Forbidden Magic: Darkness and Light!
 

edit: maybe Light vs Darkness is better than good versus evil. Think of Archon! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Okay I am thinking about organizing a Good (or Neutral) magic versus Evil magic game in the near future. The basic idea is that Team Evil Magic will be comprised of Blood, Death and maybe some of the nastier Astral spells, or maybe just Astral. Team Good (or Neutral) Magic will be comprised of Fire, Air, Water, Earth and Nature.

So the basic idea is that the Dark pretender gods of the world have been practicing magic which has threatens to the magical landscape/fabric of space-time/magical aether/etc. and threatens to destroy all the other gods. The result is strange events are becoming more and more common, and horrors are starting to appear and randomly attack people. So this of course gives all the other gods a reason to band together and stop them. Also each side will have magic and strategies that is unique to their side, which should be interesting. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

There are a number of ways to go with this. The simplest way is to have Team Darkness and Team Light fight it out until only one team is left standing. Or there could also be a time limit of some sort. For instance if Team Darkness succeeds in casting a certain spell or combination of spells (say, Utterdark, Astral Corruption, and Burden of Time), Team Darkness automatically wins. Another option is requiring Team Darkness to capture certain magical nodes or artifacts of great power in order to win (ie Victory Points). Or something else similar that gives each team a sense of mission and urgency so it's not just about counting units and resources.

Another cool thing is that skill level shouldn't be as big a deal since we can just balance things out by having some newbies and some experienced players on each team. Anyway that's the basic idea. In general, I want to keep the rules simple, but I want to give the game enough structure so that it feels thematically interesting while being challenging and fun for both sides. Anyway, all constructive input and suggestions are welcome.

See this post for more background.

Re: Forbidden Magic: Good vs Evil!
 

So here's a lineup of possible Villians:
Abysia: Hellfire and Blood!
Ermor: Undead Legions
R'yleh: Mind enslavers and void gate openers.

And Heros:
Pythium
Caelum
Arcoscephale
Ulm
Man
Mictlan, MA

Feel free to make suggestions on Villain nations and Hero nations.

Re: Forbidden Magic: Good vs Evil!
 

Wouldn't the powerful late game Death summons and Astral spells annihilate anything the good team could do?

Re: Forbidden Magic: Good vs Evil!
 

Yes, good point. Do you have any suggestions on how this might be balanced? Maybe this is just an incentive for the Good Team to win earlier. They could get more resources, but then, they might just win too easily.

Maybe let the Good Team have some Astral too, so long as they promise not to use spells like Curse and Master Enslave? A good deal of Astral could be construed as neutral. Of course this will probably depend on the honor system for the first go around of this.

Re: Forbidden Magic: Good vs Evil!
 

Yes, the good team would definitely have to have Astral, so that they could at least Wish in the late game. That's still not going to balance out Tartarians though (although you get them at about the level of research). I think the incentive would be for the good team to win early, with the Elemental Royalty.

Re: Forbidden Magic: Good vs Evil!
 

Okay, here is a rudimentary list of astral spells that the Good Team will stake their scout's honor upon not using:

Baleful Star
Imprint Souls

False Horror
Nether Dart
Nether Bolt
Horror Mark
Soul Slay
Doom
Enslave Mind
Master Enslave
Soul Drain
Unravelling

So basically spells which subvert another being's will, spells which drain, and spells which threaten to destabilize the "fabric of space-time" should be off limits to the good guys. Any spell that requires paths in death or blood should probably be off-limits, even if they inadvertently get access through indie mages. Maybe they will get their butts kicked because of this, but at least they can feel good about themselves at the end of the day. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Re: Forbidden Magic: Good vs Evil!
 

Instead of magic to divide the teams into evil and good, you may try dividing the teams according to the nations themes. This way you would not need to depend on the honor system concerning spells.

Re: Forbidden Magic: Good vs Evil!
 

I would like to play. I don't mind which side.

I think you could draw up a list of a few spells (at least) from some school that the other side can use. You can ban that school from pretenders but many nations will have a mix on their mages even if mostly good/neutral or Evil.

