The (not really) Official Endgame Summon Thread!
 

Thousands of years ago/shortly before the latest patch, there was a discussion thread regarding the nature of shattered soul for our good endgame friends, the tartarians. Inspired by the end of the thread, which became a discussion of summons to rival their use in the endgame. I think then, that it's only right that we should have a thread about exactly that. Let's talk about what would be super awesome to see as summons, national or otherwise, to, if not replace, then at least stand up to the venerable tartarian and give every nation a leg up in the end game instead of the astral/blood/death nations.

I suppose I should go first with the national summon I suggested in the original thread, an Awakened Rimtursar giant for the Neifelheim nation line. Although they don't really need any help as far as SCs go, it'd be nicely thematic to have them considering that they have the Illwinter global to herald the return of the Rimtursar, but no actual way to get their mitts on one of the giants themselves. I think it'd also be nicely thematic to give them sort of sub par stats, like possibly below human-level in all the numbers effected by cold power, but with a cold power of like 7 or 8 so that anyone wanted to use them effectively would need to have Illwinter up to keep those temperatures nice and low. Of course, with cold power like that, as long as they were in a cold-3 province, their stats would be completely insane and they'd have to have an enormous cold aura, so they'd kick all kinds of ***, making their use a careful temperature-related balancing act.

For Agartha, at least EA Agartha, I'd like to see a death summon to open up that seal that everyone's guarding and see what's back there. Considering all the umbrals hanging out around the seal, I'd imagine some kind of mega-umbral, but who knows. It'd be sort of nice if it was implied that it was casting this summon to weaken the seal and let loose whatever's back there that ultimately lead to the decline of the Pale Ones considering that the seal isn't mentioned in the descriptions of any unit of the later ages aside from the umbrals themselves. Also I think for LA Agartha a zombie Ageless Olm could make an exceptionally awesome summon.

Also, before anyone makes the brilliant point that anything here can easily be modded in, yes, that is very true, and any modder willing to take up the cause would be a hero to children everywhere.

Re: The (not really) Official Endgame Summon Threa
 

For EA Agartha, I think it would be cool if it were something like the Balrog from LOTR. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif That would be an incredibly cool summons to see, if not for them, than for Abysia perhaps.

Personally, I think there should be some powerful endgame summons available for every path, if not for every nation. Currently only a few nations are blessed with an abundance of potentially useful summons, leading to the S/D/B paradigm that we see today. It's true that there are -some- decent summons in other paths, but many are considered inferior, and too many are unique, which means they'll never be competitive against even 5-6 Tarts, let alone a dozen or more (even with Shattered Soul, sheer numbers tip the scales).

The only problem that I see, is that if a mod is developed, it's likely that it won't be widely adopted, even if it makes great strides in making more playstyles viable. Take CBM for example, I have tried it, and most of the changes are pretty awesome, as far as widening strategic viability. Yet, most games do not use it, so getting used to those options has no value in MP. In fact it could be argued that while content mods are great for making SP more fun, that they are detrimental to anyone who enjoys MP, as they teach you a different game.

The flip side of that, is that there is the remote chance, that if the summons were thought out well enough, and received widespread acceptance, IW might, MIGHT be persuaded to include them in the game, and that would be priceless indeed.


To be perfectly honest, I think IW could easily fill in the gaps by taking the pretenders as they exist, adding a couple magic paths (to most of them, not all), changing the descrip, and then making them available in the appropriate paths. Removing the conceptual and graphical phases of the creation, should relatively simplify the design of the spell/creature, and there is nothing implicitly unique about any of them really, the pretender is just a very ambitious individual. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...ies/tongue.gif

Re: The (not really) Official Endgame Summon Threa
 

Gandalf Parker advocated the notion that learning to play the game well included learning how to adapt to changes on the fly. He used to run randomized games where certain unit stats were given random values (maybe archers have Prot 18) and you don't discover this until you encounter some. I don't do this myself but that's partly because I'm still learning the basic game. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Some people like games which force you to make decisions under risk (i.e. you don't know whether you'll succeed but you know the probabilities), others like games where you make decisions under uncertainty (where you don't even know the probabilities). I find the latter category fun but nerve-wracking. It's like the first time you try out a new magic item or spell--will it be worthwhile and win you the battle or will it just get you killed? I've been surprised in both directions.

Note that intel-gathering on capabilities becomes much more important in Gandalf's chaos-style games. In that respect it resembles real life.

-Max

Re: The (not really) Official Endgame Summon Threa
 

Dragons in world mythology: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dragon
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...y_and_folklore (interesting uniques like Zirnitra, Fafnir, Ryujin, etc)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dragons_in_Greek_mythology
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_dragon
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_dragon

There's plenty of potential beyond the overpriced 1map move non-commander Tarrasque.

Re: The (not really) Official Endgame Summon Threa
 

Well adding more random or dynamic factors I'm sure could keep things interesting and add new challenge for hardcore veteran addicts.

