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Conceptual Content Mod
So I was talking to QM the other day about a mod project that I’ve been considering for a while and he’d been thinking about a similar thing. While I enjoy bringing entirely new nations to dom3 and will continue to do so (currently working on lizardmen) I also love the basegame nations and often feel like adding stuff to them, particularly when using a nation that has a very short recruitment list or a glaring lack of national summons.
My original thought was to produce a mod which added exactly 1 national spell and 1 new recruitable unit to each nation, ensuring that this new content was thematically on point and if possible gave the race a new strategy (so a niche unit or spell) or helped balance it a bit. I also wanted to avoid replacing anything currently used by the nation – so no flat out better infantry, no atavi longbows, no pale ones with more suitable weapons and shields,… nothing like that. Instead I might give Jomon a battlefield Koga Ninja troop, or Machaka a pygmy with animal awe for elephant killing duty, or a DN vine based entangle spell that also poisons or causes fear for LA Pangaea. I like this idea of 1 unit and 1 spell for each nation. It gives a clear goal and everyone can tell fairly easily what’s been added. But on the other hand it’s clear that some basegame nations have plenty of content while others are rather bare – particularly those with no national spells whatsoever. So while I think 1 unit and 1 spell would be a nice minimum to aim for, clearly some nations could use more love than others. I think a good idea to start would be just looking at the MA nations. At this stage I want to plan things out a bit so I thought I’d get feedback from you fine folks. Any great ideas for content? Which nations need it most? Which have a glaring lack of something? QM and I agreed that while some national spells could be summons, it might actually be more interesting to add new combat spells rather than rituals, because non-summon national spells are a bit rarer in basegame. |
Re: Conceptual Content Mod
I think every nation should get maybe a national SC, like Iron Angel for Ulm, Angels for Pythium/Mari, Tlalocs and demons for Mictlan...
Every nation could get more summons. National summons are really cool. I suppose it will be small project first and it will get incorporated into CBM later, like WH? Oh, I could work on summons for T'ien Ch'i, probably all ages. My favourite nations and I like Chinese mythology :0 |
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Tienchi actually already has quite a lot of content, especially in terms of national summons. I would make sure it got the minimum 1 unit 1 spell though.
As for making SCs, well the problem there is that they're major features of the nation and quite hard to balance. They're also usually pretty big projects to actually make. I'm not saying I won't do them though. They certainly provide a lot of scope for theme and fun factor. |
Re: Conceptual Content Mod
We could add many magic/holy spells. For example Holy Light [H+F] giving darkvision 50 [or at least 25] to entire army.
MA TC has some crappy summons [for example that Huli Jing]. Maybe they got better with CBM, but vanilla ones are utter crap. I hope summons here do not become like that. And if that mods is for vanilla and we make lower level summons good [especially compared to other ones] it may be really strange. So adding summonable mages/SCs may be easier to balance for standalone mod, not a part of CBM. I can sit with encyclopedy of mythology and find summons for many nations, I guess http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif Though someone else would have to do stats. |
Re: Conceptual Content Mod
What does Huli Jing summon, again? Shapechanging Nature mage or something?
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Re: Conceptual Content Mod
Shapechanging [into fox] stealthy mage.
P.S. Done some tests - it seems it has some decent randoms. Tested with CBM but I doubt QM changed that. Seems that 3N is basic. I have no idea what other randoms are, but I got things like just 3N; 3N2W2A; 3N1W2S; 3N1A1E. IT doesn't really help or fit TC really though. |
Re: Conceptual Content Mod
The mod will be designed to work with CBM and will use it as a balancing stick. Of course it will also work with basegame.
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Re: Conceptual Content Mod
So,.. how about some suggestions for new recruitable troops? Remember we're talking MA only right now.
I'm very tempted to do a bog beast cavalry unit for MA Ctis. |
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Maybe you should do a bog beast unit for each nation.
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Re: Conceptual Content Mod
New recruitable troops? As in, national and non-commander? Non-joke?
Abysia: Fire Drake-riders, a la LA Agartha's Cave Drake Knights. Eriu: Glamered Slingers. Any nation that uses Mammoths/Elephants: Some other form of early expansion. It gets old. >< Marignon: Fire-resistant 'Guardian of the House of Justice' or maybe 'Justiciars'. Pythium: Is there any way to make a _unit_ that gains bonuses from a communion but otherwise does not affect that communion? IOW, have a 'shieldwall' unit for Pythium that when the Communion Master gains Body Ethereal/Luck/Quickness, they also get, but it doesn't pump the Master's paths? Machaka: A sacred troop that costs <100g. :p Poison Resistance would probably be the way to go. Perhaps give them a weapon that has a secondary effect of webbing the target? Hrm, basically sacred Bane Spider troops, it seems. Caelum: A hybrid melee/ranged unit. That way, they could use hold/attack much better, and leverage the good precision Caelum gets on most of its units. Ermor: Cataphract of some kind? Cf. Nightmare for inspiration. I'm sure I'll think of more. |
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Some of those ideas are very nice and have legs.
