Questions regarding my strategies
 

Hi, i've been playing dom for a little while and have even tried making a mod.

While I know a lot about the basics, I am still unclear on some specifics. Even though my tactics seem to work against a couple people I play, they are even less experienced than I am. Anyway...

Frankly speaking, my usual mode of play involves rapid expansion and swarm tactics. I like my dominions to be as productive as possible and I try to choose races that have good base troops that can be massed quickly. (Such as various Ulms, MA pithium)

So far, i've usually been able to expand quicker than my opponents and use the basic strategy of minimizing border states and maintaining strong defense. My most frequently used spells are Ash. Record, Call of the Wild, Call of the Wind, Blight and Sea King's Court.

Generally i lag behind in magic research and magic items, but having the largest and most productive country allows me to "smother" invaders by avoiding their strong armies and attacking their territory in many places at once. I'll have a lot more resources and gem income as well, so I will generally get to the point where I can be a bit liberal with these resources and will summon werewolves and springhawks each turn to aid my conquests.


Basically, my question is... will these tactics be disastrous against more apt opponents? Why and How? I mean, in a recent game I was getting like 500 free summon wolves by the end, and even though they were slaughtered almost as fast... the sheer number of them overwhelmed my opponents. Basically, it was more of a war of logistics and supply than of countering my opponents moves.

While my early game micro is pretty good and I conquer independents quickly and reliably, as I move into the later game I pretty much just group archers, have my basic shielded frontline troops, some fodder troops, some fast attakers, etc... and rely on mass numbers. Is there a more effective way to play races like Ulm?

Another time I was in a stalemate with Oceana on land/sea. They kept putting up lure of the sea and far-summoning against me but they were were unable to beat me on land as I was unable to beat them in the sea. I only had a few provences with fishmen at first, and even later when I had undead and sea-trolls I could not hold any ocean provinces. Eventually, I just started mass-blighting the oceans about a dozen times per turn and generally trying to win by attrition. Is there a better way?

Finally, I was recently in a game where an opponent was able to beat numerical odds of about 10 to 1 in frequent cases. Yet I was able to keep sending troops to harass them and capture or pressure their less defended territories while avoiding engaging the strong armies directly. While this happened, I built an army of about 60 Iron dragons commanded by several iron dragons with gift of reason and fire or earth magic. These dragon swarms were basically unbeatable in that game. I had them cast that fire-based fatigue spell to which they are immune, while others used earth buffs. In the grand scheme of things... exactly how strong are a bunch of such iron dragons? Is there a counter to them I should be aware of?

So, that's as far as I've gone strategy-wise.


PS. As funny as this may sound, some of the most fun games i've played were 2-3 PCs vs a strong CPU with some kind of advantage. For example, teaming up against LA Ermor with a 20-turn head start was often a fun co-op challenge. Other than a basic 2v2 or whatever, anyone have any good ideas for co-op multiplayer?

Re: Questions regarding my strategies
 

All war is a war of logistics and supplies http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

From what you've listed, you're utilizing soviet style human-wave tactics. From what I can tell, most of the top players utilize german style mobility tactics, with air and astral.

Nothing is wrong with either. However, the distinguishing factor between success and failure, will most likely be how you adapt to strategies your opponents employ. If you use your strategy as a club, one size fits all, then you will likely lose. If you can learn about your opponents, and include counter-strategies to defeat whatever they've chosen to employ, you will likely win.

You should also have several early, mid, and late game strategies prepared before you even start the game. Too often a novice player has never gotten to the end of a game, and has no clue what they want to do.

Furthermore, a strategy isn't sufficient, you must practice battle tactics. Melee, ranged, and chaff isn't enough. You must learn where to place, how to script, how much is force or firepower is enough, etc. This tends to be much harder and have a longer learning curve than picking up strategies simply by reading the strategy guides. So... practice.

Also, keep in mind luck is a factor. A significant one. From starting positions, to your neighbors, to magic sites you find, to random magic picks, etc. all of these will impact your game.

