Medusa Sheild is killing blind and undead, bug?
 

Is the medusa shield supposed to be killing corpse candles and undead?

Re: Medusa Sheild is killing blind and undead, bug
 

The undead are not immune to petrify. It is no bug. Only stone beings and the blind are immune.

Re: Medusa Sheild is killing blind and undead, bug
 

I agree, it's unthematic for the Aegis and Gorgon to kill blind units with petrification, based on their descriptions. (And gargoyles etc., but I think the last patch cleared that up.)

Xietor, units with the "Blind" attribute are not immune, I tested this with a Gorgon and Blindlords in 3.15. Units with both "Lost one eye" and "Lost the other eye as well" afflictions are not immune. It's possible units with the 'Blind' affliction are immune, I didn't test that.

Undead ... I could see them turning to stone, though.

Re: Medusa Sheild is killing blind and undead, bug
 

The thing is that undead are essentially blind too, they are immune to darkness and plus, undead don't even have eyes. Maybe zombies have eyes, but skeletons sure don't. Undead are animated by magic. Undead don't use their eyes even if they had them. Medusa Sheild should not effect undead. Probably shouldn't effect mindless beings either.

Re: Medusa Sheild is killing blind and undead, bug
 

Skeletons have eyes, sure. It is just that they fell into their heads when the eye sockets rotted. Now they are rattling around in there, you just have to reach in and get them.

Next week I will teach you about Bog beasts.

Re: Medusa Sheild is killing blind and undead, bug
 

I disagree that undead are blind or dont even have eyes.

Ghouls have eyes and see

Vampires have eyes and see

Lictors have eyes and see

Banshees have eyes and see.

Liches have eyes and see.

Ghosts have eyes (ethereal eyes) and see

Banes, banelords and wights have eyes and see

Zombies have eyes and see.

Skeletons dont have eyes, but see.

So that is a total of one single undead that do not have eyes, the rest of them do. Plus the one that do not have them, still see.

Undeads dont have a Daredevil kind of radar, they see. They dont use a sight organ in the sense that alive humans do, but Air Elementals dont use a sight organ int he sense that alive humans do, and still see. Probably a Naiad or Faerie Queen or Demon dont follow regular human Biology as well, yet they see. They still need a Line of Sight to target you, they still can not notice you if you are behind a wall.

Re: Medusa Sheild is killing blind and undead, bug
 

Possibly the case is that the Petrification effect is just listed, while blind beings are only immune to blindness/eye loss. I don't think it can be changed outside of mayor code reworking... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/frown.gif As for undead - skeletons should probably get "blind" feature, as are probably those whose description says they are using some kind of "lifesense" instead of normal vision. And they surely can be petrified - except those ethereal who probably have nothing that can be turned to stone! I don't know whether such change is planned & how it looks from balance point of view (but it also would require re-coding)...

Re: Medusa Sheild is killing blind and undead, bug
 

There is a thread on this topic already, and it was explained by jk. The Stone Sword was fixed as a result of the discussion in the other thread, and stone beings are no longer killed by it. Stone being tag is hidden. The gargoyle definitely has the stone being tag though.

Undead dying to petrification is wad.

Re: Medusa Sheild is killing blind and undead, bug
 

I don't agree with petrification killing units with the #blind tag. Undead is fine, though one would think skeletal undead should have the blind tag anyway, since they have no eyes.

Re: Medusa Sheild is killing blind and undead, bug
 

Well, it should depend on the source.

Medusa shield and the Gorgon work by sight, but the Stone sword is a contact thing, right? So that should affect the blind.

Re: Medusa Sheild is killing blind and undead, bug
 

And the spell, that should be treated like the Stone Sword and work normally, as far as blind units are concerned.

Re: Medusa Sheild is killing blind and undead, bug
 

Ghosts can't be turned to stone. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...es/biggrin.gif Some undead like ghouls use eye organs. However, zombies aren't alive in any way. A zomnie's eyes aren't alive. Undead like skeletons and zombies are completely animated by magic. They don't use eyes in any way.

I think we need to give blindness tag to a lot of undead as a way to solve this problem. Oh, but currently Medusa Shield kills blind units. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...ies/tongue.gif

Re: Medusa Sheild is killing blind and undead, bug
 

Ghosts can't be turned to stone. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...es/biggrin.gif Some undead like ghouls use eye organs. However, zombies aren't alive in any way. A zombie's eyes aren't alive. Undead like skeletons and zombies are completely animated by magic. They don't use eyes in any way.

I think we need to give blindness tag to a lot of undead as a way to solve this problem. Oh, but currently Medusa Shield kills blind units. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...ies/tongue.gif

Re: Medusa Sheild is killing blind and undead, bug
 

Where are you guys getting this information? Grave's Anatomy? Har Har Har.