But for those of us who haven't been playing since release, and don't have these algorithms plugged into our brain to allow us to accurately evaluate completely new units and capabilities on the fly, it would seem to just inspire confusion.....

Dominions is like some kind of crazy Rock < Paper < Scissors < Hammer < Burlap Sack < Machete < Wrecking Ball < Body Bag < Chainsaw..... kind of progression, and constantly adding or removing steps in that can ultimately lead to a newer player discovering more of the innate truths of the game, but it'll do nothing for helping them develop consistent results from a predetermined set of capabilities. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

My point being, that it seems most people consider it very risky, (bordering on suicidal) to play in MP without S/D/B access, so getting used to a mod that allows you to play most nations competitively without strong investment into those paths (and their associated schools), would make a less experienced player much weaker in vanilla MP games. Currently it's not so viable to really focus on the 1-2 paths that most nations start with very strong access to.


God I could just keep typing. What I mean to say is, I want to see more late game summons as viable alternatives to what is already available. I want them to be so compelling and strategically interesting, that they are included in all MP games. I also want a pony for Xmas.

Re: The (not really) Official Endgame Summon Threa
 

That's pretty much what this is all about. Having the only viable endgame options be A: Wishing for Seraphs, B: GoR-ing Tartarians, or C: Being Mictlan isn't much of an endgame in my opinion. Having this be fixed up via mod wouldn't exactly be ideal for exactly those reasons that JimMorrison said, someone gets used to playing with everything being viable and then strolls into an MP game wanting to play a nature-heavy nation and expects his thematic-high-nature-magic pretender to actually do something is going to get his head handed to him. The only reason I brought up modding this in is because it seems more likely that someone here would take the reigns on this than to actually get official support for such a thing. And who knows, maybe if the thread takes off and gets some cool ideas going on in it, we'll see some of the content show up in a later patch. Also ponies.

Incidentally, I'm really really surprised there isn't a Chinese dragon summon for Tien Chi. That could do a pretty fair job as an endgame summon for them, especially since Chinese dragons were supposed to have all kinds of wacky magical powers over stuff like the weather, which suggests air and water magic, two pretty solid paths for self-buffing.

Re: The (not really) Official Endgame Summon Threa
 

Dragons could be good I think. Pretenders dragons could be renamed Ancient Dragons, Dragons Kings or things like that to note their godlike status.

The same thing could be used for the cyclops with a cyclop king pretender and normal cyclops as summons.

The Roc and the Thunderbird could be nice Air themed summons.
Also the Lammasu (though I do not know the difference between a lammasu and a shedu).

What about karkadann from persian mythology ?

Re: The (not really) Official Endgame Summon Threa
 

Ah, great! I had meant to start exactly this thread up, maybe even today!

It would indeed be awesome if there were more late-game summons in the game. I think people have been aware of this for a while, but somehow only recently has it been vocalised.

If we do end up producing something awesome, I reckon it will find its way into MP games. I mean, I (or anyone else) can always start a game and say "this game will use this mod". Mostly you can still fill the game up. The early mod nation games filled up slowly, but more recent games including mod nations filled up just fine.

I think this idea of including pretenders as late-game summons is genius, since they are a ready-made source of powerful creatures, complete with graphics and a mythological backstory. On the other hand they are mainly big human-shaped things, so it would be interesting to have some more variety (for example in the other thread I know someone was talking about treemen - I would feel like a treeman summon was more thematic than a Lord of the Wild or other nature pretender).

We don't actually need very many to make a very big difference I think.

Re: The (not really) Official Endgame Summon Threa
 

Actually, it is a trap to think in this way. Dominions has such a huge number of units and spells that its really not possible to learn them all. Sure, you need to build a base of experience in a static environment. But the skills you should be building are unit evaluation, rather than rote memorization. If you do that, then it doesnt matter what mods your game has.

Re: The (not really) Official Endgame Summon Threa
 

Okay, I have been looking at pretenders. Here is a list of pretenders which I think might be reasonable, to a greater or lesser extent, to use as a summon:

Wyrm
Lord of the Desert Sun/Summer Plague
Titan/Titaness
Asynja
Divine Serpent
Lady of Springs
Manticore
Cyclops
Dragons
Dracolich
Nataraja/Destroyer of Worlds
Scorpion King
Son of the Sea
Ancient Kraken
Old Man of the Sea
Lord of the Waves
Nerid
Lord of the Sky/Son of the Heavens
Ageless Olm

Some will need some changes to their descriptions and so on, but none of these are truly unique (most of the human ones are described like "The so-and-so is a demigod born from a river" which I would think there could be several of). So I think all of these are at least possibles. Some, though, feel somehow wrong. To me a Wyrm is very much a pretender, and shouldn't be summonable. Can't say why I feel that more about a Wyrm than a dragon though.

I'm still really interested in any new ideas people have for late game monsters though. Personally I'm drawing a creative blank right now. I may be able to do graphics if I can find time, for a small number of original ideas at least.

Re: The (not really) Official Endgame Summon Threa
 

My take is that there should be something at Conjuration 9 for each path.

