Hello everyone, and I could use some advice.
 

Hey everyone, new member here. Started playing Dominions 3 just less than a week or so ago and I'm totally hooked.

As usual, I can't stay away from modding the game to my liking. First, it starts out slanting things in my favour just a little bit. Then when I get the hang of it, I look into editors and before I know it, I'm throwing sprites and programs around, editing textfiles by hand. Just like any game that's easily modded. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

I've done three custom pretenders so far and I usually base my sprites on already-existing ingame sprites. My last one was "The Ecclesiarch". I've got a online friend that I usually throw ideas with, back-and-forth, showing my work to.

But when I threw him that one (originally based around the Lich Queen and intentionally meant as a anti-undead character) he immediatly reacted "Totally OP". Personally, I don't see why.

Awe & Fear are both +2 and only really helps with not getting hurt. Making the unit "Sacred" is an unfortunate sideffect of being based around the "High Inquisitor"-commander; It's not intended, but since the character is supposed to be a "Pretender-by-proxy" character, I don't mind.

I deliberatly tried to make the character unique, as far as pretenders go. It gets considerable bonuses to pillage, patrol, and Fortune Telling. Immortality isn't immortality per see, but fluff-wise it's just that the pretender, as long as the "proxy" is within his domain, can flee the body and appoint a new proxy.

The 6 Priest Levels is more or less the one single reason for the high (compared to many others) cost of the character.

I JUST don't see this character as OP, except arguably when facing large amounts of undeads (6 Priest, again).

So instead of keeping up with arguing with my friend over it's supposed overpowered-ness I thought I'd throw ball with you people instead that have a better general grasp. Is it really OP? Or is it in fact UP and should have it's cost lowered? Or is it perfect?

Please, any comments would be helpful, since I always try to strive for mods that fit into the spirit of any game, albeit unique in execution. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Oh, and before I forget, my name is Varenus von Luckmann. A pleasure being here. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...es/biggrin.gif

Edit/Addenum: Here's a link to a screencap of the Ecclesiarch. Compare it to the Lich Queen (which I originally used as a base and had in mind when creating the character) and the Prince of Death which I'd be willing to consider as OP in comparisom, especially since it's actually at a LOWER cost. And with an insane +13 Fear.

Re: Hello everyone, and I could use some advice.
 

Welcome. It's nice to see a new modder. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

(This will likely cover things you know, but better to lean on the side of caution and explain more thoroughly than not, for the benefit of all.)

By default, pretenders aren't sacred... or priests.

There are reasons for that, and balance isn't even chief amongst them. Dominions consists of two major groups of units. The first being a pretender (a god by definition), and the latter being everyone else, who worships the god.

As you can see, one couldn't really pray to oneself.

The world of dominions is one where the focus is belief. Belief is a powerful, almost tangible thing. Belief is what makes the pretender god powerful. Absolute belief grants absolute power, and no belief means your pretender god goes poof (the tinkerbell effect). That is the reason your pretender god is fighting the other pretenders, to attain the belief of everyone.

In exchange for believing in your pretender, your pretender grants his/her followers powers. The very faithful who completely believe in your pretender are sacred, and there are some (priests) who spread the pretenders message and thus spread belief in the pretender.

Your pretender spreads belief (represented by your dominion) simply because well, if I saw Zeus riding his horse through my neighborhood, or Thor throwing a lightning bolt, I couldn't help but believe.

Anyway, I understand that the concept behind your unit is that it isn't actually the pretender, just an important prophet, (and this out of the box thinking is good), it is for intents and purposes a pretender (especially if one wants to think about balance).

So, after the sacred and the priest thing (and the inquisitor ability with it), there are a couple other things which stand out about your unit. First it has Magic Res. 12. Which is real low. It has protection 12, which seems to be unexplained. It has 18 hitpoints, despite being a human (humans tend to have 10, but I could see an older mage/priest-type as having 8). It also has 0 encumbrance, which is mostly reserved for undead and very powerful magical beings. Fear stands out very much on a human, as strange. Pillage and Patrol is something unlikely to come up, as those aren't really tasks for a pretender.

I recommend you look at the Dom 3 database, to see the stats of various units, to give you a better idea of how most units and pretenders are set up. Balance is a difficult thing, so don't give up.

Re: Hello everyone, and I could use some advice.
 

The Prince of death is not immortal. His dominion is lower and each path costs 10 more.

Compare with the Lich queen. Basicly she has:
+1 magic, poor amphibious, other magic, other slots
The Ecclesiarch has:
30 points cheaper, +6 holy, Inquisitor, awe and fear.