Even if you look at death some of its spells are anti undead and so 'good' - e.g. Wither Bones & Dust to Dust. Plus the Evil ones are likely to throw a lot of undead at the Good guys and they may need these spells.

Astral could be used by both, but have a list of prohibated spells for the good guys - no Enslaves, Soul Slay (& therefore Mind Hunt), Soul Drain, Unravelling, Doom, Horror Mark, Abominations etc. Still leaving the Good guys with Wish, Golem, some combats, most astral magic items and the globals. Like Dispel http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Fire should possibly be allowed for both? It fits well with Blood in Domminions 3 and is destructive (so evil?) but also has a clensing purity and fits well with the other Elemental magics for good? Maybe Water as well? That would still leave Earth, Nature and Air as solely with the good/neutral side?

If you think the Evil side will be too strong then you could restrict the cooperation on the Evil side. Maybe they cannot trade with each other in any way while the good side can? That would be quite thematic as the evil ones are united against the goods but don't actually trust each other.

But the Tartarians at least should be far less of a threat than normal. The Chalice it good so couldn't be made by Evil(?) As is Gift of Health and possibly Gift of Reason as they are both Nature spells. So there will be far fewer decent SC Tartarians than usual and lots more meat shields.

Re: Forbidden Magic: Good vs Evil!
 

So, um, destroying an enemy by disintigrating him instantly is evil, but burning him to death is a-okay?

Re: Forbidden Magic: Good vs Evil!
 

I would like to play on the good side, but its my I don't have a problem with most of those spell you listed as banned.

What I would Ban definately: Arcane Nexus, Taratarian Gate, astral corruption, Master enslave

Maybe ban Darkness, probobly not.

Also We could use mods to eliminate any ban spells.

Re: Forbidden Magic: Good vs Evil!
 

Im surprised you are putting Astral in the hands of Evil, rather than Good. After all, astral has a load of spells which are anti-undead: Solar Brilliance being the epitome of that class. Additionally, with the major exception of Ryleh, most astral heavy nations in the game (pyth, mari) are considered "holy", thematically.

IMO, the paths would break down like this:
Good: Nature, Astral
Bad: Death, Blood
Nuetral: Fire, Water, Air, Earth

Chaos vs Order?
 

@sum1lost: Well "evil" is just a placeholder for the bad guys right now, and is probably too loaded a term. Anyway, the rough story if you re-read the original post is that the Forces of Darkness (tm) are screwing everything with their dark magic that is unleashing horrors and messing up space-time, etc. which is bad for the other pretender gods. Therefore, the Forces of Light (tm) have banded together to put a stop to this, so yes, it would be unthematic for them to send horrors to enemy provinces since it would further mess up space-time, etc.

However, it's perfect okay for them to chop up the Forces of Darkness (tm) into little bits or burn them or whatever since this fulfills the greater goal of getting rid of the bad guys. So maybe it's an uneasy alliance for the good guys as well, or maybe everyone lives happily ever after if the Forces of Darkness (tm) are defeated. I'll admit it's not Tolkien, but hey at least it is a story-line.

@Foodstamp and Hoplosternum:Originally I thought about limiting the magical diversity of Darkness because they're already so powerful with Astral, Blood and Death. However, Abysia's Fire and Blood theme does work pretty well with the whole satanic, hell-fire, devil-summoning theme. So maybe a combination of limiting pretender magic paths and nation choices will provide and simple and enforceable solution. If Light happens to find indie Amazon who will "convert" and help out by casting Dust to Dust, then so much the better. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

So here's a lineup of possible Villians:
Abysia: Hellfire and Blood!
Ermor: Undead Legions
R'yleh: Mind enslavers and void gate openers.

And Heros:
Pythium
Caelum
Arcoscephale
Ulm
Man
Mictlan, MA

Actually, I'm finding it more difficult to come up with reasons why the good guys are really good. I think it is partly just the way the game is designed that no one is really "good" and all nations want to come out on top. But of course we can try to use nations which fit our general sense of goodness and order, as long as pretender choices like the Prince of Death are avoided for the good guys. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Another idea: Maybe a grudge match between Kailasa and Lanka. However it might need a bit of handicapping. Likewise with Pythium and Ermor.