I'll give MA Mict an atlatl unit (longrange javelin) I think. |
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I would give to all Mictlans [or maybe to even all bless nations] better non-sacred to at least give somewhat viable non-bless strategy.
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Yes, especially for MA Mictlan! They should have something that makes them special - and more advanced than EA/LA, too. Probably some sort of cavalry?
As for Eriu - they certainly should get chariots! It's Ireland-based, after all! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...es/biggrin.gif MA Arcoscephale... probably cavalry OR some sort of sailing/amphibious unit? Broken Ermor - the idea of something similar to Nightmares is probably the best... but they shouldn't be called Kataphraktes, Equites with some epithtete would be fine. Pythium - maybe light cavalry? Man... don't know. Foot Knight, maybe? Ulm - they would be best served by getting some more mobile troops. May be even mounted crossbowmen? Marignon - don't know. An idea of guard of House of Fiery Justice is tempting... but it makes Flagellants obsolete. And what this House would be more in need of is troops with Patrol bonus! Could some be devised? MA Mictlan - as I've said, maybe some Araukan-based cavalry? Or, say, Crocodile warriors? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif Tien Chi - has it all. And Shao-lin monks would be too much... Machaka - maybe stealthy troops? There were also various leopard cults, etc. Or, if spiders remain the main theme, they could use some quick-climbing troops with siege bonus... MA Agartha - something like miners? or chakram throwers (these could be missiles best suited for underground combat, actually)? Abysia - don't know. As they have no close analog... Chariots?? MA Caelum - also don't know. Maybe some other animal besides Mammoth? Say, weaker but faster? C'tis Miasma - maybe Poor Amphibian troop/mount? Or some non-capital missilers (Boomerang, for example - good range & damage, but few ammo)? Pangaea Age of Bronze - maybe Centaur Chariot? Or missile-armed Minotaurs (say, javelins)? Or Satir Slingers? Vanheim - maybe some missile troops besides javeliners? axe throwers? Jotunheim - Vaetti archers? Bandar Log - Chariot Archers? Mounted Bandar? Shinuyama - Kappa with other weapons? Dai Bakemono with paired weapons but lighter armor? Atlantis - no idea at all. R'lyeh - human acolyte/cultist in land forts? Maybe warriors of some degenerated tribe? Oceania - maybe some harpoon throwers? Eriu - see above: chariots. Plus possibly sacred bulls! |
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C'tis could use a troop or two that could be used with their Poison Slingers.
Sinuyama: Give them a unit like the Syuten Do(o)zi. Since the won't just scrap the nation.... :p |
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Two level one priest/mages for each nation: 1 with a single 100% random elemental and 1 with a single 100% random in sorcery. Gives all nations a shot at non-national paths, but doesn't make it easy.
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Endratman2:
That is a serious topic. |
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There was a mod like that, already. It was something about guilds...
Or perhaps it was for DomII. I can't remember any more details about that, but that sounds as a feasible project, but probably not as part of this one. |
Re: Conceptual Content Mod
Another thought: a possibility for positive-event spells for some nations, such as Arcocephale, Pythium, etc.
Plus, for Pythium & Marignon, at least, it would be thematic to get specific spells for their priest-mages (Astral-Holy & Fire-Holy, respectively). |
Re: Conceptual Content Mod
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Of your other ideas I rather like: Marignon: Fire-resistant 'Guardian of the House of Justice' or maybe 'Justiciars'. Machaka: A sacred troop that costs <100g. :p Poison Resistance would probably be the way to go. Perhaps give them a weapon that has a secondary effect of webbing the target? Hrm, basically sacred Bane Spider troops, it seems. Caelum: A hybrid melee/ranged unit. That way, they could use hold/attack much better, and leverage the good precision Caelum gets on most of its units. The Pythian communion troops wouldn't really work out. I had an idea for MA Pythium - Vanrangian Guard - Heavy Infantry Vans drawing inspiration from the ceremonial Varangian guard of byzantium. I'm thinking mapmove 1, castle def bonus, patrol bonus possibly, axes, overpriced to represent their rather ceremonial nature. Wrana: I think KO would like Mictlan to remain an infantry nation. I like the idea of chariots for Eriu. Tienchi fighting monks might be interesting, but there's no shortage of possibilities for TC. Machaka can't have any lion based units because of the upcoming EA Machaka, but something like a Leopard or Hyena themed non sacred troop would be interesting. I'll look up some unusual african weapons too. Bandar Log could perhaps do with an elite bandar infantry, since they are all about the bandar basically. |
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It's there : http://www.shrapnelcommunity.com/thr...o=&fpart=1 (made 6 or 7 patches ago, I'm not sure it work correctly with actual version) |
Re: Conceptual Content Mod
Of the extensive list of nations I've played in MP (4), I found that MA Man had the most room for improvement.
