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Blast from the Past, Return of the Underkings
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<font color="blue">(Version 1.00 is now available for download)</font> Hello everyone. Two months ago or so, due to the mention of DwarfFortress and it's graphic pack (which for me, made it playable instead of painful), I've been having quite some fun, and have grown somewhat enamored of the crazy and short people. This of course made me want to play with Dwarves in Dom3, but I found I was unable (Yes, I'm familiar with the late-era mod nation of Pirate Dwarves, and while I find that quite creative, it just doesn't have the right feel). I recalled that Zepath made a dwarf nation mod back in the Dom2 days, so I searched for it, downloaded it, tried it, and was unable to start it. I then set myself to modifying it to work in Dom3. With some tweaking I eventually got it to work, and then played a small game. While back in Dom2 I found the mod quite exciting, it had not aged particularly well, and was asking for some modern updates with the new modding capabilities. For a while I considered starting from scratch, but then decided not to, when there was already an excellent framework, and many good sprites already made. I looked around for Zepath on the forum to ask him for permission, but he hasn't been on the forums for a while. I have decided to utilize his work, without his blessing, but give him due credit. Here starts a sort of mod-making AAR/Blog for those of you who may be interested. For those of you who aren't, skip down to the asterisks. I kept track of all the changes I made from the get go to make it easier to both reverse changes that may have unexpected consequences, and to make it easier to ask questions or direct criticism at me. So then I began. My first consideration was era. To fit into the framework of coming before the late-era Dwarves, and the medium and heavy infantry which are the bulwark of the troops (and should stand out as heavier than the other nations of the era), it made the most sense to make it mid-era. I then changed the basic dwarf stats, gave them darkvision, poison resistance, a higher cost, etc. This was a process that continued for several weeks. Dwarves couldn't just be short humans, they had to have a very different racial stat set. I hit the books (from my own DND collection) and various online sources to get the research. After perusing several forums, I realized that the Zepath mod was somewhat influenced by the Warhammer Dwarven nation. I'm not quite familiar with Warhammer, but I decided to distinguish it from those roots. I've included some significant fan-service for DND players, DwarfFortress players, and those fine people who enjoy Tolkien. I found attempts at variety difficult, since most Dwarf culture and ideas are pretty cohesive and similar to the early Tolkienesque version which gave rise to much of the fantasy of the 20th century. On the question of Dwarf size, whether to be 1 or 2, I leaned more for 2, as their bulk and stockiness and choice of weapons could easily equate into standard medium sized formations. As well as increase their resistance to trampling slightly, which befits Dwarves. However, as the sprites were already size 1, it would look very strange, and resizing everything to be several pixels larger ruined the point of not starting from scratch. Dwarves should be tough, strong, and possess good endurance. Able to move fast for their size, and carry heavy loads long distances without complaint. They should be stubborn and courageous and therefore hard to break in battle, and thus the high morale. They have some slight protection due to their thicker skin and broad, dense bones. Their natural skill combined with their lengthy training and lifespan equates into a good attack rating, but their lack of flexibility and agility mean they have a poor defense. They are also more resistant to magic and poison, and possess good darkvision. They cost 50% more than an average human, sometimes much more, and should be hard to mass. Anyway, I settled upon a Dwarf base, here: Base Dwarf ap 11 mapmove 2 prot 2 hp 12 size 1 str 11 enc 2 att 11 def 9 prec 9 mr 11 mor 12 gcost 15 rcost 3 darkvision 75 poisonres 25 mountainsurvival special: dwarves are resistant to losing mapmove from either heavy armor or militia status Then settled upon a militia status modifier: Militia -30% to gcost (usually 3, but in this case rounded down to 4) +1 to enc -2 to att -2 to def -2 to mor -1 to mapmove (offset by dwarf special ability) I wanted to include some way of lowering the effect of encumbrance on movement on a battlefield, but found there really wasn't any way to do that without approximating it with completely new low encumbrance armors (which would somehow not be as fatiguing) or giving them more action points, which would then be all over the place depending on how the dwarves would be equipped. I gave them a premium to the resourcecost on their base, as the size 1 resource cost was too low, and it offset it somewhat, without the extreme of the resourcesize 2 with the heavy equipment. It also reflects higher Dwarven quality and durability of the equipment (which isn't really reflected in terms of armor stats, and is there simply for flavor and balance). I thought for a while about fireres 25 and coldres 25, as it could be argued that Dwarves are slightly resistant to the elements, but I couldn't really justify it in terms of the price increase, necessity for flavor, or that it was an especially interesting or honest interpretation of Dwarven abilities, and doing something like a 10% resistance was just too much fluff (that would likely not save any Dwarven lives, and probably do weird things to spells like Fire resistance or Army of Gold). After these changes, I started restructuring the costs, as all the Dom2 prices were far too low, especially on the paladins. These merited special attention, as the two sacred Paladins were almost mirror image of each other in terms of stats and equipment, though one was clearly, if only slightly, better. With some stat boosts, special abilities, and a magic weapon, they were a bit more dissimilar, and each had a group of enemies it would be good against. I still wasn't completely satisfied so I focused on the paladin aspect as a form of limited personal magic, and gave them an