as how many things are in it.

For example:
Dwarven hammers.
Magic penetration items.
Supply granting items.
Gem producing items.
Research items.
Movement-granting items (boots of flying, folding boat, etc.)
Summon-boosting items (e.g. lightning rod).
Seige items (e.g. gate cleaver).
Combat spell-casting items (e.g. Banner of Northern Star).
Combat summoning-items (e.g. bottle of living water).
Master & Slave matrix.
Stone spheres for scrying.
Stone idols for enemy dominion control.

And I'm sure I've missed some categories.

None of these are items you can base a strategy around??

And then there's the range weapon item category. I think you are seriously underestimating this category, especially for Ulm. I use these pretty often, and they are effective. I don't want to overstate my case here. But, they aren't "situational" and they have a definite impact on battles.

Also, army-boosting items. The best one is the Sword of Aurgelmer (autocasts "Will of the Fates"). I know it's an artifact, but it is really sweet. And since I like to rush to artifacts as Ulm, it's one of the ones I shoot for.

Besides that though, you're right, there aren't too many others out there, which is a shame.

Re: Why do people hate on Ulm?
 

I do agree that a Lantarn magic item to combat darkness should be created.

Re: Why do people hate on Ulm?
 

There is an artifact that does just that. (The forbidden light)

Re: Why do people hate on Ulm?
 

CUnknown:

I lumped the remaining items into "everything else" because they have no common theme or pattern. But look at the items you list. Almost all of them are amplifiers, boosters of some sort. To use them properly, you need either SCs or combat magic, or both. You need to put a blade on "everything else" items. They don't kill by themselves. Oh, and there are summons, too.

Re: Why do people hate on Ulm?
 

"An SC chassis, but no items, does not an SC make."

You sound just like Master Yoda :-)

Re: Why do people hate on Ulm?
 

I've been away for a while, but at the end of my last round of playing Dominons I was loving LA Ulm.

It has a workable blood economy with a pretender-dependent option to expand into earth/blood and the magic economy that implies, interesting immortal unique summmons which lead to some really nasty tactics (there was a really nice old article on it, but mainly Black Angel summoning within your own domain with immortal troops hurts a lot), excellent missile troops, and insane ability to generate unrest with its mage/spies.

Re: Why do people hate on Ulm?
 

Black Angel?

Lammashtas?

Re: Why do people hate on Ulm?
 

Yep, them. Told ya, it has been a while.

But between that and skelespam, Ulm vampies do more than okay at defending friendly lands.

Re: Why do people hate on Ulm?
 

The Black Priest now has chance for random Earth pick, so it's a little easier to get Earth-2 for the boots without taking it on your pretender.

I like LA Ulm, but pretender design for them has driven me crazy. I want growth, a pretender that's at least sleeping with at least 3D3B, and probably some Prod (at least not Sloth). VQ is highly thematic, but as many have posted, way overpriced.

Re: Why do people hate on Ulm?
 

Why do you need prod? LA Ulm is all rangers in basegame.

Re: Why do people hate on Ulm?
 

As of last time I was playing Ulm, I ran a B6D3F2N2E2 Dom 7 sleeping fountain with Order 3 Misfortune 2 Growth 2 Magic 1. This was several patches ago, so that may not be as useful now.


An old thread I started about LA Ulm