MA Man has a pretty predictable strategy: recruit longbows & research Wind Guide. Its national summons included a bunch of unthematic death hounds, or some such nonsense. As it stands, MA Man has only limited access to Water: capital-only Crones get a 26% shot at W1 and a 0.6% chance at W2. Summoning Naiads is an option, but they'd first need Const6 (for the W boosters), Conj5, and 35W gems...not very likely for a nation beelining for Alt5; plus Naiads aren't really combat-mages, as they lose HP & get afflictions when away from home. I propose a Naiad-like summon for MA Man. It would be less magically powerful than the Conj5 Naiad (maybe W2N1), but won't lose HP on the move. It'll give Man Quickness for their longbows, open Voice of Aspu/Tiamet, provide a viable path into Water magic, and fit nicely into the King Arthur theme (Lady of the Lake). Placing it in the Enchantment tree will give the player something to think about: Is Wind Guide now my only option?...Can I make Gift of Flight Work?...Cloud Trapeze? And the mod fulfills it's purpose. ----------------- Initial design thoughts: "Lady of the Lake" (or "Mother of the Lake," "Naiad of Avalon," "Lady of Avalon Lake," "Daughter of...etc") W2N1 mage, 40 leadership, amphibian, Awe+0 Requires N3W1 to summon <font color="red"> (Edit: making it castable by 27% of Crones)</font>, 20N gems, maybe Ench4? |
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_dog_%28ghost%29 And do you remember this old jewel? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Hou...e_Baskervilles |
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Wow, I suppose that makes a lot more sense.
BUT, MA Man needs to take a Death pretender to access those summons on any relevant timescale. I've never seen them in action (Black Dogs & Barghests) so I can't comment if they're worth building a Pretender around. |
Re: Conceptual Content Mod
I really don't like the whole concept of national spell not castable by national mages, even with a lot of boosters.
I hope Xietor will give MA Man to Kristoffer in mega-game so we can get that nation fixed after all. They are nice early but when mid-game starts they suck. Against almost everyone. There should be also smth done with total domination of astral races. Especially over races that have absolutely no astral mages. But that is not for that mod. |
Re: Conceptual Content Mod
Well, the Ghost King (death magic) is a pretty good choice for MA Man, both thematically and in a strategic sense. Half cost temples will see to that many ghosts of old will haunt the misty highlands of Man. The Ghost King of long past Tuatha sees to that great black hounds hunt in the night (utterdark).
There, now MA Man can fight mid-late game. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif |
Re: Conceptual Content Mod
You will get mind-hunted and trampled anyway http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif
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Must agree on national spells not castable by national mages.
To Sombre: Mictlan - and what on Crocodile warriors? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif Tien Chi - I see they are a great nation as they are, but you asked about all nations! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif And fighting monks would be too similar to Warriors of 5 Elements, so I mentioned them only as an example... Of course, they would work, but won't add much.. Machaka - well, Zulusi actually DID use two-headed spears! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif And African "throwing irons" are certainly weird enough, but I don't know what their stats should be, especially as chakram got so sucky ones. They also used many versions of swords, but these should all probably be equivalent to broadsword/falchion. Also they sometimes used a parrying club in left hand, but this probably wouldn't work... Another idea could be a unit with Seasonla power.. And what did you mean about Hyena? (there is also a possibility to rise up something from African Tertian fauna - as Nature summon or Death Enchantment...) Bandar Log - they already have quite a few kinds of Bandar infantry. Elite Bandar should either get something special, or they won't be taken by anyone as normal Bandar are already stronger than normal human infantry, but even elite ones won't be on par with Vans or Abyssians... Pythium - unfortunately, it uses Republican Rome as basis for its troops, not Byzantium. I would be glad to make it more Byzantian, but think it goes beyond the scope of this mod. And Vans, even infantry, I think would be almost the same degree of 'too much' as communion troops. Also, Pythium already has solid infantry. Maybe adding 'gladiatorial animals' other than Hydras would be better idea? To All on Man: Having no MP experience with it, I still tend to think of it as a solid nation. Also, I think that they were given weaker infantry specifically to compensate for greatness of Longbowmen. However, 'Witch' for me associates with dark (read: Death/Blood) magic. Maybe they should get some? |
Re: Conceptual Content Mod
That's a nice idea Cleveland. Well thought out and fits thematically.
What would make a nice recruitable troop for Man? |
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I'd like a good medium cavalry for Man, using sword + shield (high defense if protection is low). It would allow to have a fast troop not as ressource intensive as knights, and able to protect archers.
(I said light, but not as light as the actual bow/spear/buckler cavalry, something between them and the 50 ressources knights) Or an ambidextrous elite infantry using 2 swords like the lord wardens (say wardens who have faulted and so are no longer sacred). An infantry with high dammage potential would make Man forces less crappy against ennemies able to protect their troops against arrows. |
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Wrana:
Unfortunatele I played them in MP. They suck big time. For that reasons: - crones got mapmove reduced to 1 - no astral magic [that goes for many nations] - crappy battle mages - OLD AGE! on capitol mages, old age starts quite early and even with N4 old age is at 150, all crones start with age 155-175 - wardens are capitol only and resource heavy There are of course some nice things, like cheap forts, cheap researchers, longbowmen. What they need would be probably: - make wardens non-sacred, but recruitable everywhere - lord warden recruitable everywhere [he may stay sacred] - maybe add stealthy shortbow units - add water picks on crones and mothers of avalon - replace daughter of avalon with something useful or take it out, really stupid and useless capitol-only cheap mage - considerably lower age of crones [to around 100 years] so they do not die like flies - make a 2nd random on Crone 50 or 100%, not 10% [so they have some better chance for A4] - make summonable stealthy beasts That way MA Man would have an alternative way to make a stealthy army with good backup from mothers and monks. Now that strategy with capitol only wardens is not available. |
Re: Conceptual Content Mod
Thank you very much.
A recruitable troop is a bit more difficult. Like Wrana said, they have inferior infantry because their longbowmen are so good; simply giving them a better infantry unit would be unbalancing, I think. One possibility is to adapt the "Forester" commander (MA Man's scout) into some sort of rank-and-file troop. The Forester is an unusual but interesting commander: 2-weapons (axe & dagger, ambidextrous) plus a short bow (at 12 precision), stealthy(+10), patrol bonus(5), forest survival, but no leadership. How's this sound: Forester Cadet "Those who aspire to be Foresters must undergo rigorous training as Forester Cadets. Midway through their training, Cadets are pressed into active military service, usually to quell unrest and hunt down enemy spies, but occasionally as marksmen in support of the Wardens behind enemy lines. Cadets lack the hand-to-hand combat skills of true Foresters, but proved quite effective against the large Tuatha when in formation.” The unit would then be a copystat of the Forester, with several ability reductions (they’re in training, after all): <font color="brown">Edit: On second thought, I'd recommend keeping the axe/dagger/short bow combo of the base Forester, but remove the ambidextrous to make him bit less effective</font> 11 precision<font color="brown">(vs. base precision 12)</font> , so the short bow is somewhat less effective Stealthy(+0) <font color="brown">(vs. base stealthy +10, though this has no effect for units)</font> Patrol Bonus(1)<font color="brown">(vs. base Patrol Bonus(5) ) </font> 15gold? <font color="brown">(vs. base cost 20gold; a longbow costs 13gold, for comparison) </font> Basically, this unit should make the MA Man player give serious consideration to stealth raiding. As it stands, MA Man is awash with stealthy commanders, but has only one stealthy troop, the Warden, which is capital-only sacred. They’d be useless in large battles, where less-expensive longbows will be the preferred missile units and the lack of a shield will make them too vulnerable as blockers (shieldless=death by friendly fire), so no imbalance there. But 2 weapons plus a bow gives them very nice stealth raiding potential, and in a pinch they can be thrown at giants/elephants for some six 6-attack-per-square action. Thoughts? If nothing else, it gives the poor Forester unit some company, which currently seems so out-of-place. |
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A unit themed around the Forester commander also sounds like a good idea. I'm not sure about the equipment and stats, but a middle tier mapmove 2 infantry/ranged unit with stealth and forest survival sounds good for MA Man. They are largely a forest based nation after all.
