Which nations represent order and good?
 

Edit: for clarification, the first question applies to EA, the second to MA, and the last to LA. I got a bit tired and copy-pasted one too many fields.

Same as before, looking for Good vs Evil, Order vs Chaos themes. Nations with grudges against each other, eg Pythium and Ermor, or Lanka and Kailasa are also helpful. Note, there are some nations like Marignon who might represent order, but are problematic because of the techniques they use (inquisitors!). This also makes things more complicated.

Re: Which nations represent order and good?
 

Please define good. By the way, I like Dominions because it's mostly free of such cliche concepts.

Re: Which nations represent order and good?
 

I interpreted most neutral but certainly not evil nations as falling in this category though

Re: Which nations represent order and good?
 

Okay, check out the post on evil nations for contrast..

http://www.shrapnelcommunity.com/thr...&type=post

Actually one of the tricky things about Dominions is that sometimes I think all the nations are evil in the sense that they are probably mostly fairly authoritarian and brutish societies and they all want to win at the expense of all the other nations (at least if their pretender god has his or her way).

But if we step back a bit, well there are a lot of neutral nations, a few that fit fairly closely to Judeo-Christian standards of "goodness" or "godliness". Caelum comes to mind - they're a bunch of winged angels after all. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif Let's just say for now the good or neutral nations are the ones who do not rely heavily on death or blood magic, do not enslave minds and generally treat their people better than the evil nations. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Re: Which nations represent order and good?
 

None of the nations are good as such. PRactically all of them would have cultural practices that would range from suspect to outright horrifying from a humanist perspective. From the same premises, it is however easy to define several nations as evil.

Re: Which nations represent order and good?
 

Yeah, I think you are right. The question of what is good is interesting though. Technically if you were one of the citizens of those nations, being good would mean doing what your pretender god wants you to do, even if it meant dealing out some of Old Testament style havoc upon the unbelievers. Of course today, from a humanist standpoint we would consider such acts atrocities or war crimes.

Dominions has some interesting religious implications when you sit down and think about it. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

This kind of changes the concept of the game I wanted to put together though. Instead of Good vs Evil, it has become Not As Bad vs Evil. This is the problem I used the idea "Good or Order", which I'm afraid only complicates things

Re: Which nations represent order and good?
 

I'm not sure how to vote; so many of them benefit from order scales, and I haven't played all of them yet.

I am reasonably sure that LA C'tis and Agartha aren't evil, or are at least ethical for necromancer-based nations.

Re: Which nations represent order and good?
 

Any nation that stops my plan of world domination is evil.

Re: Which nations represent order and good?
 

Who voted for Yomi in EA? I'd love to hear why.

Re: Which nations represent order and good?
 

Im honestly Bogarus got any votes. While they may have an amount of intellectual "Freedom" Im not sure the religion could be considered friendly, even to their own people.

Re: Which nations represent order and good?
 

Personally, I consider LA Man to be one of the most positive socities, in terms of internal benevolence (benefits for own people) and a lack of any major sketchy practices (e.g. institutionalized torture or human sacrifice).

In an age when death-magic and world-consuming powerhouses spread widely, with magic on the decline, the nation with strong civic/mundane educational practices has a big edge on the "benevolence" count. While most nations are in decline and decay, Man has turned its decline into a new path that is only just beginning, and would reap serious long-term benefits. Ulm turned away from the path of craft/technology between MA and LA, leaving Man to carry the banner of post-magic progress.

Re: Which nations represent order and good?
 

I would generally say that MA and LA Arco, Man (all eras), Eriu, Tir na n'Og, Tien Chi (practically all eras) and Ulm in EA and MA could be characterized as good. Utgård doesn't seem too bad either. Pythium in both MA and LA is also fairly good. MA Mictlan is perhaps the most directly goody-twoshoes nation. Ermor in EA is also a fairly nice one.

Marverni and the Van nations as well, except for the bit about the occasional human sacrifice.

From the point of view of being a citizen of one of them, that is. Hell, I'd pick any one of those for myself when compared to EA or LA Mictlan, any era Abysia, Gath, Hinnom or Ashdod, Yomi, Shinuyama, Lanka, R'lyeh or the other nonhuman nations or Machaka. Marignon is out due to ****ty living conditions and misery in the MA and devil worship and blood sacrifices in the LA.

