Global War (use new thread pls)
 

GOOD v EVIL v NEUTRAL

On the brink of global war.

Over the centuries, a group of shining, virtuous nations have formed a pact for mutual defense and peaceful coexistence. This small group of kingdoms worships a pantheon of gods, all different -- yet all the same. Five aspects of the same all-powerful god. They will stand as one in the upcoming War of Ascension. All will rise to glory, or all will fall into the pit of Tartarus for eternal suffering.

Another group of nations, evil, vicious, has also arisen. They, too, all worship different aspects of the same god, yet this god is so posionous that It has corrupted their minds and they do not understand their linked fate. They too will rise to glory as one, or fall into disgrace, but they are too blinded by arrogance to realize this essential fact. They want nothing but to expand across the globe, killing and enslaving any nation which stands in their way, preferably the "good" ones. They are not organized, but far more numerous than the League of Virtue.

Only a couple nations remain neutral in this upcoming fight. They may trade will anyone, good or evil, but their Council of Elders are isolationist in nature, and they will not permit coordinated military action with any other faction, including other neutrals. They may seem to be completely doomed, without hope, but their Gods are strong and their merchants shrewd, and they have been blessed with an abundance of material wealth.

GOOD

Disadvantages:
-The League of Virtue is few in number: 5 factions.
-They despise Death and Blood magic, and are forbidden to use these paths (except for anti-undead spells such as Wither Bones). They cannot trade for death or blood items with NEUTRALS. If they happen upon a blood site, they must let these slaves sit and rot in their vault. Do NOT use them for ANY purpose. Death gems, however, may be used solely to alchemetize to astral pearls.
Addendum: GOOD races are forbidden from having death or blood magic on their pretender, whether through pretender selection or empowerment. In fact, they can not empower in blood or death at all. Remember the only use for death gems is for alchemy, and blood slaves are completely useless to GOOD (they are freed).
-They are forbidden to have any contact with the EVIL races (Do not discuss the game -at all- with any of these races).
-They are limited in the topics they may discuss with the NEUTRAL races (see the NEUTRAL races for more detail).
-They are forbidden from eliminating their own players.
-They are forbidden from possessing the capital of another GOOD player (except temporarily if it has been conquered), unless that player has been defeated or turned AI.

Advantages:
-They will all start together (they have each other's back).
-They are able to talk and discuss amongst themselves freely, by e-mail, in game contact -- any method and any topic.
-If one of them dies, (s)he may give all items and gems to others in the League.

Victory Conditions
-Elimination of all EVIL players.
-Possession of all GOOD capitals.


EVIL

Disadvantages:
-They are forbidden to have any contact with the GOOD or EVIL races (Do not discuss the game -at all- with any of these races). EVIL cannot plan strategies or coordinate their efforts in -any- way. They cannot trade screenshots. They cannot -talk at all- amongst themselves.
-They cannot discuss their Pretender choices before the game starts.
-Each has a "secret enemy": There will be one Evil race that your race cannot tolerate. You have held such a grudge over the centuries that you will refuse to Ascend if that race is going too. You -must- eliminate that race, or if this is impossible, ensure that their God is dead or that their capital is in the hands of an enemy at the time of the Ascension. If you fail at this, you will fall into Tartarus!
-Each is prohibited from giving anything to any other faction upon their death.
-They are limited in the topics they may discuss with the NEUTRAL races (see the neutral races for more detail).
-They are randomly distributed throughout the world.

Advantages:
-They are overwhelmingly numerous: 8 factions.
-They may corrupt all forms of magic for their own use.
-They may eliminate their own players at will.

Victory Conditions
-Elimination of all GOOD and NEUTRAL players.


NEUTRALS

Disadvantages:
-They are limited in the topics they may discuss with all races. They may discuss: trading gold, gems, items, provinces, world maps (screenshots). Non-aggression pacts. "Please stop x (inciting unrest, etc.)" messages. No coordinated military actions with -any- other faction!! No trading military info on your personal nation beyond what you can show in world-map screenshots. You are -forbidden- to trade battle screenshots.
Addendum: General rumors are perfectly fine to communicate to anyone. As long as your rumors do not involve military actions of your forces, that is fine. For example, you can say: "Ermor has got the Chalice, I saw it on one of his units!" Is fine, but saying "He's got the Chalice, let's gang up on him. You attack province #14, I'll take #22" is not fine. Also, giving a screenshot of the Chalice in the hands of the enemy is also not acceptable.

--> If they trade screenshots to an EVIL player, that EVIL player is honor-bound not to show them to his/her allies. All EVIL players must purchase the screenshots individually from the NEUTRAL players if they want to see how the world looks apart from their own corner of it.

-Each NEUTRAL race is prohibited from giving anything to any other faction upon their death. All trades must be legit -- no trading 1000 gold for 100 gold. You are honor-bound to play in your own self-interest.
Addendum - NEUTRAL races are stubbornly proud and will refuse to give tribute to any race for any purpose. Trades which are slightly uneven are okay, as long as it is debateable. Simply handing 1000 gold to the nearest EVIL race "Please don't kill me" is not allowed. (i.e. making an unfair trade as a plea for survival (being a "forge *****") is not allowed). NEUTRAL races will live free, or die!

-They are on their own. There are 2 NEUTRAL races, but they are not a team.
-They are randomly distributed throughout the world.

Advantages:
-They may use all forms of magic.
-They may eliminate any player at will.
-They are the only players the EVIL factions can say anything to, including their own allies!
-They are extremely weathly: they start the game with 1500 gold and 10 gems of every type.

Victory Conditions
-Standard Dominions victory condition: There Can Be Only One. Ascend or get thrown into Tartarus! Sucks to be you, NEUTRAL guys.

Remember if you kill all of the EVIL races first and don't hold any GOOD capitals, you lose. You sort of have to attack both.

Settings
Mods:Conceptual Balance Mod 1.21, Global Mod
Map: Orania
Indies 3
Site Frequency 45
Money 100
Resources 125
Supplies 100
Random events common
Score Graphs on
Hall of Fame 15
Difficult Research
Renaming On

Players

GOOD (5)
Tuidjy - MA Pythium
DonCorazon - EA Tir Na Nog
Hoplosternum MA Tien Chi
CUnknown - MA Ulm
Moderation - LA Arcosephale

EVIL (9)
Cerlin - MA Abysia
Ylvali - EA Sauromatia
Rathar - LA Ermor
Fal - EA Lanka
Folket - MA Bandar Log
Randvek LA Mictlan
Sicaire - MA C'tis
DryaUnda - MA Machaka
otthegreat - LA Ulm

NEUTRALS (3)
QM - MA Shinuyama
IndyPendant - MA Ryleh
Kheldron - MA Pangea

My IP: 97 dot 81 dot 86 dot 245
Port: 2001

Re: Global War, recruiting!
 

I really love this idea! I am totally in!
This is really fun theme. I would be a Evil or Neutral faction...Still thinking which one I want. With all the moral discussion recently this one seems really great.
I will get back to you on which faction. You probably want a better player than me being the Neutral but if no one will do it I will.

Re: Global War, recruiting!
 

I think that the evil races will win easily on a small map, so please
make a bigger one. I would like to have Pythium.

By the way are you playing? If you are, I'll be very glad to have you as
Ulm on our team... but I am sure the good races will lose.

Re: Global War, recruiting!
 

It will be around 15 provinces per player, or about 210 provinces is what I am thinking.

Is there any way you can think to balance it out? Should we have 5 Good races, or 3 Neutrals? Actually, having more Neutrals may even help Evil.. they'd have more trading partners, and they can eliminate some of them and still trade.

In the beginning, it will likely be 6 (good + neutral) v 8 (evil). And the neutrals will be super-factions in the beginning. Is that so horribly unbalanced? I'm afraid that 7 v 8 might make it hard for Evil to win.

Is your Pythium MA or LA? Good, Neutral, or Evil?

Yes, I was thinking about playing unless people think we need an offical officiator. Then I can just referee.

Re: Global War, recruiting!
 