The creature type is minor, the resistences somewhat balance out, pillage and patrol are minor, unless they are insanely high (like close to 100) and likewise fortune teller is minor unless it's really high (50 or more)

Still, this 6 holy and inquisitor are a serious combination, especially with a dominion 4 Pretender. You can get 8 or even 9 dominion strength quite cheap and then it's like:
-Step into provine
-preach a turn
-dominion is yours for sure.

This ability by itself should be quite expencive but next there is te synergy with immortality.

I would definitly say: Not below 150 points, or it might be better to reduce the holy to 4 points, just to be save.

Re: Hello everyone, and I could use some advice.
 

Yes, like I said, the "Sacred" attribute of the Ecclesiarch is an unfortunate side-effect of there not being a #inquisitor command. As far as Priest levels go, it never DID make sense to me that the pretenders doesn't all have the ability to bless their faithful themselves.

I realize that Pillage and Patrol are both abilities that (along with Preaching/Inquisitor) are things the Pretender will rarely do. Which is why I made the bonuses to those considerable, so that someone would at least consider doing it at times - but in the end, it's mostly added for fluff, which is why I really don't consider it overpowered.

The reasons behind the at-times "wierd" stats for a "human" is because he was originally modeled around the Lich Queen and then somewhat "nerfed" from there. He's not as much a human anymore as the anathema of the liches, directly influenced and controlled by the "actual" pretender (much as the Oracle or Fountain of Blood are possessed by a powerful spirit) - as opposed to, say, the Great Sage or Master Druid, who are still fully human. Just very powerful humans.

For example, he also can't equip helmets or chestpieces, like most (all?) base humans can. Instead he's got 4 Misc. spots, which I attribute to his retinue.

Instead of a prophet, I suppose one should rather consider him a Jesus-figure (who was not a Prophet, but an embodiment of God) or a Pope (who is the human stand-in for God, on earth).

With, of course, the exception that THIS Pope can actually throw lightning bolts and heal wounds. All present base humans also have a lower point cost.

The question isn't really wheter he's fully human or not anymore, but wheter or not he's somewhat balanced, should have a lower point cost or higher. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Re: Hello everyone, and I could use some advice.
 

I don't think the preaching is quite as good as you think, Maraxus. I believe holy-6 ness just guarantees a successful preaching, producing 1 candle. Inquisitor won't normally even make any difference, being as the probability will already be 100%.

Re: Hello everyone, and I could use some advice.
 

Patrol, Pillage and Fortune Teller are all 20/each.

But yes, I see the point about the dominions. I wouldn't want to lower the priest level (because under all circumstances, I'd like it to be higher than any base commander, who's maximum is 5 (4 + 1 Prophet), but how about lowering initial Dominion to 2, instead of 4?

Note though, that the Ecclesiarch also have overall lower stats than the Lich Queen, with the only exception being Leadership.

Edit: Bah, spelling errors. I've been up for waaaay to long at the moment.

Re: Hello everyone, and I could use some advice.
 

Well, he'd also get a second auto-preach by virtue of being a pretender. Anyway, the aspect of the synergies is quite accurate. That awe +2 could easily become awe +5. With his area effect weapon he could start taking provinces on turn 2. He doesn't have undead vulnerabilities, and he's immortal. Being in dominion isn't a problem.

He's sacred, and so can bless himself. With an astral bless he boosts his MR, which is the weakest link.

Anyway, balancing against a POD isn't that great an idea, since a POD is considered one of the strongest pretenders available.

Re: Hello everyone, and I could use some advice.
 

First, what do you mean with second auto-preach by being a pretender? Does Pretenders automaticly preach is whatever region they are at any given time? Also, as far as I know, preaching only reaches a certain limit before it becomes ineffective(?).

While the point with Astral bless is valid, that was an aspect I hadn't considered. Although Astral Bless is, to my understanding (and personal opinion) one of the overall weakest in the entire game when it comes to blessing units.

I just wish I could actually remove "Sacred" without loosing the "Inquisitor". One is something I consider necessary to the character's flavour. The other is an inconsistant annoyance. (:()

And yeah, I tried balancing it towards the Vampire Queen, originally. I just used the PoD as an example of widely considered "Stronger" (than most) pretender at a lower cost.

Re: Hello everyone, and I could use some advice.
 

Pretenders automatically spread dominion (you could consider it preaching, for free). It's on pg 92 of the manual.

Click on a temple in game to see what's spreading dominion, and by how much.

