Which nations most represent chaos or evil?
 

Edit: for clarification, the first question applies to EA, the second to MA, and the last to LA. I got a bit tired and copy-pasted one too many fields.

Okay, I'm just looking for more ideas for my Good vs Evil, Chaos vs Order game here. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Re: Which nations most represent chaos or evil?
 

Please define evil.

Re: Which nations most represent chaos or evil?
 

I suppose its supposed to say EA, MA, and LA. yes?

Re: Which nations most represent chaos or evil?
 

Yes it is, good catch. Anyway evil is slightly easier to define. The Wikipedia definition of evil is actually pretty useful here. However it gets into some rather philosophical territory as well. Here is the preface to it:

I think it's pretty safe to say we would consider sacrificing blood slaves to fuel your nation's war effort is rather evil. Could you make an argument that perhaps the war is necessary, so therefor the sacrifice of the blood slaves serves a greater purpose. Well, maybe, but this might be venturing into murkier territory than we need to.

Perhaps we can suffice to say that evil nations in Dominions are ones whose pretender god is likely to engage in sadistic or malicious practices for personal gain, eg, sacrificing blood slaves, casting death magic global enchantments that would ruin the whole world, reanimating it's living citizens as ghouls, mind enslaving people and depriving them of free will, and so on. Basically the sort of nation you would want to run far far away from if you were one of those people living in one of those provinces on the map. Kind of a stretch maybe, but an interesting thought experiment too. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evil

Re: Which nations most represent chaos or evil?
 

I expect evil to be defined here as a culture of excessive cruelty and practicing the kind of things that would be abhorrent from a humanist point of view (human sacrifice, slavery etc etc). There are several nations in all eras that fit the definition of evil by those standards. The thing is, most of the nations are not evil as such, but can be depending on what sort of god they would follow. But take EA and LA Mictlan, LA Ermor, R'lyeh in all eras, Lanka, Yomi, Shinuyama and LA Marignon to name just a few, those an be considered directly evil.

Re: Which nations most represent chaos or evil?
 

I certainly don't agree about LA Marignon. They are about as 'evil' as MA Ermor - they try to control death/demons. Marignon is happy because the situation has stabilised. Demons are happy with their new revenue stream.

R'lyeh... They are not so much evil as uncaring. They treat humans and other intelligent beings as lower forms of life - similar to how humans treat animals. At least that's how they're described in Lovecraft's books. They dominate what they see as lower life forms. Compare to EA Arcoscephale. People of Arcoscephale are completely aware that slaves are people, too. Similar feelings, mental capacity, abilities, etc. Yet they benefit from slavery. They have time to engage in philosophy and arts because slaves perform all the menial tasks.

Lanka ? Lanka is dominated by demonic influence. Demons rule by fear. All the monkeys and apes aren't evil as such. They manage to overthrow their government by middle era.

Re: Which nations most represent chaos or evil?
 

The fact that Arcocephale practices slavery is interesting. Does this put them in the evil category then? Well maybe, but then again, by the standards of real world history around 3000 BC, maybe they weren't that bad. But it's a tricky question.

For the purposes of two faction game (which I admit may be over-simplified for a philosophical discussion), probably not since they would probably still oppose EA Mictlan's blood sacrificing demon holocaust. But then again, maybe Arcos would be indifferent or neutral as long as Mictlan's rituals didn't impact their way of life. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Of course when we're thinking about Acroscephale, we're also thinking about the ancient Greek city states that it was modeled on, so then things get more complicated if we want to get specific about which city-state and if we can really draw any comparisons. In any case, this is pretty interesting stuff. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Re: Which nations most represent chaos or evil?
 

Remember the Jotuns. They are evil per definition as enemies of the vanir (who in turn have no qualms on enslaving humans and other lesser beings).

I did not have the intention to do 'evil' or 'good' nations, but it might be fun to speculate in how evil a nation actually is. I have an easier time to see an 'evil' nation, since evil is in the eye of the beholder. Behold Mictlan and see what teh europeens saw in Mexico, and said it was evil. Any nation with connections to supernatural forces unfriendly to humans might be considered evil from a human perspective. The eye of the beholder works less well on 'good' nations. The 'great satan' of the rethoric of the late Ayatollah Khomeini considers itself to be the 'good' nation and 'defender of the free', even though many would argue the point. Swedes might consider sweden a nation of good sionce we have the secon highest tax pressure in the world and therefore have a good social security net (or whatever it is called). But Saudiarabia have income taxes at 2.5 % (not in the 50'es of sweden) and has is even lower hospital treatment costs than sweden. They cut the the hands of thieves, which might be percieved as cruel.