Or perhaps a generic "Summon Dragon" that can be cast by any level 9 caster no matter what the path--it's just what you get will be based on whatever path(s) the caster has.

Re: The (not really) Official Endgame Summon Threa
 

For dragons I had the idea of a spell summoning a dragon egg, then you'll have to shapechange it each turn during a five or six turns, to end with an adult dragon -with young dragon forms before the last one- (the only problem is : with actual mod commands the egg would be able to shapechange each round of combat).

Re: The (not really) Official Endgame Summon Threa
 

I fully agree. But one must learn how to dance one step at a time. Perfecting certain basic moves is essential to having the background to accurately plan off of highly unexpected circumstances. It is one thing to end up with a different gem balance than you are used to, quite another to suddenly have 18 Prot archers. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif


Anyways, let's see what I can do for ideas -

Balrog - E/F - demon, flying, fear, heat aura
Ettin - E - Ambi, extra head slot
Cockatrice - E/F - Petrify, flying
Treant - N - mobile treelord, summon ally: vine ogre
Sasquatch - A/N - trample, cold aura
Olm - W/E - mind blast, enslave mind
Gorgon - E/N - (really, just like the pretender)
Void Hunter - S - similar to Void Lord, alternative to Wish
Shishi - A - flying, standard, lightning
Celestial Master - A/S - samurai or monk, draw from Raiden from MK


I'll think of more later, I need to go for awhile. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...ies/tongue.gif

Re: The (not really) Official Endgame Summon Threa
 

Before I run, that's a good start Llama, I like it. For some reason though, I'd have to disagree on the wyrm. To me, it almost seems as if it more belongs as a summon, and LESS as a pretender. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...ies/tongue.gif Somehow a being that lacks magic (of course, most people put SOMETHING on their wyrm, for buffs anyhow), doesn't seem very awe inspiring or worship-worthy. If the wyrm and the coatl traded places, it would make plenty of sense. But, just making the wyrm into a summons (and letting it stay as a pretender option) would be fine also. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/laugh.gif

Re: The (not really) Official Endgame Summon Threa
 

I doubt the Nataraja or Destroyer of Worlds should be summonable because they're based off of specific hindu gods (forget which ones though, I think the one with the severed head and all the anti demon weapons is based on Kali, although nobody should quote me on that) and the various "Lord/Son of ..." titans probably wouldn't make for good summons unless a given player were to rationalize summoning other gods to help him out as building up a pantheon (there's a thought, instead of just pretender god vs. pretender god, it's pretender pantheon vs. pretender pantheon). The other assorted monstrous pretender types would definitely make for solid endgame summons though. I'd still like to see a lot of nation specific summons as well as more general one though, although that's me.

Just a thought, despite the fact that it changes nothing about how awesome blood magic is for the endgame, I'd like to see LA Marignon get some national blood summons for more specifically Christian demons. I mean, it gets all those sweet angelic summons for the middle era, so it's firmly a Christian-inspired nation, and yet it's got nothing specifically Christian for its horrifyingly corrupt late era except for the angels which still hang around for some reason despite the whole nation being based entirely on how much it loves to sacrifice virgins and torture people. I suppose the vast majority of blood summons are already pretty well based on Christian mythology, but there have to be at least a few demons, specific individuals or otherwise, just waiting to be turned into summonable minions.

Also yet more ideas, Machacka is supposed to have a dead god sleeping in their mountain, right? Well I think by the time endgame magics start getting tossed around, it's high time they woke his *** up. Also, just so they can have more than one endgame monster running around, how about size 6 divine spiders with an awe or fear aura that just bust all kinds of heads in.

And for Pangaea, I think carrion summons are awesome, and also things like the carrion dragon are cool as hell, so why not push the carrion-related envelope. Having a really high level summon that just calls up a carrion tartarian would be wacky as hell and pretty much the best thing. Failing that, any unit's carrion equivalent would be fun to play around with.

Re: The (not really) Official Endgame Summon Threa
 

I'm seeing a lot of monster-type summons in the list you all are putting out. While I definitely like my monsters, you have to keep in mind that monster-type commanders are not nearly as useful as titan-type commanders in the late game due to the difference in slots. If you are trying to balance out the endgame SCs, you might want to concentrate on units that have all (or most) slots.

Re: The (not really) Official Endgame Summon Threa
 

Monsters can be great, they just have to be cheap, mobile, and commanders so they can serve as raiders. They won't hold up against a titan, but if you can get 4 dragons for 1 geared out titan that seems pretty reasonable.

Re: The (not really) Official Endgame Summon Threa
 

Death: Grim Reaper, stealthy, autocasts Wind of Death before every battle. Has a magical scythe with okay stats + cause decay.

And... that's all I've got today, besides reminding you of the oft-mentioned Hecatonchires. Honestly it's hard to come up with new summons that aren't pretenders because KO knows so much more mythology than I do. I'd suggest Lovecraft but to be honest I'm not even totally sure what Shoggoths are.