Also, since we're talking about a lvl 6 priest, he could raise to a theoretical maximum of lvl 12 dominion (13 with a temple). Though 10 is the actual limit of dominion.

Edit:

Offhand, the best comparison is probably another immortal, living pretender, a "Bakemono Kunshu" (unit 1428).

Re: Hello everyone, and I could use some advice.
 

Ach. I know you're not trying to sound condescending. It's like technical support. "Is the computer plugged in?" & "Is the monitor turned on?". I have been playing the game for a week or so. I was merely asking because of the way you said it, like it was a double-preach. As far as I know, the Pretender is more of a mobile temple (spreading the influence not only in the province, but outwards), while preaching only increases Dominion in the province in which it's done.

Second, are you sure that priest levels actually increase the pretender's inherent spread of dominion? Since pretenders weren't originally meant to have priest levels, I find such an effect highly doubtful.

Thanks. I checked it out a bit and the only real similarity is that one fact that they are both living immortals. The Bakemono Kunshu have higher stats almost across the entire board, and have two seperate magic schools from scratch, which is important to take into consideration since it lowers the cost of raising said schools, wheras the Ecclesiarch only have one raisable school (by default).

Re: Hello everyone, and I could use some advice.
 

Ah, okay, I think I mixed up the preaching with the blood-sacrifice rules a bit. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

I would say, he needs body etheral (and thus personal luck) to expand into indies but he still is an option as awake early-game pretender (btw I usually play with indi strength 7).

The question is, whether he is fixable overpowered (read: slightly to strong) or unfixable. I think, it's clearly the first, you just need to tune it down a little bit, or increase the price somewhat and it should work.

Decreasing the initial dominion to 2 would clearly be an option. Even base dominion 3 would make it "still powerful but probably okay", my guess.

Re: Hello everyone, and I could use some advice.
 

Er, sorry about it sounding condescending. When someone says new, it's hard to tell what that really means. Besides, there are lurkers who read the forums (a few who are very new), also I find it's better to answer as completely as possible, to limit follow-up questions. (Also, a weeks' worth of gaming can vary a lot as well. To some it's 5 hours, to others 50.)

Anyway, the priest level for the pretender wouldn't make his dominion spreading any more powerful, it would just mean that he could preach in addition to his normal spread, and in your case, with preaching would automatically raise dominion by 2 (or lower enemy dom by 2). He also wouldn't have any limit placed on how he high he could preach, other than the normal dominion limit of 10.

This is true, he has nonhuman stats, but so does your guy. As for whether it's preferable to have two schools at lvl 1 or one school at lvl 2, that's entirely subjective, not the least of which is what the schools are in question. Furthermore, since each lvl you purchase is more expensive than the last, the difference between starting at lvl 2 vs. lvl 1 could be higher than the purchase cost of another lvl 1, if the end result you're looking for is a high lvl, such as 9, and the new pathcost isn't ridiculous like 80.

Anyway, the easiest way to balance something is to tweak a unit that already exists. Your unit is a bit too dissimilar to everything else, so that won't work. Other than me and others eyeballing it and coming to various conclusions (my own being that it's a bit overpowered). I'd suggest taking it for a test run. Or letting your friend play it in a MP game against you. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Re: Hello everyone, and I could use some advice.
 

Ah, some solid advice. Yeah, I was thinking of simply lowering it to 2, since I do now realize that the potential spread of faith on a mobile unit can be quite powerful (I've primarily played with immobile pretenders, with high Dominion (6-8 minimum).

While it's entirely possible to do a potent pretender still, lowering it to 2 will be more or less the same as increasing the point cost. I'd even be willing to consider lowering it to 1, to put it on-par with other base human pretenders.

What would be the base cost of increasing Dominion from 2 to 4 and 1 to 4 respectively? I know it increases by 7 every time, but is that counting from 1 or from whatever base a pretender have?

Re: Hello everyone, and I could use some advice.
 

basic fixes: (balance and flavor)

- lower holy level to 4
- remove awe
- CERTAINLY remove fear (seeing the pope eye to eye doesn't bring fear in my heart)
- remove pillage (the pope pillaging ??)
- remove AoE weapon for something powerfull but not AoE

then a lil upgrade
- give MR 18
(else he'll be soul slay food)

Re: Hello everyone, and I could use some advice.
 