MA Tien Chi would perhaps be the most tranquil and ordered one, or perhaps MA Ulm, with the greatest safety factor for the average citizen.

Re: Which nations represent order and good?
 

MA Agartha is nice, but sad. It's orderly and good, but already in the decline. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/frown.gif It's so sad, really, especially because Agarthans mostly are worse than the other races.

Re: Which nations represent order and good?
 

EA and MA Kailasa never really seemed like they meant to harm anyone...

Re: Which nations represent order and good?
 

You know, I was reading in the manual that EA Arco keeps slaves to support their way of life. There's not enough detail to tell whether MA and LA Arco do this. However it does rather complicate the question of who is evil if they do keep slaves. Maybe KO can help us out here. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

Re: Which nations represent order and good?
 

I think LA Agartha is probably one of the "good guys", as far as anyone can be in Dominions 3. They may be all about necromancy and suchlike, but it seems more like they really respect the dead Pale Ones and at their very least ethical, they use mindless corpses as slave labor, which is arguable one way or the other as far as ethics go considering that it's not like they chain up some poor sap's soul for all of eternity or something, they just use abandoned bodies for heavy lifting. Pretty interesting considering that undead are cool as hell and every single other game always makes anyone who trucks with them out to be worse than six Hitlers tied together with snakes.

Re: Which nations represent order and good?
 

I'd say slavery is less common in the later ages of Arcoscephale. A distant war of conquest brings less slaves than war with neighbours. Still, they probably use slaves for utilities sake. Slaves make the lives of the rich pleasant. Why abolish something like that. If you dislike how they are treated, treat your slaves good http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

I would say most dominions nations use slaves to some extent. Abolishment is a quite new invention, and has always (more or less) come in conflict with political interests of competitive rulers of the nation. If times are peaceful, culture and religion thriving, slavery mighht be questioned. But if the nation competes with other nations over land, wealth or other resources, a slavery that further political interests of the nations less likely to be questioned. Religion might be exception to this. Since faith does not need manual labour to prosper it can safely stand against slavery and inhuman treatment and actually benefit from it.

I dominions you might speculate that a nation with strong dominion and order probably is more likely to abolish slavery. Every one is a believer and everyone knows his place in society. If everyone is working properly, there is perhaps less need for slaves. On the other hand, slavery in an orderly dominion might be ordered by god and less likely to disappear. If priests of a centralized faith have a strong influence, part in competition with the temporal powers of the nation, things might look even brighter. Pythium for example might have a history of slavery, but if your dominion is benevolent it might be that the Theurgs are taking a stand against it.

So to answer the question on MA and LA Arco: Your priestesses are not very influential, but might well oppose slavery, depending on your god's dominion. The general populace is probably quite satisfied with the slaves they got. If you have a long period of peace you might imagine that slaves become luxury, since no new slaves are imported. With slaves increasing in price they might get treated better, get possibility to buy themselves free, and eventually slavery will become marginalized.
The sibyls might place a ban on slavery, also depending on the will of god.

Re: Which nations represent order and good?
 

Slavery was also different from place to place and at different times. Historically the kind of racial, generational slavery we had in the US was rare. Usually it was war captives and there were often ways to earn freedom.

Not to defend slavery, but it was a way of life in much of the ancient world. To class societies as evil just because they had slaves is glossing over the differences. Greece, Rome, biblical Israel, Egypt, all the foundations of western civilization. All used slaves.

Re: Which nations represent order and good?
 

Hmm, here's a tricky thing though: Nazi Germany was an orderly place, but they also did many horrible things I won't bother mentioning. So it seems difficult to say that order equals goodness. When I started the thread, I was probably thinking of the old D&D cliche where lawful = good and chaotic = evil, and perhaps other people are too. I suppose one could say that Nazi Germany had death scales if you were to translate it into Dominions.

Or maybe there could be scales that explicitly define "goodness" vs "badness" or enlightened and unenlightened scales or purely roleplaying or character related scales. So then maybe Nazi Germany prefers "badness" scales and EA Mictlan like unenlightened or barbaric scales because they blood sacrifice. Of course this is probably not practical, but it interesting to speculate on what it would mean since we've opened up this can of worms. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Re: Which nations represent order and good?
 