I'm quite tempted to go with minor animal awe actually - in Britain various animals such as wolves were hunted to extinction as the population grew - these forester themed units could be specifically trained to hunt down dangerous beasts. This of course would give them some more niche uses. Also - wolfhounds. These fit with the Camelot/Round Table influence and the general feel of Man. Also act as a cheapo version of the summons. |
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Personally I think Daughters being capital-only rather stupid idea. As recruitable everywhere they could be useful as cheap researchers...
Medium cavalry would be nice. Especially as English & Scottish knights usually weared significantly less armor then their continental colleagues... due to the fact that their countries wern't exactly rich. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif Hobilars of Scotch border weared armor but less than even local knights... though they usually fought on foot (but we need not go into these details). 2-sword infantry, I think, would be too much - or at least will look that way! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif What could be done is to give foresters some leadership. Stealthy bowmen I don't think would be particularly useful & making Wardens non-sacred would be against the standing theme of the nation. |
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Yes! Wolfhounds certainly! They'll also give some company to summons. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif I'm not sure whether thay should be recruitable troops or summonable by Foresters, etc.
Another thing - as weapons for foresters-in-training I would offer quarterstaffs which would make them not particularly dangerous for dedicated melee troops, but able to defend themselves longer due to weapon Defense bonus. And these were actually used in England by both brigands & those who hunted them! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif |
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I'm not making any changes to existing units if I can help it, that sort of stuff should be brought up in the CBM thread.
This is about adding a little content to each nation. I'm dead-set against adding any unit with a quarterstaff because as far as I'm concerned it's a buggy weapon. The def stat on it is silly. But I don't want to get into that in this thread. |
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What do you mean by silly? The weapon definitely IS very useful to defend with!
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Well, if he wants to use that as argument here, he shouldn't think that I will take it as Holy Writ. Either he should argue his point or just drop it.
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I tend to agree with Wrana on this issue. If no 'quarterstaff' units can be even suggested without being rejected, the underlying issue needs to be addressed.
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Hahah, what? Drop it? So if I don't argue the point in this thread I have to concede and do what you tell me?
Good luck with getting that to work. |
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This is fun reading. Thank you. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif
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I'd give the Huntsman hatchet, dagger and shortbow. Whether or not the staff would fit a British low-born warrior, the unit is modeled after Forester, and thus should should be ambidextrous dual-wielder.
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Yeah an axe/dagger/shortbow does make sense. Makes it quite an unusual troop too, while similar to the LA Ulmish rangers.
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Sorry, I did mean hatchet. I don't pay much attention to the order weapons actually resolve in though and I'm not sure I want to start now http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...ies/tongue.gif
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Re: Conceptual Content Mod
Here's what I wrote, in an other thread.
Also, I meant hatchet (253), not an axe. Hatchet is dam 5, att/def 0, len 1, while axe is dam 7, att/def -1, len 1. Hatchet is clearly much better than a normal axe. Also, dagger/hatchet is better than hatchet/dagger, because this way the dagger's weaker strike lowers defence and makes it more likely the more powerful weapon hits. Yeah, I was pretty sure you knew what I meant, I just wanted to be sure. I'm not even sure if there are any units armed with a hatchet in base game. It's pretty rare. |
OT - \"forbidden weapon\" question
To Sombre:
Well, either you are going to discuss the question or not. If you are going to discuss it than do this. If not, than I personally am not going to take your prejudices as arguments on any other questions. Do you have any meaningful objections against using a weapon already existing in the game in the mod? Or are you going to use the immortal I-see-it-so argument ad nauseum? I'm certainly not going to take such "arguments" or stop making my point of view on silliness of such clear. Remain yours truly, Wrana |
Re: Conceptual Content Mod
To Endoperez:
Well, ambidexterity is a learned skill. You can consider that their apprentices hadn't learned it currently... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif There are units armed with hatchet. IIRC, Bear Tribe Warriors & some other tribesmen. And while from the mechanical point of view dagger/hatchet IS better, this is what I would call silly - primary weapon used in off-hand! |
Re: OT - \"forbidden weapon\" question
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As for you not 'taking my prejudices as arguments'; I don't care. I'm not here to influence your opinion on anything. Quote:
I asked people for input and I've gotten some great feedback, but if you want more than that, to exert creative control or demand justifiation, you'll have to either pay me or make your own mod -shrug- |
Re: OT - \"forbidden weapon\" question
Sombre:
Ok, I understand most of my things are rather suggestion for CBM. Making wardens non-sacred and build-everywhere is no option for CCM either? And there are many people throwing ideas around, do you have a task-list of some specific things that should be done? |
Re: OT - \"forbidden weapon\" question
I think this thread is just for completely new units for nations... all other stuff including adjusting existing units is for CBM
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