"Astral could be used by both, but have a list of prohibated spells for the good guys - no Enslaves, Soul Slay (& therefore Mind Hunt), Soul Drain, Unravelling, Doom, Horror Mark, Abominations etc." Yes, I agree with this for thematic reasons if the bad guys are responsible for all the horrors.

Note, Darkness and Light could be changed to Chaos and Order. Chaos and the whole horror summoning, ruining the world theme works well together, but figuring out who is order will be harder. Of course, Light is also a rather murky concept.

Finally, I want to emphasize this isn't a finished idea by any means. I think what would be ideal would be an epic Lord of the Rings style war, but of course, we'd probably need some more mod nations.

Re: Chaos vs Order?
 

If we base that on the scales a nation most benefits from, we could end up with...peculiar...alliances, say Ulm & R'lyeh vs. Ermor & Pangaea.

Re: Chaos vs Order?
 

I had the idea of organising a "Last Stand of Humanity" game some time, though I never got round to it. It would be something like Man, Ulm, Marignon, Pythium, T'ien Ch'i vs monstrous nations - Abysia, Jotunheim, Pangaea, Shinuyama etc. I was thinking of having all the human nations start in the middle of the map, with all the monsters around the edge, closing in on them.

Re: Chaos vs Order?
 

Well I am very interested however you split the teams. I would suggest you keep the player numbers small - even if the game map is slightly larger if you want a long game - you want to get to tartarians & abominations for the theme surely?

This is because with only two sides you want all players to have a front line. It won't be much fun for the player who is surrounded only be his own side and just ends up as a gem & magic item factory! And rememeber that even if you place people next to enemies some people spread quicker and if a weak enemy goes down some players may find themselves cut off from the enemy. Swapping provinces is fine for access if its just the odd territory but will hardly work if huge chunks of territory need swapping for access.

I would think 4v4 is probably about the maximum you would want or you risk people being cut off early and often? You could always have multiple games if the demand is there. Then you can have a Life v Death struggle, a Order v Chaos struggle, a Good v Evil struggle etc.

Re: Chaos vs Order?
 

Here's an idea for player layout to maximise contact with the enemy. First of all, choose a wraparound map. Then put the players on like this:

O X O X
X O X O

That way everyone has 4 enemies as neighbours.

Unfortunately it only works with 4, 8, 16 etc players, but a fudge with some intermediate number of players should be possible.

Re: Chaos vs Order?
 

I love the idea and would very much like to be involved.

Re: Chaos vs Order?
 

Interesting idea, but I do not think that most magics are inherently good or
evil. For example, Pythium is definitely a holy, good nation, despite having
strong astral, and Abysia is an evil nation despite having elemental fire.

I think you are better off just choosing an era (for example MA) and a theme for
the fight, for example [RACIST HUMANS] vs [DEMONWORSHIPPERS] vs [NON-HUMANS]:

[img]/threads/images/Graemlins/icon17.gif[/img] organized, lawful, good to their people, but hate non-humans
Pythium, Marignon, Mictlan, Arco, Ulm, etc...

http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/evil.gif think humans are cattle and use them as such:
R'lyeh, Abysia, Pangea, Vanheim, Jotunheim, etc...

[img]/threads/images/Graemlins/icon27.gif[/img] want to subjuggate humans, but abhor demons and blood sacrifice
C'tis, Shinuyama, Eriu, Bandar Log, Caelum, etc...

They should start at war... write some history why it is so, and why no peace is
possible. Allow trash talking on the forums... and make damn sure that players
understand that they are supposed to HATE, HATE, HATE the enemy, and while it is
OK to gang up on the current leader, backstabbing the third party for immediate
advantage is righteous and encouraged.

Use a random map with about 20 provinces per player. Yes, that is big, but
remember, the win condition is one faction remaining, not one pretender.
Let people start randomly, and the in-faction communication and planning
will be a great advantage.

Or alternatively, make a custom, wrap-around map, and have each faction starting
together, but in possible contact with other factions. It's tricky, but far
from impossible.

By the way, I think that if this game ever happens, you better make sure the
teams are right from the very beginning.