extra magic short range spell-like ability (weapon) which balances them with each other, and drove the unit cost even higher. This was perfectly fine with me, Dwarven paladins should be quite rare and extraordinary, certainly more so than Jaguar Warriors or Palankashas, and a bless strategy should be one of many feasible options, not the only one. Then I added a weaker version of the Rune Priest, at which point the magepriests and paladins were made capital-only as it makes sense they would only be present in numbers at the capital, and makes Underheim quite capital-centric and low magic. Brewmasters are something I consider a small stroke of genius, as they add a lot of flavor to the otherwise grey, warlike, and dour Dwarves. Neither scout, assassin, leader, thug, mage, or priest, they count as a new commander type, utility. Their various abilities and jack of all trades nature should fill in the gaps of at least several strategies, and bring the atmosphere of Underheim away from just war, war, and more war 24/7. I considered the various neat cavalry ideas that exist for Dwarves; Pony, Boar, Bear, Mountain Ram, Dire Wolf, Giant Eagle, Gryphon, Hippogryph, Pegasi, Cave Drake, Battlewagon, Mechanical Horse, Pony Golem, even a Winged Tiger(!). It seems that out of the various mounts that exist in fantasy, someone somewhere will put a Dwarf on it. I came to the conclusion of zero Dwarven cavalry, for two reasons. One is balance, Dwarves possess good light, medium, and heavy infantry, as well as good ranged units (in the form of crossbowmen), the biggest hindrance of course, is the lack of troop mobility, both tactically and strategically. Giving Underheim a cavalry unit not only takes away one of it's major weaknesses but also lowers the effectiveness of certain counters against it (massed crossbows, massed evocations, even size 3 and 4 tramplers). The second reason is one of flavor and consistency, the Dwarves here are size 1 and thus quite small, furthermore they have short stubby legs, and should have a hell of a time successfully riding anything that they're not bolted onto or otherwise attached. Lances also seem like not a very Dwarven weapon. I considered for a while new modding unit abilites, halt sacred, and the other anti-sacred tricks Ulm recently acquired. However tempting, the last thing that Underheim needed was to be more similar to Ulm. So I stayed completely away from that. This was also part of the consideration to get rid of the Halberd on one of the Paladins. In that vein, since the two main magepriests were kind of similar to ME Ulm, I thought of expanding their magical variety somewhat. Taking note of the Dom3 Dwarf smiths who possess A, F, E, D randoms, I figured that was as good a selection as any and gave them a small chance of that. I toyed for a while with the idea of Dwarven Loremasters, Engineers, and Skalds (Bards), but felt Rune Priests should be sufficient as there too much overlap, and already too many commanders. I also didn't want to give them any more paths. It did give me the idea of adding a researchbonus on the Mages, and increasing their price, fitting in with the idea of rare and expensive Dwarven mages. Adding a dwarven version (which is slightly cheaper and the constructs are slightly better) of mechanical men, seemed a natural step for the prideful dwarves. I threw in a healing spell as I wanted the Dwarven Clerics to be involved in the actual fighting of battles, without giving them H3, and thus smite. I added a second siege engine, 'Runic War Machine' (a massive catapult), which is essentially done, but I was unsatisfied with the sprites, and then removed it. I was displeased with the two options of either having several dwarves load, aim, and fire the device, and how that would interact (spritewise and statwise) with attacking the siege engine, or the other option of it creating ammo out of thin air, aiming, and firing magically (only commanded by a mage), which is a cop-out utilized by many fantasy games. <font color="blue"> ^ After further consideration, the problems with the sprites is when there is more than one machine. Due to the size, they overlap, which makes them look very 2d, and therefore completely wrong. The solution, of course, is to make there be only one (a unique summon). This allows there to be more depth and flavor to the nation, without seeing the strangeness that is a dozen giant magical catapults running around. It also allows me to make it truly devastating in power, and quite high in cost. As for whether to have it truly mechanical, or truly magical, I figured a hybrid system just might work (in terms of balance, atmosphere, and appearance). Where it's essentially a magical catapult that makes ammo and fires on it's own, but it needs the guidance of an operator who directs where the catapult is to fire, who is quite vulnerable and killable, and in such an event makes the machine grind to a halt. This seems reasonable enough, but will need further testing. </font> I was considering for a while adding an immobile guard unit, which is significantly cheaper to make up for it, and increase the defensive nature of Underheim, but as there was already a stoneguard and a gateguard, it felt awkward and far too repetitive. This was a major hurdle timewise, and was only resolved when I restructered both the stoneguard and gateguard (as I was already unsatisfied with both units) and changed names and descriptions. Furthermore I got rid of several other redundancies and cut down on troop numbers which I felt didn't really add anything. The Axe/Plate Dwarf was too similar to the Hammer/Plate Dwarf, and the Battleaxe Clansdwarf was essentially a weaker version of the Woad Raider. (Adding is easy, trimming is hard, but the latter gives a nation a good feel and flow.) After the immobile templeguard was made, I considered for a while giving Rune Priests the ability to summon allies, and while I don't think it would be too overpowering, as they're immobile, and Rune Priests are capital only and have much more important things to do, and it fits well in terms of how the units interact thematically, I so far am somewhat hesitant (of autosummons, or in this case makemonsters) due to the Kobold Warchief imbalance back in Urdheim. Right now I'll add it, but this is an on the fence situation that could use outside input. I also considered adding an ally race to the