Lastly, my advice is, don't stress it too much, the game is about having fun, not beating everyone over the head with cold yet brilliant strategy and tactics. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif
So don't skimp on diplomacy, throwing around witty banter, or pithy turns of phrase. Also don't be a sore winner or loser, and you'll likely have players who want to beat you / or be beaten by you, again.

Re: Questions regarding my strategies
 

IME, getting a dominion kill against an underwater nation is easier than trying to fight them in the seas.

Re: Questions regarding my strategies
 

Generally speaking, the early and mid game are the only times where hordes of troops will benefit you. Even if you pursue a land-denial strategy as you appear to outline in your post. Eventually, a skilled opponent will simply start fielding stuff that literally cannot be beaten by any size of mortal army. The most common of these tactics are the anti-personnel SC and the battlefield-wide damage enchantments. Once these strategies become available in the mid-late game, large groups of unsupported mortal armies actually become a liability.

As for your Dragon army: they would probably be pretty effective vs human troops, but in the grand scheme of things its a criminal waste of gems. A single large SC with a moon blade or a handful of properly protected mages casting Opposition or Control could defeat that army pretty easily.

Re: Questions regarding my strategies
 

That is why you support those hordes of units with powerful buffs and thugs. Overwhelming an enemy late game can be pretty devastating if done well.

Re: Questions regarding my strategies
 

How soon do you start building a second castle? It isn't too hard to conquer two provinces, the second not next to your capital, and have you scout start building a castle in the second one on turn 4, as MA Ulm. If you get lucky, you can have three or four castles by turn 16. Then you can churn out researcher-mages to get on to the magic race.

Read Baalz's guide to Marverni, posted about a week or so ago. It details very nicely what a magic-heavy nation can do in the endgame. Pythium can do that in addition to having strong military; Ulms usually have more trouble.

Re: Questions regarding my strategies
 

I always build my second fortress on turn 3 as MA Ulm to take advantage of Ulm's fortress production bonus. It also helps in defense as most of your units have map move 1. The third castle I place a little further away so to maximize the other two. My motto is: "no province without a fortress should have left over resources"; unless there is something I want to build there of course.

Re: Questions regarding my strategies
 

So you build a fort on the first province you conquer? Hm. Do you do that even if there are no resource-heavy provinces around you?

Oh, and I did all my tests without a combat pretender. I wanted to see how good expansion I could get out of Ulm without pretender's help.

Re: Questions regarding my strategies
 

If I'm very unlucky and the adjacent provinces to my capitol are barren wastelands, I would not build my second fortress so close. This is rarely the case though.

I have found out that getting that second fort up and running as fast as actually possible helps Ulm immensely with both expansion and research. I would even go as far and say that it is in fact necessary when Ulm against great players.

Good fortresses is one of the thing Ulm is good at so one should try to maximize that. Do not go for the cheapest fortress but rather the best mix of administration, cost, defense and build time. In Ulm's case that would be the citadel and to peg-castle. If placed correctly you will get great many resources and awesome defense, buying you time to get your slow troops into position if you are attacked.

Re: Questions regarding my strategies
 

I think the defense value is irrelevant - your enemy won't sit there sieging your second castle, they'll continue to raid your provinces or go right for the cap. I'm really not sure paying attention to the admin is worth it either - even the worst fort still unlocks the resources in the province itself and being cheaper and faster to build than those with admin, you can simply get more of them. More forts means more mages and even with the admin disparity, probably more troops overall too.

Re: Questions regarding my strategies
 

The thing with Ulm is that your capitol isn't that valuable. It won't matter what fortress the enemy goes for he won't be able to break any of them fast as they all got high defense.

Raiding provinces won't be so effective against Ulm either because when you got some fortresses up your troops and mages cost almost nothing in gold.

Citadel has admin 40 meaning that if you place it will it can pull lots of resources from adjacent provinces plus unlocking the resources in the province it is in. Compare that to building 800 gold fortresses with admin 5 on every province. Yes, much, much more gold is needed, and that gold you need to expand your territory.

