Monkeys cry for changes?
 

This is mainly a question to developers. I think that after Abysia and Ulm have been reworked, time for monkeys has come (I mainly mean Bandar Log and Patala but Kailasa as well in some aspects). The fact they are the only nation (Atlantis had some as people said but probably also needs some reworking) that has no victories in MP in all eras speaks for itself.
What I see in them...

Pros:
- Versatile magic (patala)
- Huge clam producing potential - they can produce both clams and hammers either with their summons (Bandar) or with initial mages
- Good summons and access to all magic but fire and death/blood (though the latter can be reached via spells derived from Lanka)
- Strong Astral (Bandar). Combined with clam producing potential and good summons looks very nice.
- Access to elephants (helps early on but is useless later)
- Decent sacreds, recruited everywhere (Bandar) however this is almost negated by weak priests

Cons:
- Very low MR. All monkeys have MR 8 which is abysimal. I can understand 9 but 8?... Does any else race in MA/LA have such MR? This can be partially countered by access to Antimagic but it is still very bad.
- Abysimal PD. I don't think that monkey PD is the worst one in the game (Giant PD is probably worse) but it is still very bad and can stop virtually nothing.
- Siege penalties of animals. I understand why a wolf or a hawk suffers a penalty during sieges but why does a skilled Bandar warrior? Bandar have no troops without "animal" tag.
- Guru and Rishi have mapmove 1 which means VERY low mobility even with astral
- Weak priests (level 1) which makes bless strategies almost useless
- Weak battle magic, weak magic versatility without summons (Bandar)
- Guru and Brahmin have morale 7(!!!). Bug? (found by Drake49)

So.. Don't you think these races cry for changes?

Re: Monkeys cry for changes?
 

I don't think Bandar Log or Patala are weak. I think most experienced players don't think they're weak.

If you are interested, search for posts by Lord_Bob, since _many_ of his posts were in his ridiculous and very long "monkeys CANNOT WIN" threads.

Re: Monkeys cry for changes?
 

MONKEE PD IS WAEK, AND YES CAN NEVAR WIN N TAHT IS Y U WILL LOOSE 2 ME LOL!!!!!!

Re: Monkeys cry for changes?
 

I've never played the monkey nations, but doesn't Astral imply Communion? Why aren't the monkeys throwing around Divine Bless? Do the priests not have Astral?

-Max

Re: Monkeys cry for changes?
 

And it is back! The already-debunked argument that doesn't care about facts to make a point. I did the unspeakable and won by Kailasa! And I had a grand time while doing so!

Re: Monkeys cry for changes?
 

Then probably I'm wrong. Actually I was speaking mainly about Bandar and Patala.

Eeeh.. Probably because their only priest is equal to the standard indy one in all aspects but costs 10 gold less and has 7 morale.

Re: Monkeys cry for changes?
 

And I actually meant Patala. I'm rather sleepy. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

Here are the graphs from that game, although they don't really give justice to showing how far ahead I was to the rest: http://valhalla.techno-mage.com/webs...game=oomermaid

If there's a nation that could maybe require an overhaul then I'd rather look at Jomon/Shinuyama. They didn't really look that strong to me. But that's just an impression that I got while playing against them, can't say anything until I played with them myself. The apes rather surprised me, too.

Re: Monkeys cry for changes?
 

The animal siege penalty thing is what needs overhauling since the monkeys have a hard time denting any walls.

Re: Monkeys cry for changes?
 

Maybe they should just be able to climb the walls? :-)

Re: Monkeys cry for changes?
 

Well... monkeys suck. Nuff said. Sorry if I did not get into the gist of this conversation. I just hate monkeys.

peace out

Re: Monkeys cry for changes?
 

Ich, I think you could win a game with nothing but hoburgs. Take this guy on in multiplayer at your own risk.

Re: Monkeys cry for changes?
 

Bandar Log as several good points going for it :
-recruitable everywhere sacreds : with enougth indep priests, you can attack with lots of them on turn one, or use less priests, decoys and hold & attack
-Their low level conjuration summons (low cost too) makes this nation a hich astral, earth, water and nature nation ; for a game wich is all about magic it should help a bit.
The only point on which I agree with Ano is the pitifull siege capacity. And the OH MY GOD THIS PD IS RUBISH !!!!

Re: Monkeys cry for changes?
 

I think Machaka needs help more than the monkey nations that have had plenty of attention. Machaka is looking seriously old and outdated, its a very unpopular nation in MP. In fact I think its largely forgot about.