Dwarves, kind of like how early Agartha gets Troglodytes, for broad variety. However, Dwarves are unlikely to rely significantly on outsiders, and it's hard to imagine alternate species which could be found in significant quantities in Dwarven armies. This did however lead to both the Raven hero, who manages to be quite useful, as well as the Raven Spies spell. They will likely only come up intermittently in terms of multiple games, but their rareness works quite well, in terms of balance and atmosphere, in my opinion. <font color="blue"> ^I thought about fortresses for a while. While it could be argued that Underheim could use Cave Cities, Castles, and Forts, as they possess good darkvision (and so darkness is mostly helpful), and to varying degrees live underground, I felt that the Dwarves who rule on the surface, war on the surface, farm on the surface, should build and live on the surface. They should be for the most part surface dwarves. Certainly much more so than Agarthans. It also means spells like earthquake aren't totally immersion breaking when cast in fortress battles. ^I recently gave Underheim a fortress making spell. I was throwing the idea around for a month now, but decided to see how it would work. It's certainly much cheaper (at 25 earth gems) than all the other fortress making spells, but it's also significantly handicapped over them. It's not a ritual that targets other provinces, but has to be cast in the province where the spell is to occur. Thus building a lab first then having the right caster there to cast it, should prevent any strange abusive notions for it late game, while creating a few more strategic options for the Underheim player. UPDATE: Despite it seeming promising at the outset, I was unable to get the province limitation set up properly, so the fortress spell works on any province. The cost is now 50 gems. We'll see if that's too cheap. </font> The most controversial and essentially final step was the idea of the Eternal Guardian, a powerful construct which is also a lategame summon, turned into a unique starting hero. This is more than offset by making it weaker than the summons, immobile, possessing an upkeep, and most importantly, removing the starting army. I think it works pretty well on a lot of levels, especially balancing down Underheim and expanding the story and background, and I'm pretty interested in everyone's thoughts on this. There's plenty of other stuff I changed or added, but that doesn't require too much explanation, and is listed in the changelog. ****** Anyway, thanks to Zepath, for the sprites, the mod, and the structure. I wouldn't have been able to do it without him. Seriously, I wouldn't have bothered doing this from scratch as the sprites are particularly painful to work with when talking about size 1 creatures (16 pixels!), or even extra short size 2. Here is the detailed nation info: Era: Middle #descr "Hidden in the rough face of great cliffs and disguised as bare rock are the gates into the earth carved by an ancient race. Beneath the great mountain ranges reside the proud and stout dwarves, a race of short, stocky beings hewn from rock during the making of the world. They have a great love of things made and cherish a rich tradition of construction and engineering. Dwarves are potent warriors as well, being much tougher than humans and often just as cunning. In these days the dwarven clans have come together under the rulership of a noble council of lords, the Underkings. The council serves the will of a god who has come to place dwarvenkind in its rightful spot, at the pinnacle of the world." #summary "* Race: Dwarves - small, tough humanoids * Military: Dwarven medium and heavy infantry, holy paladins, ballistas and constructs * Magic: Fire and Earth with Strong Forging, and a small chance of Air, Death * Priests: Moderate" #brief "The realm within the mountains is ruled by a council of hereditary monarchs, the Underkings. From their halls deep within the caverns of the earth, dwarves march for war clad in gleaming plate mail and wielding keen-edged axes. The Underkings bring heavy infantry and potent siege weapons to bear on the battlefield." Numbers used in mod: -- Weapon <font color="blue">780-799</font> -- Armor 397-399 -- Units <font color="blue">2800-2845</font> -- Sites 850-851 -- Nation 76 -- <font color="blue">Nametype 149 </font> Fortresses: Capital: -- Mountain City Default: -- Fortress Farm: -- Castle Mountain: -- Mountain City Swamp: -- Swamp Fort Forest: -- Forest Fortress Province Defense: Commander at def 1: Dwarf Chief Units at def 1+: 1x Dwarf Militia, 1x Dwarf Hurler Commander at def 20: Rune Acolyte Units at def 20+: 1.5x Dwarf Crossbowman, 0.2x Bolt Thrower Stats listed earlier Strengths: Powerful and tough melee units and sacreds, Excellent morale, Strong forge and construction bonuses, Multiple sacred types, Potent National Spells, Supply rarely a problem, Small production bonus, Castledefense is common, Excellent heroes, Eternal Guardian starting hero Weaknesses: No cheap troops, Best troops hard to mass, Limited tactical and strategic mobility, Lack of cavalry, Vulnerable to area effects and trampling, Most mages and sacreds are expensive and capital only, Magic is limited in both strength and variety, No typical starting army, No Cheap Forts Underheim Information and Idiosyncracies: 1- Dwarves small size easily translates into melee superiority as well as being harder to hit with most ranged weapon fire, but tramplers and highly precise area effect spells will be devastating. 2- Dwarves are highly resistant to encumbrance effects on their mapmove, this is reflected in several dwarven units retaining 2 mapmove, despite single digit action points, which lends itself well to the Tolkienesque dwarven endurance in forcemarches. 3- Dwarves are highly capital-centered, with both their sacred units, and the two major mage-priests being capital only, to maintain both the slow spread of dwarven culture atmosphere, and the importance of the dwarven central city, where everything else is but an outpost. 4- With two different powerful and expensive capital sacreds, this leads to broader flexibility in dealing with some nations. 5- Dwarven Clerics can heal Dwarves mid battle. This leads to more Dwarves surviving through the battle, but possessing more battlescars and afflictions, which I feel is very much in character and gives atmosphere to the nation. 