Manifestation is overpowerd.
 

Manifestation is overpowered for one reason and one reason only: Manifestations have a chance of attacking the commander regardless of how many units the commander is surrounded by. I just did a bunch of tests. Nothing so far gauranteed safety from Manifestation because the commander can be killed in one hit (I'm talking about mages of course). I think Manifestations should be set to "attack closest" to balance it out.

What do you others think?

Re: Manifestation is overpowerd.
 

is manifestation the ritual that has a 50% chance of attacking a random commander in a province, otherwise it turns on the caster? it also is more likely to hit horror marked commanders.

Re: Manifestation is overpowerd.
 

It's 50% ***PER*** commander. If you cast manifestation on a province with 10 commanders, that means 10 50% checks. I've never had a problem with getting attacked by my own manifestation. Getting attacked by your own manifestation or not, it's still too deadly.

Re: Manifestation is overpowerd.
 

It's rather like other assassination methods that way, and one counter is stacking with non-vital targets (scouts, indy commanders, etc), no?

Re: Manifestation is overpowerd.
 

Earth attack and disease demon are also fairly brutal depending on the circumstances. I don't think manifestation is any better.

Re: Manifestation is overpowerd.
 

You're only saying that because you didn't do any tests. You're going on basic assumptions of Dominions. I can say that protecting against an earth attack is very easy and manifestation is totally different.

Re: Manifestation is overpowerd.
 

I've had my manifester attacked by his manifestation.

You want to know what garuntees safety against it? Same thing as against any other assasian spell- its actually the easiest to defend against, to be honest.

Re: Manifestation is overpowerd.
 

sum1lost: it's easist do defend against an assassination? that statement confuses me for more reasons than one. What are you trying to say?

Re: Manifestation is overpowerd.
 

"Out of the assassination spells, Manifestation is the easiest to defend against" I'd wager.

Re: Manifestation is overpowerd.
 

So... where are the results of your testing?

Re: Manifestation is overpowerd.
 

Once again, another one who responds to this thread not having done any tests.

Do your own. At first you might think your strategy for defending against a manifestation is working. Keep testing it and the manifestation will eventually kill the mage bypassing any guards or summons.

Now if you want to go over the top with a powerful mage casting huge amounts of summons like living fire more than once or having twice as many guards etc, then I don't think the manifestation will be able to get to the commander. However, those mages aren't your every-day recruits.

Re: Manifestation is overpowerd.
 

Really, I'm getting tired of debating over these kinds of issues. I won't be playing Dominions for much longer, just finishing up a few games that will end soon.

Good riddance.

Edit: If people would just do some tests before making claims, these debates would go a lot better. You know? I spend a few hours testing things sometimes and then some of you want to come outa nowhere and say "WELL, I think you are wrong because I know everything about dominions." Seriously...

Re: Manifestation is overpowerd.
 

If someone said, "Well, I just did some tests and here's where you're wrong." that would be music to my ears.

...and yes I'm going to triple post. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/yawn.gif

Re: Manifestation is overpowerd.
 

Mostly Argitoth is just trying to prove something to himself, and he is suceeding.

Well, I HAVE done testing on Manifestation, and the results show that Manifestation is much more powerfull than the other two assasination spells.

Manifestation is pretty much a Thug, almost an SC because it has fear. Fortunately, it won't be fighting whole armies, so it might as well be an SC.

Infernal Disease will probably lose to a single Fiend of Darkness. Two Fiends might kill it in the first round, before the Disease Demon can act. Maybe not.

Earth Attack elemental will kill one Fiend... as it should. But five would almost, or would, knock it down to Size 5 in one round. It has to win very quickly against them, because they are doing huge damage. Unfortunately, Fiend's have a defence of 13, so the elemental is almost certainly toast. Against five Fiends of Darkness, which is a really strong bodyguard. Also, the elemental can't fly. Against creatures that can cast Gift from Heaven, you can use an anti-assasination+combat script. <Summon Earth Power><Gifts><Gifts>.. ect. If you position the mage correctly, you can point-blank the elemental from 1 to 3 squares away. And that is how I discovered that Gifts from Heaven CAN target the same square. One turn, elemental Size 6 and ready to SMASH. A casting of Gifts later, and the Earth Elemental is now Size 3, with the loss of Damage and increased action point cost of trampling that this entails. Shortly afterwards, it tends to die.

Can't use Gifts against Ashen Angel easily because it is either all the way across the screen, or it has FLOWN at you and cut you in half with it's sword. Exactly positioned bodyguards might make it work... or you miss and kill all guards and then route and die.

It was not very funny watching five Fiend's of Darkness attack an Ashen Angel for five rounds without even really hurting it. And Fiend's bypass the Angel's etheriality. Not good enough. The Ashen Angel wasn't even actually being HURT by the battle. Life for Life, or Dust to Dust is about the only way to kill it.

Re: Manifestation is overpowerd.
 

Owerpowered?

A spell that need 4 valueable gems to kill 1 (one) random commander with the drawback that it may just kill my own mage or kill a scout again and again?

Hell isn't there anything else you can do with your death gems and your casting 5D(!) Mage than using it for killing 1 unit?

Sure its usefull in some circumstances but not more.

Re: Manifestation is overpowerd.
 

I think I got this wrong, and sum1lost actually meant "Manifestation is just as easy to defend against as any other assassination spell", meaning that having 20 scouts to 10 mages is enough to essentially protect them. And that's much cheaper than giving mages summoned flying bodyguards.


Argitoth - you might be right in that Manifestation is more powerful than other assassinations, but they are useful against teleporters and such, not against armies with decoy commanders, and that's what makes them situational.

Re: Manifestation is overpowerd.
 

This is exactly what I found when I used it a few times. It is a fairly reliable spell in that it usually kills a commander (where as Earth attack did not always succeed). But it was expensive - 4 precious death gems rather than two a penny earth gems http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif - and you needed an otherwise useful high death caster to do it.

And if you enemy has much about him you usually kill a scout or indie commander instead of that vital mage. Making this spell not very cost effective.

Re: Manifestation is overpowerd.
 

Calmon: Did you read my first post?
Endoperez: You're not in the game I'm playing where I have 30 mages in one army and each mage is absolutely precious and has items. When you're generating 40 death gems a turn without any global enchantments, 4 death gems is not much. BTW, I am playing C'tis and have the greatest capability to cast Manifestation. However, it's a spell I would officially ban from the game because of how it can kill commanders bypassing any guards or summons. I'd ban it, but I'm about ready to stop that game in a few more turns.

I love Earth Attacks, bring them on! I love to see my enemy wasting earth gems (not really though, it's only 2 earth gems when you're making 25+ a turn). You can defend against earth attack very easily. Each of my 30+ mages are guarded by summons and large recruits and scripted to cast certain spells. All of them have a chance of dieing from a manifestation though.

Read my first post, my solution is simple, set manifestation to attack closest.

Re: Manifestation is overpowerd.
 

Manifestation is one of the rare things allowing to succeed to take a defended province/fort in endgame (imagining manifestation go through the domes).

At a stage of the game where battles are win by the defender if his good casters are alive and with gems, the few good spells able to kill key ennemy mages in magic phase are a necessity.

Actually I'd like to see it nerfed only if the whole endgame magic is redone. With the actual system I'd rather like to see a manifestation equivalent added in each path.

Re: Manifestation is overpowerd.
 

I read your first post

"Manifestation is overpowered for one reason and one reason only: Manifestations have a chance of attacking the commander regardless of how many units the commander is surrounded by."

And i wrote that its not.

Why should i argue with the detail that manifestation may attack the commander regardless of his guards if i find the commander killing spells by themself very situational and NOT overpowered?

Re: Manifestation is overpowerd.
 

I'd rather ban Argitoth from here http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif


But to be on topic - I would be happy with removing all assassinations from the game. It is really just annoyance with current game mechanics. That is random and really luck dependant. And it brings a huge load of frustration sometimes , when a commander with retreat order gets attacked that way or some communion master with strange script. And manifestation is one really ugly assasination spell. I have been attacked by it several times.

Re: Manifestation is overpowerd.
 

Won't have to, I'm leaving soon, as I've already mentioned.

Re: Manifestation is overpowerd.
 

Argitoth, you have no place at all whining about other people not doing tests. You seem to be the only one who feels that it is overpowered and you claim to have tested this. So let us see the test results, because the burden of proof is on you to back up your claim.

Re: Manifestation is overpowerd.
 

For me, the most frequent use of assessination spells is to assessinate the one or two commanders of a small raiding party. That way you can stop the nuissance in its tracks with only a small investment. Manifestation is very risky in this situation (as in: not worth the risk) due to the chance of attacking the caster if it doesn't find a suitable target. Hence, Manifestation is probably the assessination spell I use the least.

This doesn't mean that the spell is useless, far from it. It certainly has its place in those moments you want to target the opposing army with a barrage of assessinations in anticipation of a decisive clash. It might very well be that you're right and that it's the most difficult assessination spell to defend against, but I feel that this is more than balanced with the fact you can only safely use it against rather large concentrations of commanders. In conclusion I'd say this spell is siutationally strong, and as such nicely balanced.

Re: Manifestation is overpowerd.
 

Why would proof all of a sudden change your mind that Manifestation is overpowered or not? Bottom line is that it's virtually impossible to gaurantee protection against Manifestation. Those are my test results. Now it's your job to either say why it is not overpowered OR agree with me. Let me list a few tests I did from the top of my head

-Casting living fire once
-Bottle of water
-Just man's cross, eye of aiming, set to cast Swarm and Fire
-Two Catoblepes as guards
-A tartarian as a guard
-5 wyverns as guards
-5 C'tis chariots as guards
-5 wights as guards + set to cast Dust to Dust (will kill the wights if you're unlucky)
-5 wights as guards + Just Man's Cross (not as bad with wight guards)

Everything in this list works ***SOMETIMES*** It depends on if your guards/summons are lucky and if the manifestation doesn't bypass all guards/summons

Re: Manifestation is overpowerd.
 

Seems like it has great balance to me. It can be countered with commander chaff, it's risky against small numbers of enemy commanders so you can't use it so much to root out raiding thugs etc, it has a high casting requirement considering it's a spell that needs to be spammed to be really painful,.. and so on. Yet it is very powerful in the right situation.

Re: Manifestation is overpowerd.
 

You know what, let me do one more test. If manifestation can be killed 9/10 times with a ring of warning + double the guards, I definitely won't think Manifestation is overpowered... gonna do the test now.

-8 Wyverns are guards: Manifestation bypasses guards 1st time
-8 Scropion beasts: Couldn't hit the Manifestation. Retreated due to fear 1st time.
-10 Wights: Manifestation bypassed guards 3rd time.

Re: Manifestation is overpowerd.
 

IMO, this attitude right here is the source of much of your frustration with the game.

This isn't chess. NOTHING should be guaranteed. Every tactic has a counter, every counter has a counter, and none of them should work 100% of the time.

Re: Manifestation is overpowerd.
 

Bottle of water = immunity to earth attacks. There are things that do work 100% of the time.


Just did the test: worked 18 times in a row. Commander retreated due to water elemental getting hit too hard. The water elemental definitely would have won the battle.

Re: Manifestation is overpowerd.
 

so because there isn't a way to immune, it's overpowered ?

Re: Manifestation is overpowerd.
 

EXACTLY. Anything in which it is impossible to be immune is overpowered.

Remember my water queen thread? My aegis shield thread? What other debates did I start? Those were all based on precicely this point.

Re: Manifestation is overpowerd.
 

Well, just to make it absolutely clear:

<font color="red">NO GUARANTEE OF IMMUNITY = WAD. Working as designed. Working PRECISELY as it should be</font>

There is no guarantee, there is not supposed to be one. You do not have a point!

Re: Manifestation is overpowerd.
 

You've a really simple view of some things.

Following your logic a spell which just win you the complete game is overpowered. Regardless it cost 1 gem or 1.000.000!

Re: Manifestation is overpowerd.
 

Anyway, I'm no longer interested in trying to convince people that Manifestation is overpowered. It was fun while it lasted. This is definitely my last thread I'm going to create before I leave.

Re: Manifestation is overpowerd.
 

about time...

Re: Manifestation is overpowerd.
 

Okay, I tested this. Manifestation is indeed an awesome spell, and it had a high kill rate on the AI commanders. Frequently it bypassed the guards, and even when it did tangle with the guards (it always went for Jotun guards over Gygjas, and Summon Imps worked too) it still beat them and killed the mage. But guards often did work as blockers. Also, mages who could respond with skelly spam seemed to come out fine. So, I don't agree that there's no protection from Manifestation, although obviously if you push your luck and stick around a province where someone is spamming Manifestation you're going to get unlucky sooner or later.

-Max

Re: Manifestation is overpowerd.
 

Physical damage is overpowered?

Re: Manifestation is overpowerd.
 

Thank god.

Jazzepi

Re: Manifestation is overpowerd.
 

So, that would be virtually Dom3 the entire game then? Also perhaps 70% of all strategy games?

Don't you think being immune to be attacked would be overpowered? I mean what would be the point in anyone playing if that was the case?

In Dominions you cannot get too attached to any unit, you after be prepared to suffer casualties including losing your favourite SC, thug, mage, summon or whatever.

Finally, just in case anyone is in doubt manifestation is probably the least useful of the various assassination spells. Its in no way overpowered.

Re: Manifestation is overpowerd.
 

Since Manifestation has a non-zero chance of targeting the D5 mage casting the spell, and it's "impossible for him to be immune" to his own Ashen Angel, this logic implies that Manifestation is overly nerfed and useless because it could wipe out every D5 mage that casts it in a single turn and there's NO WAY TO PROTECT THEM. In fact, most of the game is "overpowered" because Dominions goes out of its way (by using open-ended dice) to ensure that nothing is ever a sure bet. A slinger can kill a Tartarian with one sling stone if he happens to roll 200 damage.

In probabilistic war games, as opposed to chess, good tactics mean tilting the probabilities in your favor and recovering when the dice go bad. Vs. Manifestation, this means either using decoys, using guards and/or skelly spam, scripting "Vortex of Returning" so the angel can't hit you, or decking your mage out as an SC so he can kill the Ashen Angel (mostly this happens when you're using the Tartarian chains, which summon occasional Ashen Angels to kill you).

-Max

Re: Manifestation is overpowerd.
 

Manifestation is powerful. I like it this way. It's one of the very few things
that can help an attacker against a well-entrenched, well-scripted late game army.
In my last game it was used against me quite a bit. The first time it hit, it was
pretty bad - out of SCs and combat mages, it managed to nail my cook. An enchanter
with a summer sword, a wine bag and a cauldron... he did not stand a chance, and
there were some hungry, angry giants in result.

But after that, the multiple manifestations did not do much. They hit my SCs
(no contest), freshly summoned teleistic animates (trade of gems) or air mages
(mistform + orb of lightning wins every time) Now I completely agree that
assassination spells can ruin your day when they interfere with important casters'
duties before a major battle. But that is the whole point. Working as designed.

Re: Manifestation is overpowerd.
 

