MA Mictlan - An Introduction
 

Introduction:

Middle-age Mictlan is very different from early and late. Many aspects will appear the same. All three ages have national only level three priests and cheap recruitable sacred units everywhere. All ages have the same national spells. The non-sacred recruitable units are also the same with exception to a lack of moon warriors in late-age. You can even recruit the Nahualli (mages who shape-change into turkeys) in all three ages. This aside, their are some fundamental differences.

The other two ages have an overwhelming amount of blood magic compared to middle's rare random on a single mage. The two also have a dominion that only spreads with blood sacrifice, while middle can't sacrifice at all. Pretender selection is also vastly different as all blood gods are removed in the middle age. Ultimately, these few differences greatly effect how the two are played. Early and late age get to use their dominion as a precise weapon at the cost of having to perform constant maintenance on their dominion. They also get to explode with zero-upkeep sacred demon hordes. This makes both ages more suitable to overwhelming nations with a stronger dominion directed on their borders and with armies of higher quality troops. Lacking these major aspects does not make middle-age Mictlan a weaker faction, though most would claim so. It simply makes a it a different faction, which is more then a match for the other nations of the same age.

The first hint I can give you is to not compare middle-age to the others. (Granted, I just did that.) It is much better to simply look at what they do have. Second, middle-age will need neutral to positive scales. They don't need to be great, but you don't want to be killing your population. (More about scales is covered in pretender design below.) I've determined that there is two ways one could play Mictlan. The first is to, of course, leverage your sacred power. The second is to actually play the nation like it were any other. Most people, I feel, underestimate Mictlan's regular troops and their access to free non-mindless chaff. Making the sacred aspect of your strategy a second to good scales and a thought out pretender allows a more solid late-game position in my opinion. I'll do my best to cover strategies for both.

Pretender Design:

As mentioned above, you'll want to avoid a damaging set of scales. Your dominion spreads on it's own like any other nation and taking death will hurt your chances of winning. I would also swear against taking drain. Increased battle magic diversity and a more powerful astral mage is what sets this age from the others. If you cripple that advantage then you will surely never outshine the other two ages.

If your looking for design points for a bless strategy, sloth 3 is the place to start as your recruit-anywhere sacred is only 3 resources each. Heat 1 is absolutely free and helps the cold-blooded couatl. Imprisoning your god after all that should leave you enough points for a dual bless and a high dominion with points left over in some cases. Taking more heat for order also won't be a bad trade as you won't need the food supply (nature mages and small elite armies) and it will net you more gold overall. It's really up to you after that. Personally, I favor taking at least magic 1. As for which bless combination to take, I suggest giving your eagle warriors increased attack and damage, which a fire bless can do on it's own. My preference after that is an astral bless as it provides a level of protection that is enough to get them to at least round two.

Example Pretender for Dual-Bless: Imprisoned Oracle, Fire 9, Astral 9, Dominion 8, Sloth 3, Heat 1, and 130 points left. 95 with dominion 9 and 53 with dominion 10. Great for eagle warrior effectiveness with well-rounded attack and defense, mildly weak against missile damage.

If your going for a good scales strategy then I'd suggest trading out sloth for some production. Your armored warriors are cheap enough and good enough that you'll want to spam a lot of them. I'm confident that Mictlan, even without a dual-bless, doesn't need an awakened god in order to survive. I say you should keep the god imprisoned and reap the design points. Really, this approach is all about the long-term strategy in the first place. Focusing on a little earth, death, or blood magic will expand their options. Mictlan really benefits from a rainbow god and magic scales in my opinion.

Example Pretender for Good Scales: Imprisoned Master Lich, Earth 4, Astral 4, Death 5, Dominion 6, Heat 1 and 290 points left, enough for 7 positive increases to your scales. Production is highly suggested. This will open up the world of death magic and be a reliable source of astral five mages for 21 gems using the dwarven hammers and crystal coins you can now craft.

Regulars:

Most nations have a racial advantage which is templated to just about all their units. Examples would be Machaka's unusually low base encumbrance and Marignon's above average moral. Mictlan's racial advantage seems to be their forest survival and below average gold cost, a solidly average unit will cost 9 gold rather then 10.

Warrior (Spear and Sling): Mictlan has slingers in two varieties. They all have spears, slings, hide shields, and a map move of 2. Though slings are less effective in the middle-age then in early-age, they still have their uses. They also double as regular troops as they have average stats across the board, including morale. The unarmored version is easy to spam in high numbers, which is ideal for Fire Arrows, which Mictlan can naturally cast with a little effort.

Warrior (Spear and Javelin): This warrior along with the heavy slinger is the heaviest regular available to you that still has a move of 2. It's a solid spear chucker for a cheap cost, not much else to say. The shield could be better, but it's better then nothing at all.

Warrior (Mace and Javelin): This unit gives up a little battlefield movement and a point of map movement for additional protection and a shorter weapon that does only a bit more damage. The real advantage of this unit is that it is roughly the same as the feathered warrior, meaning a group of warriors mixed in with the feathered warriors will move along the field as one, maximizing the effect of the standards.

Feathered Warrior: This unit has the same armor and weapons as the mace and javelin warrior. However, it is more experienced with a higher attack, defense, and moral score. It also has a standard of 4 which is a real boon to your non-sacred warriors. They cost twice as much as a regular warrior, but are worth every penny in my opinion when going for a good scales strategy.

Moon Warrior: This is an amazing cost-effective regular. For 3 gold more then a warrior you get a better attack, defense, hit point maximum, moral, and magic resistance. On top of all that you also get 50 dark vision. Its heavy obsidian sword packs the punch needed to get past heavy armored soldiers. This unit helps supplement a few of the draw backs to avoiding a bless strategy. Unlike other warriors it lacks even a hide shield. Leveraging your limited access to air magic can solve this minor problem.