Re: Chaos vs Order?
 

Since there is so much interest in thematic games, I also suggest multiple games. Maybe tie them together as wars across plains/dimensions in the same universe. That way the 'good" team in one game would be cheering on their counterparts in another game and vice versa.

Also, perhaps Sauromatia as an evil/dark nation?

Re: Chaos vs Order?
 

@DryaUnda: Yeah those alliances would be really strange... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

@llamabeast: Actually I think your idea is really good since it ties together thematically a lot better. I started off on the Good vs Evil track because I had this huge Lord of The Rings campaign in mind, but I think it would require a more complete set of modded nations. It just feels weird with the Dom 3 nations because no one is really that "good". http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

However I'm wondering if the O X O X setup would be a good idea since it would give each team an incentive to gang up on one or two players and eliminate them quickly. I sort of like the idea of having a "common front" for each team, with some territory swapping between teams as necessary if someone gets cut off from the front. But of course since there is so much interest we can experiment with multiple setups to see how they work. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

@Tuidjy & otthegreat & Hoplosternum: The common theme here seems to be humans vs the non-humans of various varieties. I think hosting a number of smaller parallel games is probably a good idea.

I'm not sure the game mechanics are available for one victorious army to make a gateway into make a gateway into another game, but this is a pretty cool idea. It would almost be like a strategic MMO, without the shortcomings of MMOs.

Does anyone have suggestions on good 4v4 maps that we could get started with? I'm going to look through my folder of downloaded maps and see if I can find the one that I had in mind.

Re: Chaos vs Order?
 

Ooo, I really like this idea! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/smile.gif

Re: Chaos vs Order?
 

Ah, I found it. The map is called Pangaea and is modeled on Pangaena Earth. I'm going to test it out a bit later to see if it works well for 8 players. It doesn't seem to have chokepoints, which is probably a good thing for making sure people get in touch with their opponents. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

http://www.shrapnelcommunity.com/thr...77668&page

Re: Chaos vs Order?
 

I would like to be in on this, either side. And each side playing with their own morals seems really fun. Not quite the RP game Llama was talking about in another post but it is close.

Edit: I would happily RP chaos or order. Abyssia for chaos, and it depends who for order depending on age.

Re: Chaos vs Order?
 

Well, I've been reading the forums for a while now and I'm quite excited by this theme.
I've only got 2 MP behind me with friends irl but if you'll accept another newb...I'm in ! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Re: Chaos vs Order?
 

I would also to join, any side.

Re: Chaos vs Order?
 

I think I'd like to play as well, but I'd like to see the exact rules first.

How many players do we have so far, anyway? Is this game even still open?

How will we decide teams?

Re: Chaos vs Order?
 

I want to play evil. Haven´t done that too much. What would be a suitable map you think? Not too big is my suggestion. It would be better IMO if expansion and preparation is brief, and the teams need to face each other early.

Re: Chaos vs Order?
 

I'd be interested in playing also, either side, but this thread could use some direction. We need someone to take over and lay out rules etc. It seemed like moderation was taking a leading role for a while.

Re: Chaos vs Order?
 

i'm thinking about organizing something like this as a blitz for this weekend, but i need to find someone to TCP/IP host first. just a simple humans versus non-humans match as a first run on world of geometry. if someone wants to organize something more complex, feel free to go ahead and do so. i'm a little busy in real life right now to take on more tasks.

Re: Chaos vs Order?
 

Count me in http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif
haven't played a MP game since last summer.
Any side is ok, but against the humans is better!

Re: Chaos vs Order?
 

moderation asked if I could host this - which I'm happy to do. Give me a complete list of game options and I'll get the server up so people can upload pretenders - I'll just need to know when to start it.

Things are kinda crazy for me right now though, so it'd be best if you (moderation) would be in touch with me about this via PM rather than expecting me to remember to check back in this thread....

The only caveat is that it looks as though I'll (unexpectedly) be moving in the middle of next week. It should only result in 1, maximum 2, days of downtime though.

Re: Chaos vs Order?
 

I guess first the thing you have to decide is: 2 teams or 3 teams? Which factions are on which team? How many players do you want? What map?

