Icon0099.shp
 

Dear Don, Mobhack and the rest of the SPCAMO Team,

I was admiring the work done on the Chinese Heavies u.s.w when a frightening thought krept into my mind. I already have an Icon0099.shp folder, full of interesting icons btw, in my mod (Das Reich).

I of course updated my vanilla version of the game, hence I saw those beauties but, as I like to keep my mod up to date I have hit upon a snag. You see I have created a whole host of icon files in the last few years. About a month ago I reached a milestone. Icon0120.shp, to be precise.

This has raised a few problems. Now of course not all the previous icons are mine, Icons 100 - 102 are yours and a few others are from the Cold War 2020 mod.

The $60,000 question here is, is it possible to go beyond icon0022.shp? If so then how?

I gave it a shot once before and the last thing I saw was that Soviet Tank Destroyer (SPG or whatever) and that was it. I fear I might just have reached capacity on this one.

If so, then I suppose, as I have new Panzer V icons etc I could start replacing the old ones u.s.w. Any thoughts?

Anyhow, I just wanted to let you chaps know that the work you have done, that I have seen thus far, is stellar. Good Work!

Re: Icon0099.shp
 

If you look at the WINSPMBT_MasterIconList.txt you will see there is currently room for 4697 icons in the MBT SHP files. The only way to go higher is if I add new slots to the code and I have no immediate plans on need to expand that number beyond what you see on that list.

Don

Re: Icon0099.shp
 

Do you have any suggestions as to empty slots?

Re: Icon0099.shp
 

What about the modding community? I know I don't speak for myself when I say that the remaining .SHP files open to exploitation can quickly be used up. Just by creating different camo patterns for existing units that lack a winter or desert scheme uses up a load of space.

Re: Icon0099.shp
 

It is not our task to keep track of third-party efforts. That is the third party's job.

Therefore after any release, it is up to those third parties to check that any shape file slots used, scenario slots, OOB changes and so forth that affect their mod in the official release are dealt with by a new mod version as necessary.

Cheers
Andy

Re: Icon0099.shp
 

No one ever said, or even suggested, you needed to keep track of the third party mods. Obviously its our, the modders, job to do so. They are our mods after all. My point is it wouldn't hurt to have had, or better yet to have, a little bit more space for new .shp files.

Those of us who are doing big projects need extra space; which by the way don't just benefit ourselves but the community as a whole as the icons and things we create get used (if we decide to release them, which we invariably do) by others including yourselves; otherwise thats the end of the line for development right there.

I personally have used and created a large amount of icons. I am sure that I am not the only one.

Now of course I could go and find the BMPs etc that were already in-game and replace them with newer altogether better looking ones or I could dig around and replace every single piece of German kit still in the game with newer more colourful and accurate versions but then that would be terribly laborious and very limiting.

Limiting, of course, because if, like me, you insist on having a field grey, camo, desert and winter scheme for as many of your vehicles as possible and if you insist on trying to portray something approaching evolution in the design of your vehicles then thats a whole load of space used up right there.

What you are both basically saying is that its not your problem and we can go to hell, for the time being. What do you suggest, we start hacking up the in-game shape files?As it is the extra icons I have added on were always, well almost, tacked on to the end to avoid having to ruin anything that SPCAMO had produced. Now I can't do that anymore and soon enough other people will encounter smilar difficulties.

Re: Icon0099.shp
 

We simply cannot take into consideration what any third parties do with the game data, since merely keeping track of the official data is a big enough chore of a job.

Therefore - any third party modder will have to adopt a change strategy that takes future official changes into account. There are no "reserved for modders" sections of any of the game data - and even if there were, then modder A would be clashing with modders B and C etc.

Changed OOBS and sound files are really the only supported end user modification to core game data, with the OOB swapper utility there to allow selection of the appropriate changed data set (e.g. for a scenario that uses one). Once you start playing around with other core game data like SHP files and AI pick lists that is not designed for end-user modification , then that is game hacking and therefore not the game designer's responsibility to make any allowances for in any future release. Therefore, any new release will likely require a new version of any game mod that involves hacked data, just like any other game does (e.g. hacks for the Sims).

Cheers
Andy

Re: Icon0099.shp
 

The Icons slots available were set up the way they are so that we, the game designers, would have enough empty spots to add Icons in the future without having to expand that list every time we issued a patch as we had done in the early days. The added slots were NOT added so that third party modders could stake out a claim to them. We have said a number of times over the years that those empty slots are for our use and that I would NOT set aside blocks of Icons for anyone and I have no intention of changing that policy.

Don

Re: Icon0099.shp
 

So what is the point of moding the game then? Why bother? Why do any of us bother? Wouldn't it be a good idea to make the game mod friendlier then? Or at least to keep that in mind?

