OT: We Are All Now Criminals Under The Law
 

Oh this is not good. I thought we lived in a nation that supported and honored freedom, not twisted it about in ways to be used against people. While what this women caused this teen to do is beyond sickening, this case is setting a precedence that could affect all of us far into the future.

Re: OT: We Are All Now Criminals Under The Law
 

Well, we've all been terrorists for a while now.

See, with the way terrorist has been legally defined, you're a terrorist or a terrorist organization if you help commit a terrorist act, give stuff to, buy stuff from, or sell stuff to a terrorist or a terrorist organization.

So a legitimate terrorist buys gas at the local gas station, a member of a gas station chain. That makes the gas station, and by extension, the entire chain, a terrorist organization. By extension, everyone who buys gas from that chain becomes a terrorist or part of a terrorist organization... which means anyone all those people buy stuff from... et infinity.

Re: OT: We Are All Now Criminals Under The Law
 

I am usually careful signing up for sites. Usually I use my Hotmail account so spam from them doesn't bother me. Sometimes I want to use the site but for some reason or the other I don't care to give too much info about myself. In these rare cases I might sign up as username "not interested" or "forget it". If I do get spam from them, and the likelyhood is higher since I don't particularly trust them, I'll at least know it was them.

I have no interest in community sites like webspace....myspace, whatever, and I'm not the sort to bother with aliases. I just use Randallw. It's who I am and I'm not flippant enough to use wacky usernames.

Re: OT: We Are All Now Criminals Under The Law
 

Gas Stations and Oil Companies often behave more like cartels than businesses...

Re: OT: We Are All Now Criminals Under The Law
 

Oh, goody, now we can do whatever we want, because if we're already criminals, what more do we have to lose? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/laugh.gif

Re: OT: We Are All Now Criminals Under The Law
 

I can understand the slippery slope theory, but I really think it's because of the circumstances surrounding what this woman did to a 13 year old girl, who eventually hung herself because of it, is the only reason they are going after her. This is one area where the law needs to catch up with technology and since it hasn't yet, they had to find a law they could charge her under. If it wasn't on the computer what she did would be considered stalking, harrassment and child enticement.

Re: OT: We Are All Now Criminals Under The Law
 

Had the prosecution done their job, they would've nailed her on all of that as in most cases, the law doesn't define the medium used-- merely define the act of doing so as the crime.

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True, I think it was a failure of the local law enforcement. I think the fact that the parents aren't letting this rest forced people higher up to get involved and that's why it's a federal case now.

Re: OT: We Are All Now Criminals Under The Law
 

To quote something I've seen plenty of places, "Where are we going and why are we in this handbasket?"

Re: OT: We Are All Now Criminals Under The Law
 

Stalking, harassment, child enticement, yes...but, if you look at it, nobody really "causes" a suicide. Suicidal people are, in a lot of ways, ticking time bombs. If you don't defuse them, they eventually blow up.

While we're talking "everybody's a criminal," did you ever accept cash from somebody and not report it? Yup, the IRS wants to know about it anyway, even if it was a $10 bill. Ever bought something off of a friend and didn't report it? Guess what? Same thing.

Re: OT: We Are All Now Criminals Under The Law
 

That's the issue at hand, she caused a suicide which in itself is only a crime committed by the person committing suicide. However, the mental anguish and criminality of the acts leading up to that end event are the actual crimes.

Providing a false name to a subsidiary of News Corp, imo, doesn't make a crime. Now if it's to local/state/federal authorities, then yes. In fact, cyberbulling itself would already be covered under existing laws dealing with mail and wire crimes.

Re: OT: We Are All Now Criminals Under The Law
 

While I agree with you that the only person who can "cause" a suicide is the person who takes their own life, an adult should know better than to torture and play with the emotions and mental state of a 13 year old girl. That's such a horrible age to be going through where everything seems magnified and you're going through all sorts of emotions for the first time that you don't really know how to handle. Everything that happens to you at that age seems like the end of the world.

