magic modding question
 

Can you:

1. Make it so a nation cannot use the regular spells
2. Make it so a nation gets a different research curve than other nations

I would like this because IMHO a dwarf race should not have magic. I'm thinking of modding that dwarf thing here on the forum. The plan would to make a number of spells holy/earth

the race would then only need to research earth and shouldn't get ANY other spells. of course.. with regular research you'd get all your spells quite fast so I'd want every level to take about 4 times as long. (So this race would be fully researched the same time others would have researched 4 different groups till level 9)

The dwarves would then become a fanatical religous race (high level priests) which would get sacred gunners (yes magic guns, I really liked why the other mod didn't want to use guns but I like the idea of being fanatical it combines good with not trading/telling etc about the magic involved in crafting the guns.)

Re: magic modding question
 

As far as I know you can't remove spells or modify research
for one specific nation. But is it really needed? Just don't
give the nation any spellcasters (save priests) or gem income
at all. That way only the pretender and independent mages are
available.

If the player still wants to use spells it's still a possibility,
though a bit more difficult then usual, while it lets you
focus on making a nonmagic nation viable in lategame.
I assume variations of #domsummon might be useful to
simulate new units being constructed rather then summoned.

Re: magic modding question
 

1. No. The engine internals do support what you describe (notice that LA Ermor does not get the regular priest spells) but this isn't accessible to modders, and is probably hard coded somehow.

2. Not directly, but you can give them national spells, partway up the research tree, that provide a research bonus.

So, a nation could have lousy researchers and then a spell at Const 5 which enables them to build superior researchers.

I think it violates the spirit of the game to prevent the dwarven pretender from casting death spells if he has death magic, myself, anyway.

Re: magic modding question
 

the dwarven pretender would have to be scales and/or SC

I see another way.

Wauthan has the right idea

If I give the nation no magicians, they can't construct labs, so no indep mages either (unless they get a lab through event)

Then the pretender remains, can I remove all standard pretenders from a race and let them only choose from a few new ones (a few new ones with no magic paths and new magic path cost 5000000000)

I'd just have to make a whole lot of holy spells

DAMN you can't research holy spells so you'd start with them all.. which can't ever be balanced

hmm or... they get research.. so they can research and then .., damn I'm stuck can you make earth spells which require no earth level or gems to cast?

Re: magic modding question
 

You know, it would be a lot easier to give advice and ideas if
you mentioned what effects you're going for. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

A 'tiered' summoning of units, without spellcasting, is pretty
easy. One expensive unit has #domsummon of the first tier unit.
That unit has #domsummon of the next tier unit and so on...
This forces the player to keep the 'chain of summoning' intact while
still making the nation grow increasingly more powerful as dominion
spreads. So in effect you've got a research system based on praying
priests, though it's a bit clunky.

Attack spells can be simulated with either ranged weapons,
which uses ammo, or #onbattlespell using custom spells.

Re: magic modding question
 

I think it can be done, although I don't know how to get around indy mages.

Set the nation's only pretender with earth and set the price for all other paths so high that you cannot afford to take a single one. Then all you would have is whatever you put on the nationals and the pretender with earth. It wouldn't be too bad if the pretender did have access to a little earth magic.

As for speed, I do not know if the command "#researchscale" affects only your nation or everyone. I've never used it but I am sure someone can advise.

Another alternative to Wauthan's fine tiered suggestion is to put your summons at level 8 (for example) in different schools of magic.

Re: magic modding question
 

There's no way to get rid of the spellbooks without doing so for the other nations.

You also can't get rid of the base pretenders.

Er,... Well, you can't do either of these without doing some really extensive modding. Crazy amounts of modding, using crazy amounts of unit slots and spell slots. Maybe more than exist.

Unfortunately, all these dwarves wouldn't be forging. Which is a shame.

The tiered method doesn't work.
Commanders which summon other units are commanders, and units can't summon anything.

Even if it did work, it means that every time you play, you'd pretty much follow the same formula and moves you did last time. Furthermore, unless balanced precisely (since it uses a brancing method, each change of balance has exponential effects), it becomes a freespawn nation likely more powerful than Ermor/R'lyeh.

Researchscale is modded for the entire game (all nations). Though you can mod individual mages of any power down to have only 1 research.

I've given the no-magic idea a lot of thought before (thinking about a Macedon vs. Achaemenid mod), and it's really just not feasible. Dom3 is a fantasy high-magic game, and cutting out all the magic is like removing the torso from a zombie. All you get is a giant mess.