Every fortress you build also has what I call a command sphere, extending 1 province in every direction. This is very important to Ulm who has such slow units. I always try to build the fortresses so that they overlap each others spheres shaping a defensive net and also sucking any resources in between; so no need for low admin forts. The fortresses also has enough defense to withstand one turns sieging, enough for the other fortresses with overlapping spheres to help out. This systems also makes raiding a nightmare for the enemy.

Thanks to the great admin you always have supplies for your troops when you steamroll your enemy slowly to death, erecting fortresses every second province.

As for enemy SC's and small thug teams they aren't such a biggie as they hardly scratch your fortresses. Yes they can lock them down but you have so many that such strategy is mostly a waste of time.

I've tested these tactics in several MP games (on the net and off) with great success.

Re: Questions regarding my strategies
 

Hm, thanks for input so far.


Concerning dom-kill of oceania;
In my game against them, I was using EA Ulm. I basically built a line of forts along the coast. Each of these had a temple and most of them had a priest or two preaching. I'm not sure how Dom-kill works, but I could basically only get enough priests to hold my own dominion.

I like to use a very productive dominion. Max growth and income almost always...


Regarding armies unbeatable by mortal troops... what if you just flat out avoid them and attack elsewhere? Basically swarm over whatever territory the unbeatable armies cannot protect? I don't think i've encountered any flat out unbeatable armies, but when a very strong army starts to invade I will try to "smother" the army by isolating it and building defense around it. Meanwhile, i'll be attacking as many opposing provinces per turn as possible. By my discretion, I may pillage things and destroy temples, labs and forts... has anyone successfully employed these sort of tactics in games with good players? Armies I typically avoid have things like lots of Living Statues, Ether Lords, spellcasters, and other summons. I usually have to make specialized armies to deal with such armies... or swarm them in huge numbers...




I also usually have -2 on the magic scale because I put the points elsewhere and it seems to help against enemy mages who invade my territory. Would it be good to go to -3 for defense? I think the -2 research bonus is a little too far. Other times I will go with +1 research scale to get the +1 research bonus...

About expansion... I usually hire mercenaries early. I try to maximize troop output and don't really build forts until I find a good location. Generally, i'll have several armies capable of beating independents without incurring high losses. I'll map out how I'm going to attack and I will attempt to obtain lands that would give me a minimum number of borders to defend. Then I build defense and forts there. Usually, I will be gaining at least 4 territories per turn by turn 10 and have the largest army... from there i just... keep up the advantage. I dunno if this is the best way, but works for me...

I like EA Ulm for their stealthy 2-speed troops. Archers + fodder from outside provinces early, other types later on to limit upkeep. I like to sneak them into enemy territory before attacking, attack as many provinces at once as possible, and basically cut off a big piece of territory at a key spot or chokepoint. Divide and conquer?

Stealthy armies also seem useful because they can sneak into castles to help defend or sneak out and stay alive and in a unit if the castle will fall. I think since they are stealthy and hide, it helps fool the opposition as well. The only problem is it seems that if you sneak them into a province on the turn the castle is being stormed, they won't help the defense?

As I said, I like to use massed troops... early on i often have supply trouble... later commanders will carry a bag of wine and sometimes a summer sword. (though i prefer a ranged weapon)

Also, wolves from werewolves don't cost any upkeep, right?

Re: Questions regarding my strategies
 

You don't need to worry about armies getting killed in castle storming. Just script them to retreat. Or script them to retreat and order 'break the siege'. I believe either way they will end up in another province.

Re: Questions regarding my strategies
 

Stealth / Land Denial strategies have been used in competitive games, yes. I've seen it most often with Pan since they can get a lot of punch out of those stealthy sacred centaurs. However, it is not commonly used.

No, you are still thinking in terms of armies. You are proposing to move around these "unbeatable armies" but the strategies I've listed to counter you are single units, not armies. It would be a simple matter (assuming your strategy was known ahead of time) for your enemy to deploy a handful of anti-personnel thugs across his border, or to have them wandering randomly inside his borders. How effective would your raiding be then? Or if he has access to a chasis with 2A so that he can Cloud Trap' onto your army, removing any possibility of escape?