I'm not sure how this will pan out, but I'll tentatively claim one of the neutral slots. I would suggest loosening the diplo restrictions on neutral players, I think so long as they don't do any mutual attack agreements/coordination, they should be free to spread what ever (mis)information they want.

EDIT: Evil factions should be able to use bogus orders and mist of deception/damage enchantments. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

Re: Global War, recruiting!
 

Cool idea!

I'm in another game now, so I'll pass, but it sounds very interesting. I'll check in and see how it goes.

Re: Global War, recruiting!
 

Okay, QM, Neutrals will be able to talk about whatever they want -except- for coordinating military strikes. I just thought that it was simplier to limit them than tempt them into saying too much.

I mean, can they say: "I am at war with so-and-so. He's got this. I have these forces here with this objective." That is tantamount to military coordination, imo.

In fact, I think I am changing my mind again.. I don't think Neutrals should be allowed to discuss their forces or military objectives. Maybe trading battle screenshots should be okay?

Re: Global War, recruiting!
 

Which Pythium? just curious http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Re: Global War, recruiting!
 

I don't think they should be able to discuss their plans, but anything they want to about the current situation, or what they think other nations might be up to.

Re: Global War, recruiting!
 

Just hearsay and musing? May be interesting, you would have to trust the neutral player to limit it though...

Re: Global War, recruiting!
 

Okay, sounds good QM. Let's make discussing military forces (anyones) off limits, and giving battle screenshots is also off-limits.

But, if you want to say "Hey, I think Ermor is researching to Tartarians, we should gang up on him."

Wait, is that okay?

See, I don't think that is okay, either.

Maybe just as long as all military plans are off limits, including yours. Like, is saying "Just thought you might want to know, Ermor is probably researching like crazy. I think he wants Tartarians, he'll probably get them in 5-10 turns." that okay? Thing is... if the person you are talking to knows you are attacking them currently, then that is almost an attempt at military coordination, imo.

Re: Global War, recruiting!
 

Maybe more just like rumors from around the world?

"I hear Pythium and Abysia are at war...and its a stalemate" or something may be ok. That is a pretty neutral statement but at the same time could be used by either side kinda thing.

Re: Global War, recruiting!
 

This. is. awesome!

I have to play this game. I would like to take MA Ermor, Neutral Faction.

And I will suspend my meta-gaming policies (for those that have any clue what I am talking about) for this game as well. ; )

Re: Global War, recruiting!
 

Rumors are cool! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Just no mention of your personal forces. You shouldn't say "I am at war with Ermor." Although you can give a screenshot of the map where Ermor is seiging your capital.

Neutral factions are going like hotcakes!! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Maybe we should allow 3 Neutrals? It's just that I am actually worried about Evil. They should be an unstoppable hoard in the beginning. 8 v 7 is actually not that bad of odds, especially if 3 of the 7 are super-factions with bonuses in the beginning like Iron Mines.

Re: Global War, recruiting!
 

Maybe adding more neutrals and making them rumor mills? Like it tends to be going? Maybe giving them a little less gold (like 1000?) Just an idea. If you had 3 of them instead of 2 that may make it more balanced for both sides? So even if people cannot communicate they can get hints and rumors from the neutral players, so they would have value of traders historically. Passing along some hint of how the world is going? And maybe all players could use vague AAR's in the thread to make it interesting? Just some ideas.

Re: Global War, recruiting!
 

But who would such tartarian scare tactics work on? If it's an evil race with them, evil races would probably not be too worried, while good races are probably already committed to fighting them. And vica versa if a good race had tartarians. And if the other neutral race had them... well as you say, them winning would be very difficult, it would be rather obvious if the game was going that way. The same argument pretty much applies to any military strength or weakness a neutral race could tip people off too. The only way I can really see a neutral race getting in trouble is mentioning plans to attack a specific player or province, which should be easy to avoid.

Re: Global War, recruiting!
 

Sounds good, QM. We will leave it at that. It is prohibited to say "I am attacking province #14. You attack #22."

Let's leave battle screenshots as illegal, since that will just increase the Neutral's ability to be rumor-mills. They won't have to actually back up what they're saying with fact. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

Re: Global War, recruiting!
 

I would play, any side, if yo play PBEM

Re: Global War, recruiting!
 