Re: magic modding question
 

I think researchable holy spells work just as well as any others. The problem is that there's no holy spells, and thus the only limit would be the availability of casters. Once you can summon one Holy 6 "mage", you can summon one more every turn.

Re: magic modding question
 

Not if you make them unique.

But then you're really starting to go way out there for an idea that might not be so great to begin with. As Saulot points out, if you're trying to make a huge change to the core game mechanics you usually end up with a bit of a mess which sort of works but probably isn't very enjoyable.

I was thinking about the same issue when I was planning out Warhammer Dwarfs. The Dwarfs in warhammer have no magic and use runes and items instead. I need to find a way to translate that to dom3 in a way that is interesting and playable. So Dwarfs can't have very strong magic, lots of paths etc. But just giving them great earth magic also doesn't really fit how they are in warhammer. The answer imo is low levels of magic which the player can boost up if they so wish (so max probably 2E 1F or something) plus lots of interesting rune based national spells and summons which are largely low level and very powerful, but require gems. Dwarfs have a solid gem income thanks to either units which produce them or possibly just lots in their cap - this fits their character and allows for the Dwarfs to 'power' a magical pretender by giving them lots of gems, as well as empowering their own mages.

I was also planning on putting a second 'path' of magic for the dwarfs by giving them holy/earth spells which are all 1 or 2 earth but increasing levels of holy required - these are for the Runesmiths with anvils of shooty lightning and so on.

Anyway, that was the plan. I'll do them in the future no doubt, since they're all mapped out.

Re: magic modding question
 

Well basicly I'd want the dwarves not to have acces to the regular spells of earth too...

I'd just want some summonings and forging.

The thing I'd REALLY like is to have recruitables and somehow upgrade their weapons when somesort of research has been completed. (to compensate for later game battlefield wide spells.)

This could be done by making them summons most easily.. but dwarves don't get summoned they should just get trained like others.

I know what sombre and saulot mean, but I don't think a non-magic nation would per definition not work in dominions.. but with current modding it just seems not possible

Re: magic modding question
 

can pretenders have holy magic?

Re: magic modding question
 

I have been able to put holy magic on pretenders using map mods. Never tried it making a sacred pretender that would be chosen in startup menu.

Re: magic modding question
 

Yeah pretenders can have holy magic.

Re: magic modding question
 

so if I can produce a reason to FORCE pplz to chose my pretenders (the only earth/holy pretenders) then I can basicly force them not to have anyother magic path available to start with

but wait did someone say you can creat researchable holy spells?

So I could make a pretender w/o magic, create a bunch of holy spells too and let those have the effects I want?

so then
- no labs for my race?
- no magic

arg dammit
it would mean no forging too unless I create a whole bunch of holy forgable items (ehm is that possible?).. which would still require research in construction.. (which is no problem I realize now)

PS I realize a race like this wouldn't have many different strats (even less options than LA ermor).. but still could be fun.. if you like dwarves http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/laugh.gif

So I could make a pretender with high holy magic
I could create new holy spells to do damage or buff
the race could forge "holy" items
.. but can you make holy summons?

Re: magic modding question
 

It seems I wrote my post too tired. When I wrote "there are no holy spells", I of course meant "there are no holy GEMS". You can't make holy items, and holy can only be the secondary path of any spell that takes even one gem.

Re: magic modding question
 

well then they would get no spells which cost gems.. not a problem http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/laugh.gif earthquake holy and w/o gems.. dwarfs wouldn't mind I think.

Well maybe earth magic isn't such a problem for dwarves, I can see earth magic as rune magic in a way. being able to get some indies through labs isn't that much of a deal either really, you could hire mages in "reality" too.

On my research I've not been thinkin straight either since the spell could be placed within any research group so to get them you'd still need to research different paths.. (though the gains would not be that great with only earth available)

I'd still make the pretender holy/earth only and not really able to get other paths AND I'd need something vital that needs the combo of HIGH earth/HIGH holy (5/5 at least) to force the players not to use other pretenders..

a unique summon would do the trick.. if I can find a reason why that would be used --> I could force pplz to use an IMMOBILE pretender some "holy rune of divine dwarven power" which could produce a unit/turn --> a SC which would be used a bit like a regular pretender.. or would that create the same unit turn after turn so you can't use it (instead of only summoning it when it's dead again)

Re: magic modding question
 

OK I need something... some reason why you would need my 4E/4holy (or whatever) pretender instead of a regular one.