Re: Medusa Sheild is killing blind and undead, bug
 

I do not think undead should be immune to petrify. They are overpowered as is. So for balance they need to remain vulnerable to it.

And lest you forget, the 3 medusas were as powerful as gods.
Think of their ability to turn things to stone as magical. Since undead are not already stone-they are susceptible to be turned into stone.

Re: Medusa Sheild is killing blind and undead, bug
 

Xietor, I can agree with that. However, it doesn't make sense that ethereal beings can be turned to stone.

Ghosts have no substance to turn to stone.

Have you ever played Dominions? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

Re: Medusa Sheild is killing blind and undead, bug
 

They have substance, it's just ethereal. "Ethereal" is not "nonexistent." Remember, you can chop up a ghost with swords, it's just harder to do so. Petrification is a magical event, not a physical event.

There is a different tag out there that denotes "really really has no substance"; it is the "Truly Etheral" trait possessed by some Doom Horrors. It provides 75% protection against non-astral magic... presumably this would block Medusa petrification in the same way as it does the spell.

Re: Medusa Sheild is killing blind and undead, bug
 

This thread is nerdtastic. It gets my stamp of approval.

Re: Medusa Sheild is killing blind and undead, bug
 

All matter exists in 3 states-solid, liquid, or gas.

Think of petrification as a 2 step process. First, matter that exists in a form other than a solid state is converted
into a solid state.

Then the composition of the matter in the solid state-if not already stone-is changed to stone.

Re: Medusa Sheild is killing blind and undead, bug
 

Ooh! Ooh! Complex-matter-PhD-boy can't resist! There's more than just those three - gels, for instance (e.g. jelly/jello). And things which appear solid but slowly flow, e.g. glass (well, glass that we see every day is pretty close to solid, but some glasses flow more quickly). And cornflour in water!

I think my points are pretty much irrelevant to Xietor's post though. And of course, most things are pretty much solid, liquid or gas. Just thought I'd add to the geekiness of the thread.

Re: Medusa Sheild is killing blind and undead, bug
 

It seems turning to stone should work on some undead such as ghouls and vampires and other undead have an immunity for turning to stone, unfortunately since there's a mix the developers would need to create a new type of undead tag for a permanent fix. It's very unlikely JK or KO will examine all undead and provide some with a new extra undead tag.

This is one of those scenarios like the spell 'maggots' which targets the undead... this should only work on some undead and not work on ghosts or spirits.

Re: Medusa Sheild is killing blind and undead, bug
 

Ghosts don't turn to stone, you know. They turn into glow-in-the-dark-jello. It is not as hard as stone, but it tastes good. Many petrified/jellyfied ghosts have found themselves eaten by young menacing humans with lots of make-up and dark robes.

Re: Medusa Sheild is killing blind and undead, bug
 

It's a magic spell... the maggots that come into being have been created through magic and thus are magical themselves and can hurt and devour magical beings. Even if part or all of their victims' makeup is ethereal, I don't see how they can have an immunity to it. It says right in the description that ethereal undead without bodies have a good chance to resist, and that's more than enough already.

Re: Medusa Sheild is killing blind and undead, bug
 

I thought Maggots specifically had a hard time affecting ethereal undead (like mundane weapons). At least, it says so in the description.

Is that not the case?

Re: Medusa Sheild is killing blind and undead, bug
 

That's what I just said.

Re: Medusa Sheild is killing blind and undead, bug
 

Allow me to carry this to a level of geekiness that could possibly allow me to ascend to geek godhood.

So our dilemma here is how can petrification possibly impact the animated dead and the visually impaired?

Perhaps, the petrification wavelength need only touch the retina - whether the retina itself works is irrelevant. This avoids the sticky issue of how the undead see, which I am guessing looks something like the Predator.

http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...ies/tongue.gif

Re: Medusa Sheild is killing blind and undead, bug
 

Since we are getting all technical and letting our true nerdlyness show I would like to correct this statement as I often see/hear people use "Medusa" when they should be using "Gorgon", it is a very common mistake so I mean no disrespect to you personally Xietor.

The species, if you wish to call it that, is Gorgon. Stheno, Euryale, and Medusa were the names of the Gorgon sisters of Greek Mythology.

As for the topic, I think from a technical standpoint all mindless beings would be immune to the effects of the Medusa Shield and Gorgon petrification because the reason people would be turned to stone when they looked at a Gorgon was because they were so hideously ugly. Mindless beings have no mind to comprehend ugliness, they are just constructs being controlled by their master. It would be like saying a robot or a car being driven by a person could be turned to stone. Now the person driving the car could be if they weren't careful, but it's not going to stop the car.