Hmm, I lost focus http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Since most nations are humans I think the nations directly hostile to humanity qualify as evil. Abysia, Mictlan, LA Ermor, Niefelheim, Lanka, Fomoria, Yomi, Shinuyama.

Vanheim, Helheim, Bandar Log, C'tis might be considered evil in the sense that they care little for humans, but C'tis at least have had friendly contacts with Ermor in earlier ages and is probably considered ancient instead of evil.

Pangaea is definitely evil as a force opposed to civilization. At least in the earlier ages. That assumption might make EA Ulm evil as well, since they are opposed to the ermorian civilization, hope of humanity.

Hmm, is it the culture of the nations we are speaking, or their leader or their God? Culturally LA Ulm might be nice, but their leaders possibly evil.

Interesting poll though http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Re: Which nations most represent chaos or evil?
 

Are shinuyama directly hostile to humans?

Re: Which nations most represent chaos or evil?
 

Not more than in a cannibalistic ands hedonistic sense.

Edit: dai bakemono are probably less so, being bound by honor. Shuten doji, o-bakemono and bakemono-sho are definitely hostile to men/man-eaters. Kappas are more capricious. Some like to drown humans and suck their entrails out, while others can be friendly.

Re: Which nations most represent chaos or evil?
 

Then they are not hostile, just tasters.

Hmmmm... How could Mictlan be hostile to humanity ? they are part of humanity.

Re: Which nations most represent chaos or evil?
 

Perhaps by taking slaves and sacrificing other humans to appease their god, but OTOH it might be their god that is always hostile to humanity and not the nation.

LA Mictlan are toads and not humans http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Re: Which nations most represent chaos or evil?
 

I think MA C'tis gets an honorable mention for chaos/evil. Even though their dominion doesn't kill population in the game, I imagine the miasma as an extremely hazardous event from a peasant's point of view. Maybe not evil in the "I starve kittens" kind of way, but perhaps evil in the way R'lyeh is evil.

(It's the apostrophe in their name that makes them treat humans so poorly)

Re: Which nations most represent chaos or evil?
 

The only two nations I view as truly evil are LA Ermor and R'lyeh, if victorious both essentially mean the end of all life on the planet.

I'm not sure where I get the distinction, but I marked EA Abysia as evil but not Mictlan. I wouldn't call Mictlan good either, but it's a nation of mere humans trying to survive against all sorts of nasties whereas Abysia was created by the direct intervention of creatures commonly thought to be inherently evil, and is still ruled by their descendants to this day. Also the focus on S in addition to B doesn't bode well for the future should they win.

Re: Which nations most represent chaos or evil?
 

Ryleh is totally evil, they starve kittens with the worst of them. Mind control? Calling C'thulu forth from the abyss? They are among the worst of the races, imo.

EA Ulm is a good nation, I have to disagree with KO. They are barbaric and opposed to civilization, but that's why they're good! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/laugh.gif

EA Pangea is also good, imo. They sacrifice virgins and destroy stuff in fits of bloodlust, but hey, wild nature demands blood sacrifice, and that stuff probably needed to be destroyed anyway.

I would say that MA or LA Marignon is among the worst of the nations as well. I know they summon angels and are very pious and relgious, but god doesn't everyone hate those kind of people. They are nazis.

I think good v evil is mostly a matter of opinion in this game, which is one reason why it is so cool.

Re: Which nations most represent chaos or evil?
 

Yes, I'd say good and evil depends on perspective. They could all be called either, or neither.

R'lyeh has a purpose that men can't truly hold in their minds, so perhaps their good or evil could be said to be unknowable my men.

LA Ermor might have some insight into the underworld that could lend sympathy to their cause. For one idea, perhaps the underworld is overflowing, and only ceasing the creation of new life can bring contentment to all souls. What's all this discrimination in favor of the living?

Re: Which nations most represent chaos or evil?
 

So what ? You don't like toads, you racist http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

I neither encourage the overcriticism against C'tis MA. OK, they stink, but they do not stink in an hostile mood. It's just the way they are. No offense intended. Fate, just fate... And also, the eternal rules of heterogeneous ecosystems competition. OK, I won't be happy having C'tis as a neighbour, me human. But neither will I having any neighbour at all as in Dom III (and many other games) your neighbours just appear to have a compulsive behaviour leading them to invade your own territories.