- Lowering holy level to 4 have already been covered and is a definite no-no for previously mentioned reasons.
- Removing BOTH fear and awe would leave the Ecclesiarch with only Immortality and a number of schtick flavour abilities. Second, you're confusing Pope John Paul II with.. let's say.. Innocent VIII - the pope that appointed Tomás de Torquemada, with a personal retinue of "interrogators" to boot. Facing that, you'd either be very, very stupid, struck with awe, or scared to your wit's end, depending on your orientation; I assure you.
- Pope pillaging? It's far more likely than you might think. Again, this isn't a pope, or I'd actually name him Pope. His text explains his position more fully. And of course, it's not he himself that goes into the village and takes everything not nailed to a wall - he's got a retinue, which is the idea behind both the pillaging and the patrols. I was actually going to add Gluttony for this reason. But there's not a command for that.
- I had completely missed that it had an area of effect. Consider it changed (I guess I just glanced at it and figured that AoE:1 simply meant that it wasn't.. you know.. AoE. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/fear.gif

Re: Hello everyone, and I could use some advice.
 

To add gluttony, use
#supplybonus -X
A negative value creates gluttony.

As for the mobile dominion-thing: Sometimes, you are just stuck before an enemy castle with lots of summons inside that repair the walls, or it's early game and the defenders have good tower weapons are heavy armor and you have not yet researched the counter-tactics.

In this cases you might want to dominion kill your enemy instead of taking his last fortress(es), once you have all provinces. A god in front of that castle is quite good for that allready, a level 6 inquisitor likewise, I'd guess.

Re: Hello everyone, and I could use some advice.
 

Oh, that's great. Awesome.
Update time. I lowered base Dominion to 2, gave him Fire Sling instead of Fire Flare (in light of the AoE-issue). It's got a much longer range, but much lower damage, accuracy, and no AoE. I also added Gluttony 14 (to account for the supposed retinue) and upped magic resistance to 16 - this would allow him to buff himself to 18-19 Magic Resistance if one goes for an Astral Bless strategy.

Edit: Also lowered HP to 16.
Edit2: I also added Encumbrance 2.

Re: Hello everyone, and I could use some advice.
 

I believe all the pretenders have MR 18 without exception, so you could just give him that.

Re: Hello everyone, and I could use some advice.
 

fear is really only for very very fearsome creatures just not for humans he really shouldn't have it. This person is only fearsome through what he commands and his armies etc (your example only clearifies this) but that is not what the fear thingie is about. All armies in this game would generally be considered a thing to fear really but that also is not how fear is in this game.

awe.. could be for humans and considering his "flavor" you could do it (I wouldn't though), if you insist on using it I'd not go higher than Awe +0 (only very magical and beautifull creature shoud have higher awe in dominions.)

Holy 4 is already VERY VERY high and hardly ever seen in the game so I'd really lower it to that.

as llama said MR 18 is standard for pretenders and sort of needed else it'll become magixd to death to fast.

Lowering his base dominion is not what I'd do, a very holy thingie pretender usually has high base dominions (I'd sooner get this higher instead of the holy 6)

for a holy person pillage really shouldn't be there in this game only the most wild or evil pplz have that, most pretenders are a bit neutral so you can RP each way.

healer 20 or 50 is a much more common and more logic choice for a holy man, though not for an iquisitor I must admit

I'd not use gluttony for his retinue but rather the command to summon like 5-10 units on battle start and a same option to get them via a regular summon command (seem fitting that he can convert pplz to become holy avengers/inquisitors or whatever) seems more thematic.

Ps standard human encumbrance is 3 not 2, 2 is only for barbarians and lion tribes, pplz living in the wilds running all day so having better stamina, your pretender doesn't seem to qualify.

The fire sling is a nice but IMHO not really a weapon for a pretender , maybe you should just mod a nice weapon, some sort of fire staff, or just have him throw fireballs. or undead repelling water (some commander has that and I've always thought it was a nice feature)

The immortality thing also doesn't seem to fit your description though (sorry) since you say a new one comes.. but if he's immortal he'd have all the old ones afflictions etc.

To solve that you could make an immobile pretender which can have the command to summon this unit (if you make it unique) it'd fit your description more.

Well good luck with it, pretty sure you didn't want to hear all this but whatever http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/laugh.gif

PS I don't think he's really overpowered though.

Re: Hello everyone, and I could use some advice.
 

Yeah, thanks a lot. I just noticed. I have no idea how I could've missed that.

