Don\'t ShrapnelGames *want* Dom3 to succeed?
 

Ok, this is ridiculous:

Dom3 is available in the US for ~50 US$. However, if I buy stuff directly from the US I must pay additional customs on top of the much higher shipping cost, and it takes several weeks to get it.

So I look for European distributors only to find out that the few ones available charge ~50 *Euro* for the game - which at the current exchange rate is almost twice as much as in the US!

I know the game is very good, but having to pay twice the amount is plain robbery, and many people simply wont buy the game on those terms, meaning Dominions will continue to be a niche game - a real shame for a game with such a huge potiential.

I know it isn't ShrapnelGames' fault that EU distributors are over-charging, but I do think they have a responsibility to Illwinter as their main distributor to make the game available outside the US too.

Don't ShrapnelGames know about the invention of the Internet? Why don't they simply sell the game online (downloadable game+manual+mail the serial). If Valve and several others can make it work, so can they I'm sure.

I had this same problem years ago when I bought Dom2, but I honestly thought they'd done something about this in the meantime http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...s/rolleyes.gif

Re: Don\'t ShrapnelGames *want* Dom3 to succeed?
 

Hi,

I'm not affiliated with Shrapnel Games, but since the last major discussion about the lack of digital distribution happened only last February I thought you might be interested in reading Shrapnel Games' answer to the queries then.

http://www.shrapnelcommunity.com/thr...;Number=579437

Re: Don\'t ShrapnelGames *want* Dom3 to succeed?
 

Brilliant Endoperez - thanks for the link http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

(I did do a few forum searches on "europe", "buy" and "buying" before I posted, but not on digital distribution http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif)

Re: Don\'t ShrapnelGames *want* Dom3 to succeed?
 

It's not like the price of Shrapnel games in Europe doubled - just the value of the dollar halved, no?

Can't Europeans who want to take advantage of the dollar losing half its value, find a way to order from the USA?

Re: Don\'t ShrapnelGames *want* Dom3 to succeed?
 

Hey! Those people that are doing photo shoots about how they are lusting for Dom3 have to eat, too! So don't just complain that the prices are too high! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif haaheehahaha

Re: Don\'t ShrapnelGames *want* Dom3 to succeed?
 

It shouldn't be a problem to pay for the game is USD if you don't mind waiting for the international shipping.

I won't comment on those photographers. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...ies/tongue.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...ies/tongue.gif

Re: Don\'t ShrapnelGames *want* Dom3 to succeed?
 

The international shipping is something like 2 or 3 weeks though. Better do it fast if you want to play anytime soon...

Re: Don\'t ShrapnelGames *want* Dom3 to succeed?
 

I live in the Netherlands and I ordered the game from the official store here. It took about a week to arrive. I paid $62,45 for the product plus shipping, the price in euros was €40,36.

Considering that stores you buy games from IN Europe will convert dollars pretty much 1:1 into euros to determine their prices, I felt I got quite a good deal there.

Re: Don\'t ShrapnelGames *want* Dom3 to succeed?
 

Waiting is one thing, but besides the $12 shipping cost, any goods imported into the EU is subject to customs taxes and VAT - so in the end I have no idea what my final cost will be.
Interresting. Got an link for that store?
First time I've ever heard about this - every online store I used in the EU will only let you pay in Euros.

Re: Don\'t ShrapnelGames *want* Dom3 to succeed?
 

I think moderation meant that the European shops will buy gmaes from US for X dollars, and sell those same games for X euros.

Re: Don\'t ShrapnelGames *want* Dom3 to succeed?
 

The bad thing is that it's not just games. Most of computer stuff and advanced electronics follow the same rules. Just to give an example : the Iphone costs 400 euros here. It's worth 400 US$ on the other side, and you need 1.5 or 1.6 dollar to make a euro...

So a number of us just buy abroad, because it's much cheaper.

Re: Don\'t ShrapnelGames *want* Dom3 to succeed?
 

Yeah, electronics in US are really really cheaper than in UE. And tax difference [around 5% in US and 15-22% in UE] doest not justify that. Sometimes things in US can be half the price or less.

And when we are talking about prices. China is amazingly expensive country. Pretty much all things 'made in China' are here more expensive than in US. And they have also invented some extremely inefficient ways of selling almost everything. But funny thing - walmart here is much better than in US. Quality closer to Target.

Re: Don\'t ShrapnelGames *want* Dom3 to succeed?
 

I live in the Netherlands and I ordered the game from the official store here. It took about a week to arrive. I paid $62,45 for the product plus shipping, the price in euros was €40,36.