From a game play perspective it could be possible to say that all mindless being are "bind" because their mind, or lack there of, does not process what the eyes are seeing so even if they have eye balls it doesn't mean they work, like people who are blind from birth they still have eye balls... usually.

I don't know how this would affect game balance though.

Re: Medusa Sheild is killing blind and undead, bug
 

On a side note... within DOM_3 mindless beings such as the vine ogres can receive the feeblemind affliction which is equivalent to a unit without eyes receiving the 'lost an eye' affliction.

Re: Medusa Sheild is killing blind and undead, bug
 

True, to me those sounds more like a bug/over sight then by design. Depending on how the game is coded it could be difficult to fix and could require some serious refactoring which is always problematic.

The same is true for the topic, although it more comes down to defining what actually causes the petrification. Is it a kind of ray blast from the Gorgon/Aegis that hits a target and turns them to stone like in God of War? Or is it merely the target seeing the hideous visage of the Gorgon/Aegis that causes them to turn them to stone?

There is a slight difference in the descriptions for the Gorgon and the Aegis as far as how they work exactly.

The description for the petrification effect of the Gorgon states "This unit is so hideous that onlookers will be petrified if they attack the beast". Implying that only the target must see the Gorgon, the Gorgon does not necessarily have to see the target.

The description of the Aegis says "The image is so vivid that anyone who meets the mad gaze of the painted eyes". I'm assuming this would mean eye contact, the target eyes must meet the eyes of the Aegis.

So according to the descriptions, it would seem that the latter is the more likely of scenarios as to how the petrification is suppose to work. For simplicity sake we could say that the target would need to make eye contact with the Gorgon, just like with the Aegis. But in both cases the targets eyes must meet the eyes of the Gorgon/Aegis and it is the hideous and horrific visage of the Gorgan/Aegis that causes the petrification. Therefore, blind units should not be effected and animated mindless constructs that are incapable of comprehending ugliness or horror would not be effected.

I have no qualms about how it works currently, after all it can always be chalked up to "It's Magic", this is only my interpretation given the information that is provided. If it is working as intended then perhaps the definitions need to be altered or clarified.

Re: Medusa Sheild is killing blind and undead, bug
 

Yes, I agree that blind and mindless units should be immune from petrification. It should not imbalance mindless units that much since most SC's are not mindless.

Re: Medusa Sheild is killing blind and undead, bug
 

To me it sounds like the Aegis has a gaze attack and is able to look at both blind and mindless.

On the other hand the Gorgon should not turn mindless or blind to stone.

Re: Medusa Sheild is killing blind and undead, bug
 

Yes, maybe the Stone Sword is on contact and not vision based. The spell Petrify might also not be vision based so perhaps these two are exceptions to the mindless/blind immunity. The Aegis still seems like you need to see it before petrification occurs.

Hmmm this thread contains high levels of nerdiness. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Re: Medusa Sheild is killing blind and undead, bug
 

Its MAGIC.

Re: Medusa Sheild is killing blind and undead, bug
 

Folket:
I think that the Aegis and Gorgon would work the same. Both are based on the idea that they are so hideous that the target gets turned to stone. The only difference is that the "unknown maker painted an extremely vivid image of the Medusa" on the Aegis. In Greek Mythology the Aegis, a breast plate, has the actual head of Medusa attached to it and even though the head is dead and inanimate people who see it will still be turned to stone because of it's grotesque appearance.

In Dominions they have taken that idea but made it into a shield and the image is painted on rather then having the physical head attached possibly to avoid the need for blood magic in creating it? *shrug*.

The main factor is that the target has to see the Gorgon/Aegis in order for it to affect them. The Gorgons could not just turn people to stone at will, the people had to look upon them. This allowed Perseus to slay Medusa by only looking at her reflection in his shield.

Reay:
I agree the Stone Sword and the Petrify spell would still affect mindless/blind units because they don't require the target to see the sword or the spell being cast at them for it to work.

sum1lost:
"It's Magic" is a viable option especially if changing how the Gorgon/Aegis petrification works would offset game balance in which case the descriptions for the Gorgon and Aegis should be clarified and possibly made in to an active action rather then a passive affect like the the Illithid Mind Blast ability.

Re: Medusa Sheild is killing blind and undead, bug
 

If its solely based on vision, mindless beings don't care what they are looking at.

Re: Medusa Sheild is killing blind and undead, bug
 

Quite a few undead units should be made blind because they don't have eyes. I do not think the are over powered and even if they were. The game should be as accurate as possibly. We can invant counters later. (I do use undead much at all)