NLAW
 

Hey!

Liked the fact that NLAW is no longer an ATGM, but rather non-ATGM top-attack weapon, as it should! Also the toned down penetration works better than the über-overkill one we had previously.

But now the weapon accuracy is nowhere near the real deal. Previously as an ATGM it needed no ratings for fire control, range finder etc. But now as non-ATGM weapon, as the unit carrying the NLAW (team usually) has still no control nor range finder stats, it makes the weapon very inaccurate - in open terrain I get ~30% in defence, with enemy tanks moving quite slowly!

Now, the weapon itself, nor the team, has any LRF -equipment as they don't need it in real life, as the projectile fired is "sort of a missile" that has "no" ballistics (i.e. the range is irrelevant for the projectile to score a hit, and the height the projectile flies stays the same). So the computer in the launcher needs only information if the target moves, and this is done by tracking the launcher movemenet, which will give the lead, and "missile" will be fired in correct (predicted, if target speed and heading stay the same) spot. OK, that is how it works in real life...

BUT!

In game if a weapon class is NOT an ATGM, then it needs LRF -rating to be accurate, otherwise (especially the few first) rounds fired have dramatically less accuracy vs. if the unit (team etc.) is equiped with LRF. So the game seems to consider the shot fired as being "dumb", which means that it is handled the same way as any projectile that has a trajectory. Like the above description of the weapon principles tells, this is not the case in real life (i.e. if you don't know the range you may fire short of the target or over the target).

To test it I gave NLAW teams a LRF (22) and played NLAWs vs. tanks battles. Results were that vs. a fast moving target (moving some 19mph/more) I got ~65% hit chance from unsuppressed, stationary NLAW teams. Against slower moving vehicles the percentage was ~75-85. This was closer to the real thing accuracy wise, as the weapon is very accurate and missile fast, but of course a lot depends on the firer's training level and the target's movement. Still maybe a little less than one would think, considering that the projectile reaches max range in 2 seconds. This can be (poorly, but still...) compared with a tank (with decent FCS, that calculates lead) firing sabot round to some 2000-3000 meters depending on muzzle velocity.

So, in short I would say that the game has the weapon very much undermodelled, and the reasons may be (I wouldn't know I didn't program it):
-the game considers the missile "having a trajectory" similar to other non-ATGM weapons, which leads to the weapon inaccuracy, especially on first shot (from the team)... My test with the LRF -stat supports this hypothesis
-or if above is untrue, then the NLAW weapon stats (accuracy) are way off

Hope this made sence and helped. Currently I've used the LRF (22) to make the teams worth using, and it works OK, especially vs vehicles either stationary, or moving at slow speeds. With faster vehicles I still think it's a bit low %... I will try with better weapon accuracy stat too.

Zip

PS. Ah, and the weapon has no thermal sight itself, so vision 40 for NLAW team would mean that the team has a hand held thermal imager or the country in question has made thermal sights for the weapon. In case of Finland (the one I used in the tests), the weapon will have only II night sight produced locally, so vision 15 should be used.

Re: NLAW
 

Adding a LRF to a dedicated AT unit is fine in theory but that will NOT work when the weapon is used as part of a normal infantry squads weapons as happens in a number of cases in the British OOB. Give a LRF rating to a squad and it will be applied to every weapon ( as it does in a small AT unit but with much less noticiable effect when the units small arms etc are fired )

If the weapons accuracy is too low then that's the number that needs increasing

As for the 40 vision in the Finn OOB. I really do not know why that was given. It should have been 15

Don

Re: NLAW
 

So ATGM and non-ATGM weapons are treated the same way, but it's the ATGM -weapon's very high accuracy that gives the very high first round kill % rather than anything in the weapon class "ATGM" (example, weapon 1 is ATGM, 2 is not, both have accuracy 90 and firing unit has no LRF, FC, etc. then both should have same hit % all the time if both have same range etc. etc.?)? If this is so, then OK, but if ATGM as weapon class gets some accuracy bonuses, I think these should be applied to NLAW's weapon class too.

BTW why does ATGM accuracy tend to decrease after each fired shot against same target vs. the normal behaviour of getting higher % with non-ATGM weapons after each shot? Or am I just seeing things?

Zip

Re: NLAW
 

Missiles don't use the 1-2-3 shot ladder of normal guns.

However, a second ATGM shot opportunity will have less time remaining in a move since the first one took up 20-30 seconds - so is generally less likely to hit (though a shot at a disabled target may still get a high %age). And a second shot in a row from the same spot is more likely to be spotted and avoided, and/or return fire made at the launcher before the missile impacts.

It's better to leave any second ATGM shot opportunity (if you shot in your phase) for the opfire phase IMHO. 1 ready shot is a guaranteed opfire opportunity - a launcher on 0 opportunities may well not fire opfire, if low experience.

I generally prefer to leave my ATGM on a filter for MBT type targets, especially if the enemy is coming at me, and so any with 2 shot opportunities will be guaranteed to fire twice in opfires.

Cheers
Andy

Re: NLAW
 

"Missiles don't use the 1-2-3 shot ladder of normal guns."