I also think that our current laws should be enforced and should cover these issues..but the local law enforcement there swore there was nothing they had on their books that they could charge her with and have stick. I think they said part of the problem comes down to jurisdiction because technically the crime is wherever the server is located and not where the people are located. So then it is a multi-state issue....which got the feds involved....which leads to what can they charge her with on a federal level...etc.

Re: OT: We Are All Now Criminals Under The Law
 

I would have charged her with conspiracy to commit murder. The intent was to get the girl to kill herself, and the women made comments to that effect over her communications on that despicable myspace network.

I also believe that myspace is tacitly responsible for allowing this kind of harrassment to go through their system unabated. If it is against their policy, then they are responsible for enforcing said policy.

As for this use of illegal access to a secure server crap, well that one will be for the Supreme Court to decided. I can almost guarantee you that that is where this issue will ultimately end up.

Re: OT: We Are All Now Criminals Under The Law
 

They can't read every message that goes through MySpace, Atrocities.

Re: OT: We Are All Now Criminals Under The Law
 

Maybe we should outlaw the internet. There, another useless thing for the politicians to do! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/Sick.gif That would be their answer, the "EASY WAY OUT" instead of actually addressing the problem.

AT, if they read every message, there would some liberal group crying foul about privacy. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...s/rolleyes.gif Again, soooooo much concern about privacy and NONE about lives!

Re: OT: We Are All Now Criminals Under The Law
 

Everyone dies. People do mean things to other people. Ends don't justify means - there are consequences, especially in a legal system where precedent becomes law.

Trying to illegalize everything bad that happens is ignorant, lazy, destructive thinking.

Re: OT: We Are All Now Criminals Under The Law
 

I'm sorry, but this is incorrect. If someone is feeling somewhat suicidal, but not enough to go through with any form of self-harm, then along comes this person who probably meant a lot to this girl (even if 'he' shouldn't have), insinuates 'himself' into her life, then intentionally crushes her, intending to inflict as much emotional pain as possible upon her, then yes, that can "cause" her to commit suicide where she might not have otherwise.

In my opinion, this was murder, premeditated murder. She knew exactly what sort of torture she was inflicting on this child, and while it wouldn't cause everyone to kill themselves over it, it was a foreseeable consequence, and this ***** should be locked away for the rest of her life.

Re: OT: We Are All Now Criminals Under The Law
 

Saying myspace is responsible for the messages sent by its users is like saying that since a rock fell from space and hit my car the FAA/Norad/Airforce/Nasa is responsible for repairs.

It just ends up leading to frivolous lawsuits.

And enforcement would end up bankrupting many sites on the net or leading to the closure of public communities on the web.

Conspiracy to commit murder wouldn't stick since the target committed suicide. You might be able to play with assisted suicide laws. But in reality, it's the method used to obtain the effect that is illegal.

Cyberbullying easily falls into Hazing laws.

Re: OT: We Are All Now Criminals Under The Law
 

So are you saying that if I grabbed someone, stuck them in a tiny dark room for 10 years, and gave them a loaded gun which they then proceeded to shoot themselves with, that wouldn't be classified as murder, even though I would have been manifestly the cause of their death?

I know it's an overblown example, but I think it gets the idea across.

Re: OT: We Are All Now Criminals Under The Law
 

That's a terrible example. In fact, that's even radically different. I'm not even going to argue with you on either point because comparing messaging somebody on MySpace to locking somebody in a room for ten years with a gun is borderline insane.

Re: OT: We Are All Now Criminals Under The Law
 

No of course not, but they can however run each message through a filtering program that is set up to detect key words and phrases. If the US Government can do it looking for terrorist activity, then I am sure MySpace can too. And besides, you all hate FOX News, and they are both owned by the same parent company so I would suspect that being sued would come as a welcome happenstance to you all.