-Max

Re: The (not really) Official Endgame Summon Threa
 

It should be fairly straight forward to do a mod with a couple of late end (Summon 8 or 9) Titan & Dragon type chassis for Nature, Fire, Water, Air and possibly Earth.

I think the really good restricted Pretenders like the Gorgan should not be used. Leave them for wishes or their powers. I would make sure most have limited 'special' powers. Just some resistances - the Air ones being shock resistant perhaps. Rather than stack them up with fear and awe etc.

They just need a small number of magic paths with the Titan types either costing more (or being at 9 and the Dragon types at 8?) or require very high caster levels. They don't need to be as cheap as tartarians or compete with the Angels.

Re: The (not really) Official Endgame Summon Threa
 

Shoggoths are already in the game -- think Othernesses. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/laugh.gif

Not sure that I'd agree that every path requires a super-summon. The problem is to balance nations, not to balance paths; if one nation has a very strong early game with cheap F9W9 but cap-only sacreds, and another comes into its prime during late-game due to summons et al, and another is best suited towards lavish but expensive scales for cranking out high-quality conventional armies during a good midgame -- that seems reasonable. No need for mirror-image balance.

Re: The (not really) Official Endgame Summon Threa
 

I very much agree with this, it's fundamental to the Dominions design philosophy. So each path should have a different feel and speciality.

It would, however, be nice if every path had at least some approach to the end game. Some paths just fizzle out (water and fire spring to mind), and if you hope to win a long game with a nation specialising in them you have to diversify to death or something. That's what we want to be fixing.

Re: The (not really) Official Endgame Summon Threa
 

My sandworm from the nomads and genies mod http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/laugh.gif I think it is a pretty nice end game beastie.

Beholders could do all kind of stuff, I couldn't see them as on par with tarts or seraphs I must admit but a bit less strong options wouldn't be that bad either.

wyrm based amphibious creatures wouldn't be bad either (midgard serpent like)

Son of Fenrir like beasties (or other large beasties) could be an option

ow and my favorite.. a DECENT SC phoenix summon (the pretender kinda... ehm sucks???)

Hydra mage summon would be nice too (commander and some item slots)

Re: The (not really) Official Endgame Summon Threa
 

Another problem (which actually makes Dominions more charming than other games) is that the game really steers away from stereotypical fantasy. I'm sure everyone has noticed that none of the Norse inspired nations have dwarves, because dwarves and elves are totally overdone from a fantasy perspective. I suspect that's also why there aren't as many dragons in the game as there could be.

I also think "fantasy" fantasy creatures (those with no mythological basis) are not in the game simply because they are out of scope. But I guess they'd be fine for brainstorming purposes. So here we go:

Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse
Dragon King Zahhak (From the Iranian national epic Shahnameh)
Wendigo (someone else mentioned Sasquatch, basically the same)
Giant Spider (Shelob from LoTR, Anansi, etc.)
Basilisk/Cockatrice/Manticore/Chimera (These are somewhat covered by the Cross Breeding spell)
Sandworm (From Dune)
Grendel and Mother (although they have no physical description in the poem)
Cerberus/Garm (Giant Dog or Underworld guardian figure)
Leviathan/Behemoth/Ziz (I know they're already in the game, but these are supposed to be end of the world type creatures)

Apologies if I copied anyone! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Re: The (not really) Official Endgame Summon Threa
 

Let's rename the Ziz spell "False Ziz" and then make a *real* Titan-sized immortal Ziz with A4 and Str 25.

Edit: oh yeah! Don't forget three-bodied Geryon. Basically a giant with a whole bunch of slots.

-Max

Re: The (not really) Official Endgame Summon Threa
 

Hard to beat a Hecatonchire's 100 hand slots. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

Re: The (not really) Official Endgame Summon Threa
 

Responses to jim's suggestions:

Balrog - E/F - demon, flying, fear, heat aura

I guess demons are pretty well covered already by blood though. Not sure we should be adding more demons unless there's a specific reason to.

Ettin - E - Ambi, extra head slot
Cockatrice - E/F - Petrify, flying

These are cool, but already covered by cross breeding. Maybe we could make different versions of them.

Treant - N - mobile treelord, summon ally: vine ogre

I'm quite keen on this one. Graphics will be tricky, but doable.

Sasquatch - A/N - trample, cold aura

Is that just a yeti?

Olm - W/E - mind blast, enslave mind

Nice.

Gorgon - E/N - (really, just like the pretender)

Maybe best kept as a pretender? Just thinking it is quite unique and powerful.

Shishi - A - flying, standard, lightning

What's one of these then? I can only find references to stone lions.

Much of sector24's mythology is beyond me (although this is exactly the kind of thing which will make for a good mod).

Cerberus sounds interesting. Would he be unique? Hard to imagine a dog big enough to be useful, even if he does have three heads.

I like the sound of a Ziz, even though I'm not clear what they are. False-Zizing the Ziz and Zizzing a new Ziz sounds ideal.

Like sector24 I personally am not so keen on adding non-mythological creatures like the beholder or sandworm, being as this is an addition to the (mythological) base game rather than a mod nation. As part of a mod nation those things are obviously pretty cool. Of course this is just a matter of personal taste.

Re: The (not really) Official Endgame Summon Threa
 

Ziz is "the" giant bird at the end of the world in Christian mythology, to go along with Behemoth on land and Leviathan in the Mediterranean. God will slay these creatures so that the righteous will have food and clothing and tents, and possibly giant foam (leather) #1 fingers. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

Actually, I believe Ziz comes from the Gnostic tradition and therefore it isn't in the Bible. But the more obscure the creature, the cooler it is to have in the game.

Cerberus allows the shades of mortals to enter Hades, but never to leave. I would imagine him as creature with 3 bite attacks that do 3x damage to undead, probably with 2 misc slots. Is there such a thing as undead-awe? That would be a great ability.

Re: The (not really) Official Endgame Summon Threa
 

I, for one, would rather see the game become *less* about endgame summons.

Decrease the importance, emphasize thematic elements, and better balance... not as easy as a quick patch

Re: The (not really) Official Endgame Summon Threa
 

Ahh, I am back, and fed! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/laugh.gif


- Balrog: Well I only labelled it as a demon, because I am under the impression it is often thought of as one. Honestly, it would be just as well to drop the tag and let it be its own thing.

- Gorgon: I will fight for this one to the end. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...ies/tongue.gif There were many gorgon (gorgii..?) though only one was "famous".

- Ettin/Cockatrice: I've never had great success with crossbreeding, you can actually get such things? I'm at a loss here.

- Sasquatch: Well yes, it's the western hemisphere version of the same idea as the Yeti. I was thinking bigger, and meaner though, like giant sized, rather than "big man" sized.

- Shishi: It is in fact the creature embodied by those lion statues. In D&D (if you ever played), it was called a Foo Creature, very powerful air spirit, sometimes portrayed with a long flowing body like a furry Chinese dragon/lion thing. I was in such a hurry though, it should have Awe on it.

- You could look at Cerberus as "just a dog", but it would be "just a dog" with fire and death magic most likely, and probably size 4. I would have it protected by barghest or hellhounds in combat.

- The Four Horsemen: ... Sector24, I love you. Even if they weren't quite as tough as a Seraph (how could they not? 4 of them will destroy the world.....), they would be so cool to summon. Only sad part being, there's not really anywhere to put them but in Death, or Blood.

- Sandworm: Arakkian sandworms would be HILARIOUS. Give it flight and trampling, to simulate it bursting up from the ground and swallowing people, SO cool.

- Grendel: Forgive me my poor literary exposure, but I've not read Beowulf. However, if the film (it was silly, I know) has ANY grounding in the original work whatsoever, then we'd at least know that Grendel is a hulking and deformed brute, and his mother is some sort of a water demon? Grendel may be hard to conceptualize, but "water demon" leaves something to work with, especially if we go the same route as with the Balrog, and consider her demon-like, but not an actual demon, and summoned through water rather than blood.



Kirin - A/N(or N/S) - Chinese unicorn/dragon sort of thing, recuperate, healing

Chupacabre - ?? - Oh come ON, just say yes, don't overanalyze it.


Hmmm, I'm tapped for the moment, but I think later I will go through the pretender selections a little more exhaustively..... As far as having more humanoid summons, it's really VERY hard to find "myths" of supernatural beings that aren't ultimately described simply as some type of demon, or angel. At least, if they are to be "end game" type of power, else the lesser types have by and large already been covered, ie satyrs and dryads and such.

Re: The (not really) Official Endgame Summon Threa
 

Concerning Gorgons, here's the short version from Wikipedia:

Around 700 BC, Hesiod (Theogony, Shield of Heracles) increases the number of Gorgons to three—Stheno (the mighty), Euryale (the far-springer), and Medusa (the queen), and makes them the daughters of the sea-god Phorcys and of Keto.

So it would have to be like the elemental kings where you only get a maximum of two; but Euryale and Stheno are immortal unlike Medusa.

Concerning Grendel, he was immune to weapons, so Beowulf grappled him and ripped his arm off. Grendel ran off to his mother to die from his wound. All we can divine from that is Grendel was humanoid (meaning most or all of his equipment slots!). Grendel's mother did live in a lake, and Beowulf's magical armor protected him from her attacks, so she tried to drown him by dragging him to the bottom. However, no description is given so she could literally be anything.

Re: The (not really) Official Endgame Summon Threa
 

Well if you want to get right down to it, Grendel (and his mother) were descendants of the biblical Cain, so it could conceivably be awesome as hell to have Cain himself show up as a unique summon. Just imagine it, some guy with immortality strolling around beating the holy hell out of things much, much bigger than himself by virtue of his Blood Vengance +7 ability because of course, any harm inflicted upon his head will avenged sevenfold thanks to a curse placed upon him by God for murdering his brother.