And this is to represent that the firer doesn't need to guess the range to the target, right? The 1-2-3 is there (especially seen with low RF units) to "simulate" the firer getting the range correct with the first few rounds? If so, it could be good to remove the 1-2-3 shot ladder from NLAW's weapon type, because it has no trajectory and the range (20-600m) has no relevance in hit %? Or add another weapon type (anti tank non guided missile, top-attack? sounds fun:))?

Zip

Re: NLAW
 

And laser range finders, if inside 2xrange in our games (not the original code) use a 1-2 ladder (they ignore the first stage).

Giving an NLAW a laser RF would therefore reflect the guidance, but as Don pointed out, if you give an infantry team one then all weapons in the unit get the benefits. Also an increase in FC (to allow for moving targets) - ditto, the weapons of the squad would benefit. Which is really why they were ATGM when first done.

Making weapon accuracy say, 255 (max for a byte) might help - but the accuracy to hit will still probably be pulled down quite a bit if fired at > 1/2 weapon range due to the way the code works. Try it as an experiment (It may make them rather more expensive when run through the Cost Calc though!). But there may be a value that ups the to-hit reasonably noticeably, while not adding to cost too drastically (50)?.

Cheers
Andy

Re: NLAW
 

Ah OK... this clarifies much!

So hopefully in next patch you have taken this into account, and NLAW (+ all other future weapons of similar kind, if any are coming?) would be the sort of "semi-ATGM" that it is - so no 1-2-3 nor 1-2 ladder, no way for vehicles to use VIRSS to block the missile (being unguided and flying to the predicted point anyways, vision blocked or not)? And also not as accurate as real ATGMs as with NLAW once the missile leaves the tube, any evasive action (intentional or unintentional) can ruin the shot (maybe targets can use evasion like with ATGMs, but with a lot smaller chance, as the range is so short, that you really need to see the launch and have reflexes of a cat http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...es/biggrin.gif)

At the moment it seems that it's still best to use NLAW as TA-ATGM with high accuracy rating, or to add LRF and FC to the team (this is what I have currently, and it boosts the team's cost from ~30 to ~100, which is not bad thing at all considering the cost of the weapon in real life vs. older rechoilles -weapons) and have the unpleasant side effect of super-accurate small arms (not a big deal anyways)... otherwise, as it is now, the weapon is quite useless (because it doesn't hit the broad side of a barn), even with the very high penetration value (100)...

Zip

Re: NLAW
 

It's always a treat dealing with these sweeping generalizations about how the game operates. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...s/rolleyes.gif

I ran one test were 9 shots from that weapon resulted in 5 kills under "combat" conditions ( ie NOT a static test with the tanks lined up nice and neat ) and under "combat conditions", in reality or in the game, a 55% shot to kill ratio is hardly ..."it doesn't hit the broad side of a barn" .

The second test, also under game "combat conditions", had 40 missle launches and 24 hits which resulted in 22 kills. That's a 60% shot to hit ratio and, once again, as in the first test, a 55% shot to kill ratio.....all under "combat condtions" and once again this is hardly ...."it doesn't hit the broad side of a barn".

Is it ?

And all that is with the stock weapon we have in the the game now and fired at various ranges. Nothing altered, nothing changed from normal.

Don

Re: NLAW
 

Yes, I generalized, but only because these are the results I am getting... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif "Quite useless" is of course slight exaggeration on my part, as anything that can eventually kill a tank is not useless in this game. But that's how it seems when platoon of 4 patrols (4 missiles each) are missing average 3 shots out of 5, because of switching targets on enemy turn and always "resetting" the 1-2-3 ladder mentioned above. But my point still remains: NLAW team with or without a LRF should be equally accurate against stationary targets at any range (no 1-2-3 ladder), something that is currently not the case...

What range was your above test(s) on? As in all my tests with the default stats I get ~35% hit chance, and this is to ranges 400-600 usually. With same range and LRF I get almost double the %, and when adding a FC rating (as the weapon system has a FC to calculate lead) the % doesn't drop a lot when the targets move (though still more than with ATGMs as I think it should be...) If I understood correctly from Andy's post, firing to ranges under 300m should up the hit % a lot (max 600).

Zip

Re: NLAW
 

First. I told you what the ranges were in my post "fired at various ranges" and that is everything from Max range to point blank. I also told you these were combat conditions not static tests so terrain , smoke and a number of other factors come into play

the "hit chance" you are reading causes more aggravation that it's worth and I would be quite happy to rip it right out and leave everyone guessing and that goes for the "ready" "Pinned" "Retreating" and "Routed" reports as well .

That is the initial, unadjusted hit chance before experience, morale and suppression and a host of other factors are taken into account and if you go back and read what Andy wrote on the first line you will find he said "Missiles don't use the 1-2-3 shot ladder of normal guns."