Drain of any sort is an extremely risky choice in an MP game. While it may not hurt Ulm as badly as others, you will still be operating at a big research disadvantage compared to other nations who will surely take magic 1-3. The faster your enemies eclipse you in research the faster your armies will become obsolete.

My recommendation to you is to play a couple of test games and try out some of the common SC/thug builds. Play with the battlefield enchantments as well. I think that once you get a feel for them you'll see a lot more strategies open up for you.

Re: Questions regarding my strategies
 

Mass wave tactics, meet Master Enslave.

In a MP game I'm in I just watched an army that looked like it could steamroll anything in it's path.

It met a force consisting of some blockaders, some communion slaves and a pretender that was the communion master followed by a couple of master enslaves.

The steamroller is now going the other direction.

Re: Questions regarding my strategies
 

The most common newbie mistake is to ignore the power of magic(spells and gems).

Strategically, it has a lot of use. Invincible armies of troops can be destroyed outright with a single battlefield enchantment, but it is even the small spells that can turn important battles. A few mages casting Falling Fires allows them to kill far more troops than their gold cost would indicate.

Using gems wisely is also of primary importance. Always look at the number of troops killed (or saved) for your investment in gems. For example, a Sceptor of Authority will kill far more troops over its lifetime than Fire Sword for the same gem cost, but for triple the gems a Wand of Wild Fire will kill more than triple the troops. A Flame Storm will kill enough troops in five castings(total five gems) to put all to shame.

Research is way of more efficiently using your gems as higher level effects become better. While the late game requires powerful mages to get to these magics, Communions, boosters, and the summons are all ways to reach these powerful magics.

In general, your overall strategy should be based on what magic you are pursuing. For example, Fire nations are wise to invest in archers(Flaming Arrows) and Fever Fetishes (requires Nature and Fire).

Re: Questions regarding my strategies
 

There is something to be said for extreme aggro swarming in the MP early and mid game. It forces your opponent to switch from research and building their SCs and the like to simply trying to keep hold of enough land to keep their income. It's tricky though and it WILL get you killed in MP a lot of the time because while you ruin your opponent by throwing all your resources at them, you also worry people and are weak to attacks - by going right for the early game pressure on one opponent, you seriously risk your midgame position.

In a duel though,.. can be as effective as an elephant or bless rush.

Re: Questions regarding my strategies
 

Freespawn nations (such as LA R'lyeh and Ermor) can put swamping tactics to good use, as they have so much chaff that you can afford to attack every border province every turn, and don't care one fig whether all the guys they sent out get killed or not.

If your opponent puts somthing in their path, that's a bit of resources he's not using to otherwise hurt you. If he doesn't put something in their path, well... that's one lost province. And if he really sends something consequential away from the safety of his main armies or forts to deal with your chaff, you can then teleport something designed to deal with it right on top of him.

Re: Questions regarding my strategies
 

A common mistake overall (even late game) is to forget the importance of a mixed army of troops, mages, thugs and perhaps a SC. I often see people using a troop only army, maybe backed up with a few evocation horny mages, that are trying to deal with a single SC - and get slaugthered. Then focusing on their own SC to try to counter the other one, only to get killed by it. The result is usually that they resign after a couple of turns.

Re: Questions regarding my strategies
 

Adapting is key. If someone throws SCs, you toss in SC killing spells...if someone has tons of chaff, you toss in archers or big evokers.....if someone tosses in lots of mages, you use battlefield-destroying spells....the lists of tactics and potential counters is what makes this game so rich.

Re: Questions regarding my strategies
 

Yes, of course the main goal should be to adapt to every single encounter you have. But in the wild world of dominions things can change very, very fast. It may appear that the enemy builds only one or two types of units, or that his SC is vulnerable to poison and frost, but that might be very wrong with a good player. Suddenly you face and invisible army of shadows and ghosts backed up with a SC who is frost and poison resistant when your army is focused on defeating just the opposite.

It that and many similar situations it is good to not have adapted too much to what you think is right but instead on avoiding the worst case scenario. A dynamic army with a balance between flexibility and focus can do that.