Ho well, after all, maybe evil is just another word for the guy in the next floor' http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...es/biggrin.gif

Re: Which nations most represent chaos or evil?
 

A pity the poll looks for chaos or evil. I mean, Pangaea is all about chaos, and LA Ermor is all about evil, but I wouldn't put them on the same playing field.

Re: Which nations most represent chaos or evil?
 

Some nations I just feel bad for, especially EA Agartha. Leaving their prime living environment (caves) to be slaughtered on the surface just because some god convinced them too. Its not even like they want to enslave humans or eat them, its just like "well then, shall we conquer the surface world" "well im tired of eating rocks, lets go!"

Others like the Tuatha nations, while some of there pastimes seem "good" (like music, art and such) they also violently tried to conquer Formoria, and enslave humans and Firblog too. I think this game really is just life...There are no good and evil and its just where you are looking from. If you are a Pale on or an Abyssian, watching your race slowly die is the highest form of evil, and should be fought at any cost. If your a Emorian Shadow Legionarre then reconquering the world for your empire is the "right" Thing. :p

Re: Which nations most represent chaos or evil?
 

I'd say EA R'lyeh Aboleths are the most objectively evil. 1-they're inherant mind-controllers and avowed slavers, 2-they're lobotomizers, and 3-they use their own immature offspring in war. They're utterly ruthless and almost utterly selfish.

The only saving grace they have, at all, is that they consider their females to be sacred, so they do care about the propagation of their species to some extent.

That goes well beyond emnity towards another species, as well as any "natural amorality". And they don't have the excuse of being insane, like later R'lyeh does.

By the way, I haven't noticed any R'lyeh nations summoning Cthulhu, but I sure would like to. Maybe someday the Devs can create an underwater/Lovecraft version of Tartarians?

Re: Which nations most represent chaos or evil?
 

Undead dagon siounds fun, and slimy.

Re: Which nations most represent chaos or evil?
 

It would make my whole week, Kristoffer.

Re: Which nations most represent chaos or evil?
 

If some or all of them were amphibious-which seems to make sense for undead-and if there were a variety of possible units you could get-undead Dagon, Void Lord, Ancient Kraken, maybe a Monolith? possibly an undersea version of Carrion Dragon that uses seaweed instead of vines, or an ancient temple that produces undead units?-off the top of my head,
then such a spell might work well as the center of an overall late game strategy for a nation that has trouble getting on land.

Re: Which nations most represent chaos or evil?
 

I actually wish there was chaos nation in this game without having to retort to using mods as I understand somone has made some warhammer mod nations.

Make a quess what nation is best in warhammer imo :-D

On nations of dom3 I think Abysia is closest to chaos nation and thus is evil on all ages. R'Lyeh: Ia Ia Cthulhu Fhtagn! says it all ages. Then is La Ermor the land of death.

And what makes human slavery/ritual sacrifices evil? Both of them have been practiced far longer than these modern day religomorals. In the end it's just about point of view.

Re: Which nations most represent chaos or evil?
 

This thread inspires me to create an Evil Old Man Pretender. He'll cost 175 and have Death, Astral, and Blood, Dom 2, and 50 point pathcost. He'll start old, but be immortal. He'll have Fear (0) and get stronger in darkness (3). Upon death, he'll turn into something horribly squishy.

Re: Which nations most represent chaos or evil?
 

That makes me want to work on a Wicked Witch of the West pretender. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Re: Which nations most represent chaos or evil?
 

Don't make me get my flying monkeys!

Re: Which nations most represent chaos or evil?
 

Considering how humans behave towards nature, I could entertain the idea that all of the human nations (okay, a few exceptions) are evil.

Re: Which nations most represent chaos or evil?
 

I'm pretty sure that there is a big difference between 'careless and nearsighted about some nonsentient foliage' and 'enslaving all that is living, and then slaughtering it to summon the darkest demons of hell to serve your needs'

Re: Which nations most represent chaos or evil?
 

Let's just say that the new nations of Hinnom and Ashdod make even Niefelheim look pretty cuddly in comparison and the frost giants aren't exactly friendly toward humans...

Re: Which nations most represent chaos or evil?
 

Nah, it's mostly Hinnom that is decidedly unfriendly. They are cannibalistic and quite depraved, but their successors of Ashdod no longer eat population and has become quite civilized. A bit morbid perhaps, but not really evil. They might still be viewed as evil by humans I suppose.