[/quote]

Interresting. Got an link for that store?

[/quote]

I'm fairly sure he meant the shrapnelgames store, i.e. this website. 1 week sounds about right, I never had to wait very long (I've ordered several copies and they were all pretty quick).

Re: Don\'t ShrapnelGames *want* Dom3 to succeed?
 

This customs-claim appears every now and then, but never from anyone who's actually bought the game. At least according to my dom-buying experience customs to EU have amounted to 0 euros.

And I've got my games mailed faster than 1 week, I'd guess it's just up to luck how mail-plane flights match.

Re: Don\'t ShrapnelGames *want* Dom3 to succeed?
 

Yes, I meant the Shrapnel Games store, just click the "our store" link on this website.

And the 1:1 dollars to euros conversion is my experience in brick and mortar stores, not online stores. What I meant is: If a game costs $49.95 at a shopping mall in the US, it will cost €49.95 at a shopping mall in the Netherlands.

I'm not really sure what the current laws on customs are and whether they got changed or something... I ordered some games online 7-ish years ago and had to pay a huge amount of import tax, I ordered dom3 a month ago and had to pay no import tax at all. Besides that I try to order from dutch online stores, so I don't have more data than that.

Re: Don\'t ShrapnelGames *want* Dom3 to succeed?
 

I ordered from shrapnel themselves, got dom3 in less than a week, I live in the EU and nothing extra to pay at customs.

It was a good deal really, as after currency conversion paid a little less than I would for a full price game where I live. Three cheers for the weak dollar. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Re: Don\'t ShrapnelGames *want* Dom3 to succeed?
 

Heh, try 25% VAT here in Denmark (EU). Then add the customs import tax (??%) on top of that.
OK sorry I misunderstood
Officially, anything with a value above some 10 Euros is subject to import tax. However, whether or not they "catch" your package and slam a VAT/import tax bill on it seems random, although I recon they go for the big packages foremost (wouldn't you? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif). I'm unsure how large this bill could be, but with a 25% VAT I'm probably looking at some 37% extra (and for whatever reason this tax is applied for the entire sale transaction, meaning including delivery!?!?). So Dom3 at $55+$12 shipping+37% tax=$92, roughly the same price as buying at 50 Euro overprice directly at an EU reseller.

Can't beat the system http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Re: Don\'t ShrapnelGames *want* Dom3 to succeed?
 

Nah, you pay only customs, but they may be around 30%. VAT is 22% in Poland. Customs I don't know.

With dollar exchange and prices over there it would be a good idea to go on a shopping spree http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/laugh.gif Go for 2-4 weeks, rent a room, car and buy a whole container, pack with goods, ship it back to Europe http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif Even with customs it would be worth it.

Re: Don\'t ShrapnelGames *want* Dom3 to succeed?
 

To be honest, I think that in order to "succeed" in the sense that the OP meant, perhaps the best option would be to reduce the price of purchase through Shrapnel.

Here is why I think this, and it's something sad that I've noticed is rampant - I purchased this game new and shrink wrapped from Amazon (not from a private party, but through them, retail) for $50. Here is the problem that I tend to see, by relying on outside retailers such as this, a company is telling me two things. First, I feel bad about having bought through Amazon when I could have purchased through Shrapnel, as I know Amazon made at least $10 on the sale (most likely), and this situation is even worse if you buy from a department store or such where you can be sure the publisher saw no more than half of the sale price. You see, when you talk about value on a 50-60$ game, you are really talking about value on a 25-30$ game, because THAT is at most the revenue generated by it. The second thing that I am being told by this, is that the pricing for direct sale is a bit exorbitant. The thing is, if someone can sell their game to a retail outlet for $30, why can they not cut me a break on their website? It seems that the digital distribution ills and whatnot are totally ameliorated if you stop letting someone else reap the rewards from your efforts, and price competitively only through your own distribution network.

I know things are a "little" more complicated than that, as some of the value lost on selling to retail outlets is made up in the form of greater visibility and whatnot, but it may be important to note that if the game were sold only through Shrapnel at say $40, word of mouth could do wonders at this point. I know I am happy to sing the praises of Dominions - and the fine people who produce it - to anyone who will listen.


Of course, the point is ultimately that it is somewhat a "niche" game. No amount of wishful thinking can change that, the bulk of the gaming community is VERY visually oriented, and without a team of 20 working on the graphics, you get a game that has a quirky charisma to it, but nonetheless looks like it's 10 years old. Compound that with the fact that most gamers can't wrap their heads around this level of strategic complexity (they want something fast, FPS and RTS), and you have a well defined niche - the "not so graphically dependant hardcore turn based strategy game".