Russia had a very odd form of slavery. People essentially sold themselves into it for a given time frame, usually a year. The practice obviously developed as a way to hire laborers for farms. However, since slaves did not pay taxes, in the 16th century a lot of Russian elites sold themselves into a gentler kind of slavery to get off of tax rolls!

In general, however, I'd say slavery is an evil institution, but its existence does not doom the entire civilization to being evil.

Re: Which nations represent order and good?
 

Would those Russian slaves be Kholops? What a way to get out of debt, if your masters had the option to kill you. I suppose the elites didn't have to worry about this.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kholop

Re: Which nations represent order and good?
 

Maybe, unfortunately, I lent my copy of "Russia's First Civil War" to my brother and cannot look it up, though I'm pretty sure the author uses the term slave. It was during this time, early 1600's, that those who had sold themselves into slavery were made into permanent slave, essentially enserfing the Russian peasants at a time the rest of Europe had freed their serfs.

http://www.psupress.org/books/titles/0-271-02074-1.html

Re: Which nations represent order and good?
 

Good is objectively defined by god, so all nations are good nations in the eyes of their gods.

Re: Which nations represent order and good?
 

Bogarus religion isn't bad, they just have some very fanatical members, Yomi is not evil it is jut very chaotic, and Abysia is not evil, it is just a land of fire elementals

Re: Which nations represent order and good?
 

Not to go too deep into this thread necromancy...

Isn't Yomi a nation of cannibalistic demons? (Well not really cannibals, they eat people not each other.) Or am I misremembering? Oni are traditionally evil, I believe.

Abysia is, especially in the later ages, all about demon summoning flame people. It's the demon summoning, not the fire that makes them evil. EA I'm not as familiar with.

Re: Which nations represent order and good?
 

LA Patala is good, I'm surprised it got so few votes.
I think Van nations are really pretty good too.
Oceania, Man, Tien'chi and Jomon are good too.

Re: Which nations represent order and good?
 

Oceania is really (really!) big on racial superiority and purity. Patala nagas totally exploit their monkey population. Van are warlike conquerors who live for the thrill of combat and sacrifice their battle captives to their gods. You won't hear me arguing that their aren't more evil nations in the game, bacause there definitely are, but they certainly aren't shining paragons of morality.

Re: Which nations represent order and good?
 

Vans all have blood magic and I think they can all blood sacrifice too? This alone puts them in the evil camp. I am not sure the sneaky/pillage side to them really helps either http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif Granted they are the enemies of the Giants (another evilish race) but I think they are still more evil than good.

Re: Which nations represent order and good?
 

they are sort of the good guys in norse mythology I'd say so that makes them good from a certain point of view blood sacrifice or not. Who are you to judge them http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/laugh.gif

Re: Which nations represent order and good?
 

Isn't LA Patala a small cadre of otherworldly serpents who rule their monkey underclass through hypnotism?

Re: Which nations represent order and good?
 

Underworldly serpents. Otherwise correct http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Re: Which nations represent order and good?
 

Oh, right... that adds bonus points for "order" but a penalty on the "good" part. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

Plus, when I play them, the Serpent warriors are the front-line defenders for the monkey archers, so the Naga are fair rulers. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif


Right, I forgot the Van ... probably because of those blood sacrifices.

Re: Which nations represent order and good?
 

As long as Christianity isnt bad, I suppose ))))
P.S.
No nation represents 'good' in Dominions, though some are more orderly and/or 'humane' than others. MA Marignon, for example, is rather orderly and even deals with Angels, yet they are cruel bastards who burn people alive just for thinking different (or being framed, or being too rich when the Crown needs money). Not good if you ask me.

Re: Which nations represent order and good?
 

Very good if you ask me http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Re: Which nations represent order and good?
 

the only problem people really have with Bogarus are the khlyst's who are the most radical part of their church, everything else is pretty normal

Re: Which nations represent order and good?
 

As far as I understand Khlysts are mad heretical freaks, probably hunted down until the last Patriarch has seized power, just as their historical counterparts were. Note that even patriarch Alexej who free-spawns them is an 'ex' Khlyst:

- He joined the Khlysty at a young age, but left the cult after a brief encounter with Blood magic. After several years as the student of an old and remarkably skilled occultist, he reembarked upon the journey to priestly power. His former dedication to the Khlysty gave him popular leverage and he became one of the first Exarchs with a Khlyst background.