Grendel himself of course was just a big nasty monster that couldn't be harmed by weaponry and lived in an underwater grotto, which suggests something big (size 3 or 4) amphibian monster with full human slots, high strength and high protection. Certainly summoning it through water would be doable considering that it was a natural, albeit magical, monster rather than a demon.

Also yes to chupacabre, I think it'd be pretty fantastic to dip into more modern supernatural myths rather than keeping strictly to epic fantasy. Imagine your herds of chuacabre causing unrest by virtue of the fact that they get bored hanging around in the garrisons all day and wander off to eat some goats, imagine a summon based on the Jersey Devil or some of the mythology surrounding the salem witch trial and 16-17th century superstitions surrounding witchcraft. Imagine a summon based on Spring-Heeled Jack (seriously, look him up on wikipedia, he's awesome).

Re: The (not really) Official Endgame Summon Threa
 

If a size 6 Tartarian Monstrum can wear a helm than many other monster-types can be given head slot(s). Monster-types can also be given up to 4 misc slots, magical paths and good base equipment/stats/abilities at an attractive price. There are plenty of variables to adjust so they can compete.

EA Vanheim & MA Vanheim have "dwarven smiths".
EA Helheim has svartalfs (referred to as "sinister dwarves" in the game).

The ghost, skeleton and some others are very stereotypical. Dominions3 simply includes atypical fantasy from mythology as well. Since Dominions3 takes ideas from mythology worldwide it's not surprising the developers didn't get everything in, like elves (unless you consider svartálfs to be svartálfars http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif).

Re: The (not really) Official Endgame Summon Threa
 

Water/Earth, Construction 9 or Enchantment 8. Something equal to Machaka-only pretender Colossal Fetisch in stats, but it regenerates like the Claymen.


Or just size 4 Mechanical Man with 40 hp. Enc 0, full immunities, mindless, inanimate, mr at least 12. Weaknesses include being inanimate (Smasher) and magic being (Elf Bane) as well as armor-negating non-elemental damage. It also has no magic, so it can't self-buff, but with full immunities from the start I'm not sure if it needs anything.


Seasonal spirits. Every element can summon one. I think they'd be most easily covered by huge monsters. There's Winter Wolves, and then there's Son of Fenrer. They aren't limited by number, only by cost. Conjuration 9, level 6 in the path, 100 gems. Come with several suitable lesser creatures, like winter wolves, summer lions, green lions, spring hawks/rocs/ziz, whatever. I might do a quick mod, this is pretty simple stuff.


Nature: Look at Kithaironic Lion. 6 gems for 48 hp, prot 18, enc 1, mr 13, att 14, base def probably 12. Give it human slots, Caveman sprite and rename it Kithaironic Man and double the cost. It comes armed with a Great Club, has a bonus Great Fist attack that does few points of armor-piercing stun damage (str no added), and starts with Kithaironic Pelt, prot 10 no-slot armor, and has 50% cold and fire resist. Conjuration 8, probably, and Nature 5 I think. It's like Awaken Sleeper, but the sleeper is much older.
The Sleeper should be boosted slightly, as well. 36 hp instead of 26, enc 1 instead of 3, mapmove 4 instead of 2, and add forestsurvival, rejuvenation and sailing. Perhaps change the armor and shield into something slightly magical, like Silver Hauberk and Shield of Valor, and give him #onebattlespell Air Shield.

Or something like that.

EDIT:
Yeah, I had something like that in mind for the seasonal spirits. 3 misc slots, no head slots, come with lots of lesser creatures, and have 7 to 9 picks in magic, total.

Re: The (not really) Official Endgame Summon Threa
 

I did read just the first page now, I will have to read rest later http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

But what we really need is:
- much more universal SC and thug summons for paths exccept death, especially nature should get something
- that mod should be expanding addon of CBM which makes normal summons better and changes some old ones
- summons should rather be expansion of what magic school is
- we also need much much more national summons, they should really make end-game different
- we need to make an increase in spell limit etc in next patch, our new moderators should do that http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif I think with current one we'd get into problem with onebattlespell etc

llamabeast:

Yep, I was writing about treelords in conceptual content thread. But that looks like ages from being done and Better Summons Mod seems to have more attention here. Copy of my general idea:


I would like to see about 5 levels of treelors, at 10N, 20N, 30N, 40N, 50N [all non-unique] + couple unique ones at 50-75N. Unique ones could be those that we have now but with really big buffs. Maybe with ability to use Faery Trod for free, while still being immobile...
All of them would need a lot of HP, big regen, nice reinvigoration, decent MR. On higher levels they could also get other magic picks [e.x. Swamp Treelord with water and death].
The only problem is that you wouldn't be able to set them to patrol outside fort. I guess there is no way to go around that, so price for immobiles should also reflect that.

They could surely make use of 'forest shape' mod command.