6- While Dwarves could realistically use arbalests, dwarven crossbows tend to be too weak to penetrate most dwarven shields and armor, and the Bolt Throwers are very precise, and so minimize friendly fire and show the value of Dwarven life. 7- While the nation has one less gem in it's capital, it has the valuable Forge of the Ancients, and makes Underheim the premier forging nation, as befits the Dwarves. This also makes Underheim more capital-centric. Furthermore, all other construction spells are affected, and so several constructs will be more attractive for Underheim. 8- The Brewmaster is a unit that fills in a variety of roles. Useful to slowly heal dwarven troops, to supply armies or prevent starvation inside besieged forts, to cast a useful spell in battle, or to act as a counter-spy by reducing unrest caused by spies pervading the dwarven realm. This can also allow the increasing of taxes without patrolling. 9- Several Dwarven commanders slightly lower unrest (Captains, Lords, and Underkings), reducing the effect of unrest increasing events, spells, and spies, as well as taming captured provinces quicker. This makes the Dwarven atmosphere one of Order and calm. 10- Though possessing more expensive and weaker mages than most other mid-era nations, with a researchbonus they tend to maintain a good pace in terms of research. Furthermore, they possess a good variety of Dwarven only spells which are reasonably potent and makes them a type of magic specialists, and should provide a unique playing style. However, Dwarven mages will never be around in sufficient quantities, and their loss will be especially painful. 11- Dwarven Pathfinders are sailors. Though more expensive, this makes them more flexible and mobile as an explorer than most scouts. 12- Rune Priests can call upon sacred Templeguards to reinforce certain locations, even if under siege. Even after considering the gem cost, the low upkeep and high morale of these immobile fort defenders should make them an attractive option, and gives Underheim a strong defense. 13- Dwarven forts are slow to build, and are built for defensibility, not speed. With several units possessing castledefense abilities, and above average province defense, Underheim tends to keep territory once it acquires it. <font color="blue">^Midgame, this is improved with Rune Priests able to summon a fort into existence in any province. </font> 14- Conversely, there are several units with significant siegebonuses, and forts, walls or other constructs will rarely stand to a Dwarven army. 15- Dwarves start with the Eternal Guardian instead of a typical starting force. The Guardian is relatively powerful, but requires some upkeep, has no mapmove, and will die if it leaves the capital (through magical means). This slows down Dwarven expansion significantly as Mage recruitment is moved back a turn with the requirement of another mobile leader or sending a mage out early and typically translates into a weaker early game (with a lucky early turn mercenary grab only partially alleviating this). This does, however makes them somewhat resistant to rushing, as the capital should be harder to take. 16- Dwarven heroes are quite good and should stand out, making a misfortune scale rather undesirable even with the Order synergy. With the King of Ravens set up to scry and spy, the Geomancer to throw earthquakes and other battlefield spells, and the Underkings to lead and rally large conventional forces, each is a major boon to the luck player, though the Underkings are somewhat more common than the other heroes. 17- Late game options, which are usually weak for both nations of limited magical variety as well as Earth and Fire nations, are unusually robust for Underheim, with the important 'Hearthstrike' and 'Forge Battlemaster' allowing access to use a second gem type for an assassination spell, and a strong late-game summon. 18- Underheim has a broad variety in terms of Pretender choices. It interestingly is suited best to a strong earth bless over any other, which benefits their mages and paladins significantly, and is what the Stone King pretender is set up to do. However, the paladins are too slow and difficult to mass, and so cannot be the only troop choice. Due to it's limited magic variety, Underheim would also significantly benefit from a rainbow mage. Since it also has an unusually slow start, it could definitely use an awake combat pretender. Each of these path makes sense. I'll be including a spell-list, unit-list, and complete changelog, as well as a screenshot of the various units in the second post. |
Re: Blast from the Past, Return of the Underkings
[Reserved for excess.]
Oh, and the mod is essentially finished. Sprites are done, descriptions are done, spells are done, etc. Only thing left is to tweak the costs, balancing, and beta-testing. Should be ready for mass-consumption in 1-2 weeks. Current Changelog (though it may be missing a few things): Bugfixes include: Added missing soundfx to weapons Fixed spelling errors Fixed missing holy tag Changes include: Removed "The Cornerstone" as a starting magic site (This spread order and gave astral!) Removed "The Steel Ovens" as a starting magic site Added "Ancient Forge" as a starting magic site Added "Halls of the Underkings" as a starting magic site Added "Helmsfire Order House" as a starting magic site Rune Paladin is now capital only Rune Paladin now uses a magical Greataxe instead of a halberd Runepriest is now capital only Runepriest is now called Rune Priest Rune Priest now has 30% chance of higher magic Rune Priest now has researchbonus 2 Helmsfire Paladin is now capital only Helmsfire Keeper is now capital only Helmsfire Keeper now has 30% chance of higher magic Helmsfire Keeper now has researchbonus 1 All Dwarves now have darkvision 75% All Dwarves now have mountainsurvival All Dwarves now have poisonres 25% All Dwarves now have maxage 250 All Dwarves stats tweaked All Dwarves descriptions tweaked All Dwarves now cost more Paladin Orders now are more varied, powerful, and expensive Stone King now blind Stone King lifedrain upgraded Woad Raider berserker from 10 to 4 Woad Raider now has swampsurvival Woad Raider now has forestsurvival Woad Raider now has a Throwing Axe Stoneguard now has castledef 1 Stoneguard now known as Highborn Gateguard now has castledef 2 Gateguard now known as Royal Guard