And then maybe decide: What are the rules regarding what spells/paths different factions can use?

And then stuff like: What age? Do you want to use any mods? etc.

Re: Chaos vs Order?
 

World of Geometry is huge. No way it can be blitzed. You need something smaller.

Re: Chaos vs Order?
 

I have some ideas on how this could be done. You don't have to follow my ideas.. we could do this multiple times, make different games based on the good v evil idea.

Anyway, here is my idea for the game structure:

GOOD v EVIL v NEUTRAL

On the brink of global war.

Over the centuries, a group of shining, virtuous nations have formed a pact for mutual defense and peaceful coexistence. This small group of kingdoms worships a pantheon of gods, all different -- yet all the same. Four aspects of the same all-powerful god. They will stand as one in the upcoming War of Ascension. All will rise to glory, or all will fall into the pit of Tartarus for eternal suffering.

Another group of nations, evil, vicious, has also arisen. They, too, all worship different aspects of the same god, yet this god is so posionous that It has corrupted their minds and they do not understand their linked fate. They too will rise to glory as one, or fall into disgrace, but they are too blinded by arrogance to realize this essential fact. They want nothing but to expand across the globe, killing and enslaving any nation which stands in their way, preferably the "good" ones. They are not organized, but far more numerous than the League of Virtue.

Only a couple nations remain neutral in this upcoming fight. They may trade will anyone, good or evil, but their Council of Elders are isolationist in nature, and they will not permit coordinated military action with any other faction, including other neutrals. They may seem to be completely doomed, without hope, but their Gods are strong and their merchants shrewd, and they have been blessed with an abundance of material wealth.

Now for the nuts and bolts:

GOOD

Disadvantages:
The League of Virtue is few in number: 4 factions.

They despise Death and Blood magic, and are forbidden to use these paths (except for anti-undead spells such as Wither Bones). They cannot trade for death or blood items with NEUTRALS. If they happen upon a blood site, they must let these slaves sit and rot in their vault. Do NOT use them for ANY purpose. Death gems, however, may be used solely to alchemetize to astral pearls.

They are forbidden to have any contact with the EVIL races (Do not discuss the game -at all- with any of these races).

They are limited in the topics they may discuss with the NEUTRAL races (see the NEUTRAL races for more detail).

They are forbidden from eliminating their own players.

They are forbidden from possessing the capital of another GOOD player (except temporarily if it has been conquered).

Advantages:
They will all start together (they have each other's back).

They are able to talk and discuss amongst themselves freely, by e-mail, in game contact -- any method and any topic.

If one of them dies, (s)he may give all items and gems to others in the League.

Victory Conditions
Elimination of all EVIL players.
Possession of all GOOD capitals.


EVIL

Disadvantages:
They are forbidden to have any contact with the GOOD or EVIL races (Do not discuss the game -at all- with any of these races). EVIL cannot plan strategies or coordinate their efforts in -any- way. They cannot trade screenshots. They cannot -talk at all- amongst themselves.

They cannot discuss their Pretender choices before the game starts.

Each is prohibited from giving anything to any other faction upon their death.

They are limited in the topics they may discuss with the NEUTRAL races (see the neutral races for more detail).

They are randomly distributed throughout the world.

Advantages:

They are overwhelmingly numerous: 8 factions.
They may corrupt all forms of magic for their own use.
They may eliminate their own players at will.

Victory Conditions

Elimination of all GOOD and NEUTRAL players.


NEUTRALS

Disadvantages:

They are limited in the topics they may discuss with all races. They may discuss: trading gold, gems, items, provinces, world maps (screenshots). Non-aggression pacts. "Please stop x (inciting unrest, etc.)" messages. That is all. No coordinated military actions with -any- other faction!! No trading -any- military info on -any- other nation beyond what you can show in world-map screenshots. You are -forbidden- to trade battle screenshots.

--> If they trade screenshots to an EVIL player, that EVIL player is honor-bound not to show them to his/her allies. All EVIL players must purchase the screenshots individually from the NEUTRAL players if they want to see how the world looks apart from their own corner of it.