Re: The (not really) Official Endgame Summon Threa
 

I tried modding my suggestions, but using Seasonal Spirits and CB together leaves them without magic. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/frown.gif

Any suggestions for the great bear spirit of autumn? He'll be E4N3D2 at least, 200 hp, ethereal, prot 30, regen 20 and will heal his afflictions. And fallpower 50, so that his hp fluctuate between 100 and 400. I think he's the weakest one of the four because he doesn't have any AoE effects, damage shields or weapons, and the others summon better helpers. Would trample and 20 AP be enough to keep the bear competitive in the late game? I could give it some reinvigoration as well, if necessary, and it will have magical claws and bite to use against anything too big to trample.
The other ability I've been considering is huge fear aura, and an undead secondshape to protect him from soul slay. It'd link well to the Finnish peijaiset ritual, but also mean that he coudln't handle chaff alone.

Re: The (not really) Official Endgame Summon Threa
 

That sounds suspiciously like the bug that surfaced in the latest patch giving issues with mod nations. Try activating your mods in a different order, that worked for some people. You can find a discussion of that bug in pages 130-131 of the bug thread.

Re: The (not really) Official Endgame Summon Threa
 

I know about that. I think it's "just" memory allocation problem. There's only so much space reserved for magic paths, and now it's starting to run out.

I doubt changing the order of mods really fixes anything. At most, it will change the order the magic is allocated in, and affect different creatures.

The log file gives warning when the paths don't show up, but I don't know what this means:
***** Warning: out of spellab

Re: The (not really) Official Endgame Summon Threa
 

Considering the king-with-snakes from Shahname - he is already in the game as Pretender with exactly the same snakes growing from his shoulders (called Lord of Snakes or somesuch). Shiva, etc. is also already in the game, though these summons are limited to India-based nations... And certainly Balrog-like creatures are plentiful enough (and it's not "thought of as demon" - that's his author's own words)! The (almost the) same goes for 4 Horsemen: they should be Death and it already has Tratarians... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/frown.gif
Dragons would be very good, with Western-type ones having stats like those of Pretender dragons & only 1-2 Paths, & Oriental ones having different pictures, slightly worse stats & better magic (including Astral). Possibly Seasonal Power & certainly limit to China/Japan mythology-using nations.
Great Bear I've made as Pretender for my Bogarus-splitting mod. Fortunately the graphics were already here. I didn't make him trampler, but have given him 2 Paw Slap attacks having aoe 1 instead. I think it would be more in style of real bears... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif
Cerberus probably shouldn't be very large, but should have plenty of attacks, including some magical ones (I'd think 3 dog-head bites, 1 dragon-head which it had instead of tail, plus some Hydra-style as it had snakes instead of fur on his shoulders), plus immunity to undead attacks (various drains - don't know whether it's possible to do without making it undead), Dark Power - it became weaker under daylight, and certainly Patrol bonus!
Another possibilty is to continue the line of trolls - make a spell to specifically summon troll Moose Knights & someone Bogus-like...
Considering monster Pretenders I wouldn't put too much hope in them: their use is based, I think, mainly on Fear/Awe combo, with Awe provided by high Dominion. As actual monsters they would be too weak without such Awe (and there are no misc-slot items to grant such iirc) & extra hp granted by Dominion level...
Considering Sleeper I agree that he should be boosted - probably getting something like Hall of Fame ability(s) for free? After all, he's considered to have much experience... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif
I also agree that while Niefelheim has no real SC-gaining problem, they (and probably other Norse nations?) should have an ability to summon Rimtursar! And an idea that Greek-based nations should (at least at EA) have an ability to summon legendary Greek heroes was voiced recently... And just a thought: background of Man's Witches and Wardens says that Wardens are magically transformed by Witches to become stronger, etc. Maybe Man's Witches should have an appropriate spell which either summons Wardens or transforms normal infantry (?) into such? Similar transformation should be useful for other nations too - and is more appropriate for Nature magic than summons of unnatural creatures. The only possibility for this I think would be were-creatures: either some Werebear/Wereboar/Weretiger - stronger than existing Werewolf so better thug candidates (possibly not for every nation), or lycantrope which is also a mage of some skill so can self-buff (or both). I would also include some dinosaurs, but they probably should be resricted to C'tis...

Re: The (not really) Official Endgame Summon Threa
 

Wrana:

Use some text formatting http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

I think that here we are only discussing NEW summons, leaving improving current ones to CBM mod. And we surely need as many national summons as possible. That is really bad that some nations have them while others don't.

It would be also cool to have mod command for setting if set unit is wishable or not.

Re: The (not really) Official Endgame Summon Threa
 

I had been thinking to suggest dinosaurs (or something modeled after them) but wasn't sure how it would be received. Anklyosaurs, Triceratops, Allosaurs in mid game, and Tyrannosaurs for the late game, could be really fun.