So Khlysts may be a force to be reconed with, but they arent a part of the Church - officially anyway.

Re: Which nations represent order and good?
 

Eriu is one of the closest nations to being good, as the Sidhe and a few lingering Tuatha have volunteered to return and aid their conquerors in the wider world. Generally water-magic or nature based nations are more closely aligned to being on the side of "good" than "evil"; Pangaea is not so much evil or good but amoral, emotional, and animalistic. The nations of Tir Na N'Og aren't really all that bad despite a warlike past, as they celebrate art and poetry as much as war. The Tuatha/Fir Bolg are a much less warlike version of the Van of Vanheim, and are more quickly banished and defeated (whether ironic or intentional, i also have a much harder time making Tir or Eriu work in-game than any of the much more effective Van nations.)

Of the three subsea nations, Oceania is by far the least sinister. Atlantis is strange and monstrous, but Ryleh is of course evil and alien.

Tien Chi is probably a reasonably good empire; it's failings are ones of external conquest, but it's underpinnings of the "way" remain.

Ulm and Marverni aren't so much good but proud half-civilized marginal nations. Marverni sort of wishes they could commit atrocities but aren't particularly good at them.

Man could be considered good if you don't think too hard about their past http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif. But as a feudal nation they're good only in the broadest sense of the word.

Pythium and Arco are probably a good nation insofar as an Empires can be considered good. Marignon gives in to the fear of death and makes pact with the "lesser" evil; Ulm is somehow corrupted (the nature of the "Night of Treason" isn't explained or foreshadowed much in 2nd age Ulm) and becomes a dark shadow of it's former stern self.

Re: Which nations represent order and good?
 

Since 'good' is a rather undefined post, lets make it more simple. Imagine you're an indie villager and your province is about to be conquered. You'd prefer your new masters to be...
(choose a nation).
http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif
I think most nations will be ruled out because they either make you a slave, sacrifice you, kill you just to make room for their offspring, eat you or make you a zombie. Some nations certainly feel 'acceptable' though, many others seem better than most. For example, LA Vanheim seems better than LA Mictlan, and Man is always preferable to Marignon.

Re: Which nations represent order and good?
 

I find it extremely hard to characterise many of the nations as "Good". What you call "good" - using a Westernised RL definition - is a nation that you perceive that looks after it's population reasonably fairly, and potentially treats other nations humanely.

You could draw from Pythium and Marignon's description, for instance, they are trying to save itself from the corruption of Ermor, the former probably much more benevolently than the religious zeal of the latter. MA Ermor might have been corrupted by death magic from EA, but they're trying to fend it off (and we can gather they fail from LA).

Re: Which nations represent order and good?
 

It's been said before, but I'll say it again:

There are a handful of nations that are obviously evil, but most of the nations in Dominions can be largely good, largely evil, or mixed, depending on who their god is, and the vast majority of nations in the game have access to both good and evil gods (e.g. the master druid versus the lich).

Consider EA Arcocephale for instance, which is nation 0 on the list and probably one of the first nations we become familiar with. Apart from institutionalized slavery, EA Arcocephale has all of the hallmarks of being a good nation: priestesses that study healing and nature magic, an alliance with noble nature spirits of the mountains, and a culture that values knowledge and learning. Combine all of these with a Virtue or an Athena-style female titan and you have a kingdom of goodness and light. But what if your pretender is a Moloch instead?

Re: Which nations represent order and good?
 

That's true - you could make an apologetic Dom-4 Pretender with full good scales for Ashen Empire Ermor. She's not trying to kill you, sorry about that whole death dominion thing! Or take Tir Na N'Og with full Misfortune, Drain, and Death, and make a monster SC pretender.

Which points out that the nation might tend towards one side or another, the god that you choose to create for them reflects their current alignment more than their historical background.

Re: Which nations represent order and good?
 

Evil trying to be good are doomed to destruction by even greater evil.

Re: Which nations represent order and good?
 

I would say Pangaea is a good nation even if they have to kick us lousy humans on our asses a few times to rebuild nature. haha

Re: Which nations represent order and good?
 

you can play with the most enlightened or most holy nation and ruin its "goodness" by putting in the prince of death.