Each NEUTRAL race is prohibited from giving anything to any other faction upon their death. All trades must be legit -- no trading 1000 gold for 100 gold. You are honor-bound to play in your own self-interest.
Addendum - NEUTRAL races are stubbornly proud and will refuse to give tribute to any race for any purpose. Trades which are slightly uneven are okay, as long as it is debateable. Simply handing 1000 gold to the nearest EVIL race "Please don't kill me" is not allowed. (i.e. making an unfair trade as a plea for survival (being a "forge *****") is not allowed). NEUTRAL races will live free, or die!

They are on their own. There are 2 NEUTRAL races, but they are not a team.

They are randomly distributed throughout the world.

Advantages:

They may use all forms of magic.
They may eliminate any player at will.
They are the only players the EVIL factions can say anything to, including their own allies!
They are extremely weathly: they start the game with 1500 gold and 10 gems of every type.

Victory Conditions

Standard Dominions victory condition: There Can Be Only One. Ascend or get thrown into Tartarus! Sucks to be you, NEUTRAL guys.

Remember if you kill all of the EVIL races first and don't hold any GOOD capitals, you lose. You sort of have to attack both.


Mods being used:

Single-Age Mod.
Complete Balance Mod.

Map:

I don't know yet.

Any race (from any Age) may be chosen as Good, Evil, or Neutral. I don't judge. But remember that Good races cannot use Death or Blood magic at all. I'd recommend taking a faction for Good that doesn't use these paths. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

The NEUTRAL races in particular must be played by experienced, trustworthy players. They need to be a buffer between the EVIL and GOOD races in the beginning, or EVIL will just stomp over everything.

The EVIL races also need to be played by trustworthy players -- if they start communicating illegally, they will win hands-down.

Does this sound even remotely balanced? I have given it a lot of thought, but am certainly open to suggestions! I know it sucks for the neutral factions, they are not supposed to win. I am talking good v evil balance. Hopefully, though, with their extra gold and the fact that the EVIL races can only trade with them, the Neutral races won't get eliminated early by the EVIL races. The GOOD races have no real incentive to kill the NEUTRALS -- they don't need to in order to win.

I will start a new thread for this game if there is interest.

I'm not planning this as a blitz, the blitz can happen, too! Why not just have more games? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/laugh.gif

Re: Chaos vs Order?
 

I like it, alot. But who would want to be neutral?

Re: Chaos vs Order?
 

I'll be neutral if no one else wants to be.

Imagine the glory if you manage to pull off a win!! And, you do start with 1500 gold and 10 gems of all types, that is enough for a killer start. Start building your second castle on turn 3.. get all the mercenaries.. and still have enough gold for your best mages and troops to begin with.

And GOOD won't attack you in the beginning -- they need your help against the overwhelming forces of EVIL (also they can win without killing you). EVIL may choose to go around you, since you are more powerful than them individually, and you are their only hope to trade for items they can't make themselves.

Ah, who am I kidding, EVIL is gonna stomp your a$$. Hehe, but it would be fun, I think!

I stayed up until like 3:30am thinking about this game concept, lol http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...es/biggrin.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...es/biggrin.gif

The rules are basically unenforceable, people will need to be honorable as players for this to work, is the only problem.

Re: Chaos vs Order?
 

I'm not sure about balance (at all) but the concept sure sounds fun. If you have trouble finding players willing to be neutral I might even be tempted, depending on what age the game will be in.

To go with the wealthy neutral theme, I would think it a good idea to add an iron mine or other bonus resource site to their start province too.

How about alchemy? Thematically 'destroying the essence of evil made physical, and converting it to astral gems for the betterment of mankind' sounds good to me.

Re: Chaos vs Order?
 

If you think the GOOD races are at a disadvantage, we could let them alchemetize the death gems.

I'm not sure they are at a disadvantage, though.. Being able to talk and coordinate is just huge.. Hmm... I dunno. We will vote on the death gem issue. I just don't want to have the GOOD races getting indy death mages and searching for sites. It's not thematic.

An iron mine for the NEUTRALS could be a good call.. we should vote on that as well.

And, this is all ages, we are going to use the Single Age mod (all Ages in one). Pick any faction you want.