So, this is how it stands right now, unless someone pulls something really drastic out of his behind. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif If all the others were drafts, then I guess this one is 1.00. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/laugh.gif
The Ecclesiarch Screencap

I think you are somewhat stuck in the, pardon my language but, "infantile" stage of assumption that fearsomness somehow equals uglyness or spouting horns, a tail and breathing flames. While undoubtly these things are scary in themselves, it's not necessarily what constitutes a fearsome effect. If it was, how do you explain THIS ? (Den lagerarbetande munken broder Truck). Yes, this character is decked out in a number of stars here, but if that's "also is not how fear is in this game", then how does it actually work? Clearly, my friar isn't spouting horns. He's simply become an imposing and generally badass person through his years of strife. He gives the impression that he's not only got the power to rip out your throat and shove it up your rear-end, but he also gives the impression that that's exactly what he's going to do.
I could go along with this. But fact still remains; He is a very magical and demanding figure. He can't be considered a "base" human anymore. For all intents and purposes, he is a vessel of a higher will or "possessed" by a spirit, be it through the same means of which empowered the Giant Idol pretender or the possession of the Oracle or the Fountain of Blood.
Yes, but it's already been settled. Twice. The very lowest he could possibly go is 5. The prospect of a prophet of 4 + 1 Priest Level is downright heresy to the flavour and fluff of the character basis. :p
Yes, yes. Duly noted. Why repeat it if Llama said it? Anyway, it was just me that didn't notice, for some reason, despite having 3 other pretenders in front of me at almost any given time. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...es/redface.gif
As noted.. what? Four times? Now, that's not an option. For balance reasons, his dominion had to be dropped, unfortunately. It does fit a bit, however, since while imposing, his range is limited. While a Titan's influence may spread far and wide due to a variety of circumstances, a human can only be seen and heard so far.
Good and Evil are viewpoints. I'm sure that the people "back home" don't mind my pillaging. You can choose to use it or not, if you want to maintain your neutrality. Just because he CAN pillage doesn't mean that he MUST. Patrol can just aswell be considered a purely good act - caring for your people, nurturing them and keeping them safe from harm. Yet you don't complain on part of the players that want to be "Evil".
Yeah, I considered healing, but I opted not to. I didn't want to make the list of bonuses too long and then have more or less all of them be very small. I'd rather have a smaller list of stronger "flavour" abilities.
I did consider that too. I decided not to, since it'd mean that a number of units simply went 'poof' after combat, be it militias or inquisitors. Gluttony was added to put an emphasis on the fact that he has a retinue, explaining why he's got Pillage, Patrol and, in part, Fortune Teller bonus.
Wow. Such good luck that he's not a standard human, then? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif As explained. Several times.
Really? If you could find the name of that weapon (undead-repelling water) I'd be eternally grateful. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/laugh.gif I've been trying really hard to find a fitting stock weapon for him. I'm not to keen on adding a quarterstaff or something like that since it wouldn't fit his fiery-hand-like attack animation.
The Immortality ability is just an ability in itself. What he's got isn't actual immortality, as explained in the text. The carrying-over of afflictions (should he ever accumulate any) is easily explained; The "guiding" pretender carries the afflictions with him across previous incarnations.
I like the idea, but then I'd end up with either two very powerful, basicly, Pretender-units, or one very impotent immobile pretender. Neither is very appealing. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...es/Injured.gif

Re: Hello everyone, and I could use some advice.
 

The latest version seems quite reasonable.

You should tweak the morale to 30. That's also a standard for pretenders, as well as many 'unbreakable' creatures.

Re: Hello everyone, and I could use some advice.
 

You are, of course, entirely correct.
For some reason, I had totally missed that too. Thanks. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...s/rolleyes.gif

Re: Hello everyone, and I could use some advice.
 

Very nice! I like the discussion and related ideas, too. It is very interesting the idea of pretenders who can generate units (especially with abilities a nation might lack without that pretender choice, such as inquisitors) and I like the idea of an immobile building that could generate the head-of-state too, except that'd probably require the player to self-limit himself from summoning many (unless you can take the unique unit ability from some unique existing unit or something).

I agree that the immortality can be explained by choosing the replacement based on his "stigmata" by people who believe he is a vessel for a holy spirit, that the story of each incarnation is significant, etc. Also if he dies outside dominion the Call God period can be construed as there were insufficient witnesses who are trusted enough in the faith that the old Ecclesiarch has truly fallen, or the details of the story haven't been confirmed speedily and consistently enough yet so there are still arguments about who should replace him, etc.

Re: Hello everyone, and I could use some advice.
 

The weapon is used by the renata and it's weapon 496 with effect 497. You'd need to mod it a bit though since it's not very powerfull I think and only 1 use.. but that should be easily changed or you could mod something similar our of nothing.

For the rest I completely disagree with what you consider flavor and better fitting flavor etc but it's your mod http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/laugh.gif

Re: Hello everyone, and I could use some advice.
 

Great points PvK!