Sacreds

Eagle Warriors: The first of the sacred warriors and the only one middle-age can make everywhere they set up shop. The eagle warrior is an ambidextrous spear and dagger warrior that flies when blessed. They've got a good moral score and map move. They are very lightly armored and have no shield. There is virtually no bless you can give them that will make them tanks. Human HP, low protection, and moderate defense gives them little survivability. However, with two attacks and the ability to fly the eagle warrior is an effective blitz unit. As the game progresses into late-game the eagle warrior will begin to outshine the other sacred units. Their ability to fly allows them to hide in the corners of the battlefield and close with the enemy before they are wiped out by mages. Therefore, a strongly offensive bless (fire, blood, and/or death) is ideal for this unit. Their best defense is an already dead opponent.

Sun Warrior: These are the heaviest sacred warriors available and you can only make them at your capitol. They are practically the same as the feathered warrior stat-wise except there Hatchet does a bit more damage then a mace and the Mictlan copper scale they wear has a higher encumbrance. I do find it strange that armor special to Mictlan's sacred units are slightly worse then the armor they give to their run-of-the-mill warriors. Anyhow, these sacreds are best for when the enemy starts to throw lots of mundane damage at you, such a mass of archers or rain of stones. However, since they are hard to amass and since the faster hit point machine known as the Jaguar warrior is available instead, you'll find these warriors rarely employed.

Jaguar Warriors: The most expensive warrior Mictlan has to offer, and some would argue as equally being the most effective. The rather hardy sacred unit is, like the eagle warrior, lightly armored and has no shield. Unlike the eagle warrior, it can't fly. Instead it has an extra life as a sacred Were Jaguar. Once killed it is replaced by a stronger and faster unit with a lot of hit points and three attacks. This feature makes the unit impossible to destroy with a single evocation spell. In warrior form the unit carries an obsidian sword which deals barbarian style damage. This unit can only be recruited in your capitol.

Commanders

Scout: It is indeed a scout.

Tribal King: 80 leadership, sacred, forest survival, and the ability to gather slaves for 40 gold. Furthermore the king isn't too bad of a warrior himself. I wouldn't send him to the front lines as he's not much more effective then any other sacred unit, but it might matter to your other commanders when the enemy breaks past your lines.

Mictlan Priest: Unlike the priests of other ages, this version's magic level is completely random. The priests of other ages supplied a reliable blood income while this one supplies you with a mage-priest you can make without a laboratory. There random path in my opinion isn't all that helpful in combat. Their role is best limited to cheap research.

Nahualli: This sorcerer is the only caster Mictlan has that isn't sacred. However, the Nahualli make up for it in a number of ways. The first is by being reliable communion slaves. Each one is guaranteed one level of astral. They also have two levels of nature, which for me becomes the breaking point where nature magic become worth it. Nature 2 allows for sleep, sleep cloud, panic, berserkers, storm of thorns, wooden warriors, and more. It also is what you need to make the cheapest nature booster, the thistle mace. Let's not forget that astral + nature also grants curse, a great spell when used on thugs. Furthermore, astral 1 and nature 2 is exactly all you need to site search both paths. They have blood and death randoms, which are rare, but worth looking out for as Mictlan normally don't have access to these paths. The Nahualli also have the ability to turn into a turkey, which doesn't seem great until you notice that they don't lose any magic paths and that they now can fly. This allows your communion slaves to keep up with your communion masters, the couatl and your high priests of the sky, who also fly. In regards to cost, 110 gold for a mage with 5 base research is good for any nation. Surely I agree that a Mictlan priest of more cost efficient, but there isn't much to do with them after researching. My suggestion is to hire these mages whenever you can. When your army needs a push they can respond almost instantly because of their ability to fly. There spell selection, particularly after communion, makes sending them worth this minor effort.

Sky Priest: The alternative to the Mictlan priest. For 10 more gold you get a consistent path in air, a patrol bonus, and slim chance at a random magic level.

The following commanders can only be recruited in your capitol.

Moon Priest: I can see a number of uses for this commander. Though they have a higher initial cost, the upkeep is cheaper then that of a nahualli. The real unfortunate thing is that their are just too many capitol only commanders that I think are worth more to Mictlan. Still if your looking for an effective caster to spam solar rays against a Prince of Death, this is your guy. A minor note, between the moon, sun, and rain priests, the moon priest has a point higher MR.

Sun Priest: Effectively the same caster as the moon priest with two fire instead of two astral. If your planning on a good scales strategy, I would look to recruiting a few of these. (See strategies below as to why.) Out of the moon, sun, and rain priests, the sun priest gets a higher leadership of 50 over the usual 10. Also, they are good site searcher for fire.

Rain Priest: Probably not as effective as the sun priest in battle. It does give you a reliable water mage and water 2 can always craft it's own boosters all the way to water 4. They are also all you need to cast your national water spells. Water site search to boot. They yield no stat advantage over the sun and moon priests.

Sky Priest: Your most reliable source of air magic and one of two holy 3 priests available. The sky priest comes with an innate ability to fly, lead a regular sized army, and has a nifty patrol bonus. One out of four will be able to communion. One out of four will not be old. This is also the caster you look to site search air sites. My favorite aspect of these casters are their ability to cast cloud trapeze.

Priest King: This is my personal favorite among the priests. The priest king can lead a massive number of troops, is a holy 3 and nature 2 caster, and can summon free chaff. Many times I've used this commander to drop a divine blessing while another casts wooden warriors on a batch of eagle warriors, all while the cheap chaff take the initial arrow fire. I probably only like them more then the Sky Priest because I've been playing Mictlan before the sky priest was even around. Still a good buy in my opinion, but limit your investment.

Couatl: This is the most powerful caster Mictlan has. It's a lizard that flies, has only a head slot and two miscellaneous slots. It has Astral 3 and nature 1 as a given and can potentially get to astral 4. I think people dislike them because they lack the slots to make them effective super combatants. I've tried never to see them as combatants and that's probably why I'm okay with them. The truth is that as an astral mage, it has all the slots it really needs. Sure I can think of a dozen uses for the missing slots, but if your goal is to boost an astral mage in the cheapest way possible, then you only need a head slot for a starshine skullcap, and miscellaneous slots for penetration items or the other astral boosters. The only astral boosters that don't fall under head or miscellaneous slots are unique and belong on something better, like your heroes or pretender. Still 400 gold for this unit is a lot, even if you factor in that it's holy. Still, it's worth the occasional investment, and they have considerable access to nature and air magic as well. A couple of coualt's and a team of turkey mages can fly into any province and dominate a battle field when done right.

Magic:

Mictlan has the advantage of having access to a lot of magic paths. They have reliable access to fire, water, air, nature, and astral magic. They can site search for all these paths and have the starting gem income to support such searching. In regards to death and blood, the nahualli have a slight chance at either and they have an undead hero with 3 death, 3 blood, and 3 holy. Also, water magic will lead to blood magic if you summon the Tlaloque, a Mictlan national demon summon (Conjuration 7). Each of the four has strong magic paths, including 3 blood and 4 water each. Earth is really the only magic completely unavailable to them.

Strategies:

Teleportation: One advantage Mictlan has is that, with a little luck or preparation, you can instantly send your best priest, your best mage, and whole armies to locations far away and before the enemy can move. The high priest of the sky can naturally use Cloud Trapeze (Enchantment 4). Thecouatl can naturally use Teleport (Thaumaturgy 3). If you get a Priest King or a Nahualli with nature 3, or if you manage to get a couatl with nature 4 then using non-unique nature boosters, the Thistle Mace (Construction 4) and the Moonvine Bracelet (Construction 6), will allow you to use Faery Trod (Enchantment 5). If you equip a couatl with a Starshine Skullcap (Construction 6) then you can use Gateway (Thaumaturgy 5). Also, if you manage a couatl with astral 4 then you can equip him with a Starshine Skullcap and cast Astral Travel (Thaumaturgy 9). If you have an astral five mage , ether with luck or with a pretender, then you can exclude further reliance on luck and forge Rings of Sorcery, however, I'm opposed to this as it isn't an economical use of gems, even with a forge bonus. If you would rather prepare then rely on luck (or drop an additional 30-40 astral gems on a commander before you even move) then I would suggest putting astral and earth on a pretender to forge Crystal Coins and/or nature and blood to forge Armors of Twisting Thorns (both Construction 4). Using non-unique boosters allows you to, theoretically, make an endless supply of teleporting armies. I'm also particular to the earth and astral solution as that allows your to make Dwarven Hammers (Construction 2), which will economize your gem usage even further.

Flaming Arrows (Enchantment 5): Sun Priest + 2 fire gems + Phoenix Power (Conjuration 3) + cheap national slingers and lion tribe independents = barbecue. You can boost the effectiveness of this strategy by casting Wind Guide as well (Alteration 4). This is a strategy is better employed by a non-bless Mictlan, as it works better with larger armies. Acquiring a more powerful fire mage or finding a way to make Fever Fetishes (read below) makes this a more viable tactic.

Using Negative Precision Spells: Mictlan can benefit from the use of spells that decrease the effectiveness of precision or of projectiles. The Moon Warriors and Jaguar Warriors deal a good amount of damage at the cost of not wielding a shield. (Their shields aren't that great anyhow.) The moon warriors are also your most elite non-sacred unit, and most would argue that the jaguar warrior is their best unit period. By using spells like Mist (Evocation 3), Storm (Evocation 5), and Arrow Fend (Enchantment 6) you can eliminate their greatest weakness. Eagle warriors also benefit greatly from these spells, with exception to storm as that prohibits their ability to fly. The storm spell is more difficult to cast, but isn't out of Mictlan's reach. A High Priest of the Sky with Astral can commune or you can be lucky enough to get a high priest of the sky or a couatl with air 3. The best approach in my opinion is to create a Staff of Storms (Construction 6). However, you can't do so without an air 4 caster, which Mictlan doesn't naturally have access to. Air 4 is also the requirement for the the two common air boosters, the Winged Helmet and the Bag of Winds (both Construction 4). Having a pretender or some other caster with air 4 will open up the world of serious air magic to Mictlan.

Alternating Recruitment: If you decide to take advantage of Mictlan's spear chucking units and in doing so use the standard bearers, then I find it most effective to alternate your recruitment. So buying 2 mace and javelin warriors followed by a feathered warrior will keep a standard bearer in each square. This is more important with Mictlan then it is with Ermor or Pythium as their standard is weaker. Buying one feathered warrior for every 2 warriors isn't all that bad as the feathered warrior is also an experienced soldier. The cheap cost of Mictlan's troops also helps. The real drawback is that this can become a tedious recruitment process.

Weaknesses and Solutions:

Size 4 Couatls: Being size 4 with 20 hp has its draw backs when the rest of the units are size two. The enemy, can and will at times set their archers to attack large monsters. This is particularly effective when used by Ry'leh's mind blasters. It is also possible that the enemy's AI will target your couatl with their spells. Their are a few solutions to this problem. Casting resist magic and/or wearing an antimagic amulet will mostly solve the illithid mindblast and most 100 precision spell problems. If you keep your couatl in the back row, which I highly suggest, then I wouldn't worry about most arrows and spells like drain life. Summon or recruit larger creatures with more HP should solve the problem completely.

Mictlan Makes Cities: Almost everywhere Mictlan goes they set up a city. If your playing a bless strategy, this becomes harmful to your expansion in a really big way. Cities require a lot of time and money to build. 1200 gold in addition to the 400 gold you need for a temple plus a 5 turn investment can really slow you down. This is less harmful when playing a scales strategy as cities have great administration, but when going for a great bless you want lots of forts and not a lot of resources for any of them. What you want to look out for are mountains. Mountain provinces yield hill forts. Their cheap, fast to build, and gather more then enough resource for your eagle warrior gear. Aside from that their really isn't much more you can do.

Things to look for:

A High Priest of the Sky with Fire and Nature or a Priest King with Fire: If you manage one of these two then keep them by your side and use them to forge Fever Fetishes (Construction 2).

A Priest King with Water: Water is the easiest thing to boost. Once boosted to 3 with a Water Bracelet (Construction 6) and a Robe of the Sea (Construction 4) this priest can start making Clams of Pearls (Construction 2). I would also argue that middle-age Mictlan needs astral gems a little more then it needs nature or water.

Independents with flying units: Middle-age Mictlan has a wide variety of flying commanders but doesn't have any flying units that it can recruit to back them up. (The eagle warriors fly, but only in battle, which isn't helpful on the map.) I tend to see middle-age as the Mictlan with more finesse. Combining instantaneous travel via teleportation spells and flying armies will keep Mictlan competitive. The most useful flying units are of course those from amazon independents, the griffin and pegasus riders, as they are also sacred.

A Priest King or Nahualli with Nature 3, a Couatl with Nature 4, or a Couatl with Astral 4. Read Teleportation in the above strategies for details.

Re: Guide to Middle-Age Mictlan
 

My first guide for this game. Feel free to comment constructively and I'll adjust as new information is brought to my attention. Thank you in advance.

Re: Guide to Middle-Age Mictlan
 

reap the benefits of a neighbors dominion --> I thought you only got the bad things from neighbours, not the good.

Am I wrongly informed?

Re: Guide to Middle-Age Mictlan
 

It wouldn't matter if that were true, if your dominion is bad enough then any dominion would be preferable to yours.

Also, I know for a fact that I can take advantage of the research bonus from an enemies magic scales. Further testing revealed that my provinces benefit from the population growth from an enemies growth scales. Clearly you have been led astray.

Re: Guide to Middle-Age Mictlan
 

Odd. I have a Svartalf sitting in a Magic-3 enemy dominion right now, and he's still Research-7. No bonus from the enemy magic dominion. AreaOfEffect, are you sure you're not mixing this up with the research bonus from experience or something?

-Max

Re: Guide to Middle-Age Mictlan
 

I am doing really well in one game as MA Mictlan. Some comments:

- single S9 bless makes initial expansion a bit too slow and scales are just too good to make use of them
- S9 pretender rulz end game
- don't rely on randoms on Nahualli, I never got blood random with over 100 of them recruited
- best way to get into blood would be to summon Tlalocs [yeah, a bit late]
- you could think about flying/teleporting communion casting Master Enslave later
- you really need to site search for earth, alchemists are great if you can find them as they can summon golems, which can teleport together with your mages
- hordes of chaff are wonderful http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif
- I would try to cast Maelstrom so you can get water gem income for clams

Re: Guide to Middle-Age Mictlan
 

Enemy scales on your dominion work just fine. Your scale under enemy dominion don't benefit you.

If your dominion has spread to a province which used to have enemy dominion, as long as the Magic or Luck or whatever stays around, it works. Your dominion will reinstate its own scales, even if they are worse, given enough time.

Re: Guide to Middle-Age Mictlan
 

Why not have your cake and eat it as Ma Mictlan?

Ma Mictlan has still got the unique Ea summons, so how about a F9 B9 bless? This is still a fierce double bless for your eagle warriors all the way through the game and you can use your pretender to get into blood.

When you get your pretender blood hunt to get 25 blood slaves, cast Tiahuelpuchi a few times and you will quickly move in a big way into blood.

You then have advantages of normal dominion spread, recruitable everywhere eagle warriors (which are better than jags), strong'ish air magic and the blood of Ea and La Mictlan.

So you can argue Ma Mictlan is now the strongest of the 3 ages of Mictlan to play.

Re: Guide to Middle-Age Mictlan
 

Give some pretender design example http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Twist Fate is really great both for sacreds and mages. It works against trampling and later, when you add fog warriors and mass luck, you can have really nice armies. Though storm spoils the fun with eagle warriors later.

Re: Guide to Middle-Age Mictlan
 

It seems the example I was using was where I once used drain 3. I simply calculated the difference between similar mages as if it were drain 2, a subtle but important difference. Thanks for clearing that up.

However, a population of mine that has been under enemy candles the entire time I've owned it is still experiencing population growth. It seems the game is picky about what counts as a benefit.

Re: Guide to Middle-Age Mictlan
 

Blood is vital for MA Miclan, you can wait for heroes or put blood on your pretendant, but the High Priest of the Sky need birtch boots even with growth : In late game it's vital to have reliable H3 (devine blessing) with cloud trapeze.

Coualt are useful in late game for gateway yours Capitol only jaguar-warriors

Re: Guide to Middle-Age Mictlan
 

Do you mean Birch Boots or Boots of Youth?

Re: Guide to Middle-Age Mictlan
 

oups, boots of Youth, sorry

Re: Guide to Middle-Age Mictlan
 

A sleeping Moloch with F9, B4, dominion 9 or 10 can still get you good scales. Eagle warriors set to Hold and attack rear are wicked. Include some of your astral mages amongst them and cast Body ethereal/luck for great defense with the offense.

Re: Guide to Middle-Age Mictlan
 

Molochs aren't allowed with MA Mictlan.

Re: Guide to Middle-Age Mictlan
 

Zeldor, I often don't see then randoms as something to rely on. I generally just see their existence as a bonus. I suppose I did however make a bigger deal of it then I meant to. When I get the time I'll correct the wording. I wanted most of my ravings to be about how good the fixed qualities of the nahualli are.



mathusalem, I do not hold to your ideal that blood is something MA Mictlan needs. They only have one old unit and more then 1 out of four of those aren't old due to nature randoms. I'm playing a game with death 3 and I have yet to lose a high priest of the sky to disease. You may have had bad luck, or I might have had good luck. In my opinion you don't need many high priests as you won't have that many armies and priest kings can fill the needs of normal troop movement.



Rytek , I'm sorry but the Moloch is not available for the Middle Age. Though I down-played the importance of the pretender selection in the guide it is worth noting that the selection is drastically different.

In regards to a blood/fire combo I've played around with the pretender selection. I found that spite the attempts to use pretenders with fire magic already, I do believe the oracle is the most cost effective choice.

An imprisoned Oracle with dominion 8, fire 9, and blood 4 leaves you with 26 points remaining. This is before taking things like heat and sloth. An imprisoned Arch Mage with dominion 8, fire 9, and blood 4 leaves you only 4 points left. This also doesn't mention that the oracle also has 3 astral as a bonus and a higher starting dominion, so dominion 9 and 10 will be progressively cheaper with the Oracle. That said a reasonable pretender design exists.

Re: Guide to Middle-Age Mictlan
 

Oops, that must have been an earlier patch then. My opponrnt in one MA game definetly had a moloch, although that was a few patches ago. He did use the ethereal and luck to good use though.

MA Mictlan and Death 9 Blessing ?
 

just discovered that nearly all MA Mictlan Mages are sacred. So i wonder, is there good battlefield spell that would profit from the extra 2 AN Damage of a D9-blessed mage ?

Re: MA Mictlan and Death 9 Blessing ?
 

D9 doesn't give extra damage to spells. However, the affliction chance increase does apply, so if a death-blessed mage can cast earthquake or something it can seriously mess up the enemy army.

Re: MA Mictlan and Death 9 Blessing ?
 

Astral tempest+doom seems like it has potential to screw up a large army.

Re: MA Mictlan and Death 9 Blessing ?
 

Indeed it does, and is not entirely outside the realm of what MA Mictlan can do all on it's own.

Revised Opinion: Eh, not so much. It seems that astral tempest hits a percentage of the battlefield every round. This leaves large gaps that I don't really enjoy. Something like earthquake or rain of stones would be my preference as they are sure to hit every unit, or at least attempt to. This however is not something Mictlan can do without help from the pretender or without a lot of empowerment/luck.

Re: Guide to Middle-Age Mictlan
 

F9S9 can also get you into blood through Wish, but getting so many S gems could be a problem.

How about a dormant rainbow enchanter, say, F4W1E4S6D2N1? Gives you access to fetish and clams, Wish, hammer, etc. etc. but the risk is that with only a weak bless and average scales you might not be strong enough to survive the early game.

Re: MA Mictlan and Death 9 Blessing ?
 

AreaOfEffect,

I forgot to add: Good guide. Sorry. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/smirk.gif

Re: MA Mictlan and Death 9 Blessing ?
 

Well thank you and don't be sorry. As for a rainbow god, I'm not about to dismiss the usefulness of such a god. Magic diversity of the such always keeps your god busy doing something and can really open up doors. I would never tell you not to do such a thing. I would however tell you what I think and why I choose to do what I do.

I personally don't play with such diverse gods for a couple of basic reasons. The first has already been pointed out, which is that such a god can't help but consume a lot of design points while giving you no early game advantage, either with good scales or a good bless.

The other basic reason is that your god is too busy. Such gods often find themselves doing all the work, and when they need to do work on a secondary task the primary tasks don't get done. An example would be the fetish and clam forging. Turning your god into a factory has a serious draw back. Ideally you would want to be churning out a fetish and clam every turn at some point. Yet your god can't make both clams and a fetishes at the same time. Also, if he has something better to do, such as cast wish, make a hammer, ect. ect., then you're not producing the items you expected him to. It gets even worse when you want to take your god out on the warpath.

My preference is to build a god who elevates your other units so that they can do the grunt work instead. For example, I'm in a game where I went for a 4E4S5D master lich (same as the example). One purpose in choosing earth and astral is to allow me to make crystal coins. The crystal coins so far have allowed me to spam more then one mind hunt a turn with only construction 4. Later on my Couatls will move armies around via Astral Travel thanks to crsyal coins plus stashine caps. The point is that after my god has made the coins he doesn't have to mind hunt or move armies around himself leaving him free to do a other things, such as exercise that death magic. Diversity is good, but it should still have a focus somewhere. If you really want to make a gem factory then I suggest you choose one gem type only. In your example I would drop the fire magic completely as clams are more useful to an astral 6 god (and it also requires less micro-management then fetishes).

Either way, I bid you good luck in your games.

Re: MA Mictlan and Death 9 Blessing ?
 

AreaOfEffect,

Good points. Thank you.

Re: Middle-Age Mictlan
 

Revised my guide. Attempted to remove some superfluous comments that weren't generally informative. Made a few of the corrections I said I would do previously. I also added a section to address some of the nation's weaknesses or drawbacks. (No, lack of blood magic is not one of them.)

Feel free to add your collective experience, either on the giving or receiving end of Mictlan's might.

Re: Guide to Middle-Age Mictlan
 

I believe that was me :)

I had the last MA Mictlan Moloch ever... the patch that deleted him from the list came out just after the game started... I was a little bit worried i'd suddenly have him transform into a magicless arch-mage ;)

also, of about 40-50 turkeys, i got 4 or 5 with a blood random :D

I figured it was in keeping with my god's plan to bring mictlan back to the true path...

My Take on MA Mictlan
 

Pretender: Imprisoned Oracle. T3S3H3D3L3M3. F9W9S4 Dom 7

There are some days, JK/KO do a really great job of giving a race a really good look and feel. MA Mictlan is one of those times.

Okay, you're probably already protesting at the *horrible* scales. So how on earth can it work? Well just like in EA/LA it all boils down to the Mictlan Priest.

Your basic unit of conquest will be a MP, hanging all the way in the corner, with 7 jags a tad to the south. Bless, bless, bless hold hold... and your choice after that. Just keep him out of harms way.

This basic unit of conquest will work for almost anything except heavy cav, and deer archers. For cav, throw in a screen of slaves. For really heavy provinces - hit em with two groups.

First turn: If mountains are close, jack up taxes to 200%.
Prophetize your scout. Have your commander patrol. Leave him there, patroling. Build your first researcher. Yep, a Mictlan priest.

You'll be building your first castle on turn 3.
Your basic unit of conquest 7*25 gp +60 = 235 gp. Whenever someone takes a hit, and loses some troops, either build a fort, or bring him back to research.

That same mictlan priest- 60 gp buys ..... 5 research points. Sacred research points. Or 12/gp per rp. The cheapest research in the game, afaik.

And it has one cute little aside... If you were so lucky as to build your second castle next to your first... (Sacrilege, for most races - but perfect for mictlan.. I mean - your whole buildout takes 22 resources.).... you don't even have to build a lab. Just build a temple, and crank out your researchers. Now thats cost efficient! Run them over to your capital to research. Sure sure, someday when you have money you don't know what to do with.. build a second lab.. just not.. now.

So what do you do with those researchers. Construction-2. Somewhere in your first few turns, build a sky priest or 4. See, Mictlan loves animals. Toads, oscelots, jaguars, blood bats... Oops sorry reverted to an earlier age... oh yes.. Owl quills.

Sure, sure, everyone is going to say I've got better use for my air gems than quills. Maybe they do... but 5 research points, and 5 air gems buys you 3 rp. If you can finagle a dwarven hammer you're a better player than I..

By rapidly building a fort, (and keeping up that fort construction rate) you are essentially doubling your research rate. Sometime around turn 12 you should be around 150 rp.

So, sometime around turn 9, I like to build my first nature, fire, priests. Although if you get lucky with getting the Mictlan National dead guy, you might want to consider conjuration. I switch over to thaum for the site searching spells. Dead guy will also give you a convenient entry into blood.

It really is best to play with graphs off. You have good prospects at being tops in provinces & forts - and research will be top third. But if you are playing with graphs on - you might want to hopskotch a few territories so you can take them at your leisure.

A few other notes: Taking S5 on your pretender allows eventual rings o sorcery, rings o wizardry.

Re: MA Mictlan - An Introduction
 

Interesting. I would never play this way personally. Mostly because I don't like having a bunch of Mictlan Priests who are practically useless to me when it comes to combat.

I find the the Nahualli, even with less research, is more dangerous and very versatile. There mobility is also a very big plus for me. It allows them to deploy, win, and comeback home easily. I also favor taking more reliable scales, like order, and just spend more money on better mage-priests.

When I get the time I might write up a guide for the Mictlan I would play if forced into a game right now. I've already used this Mictlan in MP and it can be very effective. It also would surprise a lot of people out there, while the Fire-Water bless is highly predictable and susceptible to known counters.

Still, I like your shrewd approach. Granted, having scales on might make you a target, but it might also make you one of those, "I'll deal with them later" factions who creep along the game being unchecked because they have a good bless, powerful research, and perhaps some good diplomacy.

Re: MA Mictlan - An Introduction
 

Thanks!

Yeah, I actually *really* liked your comment about the nahuli flying turkey. And some of those tactics you mentioned are ones I really should incorporate in my game play.

The problem I have with a nahuli is that I never really know what to do with a S/N mage in middle age. To me, they always scream: Horror mark/ curse.. which is a tactic better suited early and late. Now they are still fodder for communions - but so are what quarter/half? (B/S randoms?) of mictlan priests. And jags don't *need* mage support to slaughter elephants.

14 jags and two priests 470 gp - will easily handle 4 elephants and random commander.

Mictlan priests - early middle AND late are my top 3 favorite units in the game.

Great Blood hunter - or great magic diversity.
Great Researcher
GREAT Bless Platform
Great Lab builder (ME)/Great Temple Builder
Great Communion Fodder

And on top of that - they can blood hunt, and blood sacrifice as well (EA, LA).

And they have one other feature I really, really like: Low opportunity cost. With a pretender or high cost mage unit - you're always debating alternatives. The cost of a mictlan priest is so small, you can afford him to enter that tiny strange hut - you can afford him to site search - sure theres not much chance - but there's also not much risk - and if it can save you from having a higher cost mage do it - its probably worth it.

Re: MA Mictlan - An Introduction
 

Don't underestimate the X1 priests. Sky Priests are possibly the worst, as A1 is in my view next to useless, although they do have that rather handy +10 patrol if someone tries sneaking, so maybe keep a few around.

Of the normal Mictlan Priests (100% F/N/S/W), S1 are cheap communion slaves - excellent. W1 are pretty weak early on, however I think cleansing water gives them useful anti-undead powers where bless might not bother a high MR target. Later on, they can spam Frozen Heart. F1 can fire unspectacular but still useful artillery from early on. N1 are maybe harder to leverage usefully. Tangle vines? Surprisingly useful in large numbers.

At Magic-0, although your recruitment costs for priests and Nahualli are very comparable per research point (Priest: 20gold, Nahualli: 22), your upkeep is twice as much (Priest: 0.67/turn, Nahualli 1.40/turn). Increased research makes priests even more efficient (at magic-1, 15/0.50 compared to 18/1.17). The savings on cost and upkeep can rapidly translate into more castles quickly, then you could transfer to more Nahuallis as you look at combat mages and for the rare B/D picks.

Re: MA Mictlan - An Introduction
 

Communions is one way to boost the effectiveness of the Nahualli. Another is to cast Light of the Northern Star. I find that being boosted to astral 2 opens up many doors that are all very low on the research tree. Paralyze, Mind Blast, and Stellar Cascades are you mainstays. Combine Light of the Northern Star with a reverse communion boosted with Power of the Spheres and you can have over a dozen flying S3N3 mages who can all survive at least one stray missile by changing forms.

Still, I can't argue with brute efficiency. The Mictlan Priest is indeed a more then worthy commander. I would never underestimate this strategy simply because I myself wouldn't use it. There is also room for something in between. After you've built your second castle, switching to Nahualli to shore up your battle magic while using the priests to power the research would likely be a the better of both worlds.

Edit: Agema, there are plenty of uses for the A1 mages when given the right research. They can be used to protect you back lines using a combination of Aim and Orb Lightning. Phantasmal Warrior can also be surprisingly effective when spammed. Going back to Aim, they make decent candidates for some of the magic ranged weapons, especially with a water bless. Finally, when you cast storm you can easily upgrade them all to A2 mages, which screams lightning bolts. Note that storms can be really helpful in protecting you jaguar warriors and moon warriors from arrow fire.

Re: MA Mictlan - An Introduction
 

You mean one of those "oh god please sing a NAP with me so I have half a chance in this game" nations? :p


I'm curious about this Mictlan-Priest-centric strategy, as I am quite fond of M3 on a nation that has incredibly low cost research mages. Also, I can see good uses for all variants of the Priest, as the game progresses (though the N variant's best use is as your research baseline while the rest get more busy).

I may try them again in SP just to see..... I'd personally use a bit different bless though, I'm not sure. That's one of my biggest problems with Mictlan, I can't find a bless that I really feel is a game winner, and for the cost, F9/W9 just doesn't give me that vibe (playstyle playstyle playstyle ;)).


Oh, and I seem to remember a certain person making ample use of Sky Priests..... Arrow Fend handily stopped 20 Nether Darts spamming Starspawns from annihilating an army. :(

Re: MA Mictlan - An Introduction
 

Yeah, arrow fend can do that. :)

Combine with antimagic for maximum effect.

Re: MA Mictlan - An Introduction
 

That would be a High Priest of the Sky casting Arrow Fend, not a Sky Priest. Sky Priests in CBM 1.3 can spam confusion, but 1.4 bumps Confusion to A2. A few Sky Priests can also cast Aim for your other mages, and maybe Orb Lightning. If you are bringing a staff of storms to help you cast Fog Warriors then the A1s can all Summon Storm Power.

I prefer a F9S9 bless as Area of Effect suggests, and you can easily get that with an imprisoned Oracle without having horrible scales. I tried Dom10, Order3, Sloth3, Heat3, Growth1, Misf2, Magic1 and it worked quite nicely. Dom10 lets you hire more sacreds. I wouldn't take Death scales with MA Mictlan because I really like the High Priests of the Sky.

Re: MA Mictlan - An Introduction
 

I did not mean to cause any confusion by being lazy with the name. :p

Re: MA Mictlan - An Introduction
 

Continueing strategy:

If you are playing CBM, depending on version owl quills might be Con-2. Either way, consider Evocation-2 as your next research goal. Fully 1/4 of your mictlan priests will be able to cast arcane probing.

Research Goals: Con-6 for skullcaps, and water boosters.which will let your couatls gate troops around. And if you don't want to wait for your pretender to wake con-6 will get you water boosters to summon tlaloques.

Thau 2, for site searching. Thau -5 for gateway.

Other than that: Conjuration.


Side note: in cbm you can take the lawgiver, and get a triple bless (air, astral water). This is an interesting route to go MP. It works fairly well and will not be expected.

Basic idea: Post up well back. Use your sacreds (with twist, high defense, and easy to mass) as a screen.

First, for archery (windguide .. enchanted arrows...arrowfend).
Later, as they are 75% shock resistant for shockwave/lightning spam.


Now one other interesting hting you can do... Ya get a reasonable number of these eagle warriors.. ya guard a skypriest or 4.

SkyPriest 1 hold hold hold Divine Blessing whatever
Skypriest 2-x hold hold hold attack Rear shockwave.

Interesting fact or 3: the commanders seem to do a better job than regular troops attacking rear. The eagles can't fly till the divine bless goes off, so you're not burning fatige flying and guarding.

And of course if you'd rather cast lightning bolts or buffs rather than holding - well I guess we'll let ya.

And you can do a 9S9A4W bless and only sleep. Which means a rapid return to blood, via tlaloques.

Sorta like a warm weather caelum.

Now, I don't like it as much as regular jag warriors. Eagles die in droves. And you have to completely change how you think ... instead of avoiding archers (like regular F/w jags - plow right in). On the other hand - you can't go toe to toe (with anything) its your sky priests that are provinding the firepower.

Liberal use of mictlans very cheap 7/2 slinger recommended. So they can't hit the broad side of a barn... they can't hit you either.

Re: MA Mictlan - An Introduction
 

CBM 1.5 (as it is) made the Lawgiver a no-brainer (starting dom 3, S2 instead of S1).

I'd argue for a minor B4 bless instead of W4. You already have two damage avoidance blesses with A9S9, and B4 makes your eagle warriors deal 15+14 damage per turn.

Re: MA Mictlan - An Introduction
 

Finally, I never mentioned why I like the D3 with turmoil and neutral to positive luck:

It potentially solves two of your magic holes.

Necromancers (d2) will come and bring you troops. And finally troll kings will come and kick your butt... Either enslave a troll king (difficult to do) or enslave a troll (easy to do)
and GOR him.

Niche... but...

Tada! E3.

Re: MA Mictlan - An Introduction
 

The Lawgiver is certainly an improvement, but I still don't see how his base qualities, aside from Astral, are all that helpful. MA Mictlan's mainstay, the Eagle Warrior, has too few HP to benefit from an N bless, and because of it's tactical flying, doesn't need an A blessing to avoid missile-fire. And I'd think you'd still need either F9 or D9 for an offensive punch, and that starts to get expensive on the Lawgiver platform.

Speaking of offensive punch, which do folks prefer for MA Mictlan, fire or death? I think there was a thread a while back discussing the relative merits of both, but what are people's thoughts on that regarding Mictlan specifically?

IMO, with death over fire, you give up a good amount of early game firepower, but death seems like it will still be relevant later on, when fire begins to be neutralized by high level magic and/or forged items. Plus with all your sacred mage-priests, you'll be causing a lot more afflictions.

Does anyone know if the death blessing affliction chance works with the Jaguar Toad's poison spit, or the Monster Toad's poison aura? And did anyone satisfactorily determine if it works with Seeking Arrow (there were tests, but I don't know if any were done against large HP targets)?

Re: MA Mictlan - An Introduction
 

As D9 bless is MR damage (and does not come with attack bonus), its effect is even more negligible later on. So for late game a minor FB bless is better (and cheaper).

Re: MA Mictlan - An Introduction
 

Wow. An excellent guide!

And the consequent discussion was also marvelous. Lot's of great ideas.

I think all are viable but personally I liked MB's build the most.

Re: MA Mictlan - An Introduction
 

I was the one who did the Seeking Arrows tests, and re-doing the Death Bless part of it has been on my to-do list for a few weeks now. Shockingly, my recent Dominions time has had to be spent actually playing the game instead of tesing the mechanics :shock:

A disgraceful turn of events for sure :)

Re: MA Mictlan - An Introduction
 

LOL, no worries, gives us something to look forward to :)

As far as a death vs fire bless goes, I assumed it would be fire that suffered more in the late game, as with spells like Army of Gold/Warriors of Muspelheim, the threat from fire can be completely neutered, but the threat from death can only be mitigated with anti-magic spells and items - with open ended die rolls, the threat can never be completely eliminated.

Re: MA Mictlan - An Introduction
 

Interesting discussions, so many options!

In terms of the offensive blesses..

Fire vs Death

I've tried running death blesses a few times and it really never does it for me.. MR isn't really all that harder to boost than FR when you're talking about a fairly easy check - Antimagic will do the trick. And the attack bonus is huge, especially given that you want to use an offensive bless on units that have multiple attacks.

Causing afflictions with area of effect spells seems like an excellent idea, but in general it doesn't change the course of a battle that much, whereas the F9 bless can be devastating, especially early game

The only reason to take a death bless over fire is for the death magic itself, naturally D9 offers up a lot more options than F9. Also if one was only taking a single bless you typically have a D3 base option for a cheap D9, whereas there isn't much Fire on offer

Fire vs Blood

Blood is normally regarded as the poorer cousin of blesses, and the lvl 9 bonus is certainly pretty lame, but the lower levels are pretty good for mictlan. Adding 2 or 4 strength adds a lot of punch to already strong units, and combines well with a minor fire bless without hitting the huge cost.

What is particularly nice is that (in CBM) the Fountain of Blood gives you Blood 3 for zero points pretender cost and a dom of 4, which also makes the high dom you want very cheap. The in-built 3 blood slaves/turn and hunting bonus means you get into blood very quickly once he is around. Immobility is a pain but not a big drama if you patrol, particularly if you are able to run some Growth.

I haven't played around with it but would think you could go dormant with B6F4-6 and have fantastic scales with an easy in to blood early on, while still giving your sacreds some decent punch. With the research you can accumulate with good scales that opens up other paths with the high level blood summons. Alternately imprison him and open up another path to level 4, such as earth (blood stones, father illearth)

Re: MA Mictlan - An Introduction
 

It's my guide, figured I should chime in at some point.

For offensive power, a fire bless tends to be more effective then a death bless for both the early and late game. You should also keep in mind that a high attack value combined with the spear has defensive potential as well.

Blood is the ideal way to increase damage potential. Dragar pretty much covers why.

Does a death bless increase affliction from poison damage? From what I've heard, it does. It has been recorded before with reference to the sacred Hydras of LA Pythium. The death bless adds affliction to both the poison from normal attacks and from the area effect surrounding them.

There are merits to an Air bless for eagle warrior and jaguar warriors. Archery does tend to be their bane and you should ignore the potential damage avoided when neither dart spam occurs. However, Mictlan has easy access to Arrow Fend somewhere around mid-game.

Re: MA Mictlan - An Introduction
 

Well, I will say that you do notice the lack of attack bonus without a fire bless. Honestly, with an S9D9 blessing, I've found the most dangerous indies to be not elephants or heavy cavalry, but horse-tribesmen - with their high defense, your Eagle Warriors w/o a fire bonus just can't hit and kill them fast enough, and with two attacks (CBM?) of their own, the horsemen can quickly knock down your Twist Fate and inflict significant casualties.

But I'm wondering if anyone thinks, or has anecdotal evidence, that the 'fringe benefits' make up for the lack of attack-power in the Eagle Warriors. I mean, depending on what the death bless works on, Mictlan has a whole range of units that might benefit, such as:

Seeking Arrow on a Shrouded High Priest of the Sky has been mentioned.

And AoE thinks it might work with the sacred poison froggies.

Sun Warriors now throw affliction causing javelins before they enter melee - might make this otherwise forgotten unit worth looking at?

Sky Priests with a Bow of War are, in CBM, throwing 18 Aimed affliction causing arrows downrange - 5 of 'em shooting a cloud of 90 a round might be nice, on this otherwise not very useful unit?

Perhaps a reverse-communion of 4 or so N2/N3 Couatles (w/ boosters/Power of the Spheres?) blasting away with affliction causing Storm of Thorns? Or even Breath of the Dragon/Poison Cloud if that works with a death bless too?

And I'm sure there's plenty more.

Although I'm tempted to fool around with some alternate offensive blesses - F4B4, or maybe even F4D4B4, with or w/out S9.

Re: MA Mictlan - An Introduction
 

Did you notice my note a few posts back about an alternate strategy with the lawgiver?

It absolutely does. I did a series of tests with Cohens with death blesses.

The cloud poison with the death afflictions was causing disease - sometimes even to myself if I remember correctly.

Re: MA Mictlan - An Introduction
 

Chris, my only problem is that your strategy relies heavily on a single capitol only commander. This is problematic because you need your other capitol only mage-priests in order to enhance your magic diversity. The number of sky priests available for combat will always be much lower then you desire. Then compound the problem by placing those priests on the front line and, by extension, increase their fatality rate.

Re: MA Mictlan - An Introduction
 

Well, its not my favorite strategy- but not for the reasons you name.

First, I apologize for laziness. You only *need* one Sky High Priests. All the other priests can be regular sky priests.

Look essentially what is happening is this:

You have a skypriests that is an 70 gp sacred 1A caster.
You have a sacred highpriest 2A1x?YH3 that can divine blessing.
Toss in a 2s moon priest and this is what you get:

You can either just have your sky priests attack rear and spam shockwave, or you can ground your guys with storm, summon air power and spam 3a orb lightning.

very effective and very powerful leveraging of cheap available everywhere sky priests.


Each of your 1As are now 3a's due to storm power and pots.