You want PBEM? I'd really rather just set up a server. PBEMs are such pains for the host.

Re: Global War, recruiting!
 

I agree CU! It would be really fun to have them just make up misinformation too. SO both sides will have to try to keep good relations with the Neutrals, especially the evil.

On this note I will make the dive into the evil end as being the first, I shall be MA Abyssia!

Re: Global War, recruiting!
 

Pbem is more convenient sometimes, I especially realized this on my last trip to Japan. I can play either however.

Re: Global War, recruiting!
 

I am extremely lenient as far as hosting times. If you want an extension, for any reason whatsoever, I will give it. I will often even give unasked for extensions if you have never staled before. I hate to see people stale who are interested in the game. However, once you start staling and not asking for extensions, you won't get any and I might even force host before the time is up if you are the last player, b/c I like a fast-moving game.

Re: Global War, recruiting!
 

I 'd love to join in to defend the forces of light from the cancerous evil that plagues the land (George Bush?).

Re: Global War, recruiting!
 

If you want rumors, the GM should do it. I think that the only communication
outside the Good league should be a trading thread.

And for my Pythium, it would be MA. I think that the good guys would be
best off with MA Pythium/Marignon/Mictlan/Ulm. By the way, my line up is more
for thematic reasons than for brute force. All four nations are human and seem
to care about their population.

But the more I think about it, the more I believe that the Good are doomed if
the neutrals are allowed to talk besides trade. If I were a neutral, and knew
that at the end ...

Hmm... Why am I not playing EA Jotunheim as neutral, again? :-)

Re: Global War, recruiting!
 

Perhaps there should be 5 Good factions.

I keep waffling back and forth on the Neutral talking-ability thing. The best thing about Good is that they can discuss freely.. We should all vote on this issue to decide it.

Re: Global War, recruiting!
 

One other things that doesn't make a lot of sense to me is how evil races can make deals (and NAPs) with neutrals, but not other evils. I guess there is not a good way around this though.

EDIT: But the coordination with other good races is primarily of value because you are on the same page with them, you all have the same victory condition.

Re: Global War, recruiting!
 

I would like to play as one of the good guys. I haven't decided which one though yet....

Re: Global War, recruiting!
 

Okay, you are in Hoplosternum.

I am also jumping into the Good team as MA Ulm.

I think the Good team should be raised to 5 players, does anyone have any objections?

I do think that the ban on death magic should remain for them, though. Unless other people agree with Tuidjy that death isn't all bad? Death-rebirth cycle kind of thing?

Edit: I will continue hosting if I am eliminated early, don't worry about that. Rush me if you like, I don't take offense. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Re: Global War, recruiting!
 

I would agree with 5, sounds ok to me. Though it does make the coordinations of the evil nations more glaring. I assume you will put th good nations in proximity and the evil may be more random?

Re: Global War, recruiting!
 

I´d like to be evil as Sauromatia.

Re: Global War, recruiting!
 

I think I´d really enjoy roleplaying evil. I suppose the evil players are supposed to really act evil in the game.

I understand the rule about no communication, but it kind of hampers the evil roleplaying possibilities. Like lying and stabbing allies in the back and other very evil things, but I guess it might be necessary.

Re: Global War, recruiting!
 

Maybe we should raise Neutrals to 3 players as well? That doesn't hurt evil too bad, because they might even fight amongst themselves at some point.

Also, we could raise Evil to 9 players. Then it would be 8 (5+3) v 9 in the beginning. Good would really rely on the neutrals to not be overwhelmed. Of course we should maybe wait to see if we get that many players.

Re: Global War, recruiting!
 

I'd like to play if there are any slots left. I prefer the good guys but am okay with the other factions. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

I like how CUnkown balanced out the Good vs Neutral vs Evil factions with different advantages and victory conditions. Of course we can all talk philosophically about what good and evil mean forever, but it looks like it will be an interesting gameplay element.

Re: Global War, recruiting!
 

Moderation! It is good to see you here! after all your strong defense of honor and "right" on these forums its thematic! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

Re: Global War, recruiting!
 