Stone Chief now has castledef 3 Stone Chief now known as Dwarf Captain Dwarf Lord now has castledef 5 Dwarf Lord now has standard 10 Dwarf Miner siegebonus from 10 to 6 Underking now has standard 20 Underking now has castledef 10 Underking is now a multihero Underking now casts Fanaticism Underking now domsummon20 Royal Guards Dwarf Clansman now called Clansdwarf Dwarf Scout now called Dwarf Pathfinder Dwarf Pathfinder description expanded Dwarf Pathfinder is now a sailor Dwarf Pathfinder now has a Throwing Axe Bolt Thrower now has siegebonus 3 Bolt Thrower now has castledef 3 Bolt Thrower more like Castle Ballista Bolt Thrower hits now scare troops in the same square Bolt Thrower operator now carries tower shield Bolt Thrower now has secondshape / unmanned version Added castleprod 25 Province Defence now uses less Dwarf Militia Province Defence now has Dwarf Hurlers Province Defense now has a few Bolt Throwers Province Defense now has Rune Acolyte Commander Castletype capital is now Mountain City Castletype default is now Fortress Castletype farmland is now Castle Castletype mountain is now Mountain City Castletype swamp is now Swamp Fort Castletype forest is now Forest Fortress Temple is now #7 Clansdwarf (Battleaxe variant) no longer recruitable Highborn (Axe variant) no longer recruitable <font color="blue">Expanded namelist </font> Completely New: Weapon - Dwarven Throwing Axe Weapon - Dwarven Crossbow Weapon - Dwarven Pickaxe Weapon - Dwarven Maul Weapon - Runed Greataxe Weapon - Helmsfire Greataxe Weapon - Brand of Earth Weapon - Brand of Fire Weapon - Massive Mace Armor - Dashing Hat Spell - Hearthstrike Spell - Earthfriend Spell - Raven Spies Spell - Runes of Abjuration Spell - Mechanical Dwarves Spell - Conjure Stormhammers Spell - Prayer of Restoration Spell - Touch of the Enduring Earth Spell - Requiem of Final Peace Spell - Battlecry of the Underkings Spell - Assign Templeguard Spell - Enervation Spell - Call Battlerager Spell - Forge Battlemaster Spell - Cold Earth's Embrace Spell - Discover Dwarf Fortress Spell - Awaken the Fearless Spirit Spell - Unleash Doombringer Unit - Unmanned Bolt Thrower Unit - Templeguard Unit Summon - Mechanical Dwarf Unit Summon - Animated Stormhammer Commander - Rune Acolyte Commander - Brewmaster (For the Dwarf Fortress Fans) http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif Commander Summon - Battlerager (For DND fans) Commander Summon - Battlemaster Unique Summon - Doombringer Starting Hero - Eternal Guardian Hero - King of the Ravens (A1 mage, spy, gemprod 1 air, flyer) (For Tolkien fans) Hero - Geomancer (E3 mage, gemprod 1 earth, always has a lesser earth elemental in battle) Pretender - Loremaster (Hybrid Sage class pretender) Pretender - Son of Mimir (Titan class pretender) |
Re: Blast from the Past, Return of the Underkings
Sounds great Saulot! AFAIK, Zepath has stated before that anyone can use his mods for their own purposes due to the fact that he tends to come and go for long periods of time, so I don't think he'll be upset about your plans.
Greatly enjoyed the write up of your thinking process in making this mod, though I am a bit upset there won't be any dwarf bear cavalry. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/frown.gif But your argument against cavalry is sound so I'll deal with it http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/laugh.gif But 1-2 weeks?! Ugh, I need my dwarf fix now! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif |
Re: Blast from the Past, Return of the Underkings
Good call on teh no cavalry, but dwarves are not so small that it justifies size 1. I figure their shoulders are about 1.5 as broad as humans so it just won't fit.
Personally I'd be a greatly for having recruitable battle golems |
Re: Blast from the Past, Return of the Underkings
Saulot said he'd have preferred size 2 dwarves, but the sprites were all size 1...
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Re: Blast from the Past, Return of the Underkings
@BandarLover:
That's good to hear about Zepath. I'm glad to hear about the write-up, otherwise all that typing would have been for no reason, heh. Yeah, the cavalry would be nice just for the coolness factor. Unfortunately, if I just threw in everything that was cool, it would be kind of like... throwing in 20 of your favorite types of food into one pot. Not exactly edible. 1-2 weeks is not too bad. I could have started this thread much earlier. Patience is after all, a dwarven virtue. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif @Aezeal: Yeah... like Endo said I agree. But spritework is quite time-consuming. Smallscale spritework is even more difficult. My typical method of starting with a bigger picture, and then scaling down (such as scaling x3, so 9 pixels turn into one, and a palette of 5 colors, plus black and white, turn into a palette of a broad spectrum of colors and shades), doesn't work well when the downscale end result is tiny (15-30 pixels tall). What is a relatively easy method to get great results turns into something which turns into blurry blobs. I found this out the hard way when working on kobolds. As a result the kobolds were made quite tall. (Though his wide color pallete would seem to indicate otherwise, I believe it's some mask or blur feature to blend the colors a tiny bit.) Based on the edges, shapes, and outlines, Zepath seems to do it at-scale one pixel at a time, probably zooming out and in to see how changing the color of one pixel looks different overall. This is most likely incredibly time-consuming. So, while I'm not opposed to doing sprites from scratch... especially considering Zepath's organized method is one I could learn from (as in how he has several dwarf bases, plus armor overlays, shield overlays, weapon overlays), it would take up a lot of time, and that's time I wouldn't be spending working on several other mods I want to get to. Anyway, just to give you a comparison, the Zepath Dwarves are around 20 pixels tall and 16 pixels wide (with weapon and shield). Typical humans are 32 pixels high and Hoburgs are I believe 16. If I was going to do it from scratch, I'd probably make them 26 pixels tall and 24 pixels wide. |
Re: Blast from the Past, Return of the Underkings
I am excited. I look forward to this release. I like the idea of size 1 dwarfs. Fits with the dominions world and does not break drastically from D&D.