After all from what you just wrote, what you are basically saying is, ,,thanks guys but no thanks".

So all the people who produce icons are really just being a terrible nuisance and are nothing more than hackers then? Using programmes provided (CHLANDA's SHP file editor etc) with the game but to no avail?

Thatguy 96's Vietnam mod, the Cold War 2020 mod, my mod, Plasma's work, my work, Pierre's work, Oragus' work and everyne else's is really just a waste of time. After all eventually there will, according to your logic, be no space for it at all, right? Wouldn't it make a little more sense to provide extra space for you and for everyone else too? I think that might be a very popular idea.

Oh, and that argument about modders' conflicting interests is redundant as all you have to do is copy the game files and hey presto you have a nice clean version of the game to install a mod onto. Thats why I have multiple copies of MBT and WW2 on my PC.

Re: Icon0099.shp
 

Why provide the end user with the empty slots then? You would have to update the master icon list everytime you added new stuff anyway wouldn't you? Why also provide blank .shp files to the end user as well? Either you want us to be able to add icons or you don't!

Re: Icon0099.shp
 

One thing came to my mind as I followed this topic... Ok, now I can only copy modded OOBs via main window/manage OOB sets (or take off from use to choose defaults if wanted) but is it any way possible to add same function for shps too into future patches? Maybe just adding "default shps" folder etc.?

Re: Icon0099.shp
 

Well, as far as I can tell, that wouldn't even be necessary as Don stated that all they would have to do is programme in some new slots (like they did in the past).

Put it this way, the only reason we (those of us who mod) have reached capacity (will reach, for those not quite there yet) is because the next slots haven't been programmed in. Capacity has therefore only artificially been reached.

What you are refering to was done with SPWAW, another Steel Panthers game (WW2) whose internal workings I am a little more familiar with.

Re: Icon0099.shp
 

I still would love a .shp function similar to that of the OOB replacement function. It would allow for more flexibility with this "artificial limit," and easier rapid testing of new icons.

Re: Icon0099.shp
 

I have had great success with Jones Software Generic Mod Enabler (JSGME) with the other games that I play and mod. Might work for what you want.

Re: Icon0099.shp
 

That wouldn't help though would it. For testing sure. Good Idea it saves having to have more than one copy of the game. Great, but...

It might help if you are only modding in one or two .shp files but if you've got 15 of the damn things and apparently X number have already been overwritten in the latest patch then you are up a well know creak without a paddle if 120 is as far as you can go.

Re: Icon0099.shp
 

I have four modded .shp files for my total conversion pack, none of which were altered by the most recent patch. If you're out of space its no doubt because as you've said you're looking to have a plethora of specific icons. While I can understand the desire, for the average person, it would be nice to have the ability to rapidly change .shps, especially when installing mods. Patches are always going to cause headaches for modders, and shifting icons is probably the most tedious exercise.

Re: Icon0099.shp
 

I heartily agree, the problem is the developers seem to view our efforts as thoroughly trivial and seemingly think they are not worth supporting, hence they refuse to produce dedicated extra space which forces those of us with lots of icons and big plans further and further into a corner. A corner which will become progressively tighter and force our work into obsolesence.

If Don and the gang had not wanted us to mod the game then why were all those things, previously mentioned, freely available to us in the end product? CH LANDA's Shape editor of course could have been gotten hold of, but that still doesn't explain the two template icon files and the other stuff.

Wouldn't it make more sense to create a surplus of X thousand Icons for the modding community to play around on top of what there is already? I very much doubt they would all get used up by the game itself, if enough distance was put between game units and modded ones, or at least if the potential for distance was there.

Its not like a request to re-invent the wheel is being made.

Re: Icon0099.shp
 

Although, as is often the case it seems to be being treated as such.

Re: Icon0099.shp
 

I feel like if it was as simple as just changing a single number in the code, a very large number would've been picked from the start. There has to be a reason why this wasn't done from the start, and I imagine the process of changing the number and potentially of formatting the requisite icon files, to be tedious and lengthy.

Re: Icon0099.shp
 

We'll never know, will we.

Re: Icon0099.shp
 

Good idea with that ,,Mod Advisory" btw. Good thing I followed those exact guidelines... oh wait, still doesn't help us with the limited space problem.

Re: Icon0099.shp
 

Go ahead... keep being a smartass and see what it gets you.

Don

Re: Icon0099.shp
 

The Camo Workshop have stated their position on this issue, and RecruitMonty, you have fully voiced your dissatisfaction. Further trolling will not be tolerated by the owners of these boards. Locking this one down.