Re: OT: We Are All Now Criminals Under The Law
 

Well if the FAA/Norad/Airforce/Nasa are responsible for putting that rock into space in the first place then ya, they are responsible for it when it comes back home to roost.

Your analogy is, while valid, is kinda misleading. If your going to compare holding myspace responsible for the abuse it uses can levy against each other then you should compare it to people suing the fast food industry for making them fat. Didn't work out to well the first go around, but then again when it was tobacco being sued it took years before those bastards had to pay up. Give it time, some slimy trial lawyer who has gotten fat off of ripping people off while managing their loved ones estates will figure out how to beat the system and win a huge judgment against Myspace or other similar site over something like this.

Re: OT: We Are All Now Criminals Under The Law
 

false imprisonment not equal to bullying people.

Re: OT: We Are All Now Criminals Under The Law
 

I wasn't saying you can hold myspace responsible for user-generated content, I was saying it's silly and impractical and frivolous to do so.

And it's very true about loop holes in the law. One lawyer once said "For every crime, there must be an exception"

Of course, tobacco lost their suits because they were deliberately selling an addictive substance that killed their customer base off, and marketed to children among other crimes, and attempted to bury said evidence.

Eating fast food is a choice in favor of laziness and sloth. While they sell a hopelessly disgusting product, they aren't using highly addictive substances, just preying on our own ability to be lazy turds. When people sued them, they used the tobacco lawsuit format and lost. They could've sued on the fact some of their food-products aren't even made from food.

Now as for message filtering, I don't see that as being viable as it can generate numerous false-positives.

Now what myspace can do is implement a system of

1.) tracking and storing all of that data for evidence in case something does happen. This could be used for data-filtering in the future if such technology can be made viable.
2.) create a system where people can seek help from myspace and/or out abusive users and user harassment without fear of reprisals.
3.) work with state and federal authorities to craft legislation to help prosecute people who abuse others on line.

Re: OT: We Are All Now Criminals Under The Law
 

Excellent suggestions. I have to say that your are 100% spot on with everything you said in your post. That is one of the reasons I think this forum has survived for so long, it is filled with good people, not low brow name calling jerks like virtually every other forum on the net these days.

Re: OT: We Are All Now Criminals Under The Law
 

I've never understood it when I read of how fast food supposedly tastes bad. If it supposedly tastes so bad why do so many people eat it?. I quite like the occasional KFC Chicken Burger, and some chips. Real chicken. I can't stand McDonalds beef burgers though. It's just bits stuck together, and overcooked. I always assumed that was my personal taste though. I prefer juicy meat, Mcdonalds would be closed down if they tried to sell meat that still had blood in it (It's called blue). I only have fast food maybe 2 or 3 times a year though.

We have a chain, i suppose it's international, called Hungry Jacks.

"you can't get better than Hungry Jacks"

um actually yes you can. I tried their chicken burger made from real processed chicken bits and won't go back there on principle.

You know actually it seems Fast food is bad after all. Hmm I suppose I never noticed since as I said I very much like a Bacon and cheese chicken burger on rare occasions.

Now what you call Luncheon meat, urg. My philsophy is a reasonable amount of real food, I always have some turkey or Ham in thefridge, rather than processed meat and crisps all the time. I enjoy trying out new recipes, incidentally trying to find out the secret of KFC. I have my own recipe for fried chicken, and am always trying new food. Most common food I find incredibly bland and try new spices and sauces. It's gotten to the stage where I find chilli pepper a bit boring.

Re: OT: We Are All Now Criminals Under The Law
 

If you rent one movie this year, make it Super Size Me. Just watch that movie.

Re: OT: We Are All Now Criminals Under The Law
 

If your do watch it, watch the deleted scenes as well.

You won't eat for a month

Re: OT: We Are All Now Criminals Under The Law
 

Well the manufacturers do have a point. One I agree with. Of course your cholesterol and weight will go up if you eat McDonalds 3 times a day for what, 6 months.