Gath is quite nice, but a bit tyrannical vs the human majority of the nation. The hard core giants are probably considered evil by the humans, but the humans and some giants are quite benevolent.

Re: Which nations most represent chaos or evil?
 

Heh, well, as I said, it is a defensible position that humans as a rule are evil - it's an equally defensible position that they are not.

Still, the fact remains that the vast majority of the nations in Dominions have some attributes that our modern society would regard as good and others that our society would regard as evil, and which are emphasized in the game is largely dependent upon who their pretender is. This is arguably true even of early and mid R'lyeh - the Elder Things in At the Mountains of Madness are no more and no less evil than human beings, and late R'lyeh is only evil because of its world-destroying dreamland dominion. There are also a handful of obvious good-evil dichotomies set within the same mythological backdrop, e.g. Tir'na n'Og versus Fomoria, Vanheim versus Helheim, Vanheim versus Niefelheim, Kailasa versus Lanka, etc. Apart from the bad sides of these pairings, the only other undeniably evil nations I can identify are late Ermor and late R'lyeh. Everybody else depends on your god.

Re: Which nations most represent chaos or evil?
 

As someone who has a played many games as Mictlan, I really don't think they are as bad a people make out. Everyone always points to the blood sacrifices, but they never mention that Mictlan doesn't tax their blood provinces. And unlike the other nations, which conscript vast numbers of their citizens into the military, Mictlan relies on a small, elite, all-volunteer army of jaguar warriors. And even the few slaves they do conscript are used for garrison duty and filling out the defense of castles. They rarely have to face combat. Really, it is more like jury duty. Also, Mictlan has a strong commitment to abstinence-only sex education, which is more than you can say for the various Pangea's.

Re: Which nations most represent chaos or evil?
 

Hmm. You could argue that Mictlan's low taxation and small militaries are an example of "small government". http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif Also, the environment is probably doing much better in Mictlan lands since they keep their population under control.

Re: Which nations most represent chaos or evil?
 

LA Ermor evil ?

What's evil in giving everybody eternal life ? Humanity wish since humans knows about mortality...

Re: Which nations most represent chaos or evil?
 

I think that oranges are pretty evil, but apples are good.

Re: Which nations most represent chaos or evil?
 

I think that people in this thread don't make the distinction between "Christian evil" and Evil in the broad sense of the term. All nations judged evil in this are the one that are evil in a "Christian" view of the world.

Evil in all religions is always the same : being evil means breaking rules that this particular religion made. Most of the rules religions, thankfully, work quite well to let people live their life in peace without fear of being harmed and shun upon the aspect that may endanger the human species as a whole. Consanguinity, homosexuality, murder, theft are examples of things that don't contribute to reproducing the species, and most religion consider them bad as a result (that's my opinion). At least, "successful" religions do that.

Within Dominions, religion is what you God says in the game. Therefore, as was probably was said before, Evil is what people that don't believe in your god do, Good people is what people that believe in you do.

Edit for clarity (bis).

Re: Which nations most represent chaos or evil?
 

I think that four legs are good, but two legs are baaad. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...es/biggrin.gif

Re: Which nations most represent chaos or evil?
 

why does everybody think that LA Ermor is bad yet EA Ermor, the people who unleashed death itself are some how much better

Re: Which nations most represent chaos or evil?
 

EA Ermor didn't unleash anything. The Cataclysm happened after their time, before Middle. I think the Cataclysm has something to do with a Prince of Death and calling forth too many Tartarians.

Re: Which nations most represent chaos or evil?
 

I would personally find evil to be raising the dead, sacrificing blood slaves, summoning demons. Course if you look at it they are all a bit evil. They all are trying to force their beliefs on others by force and if the other person does not accept it they die. How is that not evil?

Re: Which nations most represent chaos or evil?
 

If we are lookin at this from a human perspective then even Pangaea can be evil. They are tryin to take back the forest arent they or am I confused? I would not consider them evil. And late age ermor is slightly evil by resurrecting all of the dead(who should remain dead) to do battle with the living. But it is a damn fun nation to play if your in the mood!!!

Re: Which nations most represent chaos or evil?
 

Naaah. LA Ermor tries to force its beliefs on others, and if they do accept it they die. In most other cases, if someone doesn't accept your beliefs you build more temples around them until they DO. Annoying, sure. Evil? Only in the same sense as telemarketers.

-Max