Ha! I had logged back in to check to see if I could change my nation from Neutral MA Ermor to Good MA Ulm. Doh! If you ever change your mind, CUnknown, I'd like to switch. ; ) Otherwise, I'll stay as I am.

Suggestion: Allow good nations to trade *away* any death gems and/or blood slaves to the neutral nations?

Re: Global War, recruiting!
 

Making it work:
Evil Players:
Rather than counting on 'sportmanship' to make evil players follow the rules, let's give them a simple, logical, reason to be paranoid maniacs.

The victory conditions for each evil race are simple:
1.Eliminate all good and neutral players.
2.In order for an evil nation to win, the one aspect of the evil god that their evil aspect of the god truly hates must be defeated. This evil nation is their secret enemy.

In plain terms, each evil nation is told, on recieving Turn 1, which evil nation is it's secret enemy and must be defeated in order for them to win. Keeping this in mind, each evil race is free to share whatever information they like with other evil nations during pretender creation.
A few explanations:
A.There are no face-offs. The evil nation that you must destroy DID NOT recieve your nation as it's secret enemy. Thus, the nation that you must defeat is the only evil nation that you can be certain is not out to destroy you.
B.If all good and neutral players are eliminated, and only evil nation A has been eliminated, then only one evil nation wins, the evil nation that had evil nation A as it's secret enemy.
C.In no evil nations have been eliminated at the time all good and neutral nations have been eliminated, a wild internal fight will break out until one evil nation achieves the victory conditions. That evil nation is the only winner. The only exception is if multiple evil nations are eliminated in the same turn.
D.If more than one evil nation has been defeated at the time all good and neutral nations have been eliminated, then all the evil nations that have eliminated their enemy evil nation win.

That should keep the evil nations playing evil.

Neutral Nations:
To keep them from being elinated immediately, each neutral nation should start with 15 immobile Watchers in their capital. This makes rushing them virtually impossible.

Good Nations:
Given the problems added to evil nations, and the difficulty of a neutral nation defeating everyone else, a complete ban on Death and Blood is reasonable. A ban on blood-hunting to a nation with no blood hunters isn't very much of a restriction anyway. You are the only nations who can completely work together and don't have to worry about trying to kill each other. If you can't make that work, then your going to lose! However, banning non-death non-blood spells in addition is over the top.

Re: Global War, recruiting!
 

Slave trading sounds a bit evil. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...es/biggrin.gif

The idea for evil nations is interesting, but I think it might be a bit to complicated, on top of the current game system. I'm also not sure neutrals really need a bunch of watchers.

Re: Global War, recruiting!
 

I like that addition to the evil nations. It would be more fun than not being able to communicate.

Re: Global War, recruiting!
 

Woah awesome idea, Drake49!

It makes me think I would have to drop out and be a full-time host, though. Someone would have to distribute the secret enemies.

Also, I worry that it might nerf Evil too badly, though.. maybe Good should drop back down to 4 players. It would make extra sense for me to drop out, then.

Let's consider these options, not make any concrete plans yet.

Edit: Actually, I think what would happen would be, Evil would ignore their secret enemies until Good is destroyed, then ignore Neutral until very late. These secret enemies are great for Neutral, horrible for Good. Good might should be able to keep 5 players.

I disagree with the 15 watcher idea, too. The Neutrals will be pretty stout already with 1500 gold and an iron mine, lol.

Re: Global War, recruiting!
 

The secret enemy idea is intriguing. It reminds me of those murder mystery games. Very interesting!

Re: Global War, recruiting!
 

I'm sure you could find someone to handle the evil nation enemies, if that's what we are using. It would be a shame to create this interesting of a game and then not be able to play it.

Re: Global War, recruiting!
 

Another thing, any particular rules regarding water nations?

Re: Global War, recruiting!
 

Okay, cool, yeah, we can just get someone else to do it. We can give them the master password as well. They can be sort of a co-host and monitor people to make sure they are obeying the rules.

Any volunteers for the monitor position?

If we do this secret enemy thing, does that mean that Evil is able to communicate amongst themselves with no restrictions? Or will there still be restrictions? I think if they can trade normally, they will dominate all opposition, regardless of this secret enemy stuff.

