Water queens may be way overpowered.
 

Water queens regenerate half their hitpoints OUT of water. Fully equipped, plus quickness, they can have over 31 defence. No elemental royalty can regenerate faster than a waterqueen, and only the fire kings, who can't regenerate, has a chance at hitting the waterqueen. The water queen can basically win against any royalty in or out of the water.

http://shup.com/Shup/38619/waterqueen-fire.PNG

Even though she had 50% fire resistance, the fatigue skyrocketed when the fire elementals were attacking. However, for some strange reason, the fatigue could not go above 190. Why is that? Is it because elementals can't die of fatigue?

Re: Water queens may be way overpowered.
 

Water queens aren't supposed to regen out of water and IIRC don't (except perhaps the queen of the lakes).

Re: Water queens may be way overpowered.
 

Oh, come on. They are two slots short when on land, and not particularly harder
to kill than any other good SC. Not with a squad tailored for that purpose.

As for killing it with a SC... I my current game I have a SC that would eat her
alive in two rounds. And that guy is a horrible _mistake_ that I inherited from
from my uncle.

And only one Water Queen do regenerates out of water. The other two drown.
If you give them an amulet of the fish, the air around them turns to water,
so they are still surrounded by water.

Re: Water queens may be way overpowered.
 

IMHO the water queens are the worst of all the elemental royalty. You have to waste a slot just to get on land, and the spells you get access to with W4 or whatever they have are unimpressive.

They're great underwater though.

Jazzepi

Re: Water queens may be way overpowered.
 

Ah, you're right. Only the queen of the lakes regenerates out of the water.

Re: Water queens may be way overpowered.
 

Lets focus on queen of the lakes then. Fire royalty pretty much suck as far as I've seen. In the game I'm in now, they just keep dieing. I don't think anyone has summoned them after the last time they died. Earth elementals can't compete one on one with the queen of the lakes since she has soooo much defence and sooo much regeneration OUT of the water.

I would expect the earth kings to be more powerful than queen of the lakes out of water.

WHY did the water queen not go over 190 fatigue? Someone please explain this.

Re: Water queens may be way overpowered.
 

Holy crap lets take her out of the game!

Re: Water queens may be way overpowered.
 

I personally think that quicken self and breath of winter are fantastic personal buff spells.

Re: Water queens may be way overpowered.
 

Those spells are fine, really, but the earth kings have summon earth power, invulnerability, AND they already regenerate. The air queens have mist form, and air shield as well as the ability to cloud trapeze and fly out of the box and shock immunity. The fire lords have ethereal for free, and come with a 13 AP fire shield. Admittedly, they're pretty bad compared to air and earth, but they really don't have to cast any buff spells so you can send them right into battle with two shields, and lots of army, and watch chaff get destroyed on their large AP fire shield. The one that comes with 1E can cast ironskin on himself.

The water queens are really only amazing when fighting underwater, IMO, and otherwise they're just bad versions of the other royalty. The other royalty come with better self buffs, or basically already have everything the queen does.

Jazzepi

Re: Water queens may be way overpowered.
 

High defense is one of the worst traits and SC can focus on. All you have to do is give an attack multiple attacks to take her down. Chaff + a middling SC could take down a 31 defense SC. Each attack beyond the first reduces defense by 2.

Boots of quickness, swords of quickness, and something like a stone bird destroy a unit's defense.

Jazzepi

Re: Water queens may be way overpowered.
 

Why did the water queen not go over 190 fatigue?

Re: Water queens may be way overpowered.
 

Fatigue is capped at 200. Any fatigue above 200 gets converted into damage.

Re: Water queens may be way overpowered.
 

The maximum fatigue that a unit can get is 200. Don't take this as offense, but you should really, really read your manual. From start to finish. All the questions that you asked lately could be answered by just looking in the manual.

Fire Kings are the worst elemental royalty - yes. The other stuff is without grounds and the usual fuss. I feel tempted to set up a test game where 1000 Markata win against a Water Queen, thus proving that Water Queens can NEVAR win a game.

Re: Water queens may be way overpowered.
 

Remember, the queen did not go above 190. I did not say 200. She only had 5 reinvigoration. Fatigue did not go below 190 until ALL the fire elementals died. Fatigue can go well beyond 200. Of course, units start taking damage, but fatigue is not *converted* to damage. You don't start taking damage from fatigue UNTIL you go above 200.


Add this to the equation:

-Twin Spear (Call Lesser Horror) in battle, not used though
-Charcoal Shield
-Amulate of Luck
-Starshine Skullcap
-Marble Armor
-Amulate of Resilience
-5 experience stars (+5 to defence and attack)
-YOU are the attacker. YOU retreat after 50 turns.