(because obviously my thinking in last post is not correct)

I need something VITAL your pretender can do and no other can.

Re: magic modding question
 

Your nation could have no recruitables - you need to summon commanders who then summon troops, you can only get onto the summoning ladder with an initial 4E4H commander summoning ritual.

That way the nation would be unplayable without your pretender.

Re: magic modding question
 

hmm a good idea, and what I asked for.. but.. well.. dwarves are not summoned in my point of view, but recruited.

Isn't there a way to kill all pretenders w/o earth and holy magic in a province, through a site or something?
--> doubt it

Or to domkill you if you don't have a earth/holy pretender?
--> guess not

Or make it so only a certain pretender could get you the primary castle? --> this might be an idea if I could get a start prov without a castle, but I fear that can't be done either.

Re: magic modding question
 

I've got 2 new options

1. would it be possible to make a spell that creates a magicsite (a magic site that would normally be your cap-only magic site), which produces your cap only units? That would really be a reason to take the pretender that has the ability to cast that spell.

2. Or (on the same thingie) not as spell but to have a cap only magic site (the one which will create your important units) that doesn't show up to start with but that could only be found by a holy 6 mage/priest (which would be what your pretender has to do on his first turn?)

Re: magic modding question
 

1. No. (Even if there was, how would you prevent someone from casting it in every province? heh.)

2. This seems doable at first, but as far as I know, all capitals come with all their sites revealed.

Re: magic modding question
 

on 1. Saulot (even though it's not possible) I'd want it to be unique.

Re: magic modding question
 

You can research holy spells - example... quickroots.

Or you could give them a negative path or research bonus... making casting or research harder.

Re: magic modding question
 

I've been trying to figure out some way to do something along the same lines. The best concept (never been tried yet) that I've been able to come up with is to make a spell that summons a zero MP unit (I'm thinking of calling it an altar). This unit would then have the ability to summon the secondary unit that I am really interested in recruiting (sic) away from my capital.

Probably not a balanced concept. But I plan to get around to trying it on my upcoming flight to Hawaii. (Eat your hearts out. I've got inside info that the climate in Hawaii is slightly better than that of Sweden.)

Re: magic modding question
 

That has been tried before in a couple of mods and works. 0 mapmove unit that you can summon which can then summon other units via domsummon, summon allies command, autosummon or by spells only it can cast.

The code for my Dogs of War mod includes a H6 unit who can summon unique commanders who then summon their individual troops. Paymaster - Captain - Troops. No gems involved, only high goldcosts to create upkeep.

Re: magic modding question
 

Sombre, that's cool. I figured that a more accomplished modder would have tried the concept.

I searched for the Dogs of War mod without success.

Could you provide a link to it? Thank you.

Re: magic modding question
 

You can't find it because I haven't released it. It's like the Empire mod, it's got plenty of code written and quite a few graphics, but it just isn't at the stage I can even beta release it.

Don't know when I'll finish it.

Re: magic modding question
 

OK. Thank you. Your confirmation that the concept is viable is more than enough to make me happy. New spells are fairly easy to write. The trick with doing it well is going to be balancing it.

My thoughts were to make it so it could only be cast by the highest mage, but Azeal's concept of a using a pretender appears to be much better. I am musing about the concept of having to choose between 2 or 3 pretenders that can summon this "altar" with a path/holy combination that is unobtainable any other way, and have this combination cost such that a double 9 bless is out of the question unless you go -3 on everything. Probably will not be a popular idea and would probably favor the nations with free temperature points.

Just my thoughts.

Re: magic modding question
 

I still want most of the dwarves to be recruited in the normal fashion though and I'm pretty much against free summons that are powerfull since I think balance will be very hard end game.

It would've been great if it could be possible to have the need to unlock (search for) a site with a certain pretender to be able to use your powerfull units. Can it really not be done?

Or can it not be done to start without a temple.. without a starting temple you definately can never get your priest units reliably if you don't take a pretender with holy skills (and they don't exist except for the ones I'll be creating.)

Or just leave out the starting castle itself and raise a unique castle (can you have unique castles?) it with a cheap 1 E gem spell.

Re: magic modding question
 

None of that can be done.

I suggest you give the mod manual a read to get an idea of what's possible, or you'll just be wasting your time brainstorming.

Re: magic modding question
 

I read it just keep hoping you know more http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...ies/tongue.gif