To make up for their lack of magic, they could have high prot (very thick skin), multiple strong attacks, and the spell could describe that due to their nature, when they are summoned they are also enslaved, making them mindless with a 50 morale. Or perhaps the mid game dinos would just be "unruly", so they'd be trained like the predator lizards, and just be 15 morale or so, but big Rex hs to be Slave Collared. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...ies/tongue.gif

Does Slave Collar counteract insanity? Some of the more fantastic creatures could be summoned with high insanity or Shattered Soul if so, and you'd have to collar them immediately to retain control. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/laugh.gif

Re: The (not really) Official Endgame Summon Threa
 

I am currently working on Grendel, and (inspired by talks of Ziz) a Roc. Thanks to those who made those suggestions, I am having fun.

Re: The (not really) Official Endgame Summon Threa
 

Army Ant Queen - N - size 6, trample, poison cloud, fear, very high prot, summon ally: army ants (I'd say 3-4 per turn, 20hp, 20prot, PR 100%)

Vermin - N/E - An ancient hermit who has been transformed into a tool of vengeance by an angry forest. - stats similar to Skratti, N4/E4/D4, shapeshift to army ant http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...ies/tongue.gif (with increased stats, this guy should be a beast when transformed), automatic Creeping Death in combat

Re: The (not really) Official Endgame Summon Threa
 

I'm dubious about that Prot 20 on an ethereal being. You've giving him E4--shouldn't he have to buff himself up to Prot 20/25 with spells? I should think even a super-large bear with really thick skin would only have Prot 12 or so.

What's the thematic reason behind D2? I like it in a way because it lets him get reinvig via Soul Vortex, but I'd like a thematic justification.

-Max

Re: The (not really) Official Endgame Summon Threa
 

Because fall represents the beginning of decay...? Maybe. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...ies/tongue.gif

Though I'd think that ethereal and regen 20 would really make him pretty awesome even with lower prot, especially given self buffing ability.

A question on seasonal power though, I thought it only gave a bonus? It's been some time since I played T'ien Chi but I was positive they had normal hp for the 3 seasons that they weren't boosted.

Re: The (not really) Official Endgame Summon Threa
 

A thought on the four horsemen:

Make 4 separate summoning spells, each gets one horseman. Each requires a different path so it's *NOT* easy to get all 4.

Individually they are not all that impressive. However, get all 4 in a province and cast a 5th spell on them and you get a *VERY* good unit. (Note that the combined unit would *NOT* be wishable.)

Some ideas on the powers of the combined unit:

It would be a very good melee combatant.

Does not eat but gluttony 1000.

Spreads a deadly disease (like that disease demon), every battle round it has an autocast battlefield-wide enchantment that has a good chance of giving a bad disease to affected units. (The fused unit is immune.) Anyone hit by it or who hits it automatically is affected, they get no MR roll. Every turn of battle would cause them to take damage the same as the passage of a month.

An autocast battlefield-wide death attack of some kind.


Perhaps the fused unit would become uncontrollable after a while or perhaps even the next turn.

Re: The (not really) Official Endgame Summon Threa
 

I don't know what else to give him. Blood is useless if you only get it that late, and if you got it earlier you empowered as high as you need already. Astral makes them vulnerable to Magic Duel. Water and Air are already available on all three others via at least randoms. It's Death or Fire. Earth/Nature/Fire would also work, but Earth/Fire is almost as closely linked as Earth/Nature. Perhaps I should just give everyone a linked elemental random 2, but that still leaves the Earth summon least magically powerful.

As far as the thematics go, I have some kind of of evil "autumn kills summer, winter tries to make sure the dead stay asleep, spring is necromantic rebirth, summer is all poison and acid and melting corpses" theme going on. Thunderbird is Air/Death size 6 Spring Hawk with undead secondshape and several Great Eagles who transform into Ziz on death. Sun of Vitriol is basically Summer Lion + Green Lion + Poison Aura 20 + Fire Shield 10 with Fire/Water for acid spells, Great White Wolf has chill 19 and starts with several winter wolves and has prot 12 + ice armor + minor Air, which gives him buffs and Cloud Trapeze. I think I'll also give him ability to kill off undead somehow. Oh, and I mean to make them all cast Living X on the start of battle automatically, in addition to the other creatures they summon.

Re: The (not really) Official Endgame Summon Threa
 

Hmmm. Well, if you give everybody 9 magic paths they will be more magically powerful than Chayot and on par with Seraphim, and far above most Wished pretenders. I may tone it down a bit in my games. E4N3 is plenty competitive in my book, since 4 is "high end" magic for national mages.

-Max

Re: The (not really) Official Endgame Summon Threa
 

9 paths does seem extreme, but I guess Endo's idea is that they are all uniques, and at 200 gems apiece definitely not cheap.

Fear the Grendelkin!
 

See the attached pic.

Comments very welcome. I'm thinking he will be a water/earth summon (coming, as he does, from watery caves). Also having him be cross-path should make him a little rarer - we don't want grendelkin running around all over the place.

Re: Fear the Grendelkin!
 

Pretty sweet. Maybe something could be done to jazz up his melee a bit? I mean I guess he does hit like a truck..... "Claw" just seems so uninteresting. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...ies/tongue.gif

Also, perhaps he should get some natural reinvig, and maybe be amphibious, or poor amphibian at least?