Re: Water queens may be way overpowered.
 

A unit decreases 5 fatigue every turn it does not attack (so when past 100, every turn). If it has reinvig 5 on top of that, it decreases that by 10. Hence, the fatigue is capped at 190 because every time it hits 200 and goes over, that's damage and the actual fatigue drops by 10.

This is not goddamn rocket science. Reading the manual and then observing the bloody mechanics in action would answer most of these questions right out and applying the knowledge gleaned from there would allow you to figure out the rest without trouble.

Re: Water queens may be way overpowered.
 

> Fatigue can go well beyond 200. Of course, units start taking damage, but fatigue is not *converted* to damage.

Are you playing another version of dom3 ? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Fat is converted to dmg and never exceeds 200. Each turn a unit lose 5 fat, and with reinvig 5 that puts you at 190.

Use something that hits her automatically. Give her a curse and a horror mark. Petrify her. Tangle Vine her. Earth Grip her.

There is plenty you can do.

Re: Water queens may be way overpowered.
 

What the hell? I swear I saw fatigue at numbers like 213, 222, etc. Musta been my imagination. I just did a test.

Ok, so we can assume that fatigue was rising by 10 and dropping by 10.

What about the fact that queen of the lake may be overpowered out of water?

Ok, but remember the reason I lost that battle is because my mages retreated after 50 turns. I think eventually a soul slay would have gotten through. *shrug*

Re: Water queens may be way overpowered.
 

In fact it is not a fact.

Re: Water queens may be way overpowered.
 

Most SC's are overpowered out of water.

Re: Water queens may be way overpowered.
 

If I can prove that an earth king fully equipped will lose vs a water queen fully equipped, will you change your mind about the water queen not being overpowered?

Edit: Better question, what would it take to prove the water queen is overpowered? What situation should the water queen, in a logical or thematic sense, lose?

Re: Water queens may be way overpowered.
 

You've already been told this is not the case and you've been told several ways how to counter it and what you can do. Just because you picked one SC to go toe to toe alone against the WQ does not mean the WQ is overpowered, it just means you're using the wrong tactics.

If you choose not to heed the advice given and keep repeating things so that thread only goes in circles, that's your option. I've got an option of dealing with that which involves a nice yellow lock marker appearing right next to the thread title.

Does that answer your question?

Re: Water queens may be way overpowered.
 

Edi, yes there's ways to counter anything that is overpowered. But if it's overpowered, there's a balance issue in the game. My goal with this discussion is to discuss if the water queen is overpowered or not and we can do some tests.

This discussion is not one that should be locked, it's very on topic and very relevant to dominions.

Re: Water queens may be way overpowered.
 

Argi, my friend and trusted ally.. noone except you seems to think them over-powered so far so that sort of ends the discussion. Noone can talk about this with you since most don't agree.

summary
all find WQ not overpowered --> no balance issue --> no problem

If you keep saying after every post of another person you still find it overpowered you will annoy Edi I fear (personally I think locking the thread won't be needed since I fear noone will need to post here anymore anyway)

Re: Water queens may be way overpowered.
 

Water Queens are good, but Air Queen are generally better. They fly fast, farther, AND they can cast Cloud Trapeze to teleport.
Earth Kings' innate abilities aren't as powerful as the other royalty's, but he's got twice as many hp as a water queen, and very nice protection. Not to mention the fact that the Earth king can cast Petrify at the Water Queen. Also, regeneration won't help against death, so soul slay, petrify, gifts from heaven etc which kill normal SCs also kill the water queens.

Re: Water queens may be way overpowered.
 

lol

Re: Water queens may be way overpowered.
 

Ok, I understand what you are saying endo. With enough mages, indeed 1-hit kill spells will eventually get through. However, the 50 turn limit makes it less gauranteed. In the battle with my mages vs the water queen, my mages retreated on turn 50.

I am prepared to do tests, why not discuss this seriously? What tests can I do that might prove or disprove that the queen is overpowered? We shouldn't just have opinions, lets (at least me) really test this.

Re: Water queens may be way overpowered.
 

There are ways to kill Water Queens. I killed 2 of them in 1 turn in a mp game 2 days ago. Best way to find out how it is done is through testing.

Not everyone posts all of their best tactics on the forums for their opponents to read.

Re: Water queens may be way overpowered.
 

Argitoth, I can see where your frustration is coming from. However, many of the replies that you have already received provide the clues for your test.

If I were going to call the elemental royalty of water imbalanced, then I would need to see it best each of the other royalties in their stated strengths.

Fire elemental royalty can clear chaff like no other. They also have access to some of the nastier evocations. While the lady of the lakes is hard to kill, she does not have access to the same battlefield sweep capacity that fire royalty has.