Hopefully, Machaka will get its much overdue overall and we will get the EA Machaka nations and a LA nation? Plus plenty of new national spells please, just like the monkey nations who have tons.

Re: Monkeys cry for changes?
 

I fully agree Machaka is less powerfull than Bandar (never played Patala) : no specific spells, worse PD ( we should organize a PD deathmatch to know for sure), meh sacreds (capitol only "en plus"),and a far worse magic diversity.

OH !! I forgot your best mages die like flies from old age.(but you cab burn 120 points to "solve" the problem)

Ah, they've got spiders. Original and sometimes usefull (versus small elite groups)

Re: Monkeys cry for changes?
 

I like Machaka and think they are quite good. Their regular spiders combined with hoplites do wonders. They can start mass producing fetishes early (you may freely equip them on black sorcerers who don't die from them) for 3N3F with hammer. They are cheap and in the late game fire gems have a lot of uses.
And who said that they lack magic diversity? They have 4 open schools of magic which are all quite good.
They fear neither sacreds nor early sc's because spiders kill both so they can choose a good sleeping pretender.
One of the main problems of Machaka is upkeep. It is a big problem and should be thought about if you plan to play them.

Re: Monkeys cry for changes?
 

Sacreds of Bandar cost nothing upkeep wise, you can have lots of them and still recruit tons of mages.

And if all gems are good, astral ones have more uses, for items (luck and anti magic ones for the most commonly forged) and battle field enchantment (which will do wonder on your horde of sacreds)

Re: Monkeys cry for changes?
 

Bandar log are pathetic. At least Patala has useful combat mages; this is not true for the MA Bandar.
Their starting army is UTTER CRAP. And yes, its a seriuos handicap. I dont think you'll find a worse starting army in Dominions 3.
Their mages are sssssssssssssssssssssssslowwwwww.
Their PD sucks.
Their troops suck. They are either useless or cost too much for their prowess, and all of them are completely decimated by archers and bladewind because their best shield is (tadaaam!) buckler.
Their sacreds are very, very frail. Even with a strong bless they will still die en masse when exposed to arrows or combat spells.
Etc, etc. Of all nations, I'd rate the Bandar Log as the most pathetic - worse than even Machaka (which is mainly handicapped by the lack of access to astral - I think they need some national summon with astral magic).

Re: Monkeys cry for changes?
 

There are many many mages that are ssssssssslowwww. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif
Their PD doesn't suck harder (at least not sensibly much) than machaka's one.
In fact their sacreds are almost the only troops I do recruit, with some decoys and archers, they have the upkeep of a chaff unit.(dom 6+)
You don't seem to consider the 3E and 3W mages you can easily enroll(and they often have 4), with great moral and I think 2 strategic movement. I wonder if you use the golem summons with MA Agartha.
Their starting army is utter crap ? Okay, use it to patrol on turn one, recruit sacreds, mix, attack : you'll beat anything not being heavy cavalry.
I find spiders as being costly to enroll, costly to maintain, and not effective enougth in effectively killing something. With bandar you can have many more effective combat groups, raiding behind ennemy lines.
I think a water 9 bless, plus whatever you like or can afford greatly reduces the archer vulnerability, and can easily be achieved with neutral or better scales (I'm at work, so I can't check). You don't need a combat pretender with your sacreds, so why not an dormant/imprisoned one ?
But I agree with you : Machaka truly needs some love, be it summons or whatever pleases KO.

Re: Monkeys cry for changes?
 

>> There are many many mages that are ssssssssslowwww.
Yea, but many small weaknesses combined make a big weakness.
>> Their PD doesn't suck harder (at least not sensibly much) than machaka's one.
Ohkay, maybe. Still it sucks unbelievably hard.
>> You don't seem to consider the 3E and 3W mages you can easily enroll(and they often have 4), with great moral and I think 2 strategic movement.
For a price of 25 nature, its not so easy. Still its great to have them, of course.
>> I find spiders as being costly to enroll, costly to maintain, and not effective enougth in effectively killing something. With bandar you can have many more effective combat groups, raiding behind ennemy lines.
You will be the one who's raided most of the time. And spiders are quite good actually, I've used them. As machaka, I held my ground against Ermor and Pangaea, attacking me from opposite sides, machaka is quite solid.
>> I think a water 9 bless, plus whatever you like or can afford greatly reduces the archer vulnerability
You're losing credibility here. How does defense help against missile fire?