Anyways Illwinter, I love you guys, if any of you read this, it is all meant constructively and supportively. <3

Re: Don\'t ShrapnelGames *want* Dom3 to succeed?
 

I ordered online from Australia, cos me I think USD$11 extra in shipping, that's it. Covnerted to the aussie dollar it was still cheaper than most games here. It arrived in about one and a half weeks, really not a problem, I got good value out of the demo in that time period.

Re: Don\'t ShrapnelGames *want* Dom3 to succeed?
 

To be honest, I don't think the Illwinter team really cares whether the game makes a lot of money or not. I get the impression that they do it for the fun of it, as strange as that may sound.

Re: Don\'t ShrapnelGames *want* Dom3 to succeed?
 

I really disagree that the majority of gamers aren't able to wrap their heads around it. Thats a pretty strong claim, and sounds a bit egocentric. Its entirely possible that while they have no difficulty with a game like it, they simply don't want to shell out +50$ (common college student complaint) or simply prefer a faster game (another guy I know who is a double major as well as being on a school team and orchestra...)

Re: Don\'t ShrapnelGames *want* Dom3 to succeed?
 

If you look at other independent game developers (Matrix Games, for example), they offer most if not all of their games via digital download. The average price, around $50.00 US

As such, I do not think that DOM 3 is over priced, rather, given the large printed manual, I think it is a pretty good deal.

I am patiently awaiting my copy to arrive (3 to 5 business days to Canada via USPS Global Priority Mail). I too have received good play value from the demo.

While I wish it had been available via digital download, I can understand the dollars and cents argument that Shrapnel has made as to why this and other titles are only available via mail order.

[Update: game arrived this morning...goodbye world, hello Dominion 3] http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...es/biggrin.gif

Re: Don\'t ShrapnelGames *want* Dom3 to succeed?
 

There is also something special about waiting each day for something you want to arrive in the mail.. was an exciting moment the day it arrived http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Re: Don\'t ShrapnelGames *want* Dom3 to succeed?
 

Go Australia Post, eh?

Re: Don\'t ShrapnelGames *want* Dom3 to succeed?
 

They don't look for "big packets", they look for those where a value is declared. And right after that for those without a "value" or declared "gifts" .. and if they see something going from Shrapnel Games Inc. to Mr.SoNSo .. they immediatly suspect some commerical transaction going on http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

That said, the threshold for Import Tax and Import Duty e.g. in Germany is 22 Euro, and that should be the same throughout the EU.
On 1. Dec 2008, there will be a big change, though: the Import Duty threshold will raised to 150.- Euro !!
http://www.heise.de/newsticker/Golde...meldung/106159
I'm not sure about the import tax, though, but I'll get me some more info on that - and if it turns out there's really something positive going on I'll post it to the forum.

Re: Don\'t ShrapnelGames *want* Dom3 to succeed?
 

Value is declared on every package. You need to give it when sending anything. I really think it is random, there are way too many packages arriving every day to check even 5-10% of them.

Re: Don\'t ShrapnelGames *want* Dom3 to succeed?
 

I'd say it already has.

Re: Don\'t ShrapnelGames *want* Dom3 to succeed?
 

I am not sure these things are mutually exclusive. I am quite sure that if they had reason to believe that tweaking their business model would result in even 10% higher profits, or a short term surge in sales and activity, that they'd probably go for it, since they needn't even be directly involved beyond making the decision to change. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...ies/tongue.gif


Well let me clarify. When I said "wrap their heads around it", I didn't mean people are intellectually incapable (well some are, certainly not all), but there are a variety of factors that go into it. In my experience, having many people of varying intelligence levels come to my home while I have a game going, MOST of them will comment on a game such as Dom3 that they lack the patience to play a game like it. Neither they or I are calling them mentally incapable, but the fact remains, many people have no desire whatsoever to play this style of game, and this is exacerbated by the growing dominance of "eye candy" in the gaming industry.

Re: Don\'t ShrapnelGames *want* Dom3 to succeed?
 

RE: "Wrap their heads around it"

Agreed. It takes a certain kind of mentality to ENJOY shuffling units around and watching them smash each other. I can understand why many people don't find that appealing, in the same way that I dislike the superhero comic soap opera that my friend tries to describe to me once in a while--I could follow it if I cared about it, but it bores me to tears. Wargames like Dominions3 are probably similar. Niche market.

-Max