On the rare occasion I do go to KFC I never upsize. I find the whole meal a filling treat, but intentionally getting more chips and drink is just being greedy. I did get such a thing on the house last time, but that was only because they were delayed and I guess it was payment for waiting. I didn't realise till I got home.

Incidentally I have a condition called Ménière's disease. There is way too much salt in food these days, and it destroyed the hearing in my right ear. When I was diagnosed I think I had 6, maybe 10, times as much sodium in my system as was healthy. I only put a little bit of salt on my food once a week, on fridays when I have fish and chips. This is why I use other spices, like pepper, or chili. If you urinate 10 times a day it means you have too much sodium in your system.

I gradually weaned myself off salt, and these days eating anything with the amount of salt I used to have makes me want to throw up, it's so strong. Just standing near chips at the shop makes my temeprature go up. I won't tell you what happens to the skin in my mouth if I eat salt and vinegar.

Re: OT: We Are All Now Criminals Under The Law
 

Just a point of reference for people, but "Hungry Jack's" in Australia is "Burger King" in the US.

Re: OT: We Are All Now Criminals Under The Law
 

Hence why I said it was an overblown example in my original post...

You seem to be missing the point anyways. I didn't intend for the two to be exact parallels, I meant to underscore the fact that simply because someone doesn't pull the trigger, doesn't mean they aren't guilty of murder. Is that clear enough to understand? Or should I simplify it further?

Re: OT: We Are All Now Criminals Under The Law
 

Quite true. However, if both lead to the death of the victim, should they not both be said to have been murder?

Re: OT: We Are All Now Criminals Under The Law
 

I have to say I do find it a bit odd how people treat the Internet as some sort of special case, because at the end of the day, it's just another medium for communication. If this horrible woman had communicated via text message, would we be calling for nationwide wire tapping? Or if she'd used snail mail, would we be demanding that the Post Office filter all of our mail? What if she'd done it face-to-face (I know that wouldn't work in this particular example, but I'm sure there are other cases where it would)? Would we be demanding that federal agents monitor all of our conversations to make sure we don't say anything mean?

People will say and do nasty thing to each other regardless of the medium of communication used, and when these nasty things pass into the realm of the criminal, suggesting that we hold the medium responsible is to miss the point entirely. The fact that this woman used MySpace as a medium should be completely irrelevant to the case. If you don't think a little note tied to a rose and left outside her door every morning wouldn't have had an equally, if not more devastating effect on this young girl's psyche, then I really don't know what to tell you.

What I'm getting at is that it's the actions committed that should be criminalized, not the medium over which they were committed. I don't know about the US, but here in Canada, instigating someone to commit suicide is a criminal offense. If anything, the focus should be not on MySpace, but on why there are no laws to punish those who push someone to take their own life. But of course, everyone is going to keep talking about MySpace, because Internet bogeymen are more fun to talk about than perplexing holes in a justice system.

Re: OT: We Are All Now Criminals Under The Law
 

Eloquently put, Mr. Zero.

One of the biggest problems with MySpace is that it's easy to hate. Kind of a Wal-Mart syndrome there. Similar to IM programs, if you look at it. The news is often full of hysteria about ZOMG!!! PREDATORS ON TEH INTARWEBSSS!!! There's that To Catch a Predator show which acts like the internet is so full of sexual predators that it's about to overflow and engulf the world in a rain of predation.

How often do "special reports" about the unsafe nature of the internet come up? The stereotype of MySpace users is either adults that have nothing to do but prey on younger folk and stupid, attention-starved teenagers. The reality is different, of course, but perception > reality.

Re: OT: We Are All Now Criminals Under The Law
 

Renegade, no not really. As in both cases the victim would take their own life. The only thing similar that has happened in recent memory was a debt collector that harassed a lady into suicide. I don't remember what happened in that incident.

Re: OT: We Are All Now Criminals Under The Law
 

Guess we'll have to (to use a massive cliche) agree to disagree http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...ies/tongue.gif