By the way, what do you mean Dwarven Fortress is unplayable in its standard ASCII version? Its the only way to play! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/cool.gif |
Re: Blast from the Past, Return of the Underkings
Saulot there must be miscommunication I mean, regardless of sprites that dwarves (what kobolds) should not be size 1 but size 2 (for example take the lord of th rings movies) Gimli is more equal sized with aragorn than with hobbits bulk-wise.
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Re: Blast from the Past, Return of the Underkings
He understands what you mean Aezeal. He's just saying the sprites he's using, which were made by Zepath when this was a dom2 mod, are the size of other size 1 units like hoburgs. Roughly speaking.
Therefore Zepath intended the dwarves to be size 1. You'll find the same thing in Kharam Dzu, the dwarven pirate mod Zepath made for dom3. Size 1 dwarves. Sure, you think they should be size 2. But zepath didn't. |
Re: Blast from the Past, Return of the Underkings
sprites aren't that important and no reason not to just make them size 2.
I'm right and everyone who thinks dwarves need to be size 1 are wrong. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/laugh.gif |
Re: Blast from the Past, Return of the Underkings
You guys should debate this like you have RL facts to back it up.
It was very entertaining to watch people debate the anatomy of undead and gorgon petrification on the main forum. Some people even bothered to do 'research'. Was quite funny http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif. |
Re: Blast from the Past, Return of the Underkings
I'm not debating http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/laugh.gif I'm just saying I'm right http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/laugh.gif
As long as they are size one I will call this mod the gnome mod.. of course I have facts to prove that gnomes wouldn't have these stats either (well except the size 1 http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/laugh.gif) |
Re: Blast from the Past, Return of the Underkings
Quote:
Also, you should stop debating whether stating things is or is not debating. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...ies/tongue.gif |
Re: Blast from the Past, Return of the Underkings
I'm not going to debate with you, I'm just right and even KO is wrong, with his Svartgnomes and vanheim gnomes.
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Re: Blast from the Past, Return of the Underkings
When I do warhammer dwarfs and chaos dwarfs they will be size 2. The sprites will be larger than size 1 though.
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Re: Blast from the Past, Return of the Underkings
All hail Sombre
Sombre agrees with me, further testimony to me being right. (not that I needed to be convinced) |
Re: Blast from the Past, Return of the Underkings
Who knew dwarf-size would be so controversial... heh, I guess size really does matter.
By the way, the Battlemaster is a battle-golem... er... giant possessed/animated suit of armor. It's just not recruitable. It's a late-game summon. Probably around 50 gems (so that should tell you what sort of terror it should be). Though it doesn't have most slots, and isn't a mage so it can't self-buff, it doesn't really need to. Recruitable golems sounds totally strange. What would golems need with money? @Sombre: Well, with you doing two dwarf nations and Honeybadger doing another one as well... there will certainly be enough dwarves running around to make everyone happy. *ponders 4 person game of dwarf blitz* |
Re: Blast from the Past, Return of the Underkings
You could have them cost 1 gold and lots of resources though.
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Re: Blast from the Past, Return of the Underkings
Hm... probably would have to be pretty extreme amounts of resources, like 100 or so. Otherwise every fort you make equals too much freespawn.
Not a bad idea though. |
Re: Blast from the Past, Return of the Underkings
There is quite some money needed to forge magic golems.. precious resources (but then as non-metal resources so not out of the resource pool but which you need to buy with money)
I think 1 gold 100 resources isn't the way to go since it would be too easy to get them. |
Re: Blast from the Past, Return of the Underkings
I thought gold represented training and salaries. Whereas resources represented material and forging.
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Re: Blast from the Past, Return of the Underkings
Not necessarily.
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Re: Blast from the Past, Return of the Underkings
Of course dwarves are small. The very word dwarf means small, while gnome means funny man with funny face, funny hat and funny size. Garden gnomes are small, but garden dwarves are miniscule.
THere is a word for 'little men' in all languages I suppose. Dwarf, dvärg or something else. Not 'squat men'. We follow international conventions an keep the dwarves small. Gnomes on the other hand could be as any size as long as they appear funny http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif --- Gold is mostly training and salaries. But since it is an abstraction it could mean expensive materials that need maintenance or refueling. Perhaps the golem runs on olive oil. Then it eats supplies as well http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif I don't think 100 res is that much. With a nice dominion and fort you can easily get 400-500 res. 4 Golems/turn sounds pretty nasty (but I dont know how powerful you intended them). Hinnom will have a commander that costs 123 res becaiuse of his size (6) and high res cost of magical gear. Ashdod will have an anakite soldier with res 88. I've tested them some. Recruitment is rather slow, but they are powerful and it feels ok. |
Re: Blast from the Past, Return of the Underkings
Changelog added to the second post.