Re: Chaos vs Order?
 

The only exception I'd suggest to the Blood and Death ban would be to allow the death anti-undead spells. I'm not sure if there are any equivalents in Blood. (And anything actually using Blood slaves is out.)

If not, mod out any Blood/Death paths from the Good nations.
Even if it's just a random.

Re: Chaos vs Order?
 

Okay, using Wither Bones seems acceptable for the Good races. That is sensible. Good people can specialize in Death magic for the purpose of learning the weaknesses of undead, that makes perfect sense.

In that case, maybe we should go ahead and allow them to alchemitize death gems to astral.

I have modified the original post about this game to include wither bones and alchemy for death gems for Good races.

I also started up a new thread for this game. This is really a splinter game from the original idea, the original idea was good, too! I mostly just didn't want to play this as a blitz.

Re: Chaos vs Order?
 

The only problem with my suggestion is it'll be difficult to keep Good death mages from spamming undead once the scripts run out.

(As I argue against myself...)

Re: Chaos vs Order?
 

Yes, but these are the reanimated bones of only the "good" warriors. They are "good" skeletons. There is a world of difference. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

As long as Good isn't using any death gems to summon tartarians or whatever, that is all I care about.

Let's say Good is forbidden from having Death or Blood on their pretenders as well.

Re: Chaos vs Order?
 

Why would the good races forsake death magic? Blood magic MOST definitely,
but death magic is not evil per se.

As a matter of fact, this game will be ruined if it is played unfairly. Nothing
can stop the Evil players from coordinating, and if they do that, it will be a
walk in the park for them. So we have to assume that all Evil guys are honest.
Can't we assume that all Good guys are honest as well, and let them script
only non-evil spells?

What is an evil spell? Anything that hurts population. Unrest and discent is
fine, killin is not. Anything that uses mind control and has 'evil' fluff.
Anything described as killing innocents. Thus summoning ghouls is an abomination
but rasing longdead would be fine.

Evil elemental spells: Hurricane, Tidal Wave, Volcanic Eruption
Evil astral spells: Enslave Mind, Imprint Souls, Master enslave
Evil death spells: Black Plague, Burden of Time, etc..

If a spell can be rationalized, it's fine:
Charm - oh, yes, you convert an unit, but you do it by a mind melt that lets
them see that your side is right.
Raging Hearts - the good people of the province are rising against the oppression
and are killing the tools of the evil regime.
Bane Lord - a great hero from the past arises to help defeat the enemies of
all that is good and pure.

I wonder whether any non-blood items should be forbidden to the good races. I
cannot think of any items that are clearly evil, and do not require blood. Does
the horror harmonica? The Wraith Sword I'm not quite sure about. There's
plenty of soulstealers in fantasy that are not evil... but still.

Re: Chaos vs Order?
 

Hmm, well that's the tricky thing, you can justify all sorts of extraordinary and awful practices in the name of achieving a "good" cause (many news headlines come to mind). It's kind of disturbing, but also interesting to think about in Dominions terms since you would be the one responsible for said acts.

As for what good and evil mean, I think we're stuck with using the commonsense ideas we've inherited today to a certain extent. Of course if we tried to put ourselves in the shoes of a civilization from 3000 years ago, it would probably be different, but I'm not sure I'd want to be a barbarian. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Hey this gives me a new idea: Civilized people vs the barbarians. However this is also a rather big can of worms. Both Mel Gibson's Braveheart and Ghengis Khan come to mind. Maybe EA nations could fight LA ones or something.

Re: Chaos vs Order?
 

That could work. Just EA vs LA is too general though. EA Ermor is a civilized nation while LA Tien Chi would probably be barbaric.

Maybe the civilized nations should be at the center of the map and a larger number of barbaric nations scattered arround the edges.

Civilized nations should be forced to take order while barbarians take turmoil.

The one thing that makes this less interesting than the good vs. evil vs. neutral idea is that there is no real need for cooporation among or between the groups. This game would quickly become almost exactly the same as any other dominions game. If someone can come up with a way to make cooporation on both/one of the teams beneficial this could be a very interesting idea.