Re: Monkeys cry for changes?
 

Machaka has very powerful battle magic and fetish factory. I don`t think they so weak.

Re: Monkeys cry for changes?
 

Water bless means the sacreds reach the enemy faster and kill them faster, and after they rout get to the archers faster. It doesn't protect from the arrows, but the archers won't get to fire as much.

Re: Monkeys cry for changes?
 

Alas, white ones aren't jaguars who can indeed owerwhelm chaff quickly and with little casualties, when blessed with W9.

Re: Monkeys cry for changes?
 

I tested them in a quite long game, and chaff gets crushed by W9, F4, N4. True they tire quickly, but they are easily replaced.
Edit : forgot to admit morale 7 on many commanders is a pain in the but. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...es/biggrin.gif

All in all it is not my favored faction, but I wouldn't rank them the lowest position, because of recruitable everywhere sacreds, which makes for pretty efficient early games(I've reached astonishing rates with them, as with any other sacred oriented faction)on which you can capitalize, and efficient magic, even if they are crippled by somewhat heavy flaws.
In fact it is hard to say which is the worse, but personally I hate the animal tag, for the reasons listed above and the dreaded animal awe.

Re: Monkeys cry for changes?
 

Machaka is okay, but having the ultimate worse province defense is definitely noticeable and painful for large maps.

Re: Monkeys cry for changes?
 

Markata have a morale of 7. In your dominion it gets bumped to eight, which is enought that the little cowards MIGHT make a morale roll. In enemy Dominion, they have a morale of 6. Six.

I ran three fights with 5 Heavy Infantry and an Independent commander against 10 Monkey PD in enemy dominion. The Monkey PD lost every fight. 2 total Heavy Infantry killed in all the fights.

I then ran three fights with 5 Heavy Infantry and an Independent commander against 20 Monkey PD in enemy dominion. The Monkey PD did win. But in one of the fights the Melee Markata had broken, and they are half the PD, so auto-route was looming.

It seems pretty obvious that 10 Heavy Infantry and an Independent commander could easily take 20 PD. And that is absurd.

Even giant PD would probably win that fight. They do have 10 militia. Weak units, but they would be able to break through the enemy armour and kill them.

Re: Monkeys cry for changes?
 

I agree. They take a little more subtlety to play than the average nation, but with elephants, strong astral and very strong non-unique summons they've got obvious good options for early, middle and late game. With a little bit of cleverness/luck they've got a bunch more options from awesome blood summons to recruitable/easily summonable national thug chasises.

Re: Monkeys cry for changes?
 

I agree with Baalz. Blood summons is a key.

Re: Monkeys cry for changes?
 

I'd hardly call it a key.

Additional asset after those astral magicks, elephants and summons is more like it.

Of course you could take the KB route, but it's hardly, erm, competitive.

Though, siege penalty hurts. But it just means some trading for siege bonus items will be necessary. I hope.

Re: Monkeys cry for changes?
 

Of course elephants and astral magic give a good start, but the problems begin already at the end of the second year. At this moment there are not ehough gems for good summons. But in case of the right development and pretender one is able to summon the first Dakini

Re: Monkeys cry for changes?
 

If you want to reach Blood6 within 20 first turns with what essentially is not a blood nation I would claim you're not exactly playing to your strengths.

But, having not played Bandars much apart from couple of duels, I can't comment with much authority. I'll have to get back to this after some time with next megagame where I'm playing them.

Re: Monkeys cry for changes?
 

It will be nice to hear your opinion in a month or two;-)

Re: Monkeys cry for changes?
 

Baalz.. I will still say that without the ever mentioned (of course the idea is GREAT!!) monkey-troll crossbreeds in PD(which fits nicely with your blood strat) monkeys will NEVER ever be able to stand against a rush of triple blessedjaguar warrior

Re: Monkeys cry for changes?
 

Monkeys cry for changes? Maybe their morale should be reduced to reflect that. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/frown.gif

Re: Monkeys cry for changes?
 

What I don't understand is Brahmin being only holy 1. In other nations priests from a sacred caste get higher level. Slow mages hurt, but don't seem SO illogical..

Re: Monkeys cry for changes?
 

Monkey pd makes me cry along with the monkeys.

I do agree with OP.

However....


OP said the monkeys are the only ones with no wins in all three eras and that is not correct, Arco also has no wins.

Also, doesn't Lanka have the same pd? pretty much?