First post has a few more things included (in blue for ease of reading). I've been working on Underheim for quite a bit more this week, and progress is good, I added two new pretenders, some more spells, and tweaked stats around. The second pretender was inspired by some interesting stories about the Bergrisar, and I think many of you will really like it. I feel much better now about the pretender selection, and feel the spell selection is robust enough. As for actually running playtest games from start to finish, I haven't actually gotten to that yet (as new inspirations keep coming). Despite some ideas still remaining, I'm going to refrain from adding anything more. So until I run some games through to completion,... you'll all just have to be patient. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif |
Re: Blast from the Past, Return of the Underkings
hey post your mod.. I want to rip the graphs (since you did that too) to have something to look too when trying my own dwarven mod
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Re: Blast from the Past, Return of the Underkings
I'm slowly developing a mod using a human race that I call builders. I'm making a summonable unit that might fit in well with your dwarves because of their constuction skills.
The unit is a siege tower. It is summonable, fairly pricey, with requirements that match the base magic skills of the best mage of the nation who I've given 1 magic point in a path that is unique among all other recruitables. It'll have a siege bonus of 25 to 100 (still developing that) with very low attack, defense and HP values along with negative 100% resistance to fire, shock etc. Also it would have 0 mp and 3 ap. It has no usable function other than to accelerate breaching the castle walls. My thinking on the unit is that you have to sally forth to destroy it, much like I've seen in a hundred movies. Your a much better modder than I , so you would probably do the thought justice if you think it is viable. If not, I'll creep along with my development. |
Re: Blast from the Past, Return of the Underkings
It has 0 mapmove? How is it going to get to the fort to help with the siege?
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Re: Blast from the Past, Return of the Underkings
I think he wants you to summon it in the enemy province where you cannot not have a lab while doing the siege.
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Re: Blast from the Past, Return of the Underkings
That'd be easier to do by making a Siege Engineer who can shape change into a siege tower with bigger gold cost (== higher upkeep) and mapmove 0, but huge siege-bonus and perhaps powerful, short-range attacks. If done well, it'd be useful enough to be near the frontlines, i.e. near the walls.
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Re: Blast from the Past, Return of the Underkings
Quote:
I don't have much feel for recruitables. What I think is good is way too strong. |
Re: Blast from the Past, Return of the Underkings
Of course the second form doesn't have to have the command to change shape back.
Amos made good use of this in the insectoids mod. |
Re: Blast from the Past, Return of the Underkings
That sure sounds like workable solution.
I am not thinking of assigning a high gold cost because I am thinking that it would only be used in a specific province, thus not justifying high upkeep cost. A gem expensive shape changing summonable siege engineer sounds like an idea that fits in with what I am picturing. I like the idea of not allowing a shape change back also. I figure that historically, siege towers were built on the spot and not transported to the next walled defensive site. Maybe some hardware and a few elements were salvaged, but I'm proceeding on the basis of 100% loss. |
Re: Blast from the Past, Return of the Underkings
@Aezeal:
I thought you didn't want size 1 dwarfsprites? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/smirk.gif The Zepath mod with many dwarf sprites that I'm using is still available on the Dom2 forum. As for Underheim, it will be released when... it's... ready. @KO: No worries, no golems in this mod. Ideas saved for later. @Edratman: Siegetowers eh? It's a nice idea. I worked up a watchtower (which shot crossbows) for the kobolds in Urdheim, but my biggest hurdle was the lack of size due to the 128 pixel limit, and what happens when you get routed... the tower rotates and tries to escape(!), even though it's immobile. That can be fixed by giving it a special morale, but still was pretty amusing. So the question you want to consider, is the siegetower big enough? (Some of the forts have giant walls.) The second problem is when you have more than one. It looks real wierd, since units (particularly units of the same type) are rarely spaced out in a formation of normal battle lines, and having several towers next to each other (siege or watch tower) looks pretty horrible. I went around this problem using it as a tier 2 province commander ensuring uniqueness, but still... the result was still somewhat clunky and awkward and I axed the unit. For you to avoid this problem, you'll need to make the unit which transforms into a siege tower kind of rare. Either making it a ritual summon which costs some decent amount of gems, or a cap-only commander when you have other cap-only commanders who you desperately want all the time. While it's true historically that siegetowers were built on-site and only for their prospective target, I'd advise against it. There is no method to remove units. So either you do make it a oneway trip, which leaves you a permanent siegetower sitting there, which means you'd pretty much have to give it no upkeep in tower form. Or you make the siege engineer be able to changeshape both ways, and just make him expensive in engineer and tower form (to reflect the costs of building and maintaining such a tower in active use). Your last problem is, how strange or abstract the siege mechanics work in Dominions. A siegetower is supposed to get your units to a wall, fight defenders on a wall, and capture the walls, and then open the gates, letting in the rest of your army. The siegetower unit would do none of those things, just have a strong siegebonus. The towers of a fort that's being stormed still fires at you, which means the walls haven't been captured, but the gate is somehow open. The most realistic unit that could be made considering the Dom siege situation, is a battering ram. It breaks open the gates. That's how it's supposed to work, and that's how it would work in game. (One can assume that as part of the abstraction that IS what is going on. There ARE battering rams all over the place, built and then destroyed for each siege.) After all KO isn't actually opposed to siege weapons, he did have them in COE. Ballistas, catapults, and even trebuchets were quite common in my dwarf armies. I think his complaint was one of scale. The inability to bestow the awesome size on a siege weapon, due to the 128 pixel limit. Now if none of these problems feel insurmountable for you, then great, I'd love to see the results. Unique things like that tend to add a lot of flavor to nations. I'm somewhat opposed to adding siegetowers to Underheim, since they don't really need it. I even considered battering rams early on, but it would just be redundant with the miners and mine foremans, and I was unsatisfied with my sprite results. I'll be revisiting the siege construct idea in my next mod. |
Re: Blast from the Past, Return of the Underkings
my dwarves will have stat size 2, no fear
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Re: Blast from the Past, Return of the Underkings
Dwarves should clearly have fear.