Earth elemental royalty can bring it's protection to pretty absurd levels with the most excellent earth buffs. They also have access to petrify, which allows them to be incredibly effective SC killers. If you could show an earth royalty losing to a water royalty above ground with that spell in play, you would be one step closer to convincing me about the imbalance issue.

The air elemental royalty may well not be able to stick it to the water royalty in a straight fight, but that is not their stated strength. The strength of air royalty lies in their INCREDIBLE tactical mobility. They are where you want them to be, and your opponent has near on no chance to anticipate their movement.

So to end this long winded reply, I would say that you need to show a water royalty losing to an earth royalty even when the earth player has the advantage in research and gear before I would call fowl on the lady of the lakes.

Well, that, or you could show proof that that watery tart is still throwing swords around.

Re: Water queens may be way overpowered.
 

FINALLY, a serious nomination for tests. Alright, I will do this test and possibly create a new thread to detail everything. I can't do it today, have to go to church then work on homework. Soon though. Talk to you later!

Re: Water queens may be way overpowered.
 

a high defence unit just shouldn't be attacked with one unit.. you attack them with loads of attacks

Agri: try this earth elemental with a stone bird, the nature helmet that gives the gore attack, 2 swords of quickness, an amulet of luck, a ring of regen things like that.. givin high number of attacks

then have him cast the buffs previously mentioned

or try him with petrify as mentioned above

Re: Water queens may be way overpowered.
 

Aezeal: I will do that, thanks!

Re: Water queens may be way overpowered.
 

That's not a good choice of gear. Twin Spear gives luck.

Re: Water queens may be way overpowered.
 

Thats no good cause if you were going to build an SC like that you'd want it to either have feet for Boots of Quickness, or at least 1 pick in water to cast Quicken Self.

At least I would I guess.

But I think you're arguing a moot point. Everyone knows Dominions isn't made to be a balanced game. Every nation is not necessarily on par with every other nation. Sure they may be close, but the only way to be 100% balanced is for every nation(elemental royalty http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif) to be the exact same. And no one really wants that do they?

Re: Water queens may be way overpowered.
 

ow and agri .. 5 stars for my elemental too then, and the the WQ is the attacker of course.

Re: Water queens may be way overpowered.
 

Water queens are not overpowered, indeed the elemental royalty as a whole is somewhat underpowered. I had a air queen recently kitted out with 50 gems worth of gear, so a 100 gem investment in total.

Killed by a 2S mind hunt. They only bothered doing 1 mind hunt because that was more than enough. 24 MR was no defence.

Elemental royalty are lucky if they last more than 2-3 months when you put them into battle against someone who knows how to kill them.

Re: Water queens may be way overpowered.
 

I think that just becouse your cheap fire mage spamming living fire lost against a heavily tailored WQ does not mean that WQ is overpowered. Only that your cheap mage was not well suited for that particular task.

Re: Water queens may be way overpowered.
 

The water queens are good, but not overpowered.

Argitoth if are curious about which SCs are considered the most powerful start a poll listing the most common SCs.

Here's a small list

Wraith Lord
Elemental Royals
Tartarian
Tarrasque
Ice ArchDemons
Fire ArchDemons
DemonLords
etc; etc; etc;


Or review results from the last SC Arena competition where many community members participated. Not a single entry used a water queen.

Re: Water queens may be way overpowered.
 

To NT Jedi:
Yes, and any Tartarian kind should ne reviewed individually. +manifold national ones...
And could you provide link on the said Arena? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif
I agree that Water Queen isn't among the better elemental royalty - even in SP I only used them to conquer seas.

Re: Water queens may be way overpowered.
 

I suggest that we create a water ritual that allows 'underwater teleportation'. Move from one underwater province to another. That should definitely help the Water Queen. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

Re: Water queens may be way overpowered.
 

Argitoth. That particular water queen can be easily killed by a fire mage
casting Heat from Hell, teamed with a fire immune bane lord (for example) who
does enough damage to get through the regeneration. By the way, she is not
particularly well equiped - one can do MUCH better.

But in general, many players rank Elemental Royalty like this:

Air Queens
Earth Kings
Water Queens
Fire Kings

While in general I agree with the above, in many cases, some of the lower rated
royalties are better suited to a task. But as a rule, to kill a SC, you tailor
an attack for him. Then your enemy teleports his counter, and probably win.
There is NOTHING that is unbeatble, except for Mist of Deception cast by a
defender who retreats on the next turn.

Re: Water queens may be way overpowered.
 

Even MoD + retreat is beatable, by assassination.

Re: Water queens may be way overpowered.
 

Blasphemy!