This seems like its turning into one of those "It should all be math" vs. "there should be some element of luck" debates about strategy games in general. I think the devs and the long-time players have come down pretty firmly on the "element of luck" side for dominions.

Re: Manifestation is overpowerd.
 

Good.

Re: Manifestation is overpowerd.
 

Please don't feed the trolls. Even the ones claiming they'll not be trolling again.

And, because this thread definitely needs it...

Monkey PD is like kryptonite, nobody can win with it regardless of anything else they have. Even ninjas couldn't win with monkey PD. Even robot ninjas. Even robot ninja tartarians who wished for power. And a pony. Monkey PD is that bad.

Re: Manifestation is overpowerd.
 

Baaltz... I'm sorry to say this, but you are trolling now. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

One fool claimed that crappy PD is the only thing that makes monkeys lose. Now you like this 'monkey PD' line so much it makes you automatically disregard anything with 'monkey' and 'weak' in one sentence. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Re: Manifestation is overpowerd.
 

Markatas are overpowered. They really ought to be nerfed. In fact, I think I'll suggest this in beta forum right now. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...ies/tongue.gif

Re: Manifestation is overpowerd.
 

I for one, will be sad to see Argitoth go. While I disagreed with basically everything he said, who else will make these ranting threads when he is gone? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

Re: Manifestation is overpowerd.
 

Argitoh is overpowered, perhaps there should be a 50% chance each of his posts are sent to his own email instead.

Can someone fix this plz, Kthx.

Re: Manifestation is overpowerd.
 

Manifestation is hardly overpowered. It is but one of the very lethal tools at the disposal of a player with high research, d mages, and d gems.

Ghost Riders, Leprosy, Black Death, Manifestation, Banelords, Wraithlords, Legion of Wights, Demi Lich, Tartarians, ghosts and even, properly used, the undead elephants, can be very effective in destroying an opponent.

Death magic is one of the two most powerful magic paths. But to single out 1 spell and call it overpowered? Impossible. Black Death can depopulate your capital by 50 percent for the small price of a few gems.

Leprosy can disease your entire army, and with penetration bonuses, your mages as well.

Banelords early in the game can be near unstoppable, and are a force the entire game.

Ghost riders can beat almost any pd, for the price of 5 d gems.

Manifestation is a good spell, but hardly overpowered. It is not even in the top 5 of the most powerful spells in its line of magic. If a player could only keep 5 d spells in a mp game, I am fairly certain these 5 would rank ahead of manifestation on most lists:

1. tartarians
2. Banelords
3. Lich
4. Ghost riders
5. Leprosy

And to my limited way of thinking, as powerful as the line of d magic is, it is still second to Astral Magic, where a host of spells are game defining.

I really could not name 1 spell that by itself was overpowered, unless it was a global. If I had to name one nonglobal, it likely would be mind hunt. And I do not think even that is overpowered, but I think it is too cheap to cast at 2 s gems.

Re: Manifestation is overpowerd.
 

I also have to point out that blood is a late game powerhouse to, though much fewer people leverage it properly. The reason is because a good late game death gem income is 30 gems per turn (yeah you can get more, I'm just saying the ballpark you "usually" have to play with). A good late game blood income is 300 slaves per turn. Is a disease demon better that an ashen angel? Probably not. Are 10 disease demons better than one (potentially backfiring) casting of manifestation? Hoard from hell can be even more effective than ghost riders in certain situations and is available much sooner and more easily castable (assuming a good blood income)...and if you want something more analogous to ghost riders there is send horrors, and heck that one even comes in a much more accessible lesser form which still does a good job clearing PD.

As far as overpowered unresistable spells how about the only two truly unresistable spells: go to hell. Only marginally more resistable and castable by very cheap mages: leech. With an AOE 1, high, AN damage leech spam is truly fiendish against elite troops, and it cares neither for your antimagic nor your armies of lead.

I'd put late game blood - properly leveraged, on the same level as astral and death.