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Re: Blast from the Past, Return of the Underkings
/me hurts sombre
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Re: Blast from the Past, Return of the Underkings
Well, I just finished one complete run-through. I used the No Indep. SilentSeas map and played vs. Impossible Jotunheim with no mercs. I used a sleeping loremaster pretender with Dom4, E9S4, but didn't use sacreds at all in this test. As expected, I had a very slow and painful start, but eventually triumphed using a collection of highborns, hurlers, crossbows, and bolt throwers, with a smattering of battleragers.
It was very satisfying seeing many throwing axes, crossbow bolts, and ballistas flying across the battlefield. I can report that Battleragers are functioning exactly as I want them to, they frequently rush ahead of the other dwarven forces, and chop away against the enemy, often getting 10-15 kills in a battle, early on hitting the hall of fame, usually accumulating an affliction or two, before dying in a blaze of glory after 1-4 battles. They're thuggable if you spend the effort in items, but they pretty much will get themselves killed no matter what. I'm considering increasing their size (just in terms of space they occupy, not their sprite) to prevent their being coddled by players by keeping them in the back and then timing their movement so they somehow manage to stay in formation with other dwarves. At size 3, they won't get quite that formation protection, and are more likely to be hit by ranged weapons. The Dwarven clerics and their healing spells work wonderfully (and also as I had hoped), many dwarven lives are saved (most importantly prolonging the battleragers), though afflictions accumulate steadily, which tends to somewhat offset experience gains. Earth gems feel the squeeze (more so than Agartha) as there are so many things to spend them on, and while I usually have gem reserves in most of my games, there were none in this one. I'll try a bless strategy for my next game, though rushing is really out of the question, with the extremely expensive cap-only paladins. |
Re: Blast from the Past, Return of the Underkings
Well, uploaded the unit roster to the first post. Most of the top half is original Zepath.
Anyway, haven't had time to get a second run through yet, but will be getting to that soon. After that, it should be decent enough to release, and most of the balancing and tweaking will come then. |
Re: Blast from the Past, Return of the Underkings
The sprites are really good.
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Re: Blast from the Past, Return of the Underkings
There's a pretty distinct difference between Zepath graphics and your added graphics, but with them mostly being summons it doesn't seem too jarring.
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Re: Blast from the Past, Return of the Underkings
How's this mod going? Is a release imminent? I've been checking back daily in anticipation.
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Re: Blast from the Past, Return of the Underkings
I'd love to see this one in action, too.
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Re: Blast from the Past, Return of the Underkings
Very well, wish granted.
The first version is released, you may download it from the first post. My apologies for the delay, but the constraints on my time this month have been quite exceptional. It seems like many modders or developers, I sometimes operate under Valve time. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif http://developer.valvesoftware.com/wiki/Valve_Time Anyway, the balancing is still far from finished, hopefully you all will be able to help with that. Remember, comments and criticisms will help make the mod better. It's interesting to note, that Underkings is automatically balanced up when played by the AI, since it doesn't follow 0 mapmove limitations. I didn't plan on that, but let's call it a feature of the mod. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif |
Re: Blast from the Past, Return of the Underkings
before I look... what size are dwarves?
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Re: Blast from the Past, Return of the Underkings
I looked at it, and some stuff draw my attention :
- Loremaster has new magic path cost 40 . Is it intentional ? Considering is other stats, I would rather take a great enchantress. It is thematic for dwarves not to have too diverse magic, but I thing you could give him another path. Or two, and raise path cost to 50-60. - At the beginning of line 4 of Mimir's backgroung "the them" seems a bit too much. I'm now going back o playing them, and will give further feedback if I've got anything to say. |
Re: Blast from the Past, Return of the Underkings
Woo hoo! Thanks Saulot! Wow, there is a lot of work here!
Aezeal, the dwarves here seem to be Size 1, though I think I'm with you that Size 2 is more appropriate for (edit: a Tolkien/FRPG) type of dwarf. At size 1 though they'll use less food, be deadly at group melee combat (5/square), and be easy mulch for tramplers... Edit: The dwarf sprites are drawn to about a size-1 scale, though. Like, 3-feet tall or so. |
Re: Blast from the Past, Return of the Underkings
I just tried a game and got a no holiness error CTD. I believe this is from certain units having priest levels but not having the sacred tag?
--Changed pathfinder and Dwarf Lord to holy status and still got the error... --scratch that, I'm just getting some crossover with monster numbers from another mod http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...es/Injured.gif |
Re: Blast from the Past, Return of the Underkings
The thrown hammers from Dwarven Throwing Axe are visually enormous (like, two meters long) for some reason. Their range should probably be Strength rather than straight 12.
Dwarves should probably use a better Axe than the standard Axe - there's no reason to prefer the Axe dwarf to the hammer dwarf, and the only cost difference is 1 resource point, for +1 attack. |
Re: Blast from the Past, Return of the Underkings
I notice that the Battleragers are size 3, hulking monstrosities compared to their normal brethren. Intended?
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Re: Blast from the Past, Return of the Underkings
yeah I can imagine themhaving loads of armor and being one size larger might fit.... and size 3 sounds nice to me...if regular dwarves where size 2 http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/laugh.gif
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