I think restrictions on communication should remain. What do other people think?

I mean, the other option is just to balance the frickin' teams.. but.. it loses some charm that way for me. I like the unstoppable Evil hoard idea.

Edit: Water nations have no special rules. Were you thinking of any in particular?

Re: Global War, recruiting!
 

I love Drake49's idea for the evil nations each having a secret foe! It's perfect to help keep them sufficiently paranoid! Edit: And yes, I agree all communications restrictions should remain as-is.

And note for my own idea, the good nations still could not deliberately generate blood slaves, for example. Only trade whatever (rare) slaves they happen to generate. But yes, I do see the point of it not being exactly good to do so...

I hate the idea of banning death and blood for everyone, though. Don't think that will pass, but if we did that, I wouldn't even be able to play MA Ermor at all.

Re: Global War, recruiting!
 

No particular rule ideas for water nations, I was just thinking of playing LE Ry'leh. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Assuming secret enemies, here is how I'd recommend communication should work:

Good <-> Good - Anything goes.

Good <-> Evil - Not allowed.

Good <-> Neutral - Both can trade anything but blood/death gems/items, and both can say anything they like as long as no future plans against players/provinces are discussed.

Evil <-> Neutral - Same as above, but can do blood/death.

Neutral <-> Neutral - Same.

Evil <-> Evil - Can't trade between themselves, and can't coordinate wars (same rules as with neutrals), and also can't make NAPs. Everything else is fair game (greetings, threats, rumors, real or fake information). Basically diplo between evils would boil down to just trying to feel out who is your real enemy, with the currency being information. I think it could be pretty fun wondering if some juicy/important info from another evil nation is legit, or simply trying to get you engaged in another war and then finish you off. No diplo, period, would still probably be an OK option too.

Re: Global War, recruiting!
 

I'm out. Not gonna work. If you let Evil communicate, Good is doomed.

An evil player must be retarded to attack any other evil nation or
a neutral nation that is not attacking their alliance. By the same
token they must come to each other's aid or let the organized good
nations kill them one by one.

As long as you allows them to say "I'm in province #X, good nation #Y is NW"
you have given them 99% of the communication needed to stomp Good. You may as
well allow trade and balance teams.

Re: Global War, recruiting!
 

Yeah, what QM said, is what I was thinking as well.

IndyPendant - you chose ME Ermor as a Neutral race, so you are perfectly allowed to use all the blood and death you want. Only Good races are disallowed their use (except for certain anti-death death spells).

Tuidjy - you probably have a point... we'd have to allow something for Good to balance it out... I suppose we could allow Death magic.

I love the secret enemy idea. But there are difficulties as to it's implementation. Tuidjy is right that evil would just forget about the secret enemies until after Good was long gone. We'd probably have to even out the teams if we add secret enemies and some limited communication.

But then we are drifting further and further...

You know... let's add the Secret Enemy (because it is just so cool), but keep the complete no communication for Evil thing. It's too important, if they are communicating even a little bit, we run the risk of them acting like a team.

Edit: and let's keep the no-death for good thing.

Re: Global War, recruiting!
 

I agree that drifting is bad. If Evil players agree to no communication
whatsoever, 8-4-2 is not unbalancing. The neutrals will have to try to balance
the two sides. Their trump is that they can take out single evil nations without
the other evil nations realizing it in time. The neutrals can also try to
help the evil nations keep the good in check.

But if you allow coordination among the evil EXCEPT by going through the
neutrals, the Evil have a cake walk.

Re: Global War, recruiting!
 

Lets keep the no death for good, and being a evil player i like the secret enemy idea a lot! It balances. I also agree that Good should not be allowed to use death or blood, or hunt for slaves.

When it comes to communication. I Would say posturing on the thread of the game should be the maximum allowed. Some RP and such would be fun. None of the "He is here, get him" kind of thing.

Re: Global War, recruiting!
 

sounds like it could almost be run like those find the vampire (assassin/werewolf whatever) forum games.

of course the numbers would be different for that.
but it'd be fun if there was a game like that;
where you don't know who's on the various sides; and have to figure it out.