Re: NLAW
 

Yes, I did read Andy's message very carefully. OK, so missile has no 1-2-3 ladder. I did a following test:

Sweden VS. Russia
6 NLAW (MBT-LAW) VS 12 MT-LB
-all engagements are from static positions VS static MT-LBs. Results listed as follows:

Engagement number (firing team X/6):
Range to target in meters, terrain target is on (hit % given in lower screen when right clicking the target)
-(team suppression) hit chance, result of the shot

Fisrt engagement (team 1):
Range 150m, target on open field (35%)
-23 %, miss
-(3) 32 % miss
-(1) 53 % kill

Second engagement (team 2):
Range 150m, target on open field (hit % given when right clicking is 35%)
-23 % miss
-39 % hit

Third engagement (team 3):
Range 300m, target on open field (32%)
-35 % miss
-59 % miss
-88 % hit
-96 % kill

Fourth engagement (team 4):
Range 500m, target on open field (28%)
-28% miss, receives fire, 1 casualty
-22% (2) miss
-46% (1) miss

Fifth engagement (team 5):
Range 250m, target on open ground (56%)
-33 % miss
-67 % kill

Sixth engagement (team 5):
Range 450m, target on open ground (29%)
-29 % kill

Seventh engagement (team 5):
Range 300m, target on open ground (32%)
-29 % miss

Eight engagement (team 6):
Range 250m, target on open ground (58%)
-34 % miss
-70 % hit
-94 % kill

Ninth engagement (team 6):
Range 300m, target on open ground (33%)
-33 % kill

-------------------

So, with 6 teams firing total of 20 shots, I scored 9 hits, which is 45 % hit ratio, and scored 6 kills, which is 67 % kill ratio, and total lethality (6/20) is 30 %. And as you can see, these were semi "combat" situations, with enemy firing back, but I gave MT-LBs only because I didn't want my teams to get killed after first shot. And targets were not moving, so hit & should have been best possible.

OK, I am not interested in weapon effectiveness according to kill ratio of the missiles fired, nor the lethality of the individual missiles as of course each hit should not be a total kill.

What should be noted is the quite dramatic drop in first shot hit % when range goes above 300m. Something that does not happen with missiles, at least not that clearly). Also, when the targets were 150m away on field (if it has any cover value?) the hit % on first shot was really low (23%)!

But what I am trying to say here, is that the 1-2-3 ladder is CLEARLY visible. This is something I don't see when using ATGMs. And like both you and Andy say, missiles don't have 1-2-3 ladder, so I am questioning if weapon type 23 "Top Attack HEAT" is treated as a missile or not... What I understood from Andy's posts was that LRF has no effect on missiles.

But the same test with RF rating of 20 (LRF) added, I have following result

1, field (150m, 94%):
-99% kill
2, field (300m, 84%):
-84% kill
3, field (500m, 80%):
-80% kill
4, field (300m, 99%):
-73% kill
5, open (450m, 80%):
-73% miss
-80% kill
6, open (500m, 73%):
-73% miss
7, open (250m, 99%):
-88% kill
8, open (250m, 88%):
-97% kill
9, open (300m, 85%):
-85% miss

For this I used NLAW team with Finnish base stats, but Fin and Swe have both 75 as exp, fin has 75 morale, sweden 70. I believe this doesn't make much of a difference. What did do a huge difference, is that when the team "knows the range", hit % rockets sky high against the same static targets vs. when they "didn't know" the range. When using NLAW, range doesn't matter, just like with ATGMs. If the firer misses, it is not because he guessed the range wrong...

Zip

Re: NLAW
 

1) 300m just happens to be 1/2 or more max weapon range (12 hexes, 600m) - so accuracy drops off there somewhat for any non-missiles.

2) TA-HEAT is not an ATGM weapon - TA-ATGM would be.

3) Fields do provide some cover (esp for infantry) - the crops obscure vision like tall grass.

As I said before - the NLAW really needs to be in a new missile class of its own. (Or, the possibility for VIRSS and CIWS needs to be screwed right down for reaction to very close range missile shots - vehicle dodging is already difficult if the missile launch is from < 20 hexes/1000 yards). When I look at the code again for the next release around Xmas time, I'll have a look into these short-range semi-guided weapons.

cheers
Andy

Re: NLAW
 

I had two examples yesterday in tests where one MBT LAW ( same weapon as NLAW ) fired by an infanrty section AFTER MOVING hit and destroyed a tank at 600 yeards range on the first shot and a Inf AT team did the same thing, after moving, on a tank at 550. Both were game "combat conditions". I am not convinced there is a problem with the accuracy of this weapon.

Don

Re: NLAW
 

OK, thanks for the info, I missed the part where you said you already were looking into NLAW having missile class.

OK, if this is the accurate you think the weapon should have, I won't argue anymore about this, as it may just be that I have had bad luck with the weapon so far.

The way the weapon is handled, like Andy confirms in quote above, is hopefully something you also can agree on. And perhaps IF NLAW receives a missile class of its own, the (especially first round) hit % will go up to a level that would reflect the real life characteristics of the weapon a bit better (1-2-3 ladder is no longer used, or the effect is more limited vs. normal guns).

Zip

EDIT:
By the way, while going through the NLAWs in all OOBs, I noticed that Sweden and GB have NLAW ROF 6, and Finland 4. While looking at a few other AT teams, also noticed that GB and Sweden have them all in ROF 6-7, but Finnish APILAS Team was ROF 4. Just and observation that hopefully helps http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif