How do you do that, Dragonlord?
 

I've just been browsing through the statistics of all PBW-games and could not help but noticing, that you are the leading player in nearly every game you're playing where I could see the statistics.

If it's not a secret: How do you do that?

Re: How do you do that, Dragonlord?
 

Gorgo,

I am flattered that you would think I am such an experienced player that I always make it to the first ranking. I am actually in second place in 2 games where statistics are turned on, and am first in the Spiralus and Dark Wars game.

My strategy? Well, it's a combination of many factors, luck being one of them.
Starting position is *very* important, in fact in the next game I host I will pre-generate the map and fix the starting position of all players so that everybody has an equal shot at success.

I also tend to research Appled Research II and Minerals II early on, to save me the time of upgrading facilities later. I try to make T&R alliances with everyone, and have a good economy going. I spend racial points on things like political ability (more trade) and ship maintenance. I usually have many ships, which count (too) heavily in score.
In the beginning of a game I set all my starting planets on emergency build to make colonisers in one turn, and build a few space stations. By the time my planets go in slow mode my new colonies have spaceyards and can take up the slack, while my space stations make Mines, which is my primary defense in the early game. I've stopped wasting time on satelites, and often skip Fighters too. I pay a lot of attention to all the numbers and micromanage a lot, e.g. get 100 population minimun on all planets for that small bonus in construction capacity.

At the end of the day, these games are all about juggling the numbers to your advantage, something I like to do.
The second best part is the diplomatic roleplaying you get in multiplayer PBW games.

Hope that helps,

Dragonlord

Re: How do you do that, Dragonlord?
 

"Well, it's a combination of many factors, luck being one of them"

Like how you came down on my being-retrofitted fleet? http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon7.gif

"I will pre-generate the map and fix the starting position of all players so that everybody has an equal shot at success."

You'll need to know everyone's planet types and air type first, though.

Phoenix-D

Re: How do you do that, Dragonlord?
 

You don't necessarily need to know the planet types of players in order to give them fair starting positions. When you define a planet as a player's starting position in the map editor, the planet automatically changes to the atmosphere and type of the race that starts there.

The _size_ of the planet doesn't change, however. So make sure all planets are the same size. Alternatively, place the starting position markers in empty sectors; the game will automatically create homeworlds of the predefined starting size in that case.

Oh, and one more caveat; ringworlds and sphereworlds that are used as starting points will turn into Huge planets instead, but only if the atmosphere and type doesn't match that of the player. If you want a race to start on a sphereworld then you _do_ need to keep careful track of what planet type they require. But this is a special case that is unlikely to come up often in conventional games.

Re: How do you do that, Dragonlord?
 

Beedee, thanks for that info. I still have to figure out *how* to place those markers though, I haven't really explored the map editor yet.

Gorgo, you're better off asking these guys (Beedee and Phoenix) for their strategies, they are much more experienced players than I am.

(and yes, the occasional bit of big luck like with Phoenix's fleet being retrofitted does help in getting into 1st place :-)

Re: How do you do that, Dragonlord?
 

Thanks, Dragonlord - you've made some really interesting points.

"I am actually in second place in 2 games where statistics are turned on, and am first in the Spiralus and Dark Wars game."

Yeh, and I if someone else is first, it's Shujo. How does Shujo play? Maybe if he reads this, he can contribute some of his strategies.

Thanks for your insights, I've just learnt a great deal.

I'm currently in three games, War and Diplomacey features you (2nd) and Shujo (1st).

In Ender's game, we're at the year 2406 and not a single combat has occured. It is obviously a great risk in this game to attack someone while not knowing if others will turn against you.

How do you people decide if it's time for war? What has to happen that you choose to attack someone?

Re: How do you do that, Dragonlord?
 

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>How do you people decide if it's time for war? What has to happen that you choose to attack someone?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>In my first PBW game, I maintained peaceful relations until I ran out of colonizable worlds in my claimed space. That game had Allied Scores turned on, so I knew that my two neighbors were in 1st and 3rd to my 4th. I decided to expel 3rd from a system that I had colonized first, and seize the two worlds he'd colonized.

In my second PBW game, I joined a partner's war against an AI that happened to claim most of the systems that still had colonizable planets available. In that case, I just poked at the AI until it declared war. Since then, I haven't been the one to declare war first, so I haven't had to make the decision.

------------------
Cap'n Q

The most merciful thing in the world, I think, is the inability of the
human mind to correlate all of its contents. We live on a placid
island of ignorance in the midst of black seas of infinity, and it was
not meant that we should go far. -- HP Lovecraft, "The Call of Cthulhu"

Re: How do you do that, Dragonlord?
 

When to go to war? Depends on the victory conditions. If those call for galactic domination then all alliances are temporary, though they may Last for over 5 years. Usually when I run out of room to expand I pick a target which is close by and a threat to my frontier, and start provoking them. However I must do this in-char (roleplaying) so it isn't always easy, unless you play a xenophobic berzerker race http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon7.gif
What sometimes works against humans is demand they give you stuff or reduce their fleets or such until they get fed up an break their treaty http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon7.gif Or, make friends with an enemy of your target and find a reason to help that enemey against your target, e.g. if you are merchants you could say you were bribed with promises of tech and colonisation rights...
etc etc, be creative :-)

Re: How do you do that, Dragonlord?
 

Oh, I messed up something: It's Heretic who's leading in War and Diplomacy, Shujo is 8th.

Has stellar manipulation tech ever played a crucial role in one of your PBW-games, in a way that it was decisive for victory or defeat? In SE3, you could build a star destroyer or a ship with an open warp component in a really short time, now it's taking forever. Do you guys really use this tech area on PBW, or do you concentrate on building stuff that can fight?

Gorgo

Re: How do you do that, Dragonlord?
 

stuff that can fight. i only build that stuff in huge games against the AI where i want to wipe out their systems and dont have time to deal with all the planets.

on the other hand, in high tech games on PBW, i could see the warp point components coming into play a great deal, maybe even star destroyers if the game was running long. basically tho, star destroyers would only be worthwhile if planets were too well defended to crack with less than 50 or so ships. I would guess that any low-cost technology game that ran over 200 turns would see alot of SM.

------------------
"...the green, sticky spawn of the stars"
(with apologies to H.P.L.)

Re: How do you do that, Dragonlord?
 

stuff that can fight. i only build that stuff in huge games against the AI where i want to wipe out their systems and dont have time to deal with all the planets.

on the other hand, in high tech games on PBW, i could see the warp point components coming into play a great deal, maybe even star destroyers if the game was running long. basically tho, star destroyers would only be worthwhile if planets were too well defended to crack with less than 50 or so ships. I would guess that any low-cost technology game that ran over 200 turns would see alot of SM.

------------------
"...the green, sticky spawn of the stars"
(with apologies to H.P.L.)

Re: How do you do that, Dragonlord?
 

I'm 8th in Diplowar because I surrendered for personal reasons http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon9.gif

Well Dragonlord and I appear to be doing mostly the same things. I must thank you for starting this thread cause now I know what his secret is http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/ima...ons/icon12.gif

Anyway, here's what I tend to do in games...
1) Get increased mineral extraction because you can never have too many minerals in a game
2) Get increased ship construction to crank out ships faster
3) Get advanced storage because more facilities = more resources
4) Never let surplus resources go to waste. Some people build storage facilities. I tend to build/retrofit ships, and then build storage only if I can't spend my surplus.
5) Units are a waste. Fighters are point defense fodder. Satelites are just for cloak detection. Don't bother with mines unless there's AI in the game, or you want an invisible scout between you and the enemy. When a human player attacks, he usually brings a couple of sweepers with him.
6) Trade colonization tech as early on as possible. If you delay, somebody else is gonna get the tech.
7) If there's AI grab their colonization tech then declare war as soon as you're ready. They're only taking up space on planets you could be using. Not to mention your very existence is usually good enough reason for them to declare war. No need to let such scum live http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/ima...ons/icon12.gif
8) (optional) Get organic tech - This tech lets you crank out ships at a cheap cost FAST. Dreadnoughts in 3 turns without emergency build or SY III is possible. Since most people use PPBs, Organic armor gives you quite an edge.

I don't declare war unless one empire is building too many ships or colonizing too many planets. Other people are most likely worried about it as well, so there won't be any shortage of allies.

Stellar manipulation - I haven't been in a game that Lasted long enough for this to be of any use. It's usually Last on my list of research priorities. Monoliths take too long to build, other techs are too expensive to research.

Re: How do you do that, Dragonlord?
 

You surrendered in Diplowar? Your empire is not marked as dead yet, so this comes as a surprise!

That part about trading colonization tech raises some questions: How do you get humans to trade that, as it immediately produces competition in colonizing the same planet types? I would think twice to trade this tech, unless the other player is at the other end of the galaxy.

What about weapon platforms? I used to think they're good for their range and power (and zero maintenance), and as you can't do the missile dance in PBW, they should be much better than any bases which tend to orbit on the wrong side of the planet when attacked. Or do you rely mainly on ships for planetary defense?

Re: How do you do that, Dragonlord?
 

Should show up next turn. It probably hasn't shown up as dead because it takes a turn to send a message, and another turn for it to be accepted.

I used to think just like you, until in one game I found myself being the only player who didn't have more than one type of colonization tech http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon9.gif Yes, trading it does create competition, but people are generally don't establish colonies in your systems because they don't want to start any wars early on in the game. So the only competition you have is over systems that aren't yours in the first place http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon7.gif

Weapons platforms - I use them against AI if I don't have mines yet. While there's a good chance that AI will attack your planets, the exact opposite seems to be true with people. Even human players that are psychotic berserkers don't want wars so early on in the game.

Re: How do you do that, Dragonlord?
 

I have been reading this thread with interest, and thought I would inject some of my own pbw thoughts (hopefully I don't intrude too much).

1: Weapon choices: VERY important, watch out for Engine Overloading Weapons, can be deadly!! (I always use them, very good against those who rely on short ranged weapons such as null-space). Don't rely on PPB too much, players develop Phased Shields earlier than the AI, APB almost seems a better choice (more range).

2: Armor: Definite must, stealth armor can decide a game early.

3: planet busting weapons: Plague bombs and such, good but watch out, using plagues seems to get everyone in a tizzy!

4: Shipyards! I tend to have one on almost every planet! (and watch out that you don't have only one Space Port per system, if it gets knocked out you could lose resources fast, getting half your fleet scrapped!!).

5: Planet/atmosphere type & Racial abilities. Very important to choose the right mix. I usually go for rock or Ice with none for atmosphere, moons everywhere!!, but Gas has min size of medium so they are good as well. If you do go for rock/ice none then the racial bonus for more storage/facilities is a must!!

Anyway, hope I havn't rambled too much, and hope I provided some points to ponder....if not just ignore and continue http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/ima...ons/icon12.gif....

------------------
"And what the hell would you know about sanity?" demanded Beatrice. "There are depressed lemmings on the edge of cliffs who've got a better grasp on reality than you have. And more common sense."--Simon R. Green 'Deathstalker Rebellion'.

"We are all...the sum of our scars"....(paraphrased) Matt. R. Stover-'Blade of Tyshalle'.

Re: How do you do that, Dragonlord?
 

While I like APBs (very cheap) myself, I've heard some compelling arguments why PPBs are better.

Even without the shield-penetrating ability they're good weapons in and of themselves. There's a table somewhere on this forum which shows that PPBs have one of the best damage/firing rate per kiloton ratios of all weapons.

PPBs cost the same to research as APBs (not including the cost for getting Physics II), and deal significantly better damage at equivalent levels. You need at least APB VIII or IX before you can even begin to compare its damage to PPBs.

Re: How do you do that, Dragonlord?
 

I liked the combo of Rock/none with Advanced Storage Techniques when Shoujo mentioned it to me (the moons! of course !) but now I am in 3 games with that race setup, and seems like *everybody* is doing it now, which causes a lot of competition for planets. It also makes it harder to find a human player you can exchange colonists with (cheap way to avoid atmosphere converters), and I sometimes have a hard time convincing a Gas player that his Gas tech is worth less than my Rock tech, (in a trade) because I cannot get breathable Gas planets while he can get breathable rocks.

Re: How do you do that, Dragonlord?
 

You've brought up an interesting point... In one game both my neighbors have rock/none http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon9.gif I wouldn't be willing to give up the moon advantage, so no gas for me. I've been considering going ice/none. Only problem is I'm not sure how common ice planets/moons are. In every game I play I have the odd feeling that for whatever reason there aren't enough planets of my type http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/ima...ons/icon12.gif

In case you're reading this Deathstalker, how lucky have you been finding ice/none planets or moons?

If only I could find that one tabe (which I foolishly did not link) which had a full listing of the ratios of get rock/gas/ice planets and the various atmospheres you would be likely to see in a game...

Re: How do you do that, Dragonlord?
 

Hrmph. I chose rock/none and advanced storage for very good roleplaying reasons; my race were a race of self-replicating industrial robots that had originally created to do space exploration and development for an organic species. I was rock/none+adv. storage _before_ it was cool! http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon7.gif

I think that ultimately the best atmosphere/planet type to choose for your race is "the one that nobody else is using in that particular game." Good luck guessing. http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon7.gif

Re: How do you do that, Dragonlord?
 

Planet finding is almost luck...One game I chose Ice/None, there were three huge Ice/None in my home system, all with moons, a few of them even Ice!!. I honestly don't know if if depends on the system chosen though, I usually go for spiral, and my other (rare) choice is cluster. I've been playing Rock/None on average almost every game since I started playing back in October, but lately I have been picking other combos just to see what it is like.

And yes, sometimes having the atmosphere/planet type no-one has is THE edge in the game, like Pukes Junkyard game, I believe everyone mostly chose rock, a few chose Ice but I think only one chose gas. It is set on only colonize own planet/atmosphere, That 'gas guy' has a huge advantage, esp since EVERY planet has tech left behind to discover, and NO research is allowed.....but as usual, I digress.... http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/ima...ons/icon12.gif

------------------
"And what the hell would you know about sanity?" demanded Beatrice. "There are depressed lemmings on the edge of cliffs who've got a better grasp on reality than you have. And more common sense."--Simon R. Green 'Deathstalker Rebellion'.

"We are all...the sum of our scars"....(paraphrased) Matt. R. Stover-'Blade of Tyshalle'.

Re: How do you do that, Dragonlord?
 

Not quite Beedee..in newbie 2, I went Co2, rock; I figured no one picked it. Aside from the AI races, that is, since 3 of em used it.

Anyway, it was a pain to find any Co2/Rock planets. Not very common at all. So choosing the type no one else uses can bite you in the butt, since if your type isn't common.. your expansion is quite limited.

Phoenix-D

Re: How do you do that, Dragonlord?
 

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Deathstalker:

And yes, sometimes having the atmosphere/planet type no-one has is THE edge in the game, like Pukes Junkyard game, I believe everyone mostly chose rock, a few chose Ice but I think only one chose gas. It is set on only colonize own planet/atmosphere, That 'gas guy' has a huge advantage, esp since EVERY planet has tech left behind to discover, and NO research is allowed.....but as usual, I digress.... http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/ima...ons/icon12.gif

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yea, you don't know _HOW_ many times I've kicked myself for not being gassy in that game; I normally roleplay that race as gassy anyway. (beings of pure energy evolving on a solid planet just didn't feel right to me...) But no, I had to be greedy and try for all those moons....

To quote a now famous phrase, "D'oh!"

[This message has been edited by dumbluck (edited 18 August 2001).]

Re: How do you do that, Dragonlord?
 

Finally found the table Shoujo was talking about (I think).... Daynarr posted a spreadsheet here that lists the relative occurrence of each planet type.

If I'm interpreting it correctly, it means:

--you'll have more available planets being rock/any air (though rock/CH4 seems to have a slight advantage, for some reason). But, 75% will be medium or smaller.

--you'll have more large and huge planets being gas/any. But, you'll have half as many available planets as a rocky type.

--if you're ice/any air, you'll have just over half as many ice planets available as there are rocks, and a little more than half are small or tiny (oxygen has a slight advantage, methane a slight disadvantage).

--if you choose airless, you'll have a little more than half as many rock planets or about three-quarters as many ice planets to choose from than if you had picked an air to breathe. Presumably moons are not figured into these figures as they are not considered planets.

From my own limited PBW experience (eight human empires encountered), I've seen two ice and six rocks; and five O2, two none, and a single H2. The majority is rock/O2. This is why I never pick oxygen. http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon7.gif

So why pick Ice? Simple: more than likely you will find someone willing to trade colonization tech. More than likely they'll be rock. More than likely you'll more than double your available planets. http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon6.gif

So, let's get some more variety out there! (Speaking of which, how about some more atmospheres, like nitrogen, sulfur dioxide, chlorine, or radon?)

Quikngruvn

------------------
Stay alert. Trust no one. Keep your laser handy.
--from the RPG Paranoia, now my PBW mantra

Re: How do you do that, Dragonlord?
 

While that spreadsheet wasn't what I had in mind (though the stuff I read was probably based on that spreadsheet), it does give me the data I was looking for. Thank you Quikngruvn http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon7.gif I do wish the spreadsheet included moons though...

I think I'm going to try ice, but I'm going to have a really hard time thinking of a way to justify how my physically weak, soft-bodied insectoids can live on an ice planet with freezing temperatures... Insects and freezing weather just don't go together.

Re: How do you do that, Dragonlord?
 

Easy; they just _look_ like insects. They're actually delicate, beautiful creatures with liquid ammonia blood and exoskeletons made of transparent crystalline water-ice that scintilates in their homeworld's dim white sunlight. They speak with chiming tones and make a sound like tinkling glass as they dance across the glacial plains and swooping arches of their cities.

And then give them a bloodthirsty, xenophobic culture dedicated to chaos and destruction. Make it your trademark to radiation-bomb enemy homeworlds, use plague weapons, the whole nine yards.

I love coming up with races. http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon7.gif

Re: How do you do that, Dragonlord?
 

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>So, let's get some more variety out there! (Speaking of which, how about some more atmospheres, like nitrogen, sulfur dioxide, chlorine, or radon?)<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>The atmosphere types are hardcoded, so you'll have to wait for a patch or SE V. <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>That part about trading colonization tech raises some questions: How do you get humans to trade that, as it immediately produces competition in colonizing the same planet types? I would think twice to trade this tech, unless the other player is at the other end of the galaxy.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>"Sphere of influence" agreements help with that, if you can easily agree on where the border should be.

I tend to pick planet and atmosphere just to roleplay the race rather than for strategic advantage. My solo game Tiktsin are intelligent plants evolved from a lichen; they were Icy/CO2 long before I read that it was the least common combo in the game. My Rrurrr are Rock/Oxy because I originally created them to be the native race of a human-colonizable world in my theoretical GURPS Space tabletop RPG campaign. The Mi-Go are Icy/Methane because they're traditionally from Pluto in the Lovecraft Mythos.



------------------
Cap'n Q

The most merciful thing in the world, I think, is the inability of the
human mind to correlate all of its contents. We live on a placid
island of ignorance in the midst of black seas of infinity, and it was
not meant that we should go far. -- HP Lovecraft, "The Call of Cthulhu"

Re: How do you do that, Dragonlord?
 

Beautiful but deadly... I like that BeeDee. Unfortunately I'll let you take a shot at being bloodthirsty. In my very first PBW game I picked Berserkers (for the combat advantage till I learned it was bugged) and tried to RP, but that fell apart after the first few turns. I found myself actually liking my neighbors, so I couldn't declare war on them *sigh*

I got myself thinking, would it be possible for winged creatures to fly in a no-atmosphere planet...? I might have to revise that description...

Re: How do you do that, Dragonlord?
 

Winged creatures, no. Wings need some sort of medium (gas or liquid) to push against. However, you could equip your species with biological "rockets" instead. For a RL example, look up Bombadier beetles; they use glands in their abdomen to produce two chemicals which, when mixed together, react violently and bLast a jet of boiling-hot acid and steam at whatever's annoying them. Your insectoids could use rocket assists for jumping and changing course in mid-leap, which is as close as you can get to "flying" in a vaccum.

Note that this kind of thing would be biologically "expensive," and so probably couldn't be done for long continuous stretches of time. They'd be rocket-powered grasshoppers rather than eagles.

Re: How do you do that, Dragonlord?
 

Ugh... I think I'll make em live underground like ants rather than be grasshoppers with rockets...

Re: How do you do that, Dragonlord?
 

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>would it be possible for winged creatures to fly in a no-atmosphere planet...?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>H.P. Lovecraft's Mi-Go could fly better in interplanetary vacuum than in a thick atmosphere like Earth's. Maybe the wings are used as miniature solar sails? (Of course, conventional physics doesn't apply to Mi-Go anyway; they can't be photographed with normal film, for example.)

------------------
Cap'n Q

The most merciful thing in the world, I think, is the inability of the
human mind to correlate all of its contents. We live on a placid
island of ignorance in the midst of black seas of infinity, and it was
not meant that we should go far. -- HP Lovecraft, "The Call of Cthulhu"

Re: How do you do that, Dragonlord?
 

Doh I just thought of an easy solution...I could simply make my race live on a planet with an atmosphere for once. Won't have to worry about twisting the laws of physics or making em grasshopper with rockets this way http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon7.gif

Re: How do you do that, Dragonlord?
 

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by BeeDee10:
Hrmph. I chose rock/none and advanced storage for very good roleplaying reasons; my race were a race of self-replicating industrial robots that had originally created to do space exploration and development for an organic species. I was rock/none+adv. storage _before_ it was cool! http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon7.gif

I think that ultimately the best atmosphere/planet type to choose for your race is "the one that nobody else is using in that particular game." Good luck guessing. http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon7.gif<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

BD: Read James Hogan much? &lt;EG&gt;

LL

Re: How do you do that, Dragonlord?
 

I love Hogan. Ever read NASA Conference Publication 2255 (Advanced Automation for Space Missions) http://www.islandone.org/MMSG/aasm/ ? It's what gave Hogan the idea for Code of the Lifemaker, and I just happen to be the obsessive freak that scanned the relevant chapter and converted it to HTML for that website. http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon7.gif

I don't think I'll be playing the Irha-Nrr again for a little while anyway, though; after all the abuse they've been through at the Dragons' hands in the two games I've played with him I'm afraid they've gone completely insane. Time to give them a rest and let some of my other races play.